It is great fun to step aside and enjoy another instrument. I often play 5 string banjo at a bluegrass session and switch over to bass fiddle when the bassist wants a break-it's a different feel and lood at the music.
I wasn't being facetious - why does anyone pick any instument? It seems self evident to me, not to mention extremely simple and straightforward, but apparently it isn;t.
To reiterate a point I made and got flamed on the other day. . . given that all the musicians were equally competent, would you rather hear a session with nine fiddlers or eight fiddlers and a guitarist? a lot of the time (Not all the time, mind you) many people would legitimately opt for the second option.
As a melody player at a session, you have the freedom to create a set tunes, but once you start, you have only limited creative possiblities within the tunes themselves, you normally have to stick to the melody line or things start getting muddied up.
As a part time backer, especially after having played night after night of melody, a whole new world of creative possibilities opens up. If you know what you're doing, you can mess around with voicings of chords, see which chords you can substitute, see how what you vary harmonically can put the tune in a completely different light.
Then there's the rhythmical aspect, whether you play the standard offbeat style, a 3-3-2 shuffle, half time or one of those Lunasa thingys.
It's kind of like having a fine paintbrush as a melody player with only one or two colors where you can draw details, while as a backer, you have a thick brush with a large palette that you use to set moods.
I must admit though that as a fiddler who plays DADGAD guitar as a second instrument, I probably would feel that I'm missing something if I were only able to play guitar.
Really, Jim, we all want to wear tight leather britches and be rock stars!
Bliss, I think it has to do with the need to re-arrange the brain every now and again. Fiddling is soooo diddley sometimes. Picking up a different instrument gives me a chance to think of a tune differently. Guitar is such a rhythm trip; I can't play one worth a hoot, but I can see the attraction.
I like the different sound, and challenges, of different instruments. Accompaniment has its advantages, as Bleedin Heart has pointed out, since accompanying offers more room for improvisation than melody in this type of music.The guitar is my main instrument, and it is fun accompanying, but sometimes I like to play melody, and since I have always played guitar as an accompanying instrument, I am not too adept at playing melodies on it. I like the sound of the tin whistle, and enjoy playing it on those few dozen tunes I have mastered on the instrument. I have always liked the accordion, and almost no one else around me was playing it, so I took it up a few years ago, and am making steady progress. And recently I brought out the harmonica at a session and it was well received, so I am exploring that. As I have played harmonica longer than any of the other instruments listed above, and it can be played one handed and thus during my commute to work, this has been quite fun, and I have been progressing pretty quickly in the number of tunes I have mastered.
So far I agree with Wormdiet, it does seem obvious, does it not?
I also believe those who said about guitar players being "cool", it's always the guitarist who attracts glances and advances, well from the average punter at any rate.
I thank Jim for defending me.
However the last sentence in the thread was the clue. "Those less insightful than me".
This site contains some people, male and female, who cannot understand why a melody player would want to accompany. Just cannot get their heads around the concept, just don't understand it, and won't even try.
I was hoping to garner a response from such people.
Yeah, I'm with Worm & Button on this one. I sometimes need to take two or three instruments to a session when I know there will be a lack of melody instruments & I play different instruments because I enjoy working out & then listening to how the different instruments have to interpret the same tune in a different way - yes, basically because I enjoy it.
I can't see for the life of me, how anyone could interpret Worm's 1st reply as insulting, Jim.
He simply answered it honestly, & without waffle, & then baited the thread, I assume to encourage more folks to respond.
Jolly descent of him, I thought!
I am curious myself, to know why some folks here seem to have a major problem with other musicians taking more than one instrument to a session.
Surely it can't be envy, as we all know how easy it is to learn a 2nd instrument once you have made a pretty good stab at a first.
So what is it bb that upsets you so about this practice, that makes you feel the urge to 'thread it'?
Jim, yer on. If you spot me the airfare, I'll humbly apologize profusely, and obtusely, in public, and provide you with rounds for the duration of evening. I won't even bring my guitar.
I think there are just a few good reasons not to bring too many instruments, but neither of them revolve around the melody/rhythm divide.
1) In a tight location, will a big secondary instrument really add enough to justify the space?
2) If the person in question dilletantishly plays poorly on everything and won;t put in the time to get competent on one instrument. I have never actually seen this happen except in the case of the dual action egg/goat smackers.
I don't think Blisster is upset, but his observations at that session contradict the impressions he's gained from people in here. Am I right... Blisster?
I've joined this discussion late but, for once, I thought BB had a good point. However, he states that these musicians were good players and would have known all the tunes. So, it appears that they were playing guitar or bodhran because they were genuinely interested and wishing to expand their horizons a little(You can argue whether or not this is possible, if you wish). I don't see anything wrong with this. What I don't understand is why melody players just pick up a guitar or bodhran and strum or bash away, if a tune comes up which they don't know. It's as if they "just have to be doing something". Surely, it's better if they just listen to the tune and try to pick it up!
