I haven't been playing tenor banjo for long but do play a bit of fiddle. Despite playing a short scale banjo i have difficulty reaching 4th position notes without losing time and/or intonation. Should I persevere in first position or explore moving up the neck, thereby changing slightly the tonality of these notes? What is conventional?
Controversies over left hand technique on the tenor banjo are as old as the instrument itself. Both violin and what in the 1920s was called cello fingering have their advocates.
I learned on a short-scale instrument, but even with that found the reach to the seventh fret difficult. I found that the only way I could finger smoothly and quickly was to use a combination of fingering styles. The issue is partly whether you can finger a note clearly, but more important is where you go from that note. For example, if the tune descends after hitting a note on the fifth fret, I'll use the pinky. If I need to reach the seventh fret I will slide my hand up to hit the fifth fret with the ring finger. Recently I've switched to a 23-inch banjo, and find this is more important than ever.
In terms of tonal quality, I find that the right hand is much more important than the left. Where you hit the string, whether or not you touch the head, and the type of pick you use will affect the sound greatly.
Good luck and have fun--the banjo takes a lot of negotiating, but that is why it can so entrancing to play.
Joe, Your Little Finger Should Work The 4th Position For You
Try Using All 4 Fingers When Playing The Banjo, I Use 3 Fingers Playing The Mandolin And 4 When Playing The Banjo
P/s You Will Have To Change Your Name Now To Joe The Finger. Good Luck.
Joe ,get a copy of Gerry O'Connors video 'Banjo techniques'. It's an excellent instuctional video and this problem is fully explained .The fancy term for it is 'finger fret alignment'.
David has it right, you have to learn to use all four fingers to play a banjo if you want to develop speed. The "controversy" related to whether you should use a four finger style (i.e. each fret has a finger assigned to it - first finger on fret 2, second on fret 3, etc.) or the more familiar to fiddlers of using three fingers until you reach for the high B note with your fourth finger.
A lot of heat is generated by this dialogue but the bottom line is that if the scale length is too long for your three finger style, go to the four fingers. The main objection of fiddle style players (also called mandolin style, three finger style, and most confusing, diatonic fingering) is that you can't duplicate the same techniques you use on a fiddle if you go to the four finger (guitar, cello, or chromatic style) method. The counter argument is that the four finger style is faster and easier. The ad hominum argument is that you are a stupid idiot to even think of using (insert style here.)
The difference between the styles usually centers around how the high B is hit. There are three ways to go to the seventh fret: slide your little finger to the note from first position, reach for the seventh fret from first position, or start in second position with your ring finger on the fifth fret and touch the seventh fret with your little finger. Both styles use all three methods, they just call it something different and argue endlessly about which is the correct way to do it. In real life you have to decide how to hit the high B depending on where you are in the tune.
For example, in the tune "Maid Behind the Bar" the high B note usually has to be hit by reaching for it with your little finger as there is no transitional A note to shift your ring finger on. In the third part of "Musical Priest" you have to make the same reach from an A string note to the high B on the E string. On the other hand if you play the hornpipe "Boys of Bluehill" you have transitional A notes on the E string and you can shift your ring finger to the A and use your little finger to play the B note.
If you were playing the last tune fiddle style, your ring finger would already be on the fifth fret but in the cello style you would have to make a position shift.
The fiddle style has problems with tunes that require the same finger to hit two notes on two different frets on two different strings immediate succesion. I am at a loss to think of an example right now, but those tunes are common ("Cup of Tea", maybe?) and easy to play with the four finger style.
In the end you have to explore both methods and use the one that you are most comfortable with. There are no hard and fast rules and if you watch the very best players they mix it up depending on the tune and the effect they want to produce.
Bar the seventh fret and continue playing there in a three finger style whatever your first position technique until a convenient note or pause allows you to move back to first position without causing a break in the flow of the tune. A note that can be played on a open string is a good bet. Just take your hand off the neck and move it while playing the open string note.
Yeah, you'll have to learn your scales in the seventh position. It'll take almost . . .minutes.
If you're playing in a session and think that anyone is going to care about the difference in tonality between an open string and stopped one, yer nuts. Save those concerns for your solo concert.
And always remember that the only point of technique is to get the sound you want, as easily as possible. Judge a player with your eyes closed. Judge yourself by how much work you have to do to get the job done. The *less* the better.
With your eyes open you can learn a lot about how much people understand about playing an instrument by who they watch play. You'll find the biggest crowds around the young player making lots of flashy moves, fingers flying. They'll be saying "Oooooooooooooooo" a lot.