I teach European history. My students had a project to simulate the trial of Martin Luther, which took place at the diet of worms. I needed an email addy they would remember easily. Thus, a source of befuddlement was born.
There's littel doubt that I have a "lesser insight into music" than the original poster but I have a theory for what its worth. I'm making the opposite journey - a guitarist who is trying to learn the fiddle. There is something special about the relationship between great tune playing and backing and - in my experience - fiddle and guitar. It gets even better when you spend some time on the other side of the bench and get into the head of the other half. My backing has been getting better as my fiddle playing is coming along.
Bliss,
I saw your windup, and tactfully decided to ignore it. I play a lot of instruments, but I try not to play windup!
Besides, I agree with your premise, there is nothing wrong with accompanying, and variety is the spice of life.
You can still get worm to buy the pints, he didn't know he was agreeing with me.
The Phantom Button sees all. And to digress, Ptarmigan, I play 6 instruments at our normal "session" so I would hardly be complaining.
But as the Button suspects, there are some well known contributers on this site who cannot comprehend the possibility of "backing" if you can play the tune. On this site they have said "Why would ANYONE want to", "what's the point", and denounced people as idiots for doing so. How could any fiddle player want to back "The Exile Of Erin" when they could be playing it?
Perhaps the very good fiddle player who does so has a wider love of the music, and can see the overall picture, rather than the narrow tune?
Just a theory of mine. Anyone got a contrary view?
The guy who plays guitar in our group has been learning banjo lately and is getting very good. At the sessions he plays guitar about 1/3 of the time now. When he first showed up on the scene in the mid 90s he didn't even play DADGAD, but struggled to learn how -- and became the best local exponent of it. Now he mostly wants to play banjo, and I suspect playing the tunes is more fun for him -- and that's cool. The music doesn't really suffer in the absence of his guitar -- but I do miss it here and there because he's very good at it and it adds a lot of drama to the sound. If you’re capable of doing both I suppose you do it whenever it strikes your fancy.
as long as there guitar backing fairly good then why complain.good guitar backing adds a lot to the music.id often leave the flute down and back a few sets on a guitar.its a nice change and you can listen to the other insruments more.
as long as there not playing standard tuning chords from books than they shouldnt be too bad!!
"Every fiddler aspires to playing with the likes of Denis Cahill"!!!??!!
Come now, Jim, I don't think so. Denis is good at what he does, but believe it or not it's not everyone's cup of tea. He would drive a lot of great fiddlers round the bend, I'm sure. I mean no offense to him or you by this, but good grief!
I'm with Pol, and I'm a guitarist, but at least the guitar isn't a piano, so it's got that going for it. A pox on the piano.
Irish music sounds best with no backing at all and no more than three instruments, none of them percussion unless you're playing marches, but if you must have backing it sounds best with a cello playing drones and continuo.
But that has nothing to do with what other people enjoy doing and thus isn't responsive to BB's question.
"On this site they have said "Why would ANYONE want to", "what's the point", and denounced people as idiots for doing so. "
My response to The Button was germaine. A friend of mine spent a year at Berzerkley a while ago. When he came back he told me that there was question that is very common here that he never heard once there:
"Why are you doing that?"
Around The Bay everyone knows why people do things. Because they want to, obviously. The question doesn't even make sense.
But, there are people in this world who honestly believe that what they want is some sort of rule of universal law. When these people are given power they start doing things like rounding up all the guitar backers and putting them against a wall.
They are the only source of what is truely evil in the world. All that other stuff is just bad luck.
The problem with this question is that it's not really a question at all. It's simply an arrogant drum thwaker attempting to camouflage his goading of me with a spurious and inconsequential bit of attempted insight.
However, I must disappoint him a very simple and plain answer:
The question is:
"Given that these people can all play the tunes, why would any of them want to play the guitar?"
Hahaha... @ "Why are you doing that?" About a year ago our guitar player, who had just taken up banjo, made his debut on it at a pre-wedding session we were doing in a pub as guests arrived. A cute little girl stood watching him with furrowed eyebrows, and when we finished the tunes she said to him, "Why are you doing that?" It took a good few months before we could persuade him to get the banjo out and try again.
"Because, simply put, ITM sounds better with good guitar accompaniment."
This is patent crap.
I play a sesion once a week with a wonderful guitar player. The music sounds great when he's there.
On the odd occasion that he's not, it's actually really nice.
It's not 'better', it's just different.
It's not 'worse' it's just different.
What michael says about accompanying on guitar improving your melody playing is spot on.
Michael cannot understand why anyone would want to play a guitar, is that what youy mean, Ottery? Somehow I doubt it.
Took a while Michael, and it's not just you. There are others, and these fiddle players are good, but still lift the guitar? Don't do anything rash.
I would be a confident bodhran virtuouso rather than an arrogant one. Arrogance would suggest that you think you know it all. Notice it's me who asks questions?
The deal is, I buy if JIm makes it down to NC, WITHOUT two instruments. JIm buys if I go to Ireland, but only with a flute & whistle. If either brings more than the specified amount, it gets reversed. . . .. or something like that.
Why are people all down on pianos? In the hands of a good player they can be tremendously fun in a session.
Sometimes a melody player who can find the chords on a guitar might like to play through a few sets just for a change - I think that's in keeping with some of the comments above.
Likewise, they might feel that they need to play through a particular setting they have in mind.
And maybe, just as in a comment or two I've heard, it shows they can!
I am concerned, though, at fused's comments about "standard tuning chords from books". I hope it might be a reference to playing "as written" progressions, and not using them creatively.
Certainly there is nothing wrong at all with standard tuning.
"Why are people all down on pianos? In the hands of a good player they can be tremendously fun in a session. "
I cannot speak for people, but for my part it is because a piano cannot produce the tones of Irish music, no matter how skillful the player. Thus when you introduce one into a session all the other instruments must conform to the intonation of the piano. This changes the music.
Even in classical music I find the introduction of a piano after listening to a skillful naked violin solo quite jarring, and even painful.
"Certainly there is nothing wrong at all with standard tuning."
There is, however, the issue of thirds in hexatonic tunes which do not use the third in the scale. So if you play a D major chord as diagramed in a chord book you are inserting, via the backing instrument, a note which does not belong to the scale the tune is being played in.
And that thing about the piano: "when you introduce one into a session all the other instruments must conform to it".
This is true of any instrument and any player. It's what the whole of session etiquet is about. You adjust your playing to the company. It's the whole point of playing in a session.
And as for "arrogant". My dictionary has two definitions:
1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others.
Anyone here reckon Bodhran bliss does not tick both these boxes?
kris,
Before you box Dennis Cahill into the particular style he plays with Martin Hayes, think again. I was at Gaelic Roots and spend mornings with the man for a week, and saw him in a number of session settings. The man is a chameleon, and is more sensitive to the lead players than anyone I have ever seen. He can sound absolutely different in two different settings, and great in both of them. What all backers should aspire to. But like I said, not something that would be apparent if your only exposure to him is his recording and concerts with Hayes (as a matter of fact, Hayes is not as stuck in that style as people tend to think , either).
And let me just complement everyone for their courtesy, on a topic that has produced flames in the past. Regarding michael's post on arrogance, however, I wish to point out that while Bliss likes to display an arrogant face to the world, I have a strong feeling that he is more modest than he lets on. Similarly, michael purports to be a cynic, but has shown us a softer side on a number of occasions.
Uriah Heep. There's a band I haven't thought of in ages.
Growing up in a decidedly fundamentalist christian community, I honestly thought I would go to hell for playing the dusty old album I found in the attic, called Demons and Wizards, by Uriah Heep. But the music was so lovely, specially The Wizard, that I used to wait eagerly until the house was deserted, then lock all the doors, close the curtains, slip out the album from under the loose floorboard in my room and play it to myself over and over again. It was a very troubling time for an 11-year-old: convinced I was going to hell, but unable to stop the muuuusiiiic!
Oh, but you meant the Dickens character. Carry on, then.
"This is true of any instrument and any player. It's what the whole of session etiquet is about. You adjust your playing to the company."
Well, I'm glad to see you've finally seen the light and will be conforming to the rhythms of the bodhran players who don't have any. I'll be showing up at your next session with spoons and tuba. Enjoy.
Adjusting your playing has nothing to do with whether or not you enjoy the musical affect of doing so, nor is my objection to the piano session centric. Nor is it even Irish music centric. I don't like it in Indian Classical music either.
It kicks ass for stride and boogie woogie.
"Surely you could play a third in any tuning ?"
Of course you could; and stop calling me Shirley.
You could also decline to play thirds in any tuning. I'm already on record as one of those people who feels perfectly free to tune his banjo to guitar standard tuning.
The tuning isn't the issue, knowing only the standard chord forms in standard chord books is the issue.
"Melody guys learning to back and backers learning melody can only make the world a better place."
Which is why I'm learning to back with fiddle.
"Oh and Ottery is spot on with the "just different" thing"
As Gry's hip hop stuff is just different. There's no law, however, that says you have to like every difference equally. Feel free to dislike the spoon player, no matter how much I might enjoy him.
"Bliss likes to display an arrogant face to the world, I have a strong feeling that he is more modest than he lets on."
Bliss is simply engaging in a bit of Socratic rhetoric. It really has nothing to do with arrogance. He uses his apparent arrogance as a tool, a pointy stick whose intended function is to puncture arrogance. On the whole the more arrogant his posts appear on the surface the less arrogant they actually are. He's Anti Arrogant Man.
And the nerve of any who thinks they are in any way superior to anyone else in any fashion. We shall be closing down all the institutes of learning immediately to save our children from being exposed to all that arrongant teaching.
And good ridance to Harrison Bergeron. He only got what was coming to him
"Uriah Heep."
Is there a standard unit for measuring heeps of uriah, and where is it on the periodic table anyway?
"It was a very troubling time for an 11-year-old: convinced I was going to hell"
For a JW friend of mine it was the Heinlein book Have Spacesuit, Will Travel. He was never the same after reading that book. His family isn't "allowed" to speak to him anymore. We should probably burn all the books and music. Maybe the Internet thingy too while we're about it.
I am just a humble multi-instrumentalist, who likes the bodhran, trying to add a wee bit here and there. I actually try to fit in, and encourage others.
And I don't have "feelings" or "assumption" of being superior, I just am, naturally. But I try to control it and hide it.
Remember when I complemented everyone on their courtesy?
I probably should have complemented them on their courtesy up until that point.
I have a feeling that, at any moment, it will be time to yell, "INCOMING," and dive under my desk.
Around my neck of the woods the good back-up players are most in demand and can get far more gigs than the melody players because there are so few good back-up players around. If you're a good local back-up player you'll even find yourself on tour with big stars from Ireland as well. Is it like that everwhere? I notice that it's very rare to hear about good local melody players anywhere getting these sorts of opportunities. But I often read or hear back-up players saying things like, "I toured with Paddy Keenan." or, "I toured with Tommy Peoples." or, "I played some gigs with (insert famous Irish music legend's name here)."
Some nice tosh in here! I LOVE piano backing by someone who knows the tune. Had some glorious sessions donkeys years ago up in the Cross Keys with Jeannie McGrath tastefully vamping away and driving the tunes with power and lift.
And as for the three unaccompanied players ....... I suppose it has it's place [and indeed I have had such in my own kitchen] but it is hardly the acme of diddley dee.
Give me a session with John McGreevey or Jim Byrne any on zouk and guit any day of the week!
Well, that's your opinion, and please bear in mind that I clearly understand what I said as my opinion, in contrast to another opinion, which was the only point of my saying it in the first place.
This may be a case you can understand as a bodhran player. There are tunes that don't require bodhran, and then there are other bodhran players that show up. Even if they are not the Pizza Box type bodhran player, two or more bodhrans going at the same time is difficult to synch. So I take turns. I also play Octave Mandolin/ Shortscale Bouzouki, or take a time out to shamelessly catch up on the free drinks. I am also experimenting with a 12 string guitar that I have altered to an 8 string with GDAE tuning. Call it a Guizooki or a Bouzitar. I find playing more than one instrument fun. I fiddler friend puts alot of energy into fiddle playing and he says it is part of pacing himself through an evening with more relaxed back up guitar to others. And his excellent guitar adds alot to the sessions.
WHY?
WHY?
I was at a real session last light, excellent fiddle players, banjo, flutes, guitarist and a good bodhran player.
Now the fiddle players are all good players, some very good. And yet.....
Each of them at some stage insisted on accompanying the music by playing the guitar.
Now given that these people can all play the tunes, why would any of them want to play the guitar?
Perhaps some of those with a lesser insight into music than myself could supply the answer.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
Because they enjoy it. Is there a need for any other answer?
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: WHY?
It is great fun to step aside and enjoy another instrument. I often play 5 string banjo at a bluegrass session and switch over to bass fiddle when the bassist wants a break-it's a different feel and lood at the music.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by pick&bow
Re: WHY?
I wasn't being facetious - why does anyone pick any instument? It seems self evident to me, not to mention extremely simple and straightforward, but apparently it isn;t.
To reiterate a point I made and got flamed on the other day. . . given that all the musicians were equally competent, would you rather hear a session with nine fiddlers or eight fiddlers and a guitarist? a lot of the time (Not all the time, mind you) many people would legitimately opt for the second option.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: WHY?
As a melody player at a session, you have the freedom to create a set tunes, but once you start, you have only limited creative possiblities within the tunes themselves, you normally have to stick to the melody line or things start getting muddied up.
As a part time backer, especially after having played night after night of melody, a whole new world of creative possibilities opens up. If you know what you're doing, you can mess around with voicings of chords, see which chords you can substitute, see how what you vary harmonically can put the tune in a completely different light.
Then there's the rhythmical aspect, whether you play the standard offbeat style, a 3-3-2 shuffle, half time or one of those Lunasa thingys.
It's kind of like having a fine paintbrush as a melody player with only one or two colors where you can draw details, while as a backer, you have a thick brush with a large palette that you use to set moods.
I must admit though that as a fiddler who plays DADGAD guitar as a second instrument, I probably would feel that I'm missing something if I were only able to play guitar.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Bleedin' Heart
Re: WHY?
Apparently I've offended, and for that I apologize.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: WHY?
Really, Jim, we all want to wear tight leather britches and be rock stars!
Bliss, I think it has to do with the need to re-arrange the brain every now and again. Fiddling is soooo diddley sometimes. Picking up a different instrument gives me a chance to think of a tune differently. Guitar is such a rhythm trip; I can't play one worth a hoot, but I can see the attraction.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Michele Sims
Re: WHY?
I like the different sound, and challenges, of different instruments. Accompaniment has its advantages, as Bleedin Heart has pointed out, since accompanying offers more room for improvisation than melody in this type of music.The guitar is my main instrument, and it is fun accompanying, but sometimes I like to play melody, and since I have always played guitar as an accompanying instrument, I am not too adept at playing melodies on it. I like the sound of the tin whistle, and enjoy playing it on those few dozen tunes I have mastered on the instrument. I have always liked the accordion, and almost no one else around me was playing it, so I took it up a few years ago, and am making steady progress. And recently I brought out the harmonica at a session and it was well received, so I am exploring that. As I have played harmonica longer than any of the other instruments listed above, and it can be played one handed and thus during my commute to work, this has been quite fun, and I have been progressing pretty quickly in the number of tunes I have mastered.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: WHY?
So far I agree with Wormdiet, it does seem obvious, does it not?
I also believe those who said about guitar players being "cool", it's always the guitarist who attracts glances and advances, well from the average punter at any rate.
I thank Jim for defending me.
However the last sentence in the thread was the clue. "Those less insightful than me".
This site contains some people, male and female, who cannot understand why a melody player would want to accompany. Just cannot get their heads around the concept, just don't understand it, and won't even try.
I was hoping to garner a response from such people.
Your silence is deafening.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
Sometimes I put down my concertina and flute and pick up my bodhran and play even though I know the tune. Why? Because I enjoy it.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
Well yes, but you're from SF, so you would see things that way.
KFG
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: WHY?
Yeah, I'm with Worm & Button on this one. I sometimes need to take two or three instruments to a session when I know there will be a lack of melody instruments & I play different instruments because I enjoy working out & then listening to how the different instruments have to interpret the same tune in a different way - yes, basically because I enjoy it.
I can't see for the life of me, how anyone could interpret Worm's 1st reply as insulting, Jim.
He simply answered it honestly, & without waffle, & then baited the thread, I assume to encourage more folks to respond.
Jolly descent of him, I thought!
I am curious myself, to know why some folks here seem to have a major problem with other musicians taking more than one instrument to a session.
Surely it can't be envy, as we all know how easy it is to learn a 2nd instrument once you have made a pretty good stab at a first.
So what is it bb that upsets you so about this practice, that makes you feel the urge to 'thread it'?
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: WHY?
Jim, yer on. If you spot me the airfare, I'll humbly apologize profusely, and obtusely, in public, and provide you with rounds for the duration of evening. I won't even bring my guitar.
I think there are just a few good reasons not to bring too many instruments, but neither of them revolve around the melody/rhythm divide.
1) In a tight location, will a big secondary instrument really add enough to justify the space?
2) If the person in question dilletantishly plays poorly on everything and won;t put in the time to get competent on one instrument. I have never actually seen this happen except in the case of the dual action egg/goat smackers.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: WHY?
I don't think Blisster is upset, but his observations at that session contradict the impressions he's gained from people in here. Am I right... Blisster?
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
A shakey-egg doesn't take up much extra room.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
I've joined this discussion late but, for once, I thought BB had a good point. However, he states that these musicians were good players and would have known all the tunes. So, it appears that they were playing guitar or bodhran because they were genuinely interested and wishing to expand their horizons a little(You can argue whether or not this is possible, if you wish). I don't see anything wrong with this. What I don't understand is why melody players just pick up a guitar or bodhran and strum or bash away, if a tune comes up which they don't know. It's as if they "just have to be doing something". Surely, it's better if they just listen to the tune and try to pick it up!
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: WHY?
Jim: Re the Diet of Worms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_of_Worms
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by thier1754
Re: WHY?
I teach European history. My students had a project to simulate the trial of Martin Luther, which took place at the diet of worms. I needed an email addy they would remember easily. Thus, a source of befuddlement was born.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: WHY?
Hey... get a room you guys!
Hahahaha
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
There's littel doubt that I have a "lesser insight into music" than the original poster but I have a theory for what its worth. I'm making the opposite journey - a guitarist who is trying to learn the fiddle. There is something special about the relationship between great tune playing and backing and - in my experience - fiddle and guitar. It gets even better when you spend some time on the other side of the bench and get into the head of the other half. My backing has been getting better as my fiddle playing is coming along.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by geoffmc
Re: WHY?
I'll let you know as soon as I figure out how to make an innocent smiley with a halo.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
Bliss,
I saw your windup, and tactfully decided to ignore it. I play a lot of instruments, but I try not to play windup!
Besides, I agree with your premise, there is nothing wrong with accompanying, and variety is the spice of life.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: WHY?
You can still get worm to buy the pints, he didn't know he was agreeing with me.
The Phantom Button sees all. And to digress, Ptarmigan, I play 6 instruments at our normal "session" so I would hardly be complaining.
But as the Button suspects, there are some well known contributers on this site who cannot comprehend the possibility of "backing" if you can play the tune. On this site they have said "Why would ANYONE want to", "what's the point", and denounced people as idiots for doing so. How could any fiddle player want to back "The Exile Of Erin" when they could be playing it?
Perhaps the very good fiddle player who does so has a wider love of the music, and can see the overall picture, rather than the narrow tune?
Just a theory of mine. Anyone got a contrary view?
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
Why?
Because I can.
Brilliant on both of them. but backing on guitar is so easy. Anyone can do it.
If you want to play music, play the fiddle.
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Pól
Re: WHY?
Because, simply put, ITM sounds better with good guitar accompaniment.
Sean Earnest
Camp Hill, PA
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by DADGADLad
Re: WHY?
No.
No.
It doesn't
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Pól
Re: WHY?
The guy who plays guitar in our group has been learning banjo lately and is getting very good. At the sessions he plays guitar about 1/3 of the time now. When he first showed up on the scene in the mid 90s he didn't even play DADGAD, but struggled to learn how -- and became the best local exponent of it. Now he mostly wants to play banjo, and I suspect playing the tunes is more fun for him -- and that's cool. The music doesn't really suffer in the absence of his guitar -- but I do miss it here and there because he's very good at it and it adds a lot of drama to the sound. If you’re capable of doing both I suppose you do it whenever it strikes your fancy.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
as long as there guitar backing fairly good then why complain.good guitar backing adds a lot to the music.id often leave the flute down and back a few sets on a guitar.its a nice change and you can listen to the other insruments more.
as long as there not playing standard tuning chords from books than they shouldnt be too bad!!
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by fused
Re: WHY?
"Every fiddler aspires to playing with the likes of Denis Cahill"!!!??!!
Come now, Jim, I don't think so. Denis is good at what he does, but believe it or not it's not everyone's cup of tea. He would drive a lot of great fiddlers round the bend, I'm sure. I mean no offense to him or you by this, but good grief!
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by kris
Re: WHY?
I'm with Pol, and I'm a guitarist, but at least the guitar isn't a piano, so it's got that going for it. A pox on the piano.
Irish music sounds best with no backing at all and no more than three instruments, none of them percussion unless you're playing marches, but if you must have backing it sounds best with a cello playing drones and continuo.
But that has nothing to do with what other people enjoy doing and thus isn't responsive to BB's question.
"On this site they have said "Why would ANYONE want to", "what's the point", and denounced people as idiots for doing so. "
My response to The Button was germaine. A friend of mine spent a year at Berzerkley a while ago. When he came back he told me that there was question that is very common here that he never heard once there:
"Why are you doing that?"
Around The Bay everyone knows why people do things. Because they want to, obviously. The question doesn't even make sense.
But, there are people in this world who honestly believe that what they want is some sort of rule of universal law. When these people are given power they start doing things like rounding up all the guitar backers and putting them against a wall.
They are the only source of what is truely evil in the world. All that other stuff is just bad luck.
A pox on them all. . .
Why do they do that anyway?
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: WHY?
The problem with this question is that it's not really a question at all. It's simply an arrogant drum thwaker attempting to camouflage his goading of me with a spurious and inconsequential bit of attempted insight.
However, I must disappoint him a very simple and plain answer:
The question is:
"Given that these people can all play the tunes, why would any of them want to play the guitar?"
Because it will make you a better tune player.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by ...
Re: WHY?
Hahaha... @ "Why are you doing that?" About a year ago our guitar player, who had just taken up banjo, made his debut on it at a pre-wedding session we were doing in a pub as guests arrived. A cute little girl stood watching him with furrowed eyebrows, and when we finished the tunes she said to him, "Why are you doing that?" It took a good few months before we could persuade him to get the banjo out and try again.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
Guitar = drive = energy = great addition to any session!
That bit about "no more than three people" was hilarious. Too bad there aren't any more than three people to laugh along with with you.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by DADGADLad
Re: WHY?
"Because, simply put, ITM sounds better with good guitar accompaniment."
This is patent crap.
I play a sesion once a week with a wonderful guitar player. The music sounds great when he's there.
On the odd occasion that he's not, it's actually really nice.
It's not 'better', it's just different.
It's not 'worse' it's just different.
What michael says about accompanying on guitar improving your melody playing is spot on.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Ottery
Re: WHY?
Michael cannot understand why anyone would want to play a guitar, is that what youy mean, Ottery? Somehow I doubt it.
Took a while Michael, and it's not just you. There are others, and these fiddle players are good, but still lift the guitar? Don't do anything rash.
I would be a confident bodhran virtuouso rather than an arrogant one. Arrogance would suggest that you think you know it all. Notice it's me who asks questions?
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
Thank you Jim. I knew you would appreciate the thread.
Is the worm still buying or has he turned?
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
Why?
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
Because he was there.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
The deal is, I buy if JIm makes it down to NC, WITHOUT two instruments. JIm buys if I go to Ireland, but only with a flute & whistle. If either brings more than the specified amount, it gets reversed. . . .. or something like that.
Why are people all down on pianos? In the hands of a good player they can be tremendously fun in a session.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: WHY?
There was a point where I thought I understood this thread.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
Sometimes a melody player who can find the chords on a guitar might like to play through a few sets just for a change - I think that's in keeping with some of the comments above.
Likewise, they might feel that they need to play through a particular setting they have in mind.
And maybe, just as in a comment or two I've heard, it shows they can!
I am concerned, though, at fused's comments about "standard tuning chords from books". I hope it might be a reference to playing "as written" progressions, and not using them creatively.
Certainly there is nothing wrong at all with standard tuning.
Brianx
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: WHY?
"Why are people all down on pianos? In the hands of a good player they can be tremendously fun in a session. "
I cannot speak for people, but for my part it is because a piano cannot produce the tones of Irish music, no matter how skillful the player. Thus when you introduce one into a session all the other instruments must conform to the intonation of the piano. This changes the music.
Even in classical music I find the introduction of a piano after listening to a skillful naked violin solo quite jarring, and even painful.
"Certainly there is nothing wrong at all with standard tuning."
There is, however, the issue of thirds in hexatonic tunes which do not use the third in the scale. So if you play a D major chord as diagramed in a chord book you are inserting, via the backing instrument, a note which does not belong to the scale the tune is being played in.
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: WHY?
Come off it, just 'cause you use standard EADGBE does't meen you play major thirds all the time.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by ...
Re: WHY?
And that thing about the piano: "when you introduce one into a session all the other instruments must conform to it".
This is true of any instrument and any player. It's what the whole of session etiquet is about. You adjust your playing to the company. It's the whole point of playing in a session.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by ...
Re: WHY?
And as for "arrogant". My dictionary has two definitions:
1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others.
Anyone here reckon Bodhran bliss does not tick both these boxes?
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by ...
Re: WHY?
There's quite a few of us here who could tick both boxes, heh!
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: WHY?
though I admit it
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by ...
Re: WHY?
KFG,
Surely you could play a third in any tuning ?
Then of course there are the tunes that do use the third.
Melody guys learning to back and backers learning melody can only make the world a better place.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by BegF
Re: WHY?
Oh and Ottery is spot on with the "just different" thing
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by BegF
Re: WHY?
kris,
Before you box Dennis Cahill into the particular style he plays with Martin Hayes, think again. I was at Gaelic Roots and spend mornings with the man for a week, and saw him in a number of session settings. The man is a chameleon, and is more sensitive to the lead players than anyone I have ever seen. He can sound absolutely different in two different settings, and great in both of them. What all backers should aspire to. But like I said, not something that would be apparent if your only exposure to him is his recording and concerts with Hayes (as a matter of fact, Hayes is not as stuck in that style as people tend to think , either).
And let me just complement everyone for their courtesy, on a topic that has produced flames in the past. Regarding michael's post on arrogance, however, I wish to point out that while Bliss likes to display an arrogant face to the world, I have a strong feeling that he is more modest than he lets on. Similarly, michael purports to be a cynic, but has shown us a softer side on a number of occasions.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: WHY?
Uriah Heep. There's a band I haven't thought of in ages.
Growing up in a decidedly fundamentalist christian community, I honestly thought I would go to hell for playing the dusty old album I found in the attic, called Demons and Wizards, by Uriah Heep. But the music was so lovely, specially The Wizard, that I used to wait eagerly until the house was deserted, then lock all the doors, close the curtains, slip out the album from under the loose floorboard in my room and play it to myself over and over again. It was a very troubling time for an 11-year-old: convinced I was going to hell, but unable to stop the muuuusiiiic!
Oh, but you meant the Dickens character. Carry on, then.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Q
Re: WHY?
"This is true of any instrument and any player. It's what the whole of session etiquet is about. You adjust your playing to the company."
Well, I'm glad to see you've finally seen the light and will be conforming to the rhythms of the bodhran players who don't have any. I'll be showing up at your next session with spoons and tuba. Enjoy.
Adjusting your playing has nothing to do with whether or not you enjoy the musical affect of doing so, nor is my objection to the piano session centric. Nor is it even Irish music centric. I don't like it in Indian Classical music either.
It kicks ass for stride and boogie woogie.
"Surely you could play a third in any tuning ?"
Of course you could; and stop calling me Shirley.
You could also decline to play thirds in any tuning. I'm already on record as one of those people who feels perfectly free to tune his banjo to guitar standard tuning.
The tuning isn't the issue, knowing only the standard chord forms in standard chord books is the issue.
"Melody guys learning to back and backers learning melody can only make the world a better place."
Which is why I'm learning to back with fiddle.
"Oh and Ottery is spot on with the "just different" thing"
As Gry's hip hop stuff is just different. There's no law, however, that says you have to like every difference equally. Feel free to dislike the spoon player, no matter how much I might enjoy him.
"Bliss likes to display an arrogant face to the world, I have a strong feeling that he is more modest than he lets on."
Bliss is simply engaging in a bit of Socratic rhetoric. It really has nothing to do with arrogance. He uses his apparent arrogance as a tool, a pointy stick whose intended function is to puncture arrogance. On the whole the more arrogant his posts appear on the surface the less arrogant they actually are. He's Anti Arrogant Man.
And the nerve of any who thinks they are in any way superior to anyone else in any fashion. We shall be closing down all the institutes of learning immediately to save our children from being exposed to all that arrongant teaching.
And good ridance to Harrison Bergeron. He only got what was coming to him
"Uriah Heep."
Is there a standard unit for measuring heeps of uriah, and where is it on the periodic table anyway?
"It was a very troubling time for an 11-year-old: convinced I was going to hell"
For a JW friend of mine it was the Heinlein book Have Spacesuit, Will Travel. He was never the same after reading that book. His family isn't "allowed" to speak to him anymore. We should probably burn all the books and music. Maybe the Internet thingy too while we're about it.
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: WHY?
tee he
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by ...
Re: WHY?
I am just a humble multi-instrumentalist, who likes the bodhran, trying to add a wee bit here and there. I actually try to fit in, and encourage others.
And I don't have "feelings" or "assumption" of being superior, I just am, naturally. But I try to control it and hide it.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
The wise man knows to play the fool.
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: WHY?
"I am wise, so a play the fool. I appear foolish, so am I wise?"
balllocks
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by ...
Re: WHY?
Dear, oh dear. Seem to have touched a nerve. Any way, all of you fiddlers who want to be backers, because that's where it's at, fair play to you.
Back away.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
Remember when I complemented everyone on their courtesy?
I probably should have complemented them on their courtesy up until that point.
I have a feeling that, at any moment, it will be time to yell, "INCOMING," and dive under my desk.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: WHY?
While you're all stewing... I have a question.
Around my neck of the woods the good back-up players are most in demand and can get far more gigs than the melody players because there are so few good back-up players around. If you're a good local back-up player you'll even find yourself on tour with big stars from Ireland as well. Is it like that everwhere? I notice that it's very rare to hear about good local melody players anywhere getting these sorts of opportunities. But I often read or hear back-up players saying things like, "I toured with Paddy Keenan." or, "I toured with Tommy Peoples." or, "I played some gigs with (insert famous Irish music legend's name here)."
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: WHY?
Was Paddy Keenan asking about me when you played with him?
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: WHY?
Depends, bliss - are you a freshly drawn pint?
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by Q
Re: WHY?
Some nice tosh in here! I LOVE piano backing by someone who knows the tune. Had some glorious sessions donkeys years ago up in the Cross Keys with Jeannie McGrath tastefully vamping away and driving the tunes with power and lift.
And as for the three unaccompanied players ....... I suppose it has it's place [and indeed I have had such in my own kitchen] but it is hardly the acme of diddley dee.
Give me a session with John McGreevey or Jim Byrne any on zouk and guit any day of the week!
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by breandan
Re: WHY?
Well, that's your opinion, and please bear in mind that I clearly understand what I said as my opinion, in contrast to another opinion, which was the only point of my saying it in the first place.
We all have our own acmes.
KFG
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by KFG
Re: WHY?
Bliss! How are things in your part of the world.
This may be a case you can understand as a bodhran player. There are tunes that don't require bodhran, and then there are other bodhran players that show up. Even if they are not the Pizza Box type bodhran player, two or more bodhrans going at the same time is difficult to synch. So I take turns. I also play Octave Mandolin/ Shortscale Bouzouki, or take a time out to shamelessly catch up on the free drinks. I am also experimenting with a 12 string guitar that I have altered to an 8 string with GDAE tuning. Call it a Guizooki or a Bouzitar. I find playing more than one instrument fun. I fiddler friend puts alot of energy into fiddle playing and he says it is part of pacing himself through an evening with more relaxed back up guitar to others. And his excellent guitar adds alot to the sessions.
# Posted on November 20th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: WHY?
10 bodhrans is ok if properly handled, just like fiddles.
# Posted on November 20th 2005 by bodhran bliss