Those people don't know s*** about playing.
The people who know s*** are the ones over in the corner paying careful attention to the old guy who *hardly ever seems to move.*
They'll be doing so in absolute silence.
If you want to learn about technique, join that "crowd." Keep your eyes and mind open, and your mouth shut.
[Assuming GDAE tuning] .... there's also the 1/2 position glide if you want to reach a high C or C# .
An example - you are playing in the key of A major and there's a high B / C# / B triplet needed - so the notes/fingering starting from open E would be :
[up] E / 0.....F# / 1....G# / 2.....A / 2.....
[triplet] B / 3.....C# / 4....B / 3......
[down] A / 2....G# / 2.....F# / 1....E / 0
....so a glide of 1 fret, rather than a severe position shift, and can be done quickly with ease. Also less of a stretch than fingering an A with the 3rd and a B with the 4th.
Banjo finger positions
Banjo finger positions
I haven't been playing tenor banjo for long but do play a bit of fiddle. Despite playing a short scale banjo i have difficulty reaching 4th position notes without losing time and/or intonation. Should I persevere in first position or explore moving up the neck, thereby changing slightly the tonality of these notes? What is conventional?
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by joe the bow
Re: Banjo finger positions
Controversies over left hand technique on the tenor banjo are as old as the instrument itself. Both violin and what in the 1920s was called cello fingering have their advocates.
I learned on a short-scale instrument, but even with that found the reach to the seventh fret difficult. I found that the only way I could finger smoothly and quickly was to use a combination of fingering styles. The issue is partly whether you can finger a note clearly, but more important is where you go from that note. For example, if the tune descends after hitting a note on the fifth fret, I'll use the pinky. If I need to reach the seventh fret I will slide my hand up to hit the fifth fret with the ring finger. Recently I've switched to a 23-inch banjo, and find this is more important than ever.
In terms of tonal quality, I find that the right hand is much more important than the left. Where you hit the string, whether or not you touch the head, and the type of pick you use will affect the sound greatly.
Good luck and have fun--the banjo takes a lot of negotiating, but that is why it can so entrancing to play.
David
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by dwdeacon
Re: Banjo finger positions
Joe, Your Little Finger Should Work The 4th Position For You
Try Using All 4 Fingers When Playing The Banjo, I Use 3 Fingers Playing The Mandolin And 4 When Playing The Banjo
P/s You Will Have To Change Your Name Now To Joe The Finger. Good Luck.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by celtic strings
Re: Banjo finger positions
Dave, You Beat Me to It.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by celtic strings
Re: Banjo finger positions
When playing the banjo, at no time should the fingers leave the end of the hands.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by LastToFinish
Re: Banjo finger positions
Joe ,get a copy of Gerry O'Connors video 'Banjo techniques'. It's an excellent instuctional video and this problem is fully explained .The fancy term for it is 'finger fret alignment'.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by banjoian
Re: Banjo finger positions
Joe,
David has it right, you have to learn to use all four fingers to play a banjo if you want to develop speed. The "controversy" related to whether you should use a four finger style (i.e. each fret has a finger assigned to it - first finger on fret 2, second on fret 3, etc.) or the more familiar to fiddlers of using three fingers until you reach for the high B note with your fourth finger.
A lot of heat is generated by this dialogue but the bottom line is that if the scale length is too long for your three finger style, go to the four fingers. The main objection of fiddle style players (also called mandolin style, three finger style, and most confusing, diatonic fingering) is that you can't duplicate the same techniques you use on a fiddle if you go to the four finger (guitar, cello, or chromatic style) method. The counter argument is that the four finger style is faster and easier. The ad hominum argument is that you are a stupid idiot to even think of using (insert style here.)
The difference between the styles usually centers around how the high B is hit. There are three ways to go to the seventh fret: slide your little finger to the note from first position, reach for the seventh fret from first position, or start in second position with your ring finger on the fifth fret and touch the seventh fret with your little finger. Both styles use all three methods, they just call it something different and argue endlessly about which is the correct way to do it. In real life you have to decide how to hit the high B depending on where you are in the tune.
For example, in the tune "Maid Behind the Bar" the high B note usually has to be hit by reaching for it with your little finger as there is no transitional A note to shift your ring finger on. In the third part of "Musical Priest" you have to make the same reach from an A string note to the high B on the E string. On the other hand if you play the hornpipe "Boys of Bluehill" you have transitional A notes on the E string and you can shift your ring finger to the A and use your little finger to play the B note.
If you were playing the last tune fiddle style, your ring finger would already be on the fifth fret but in the cello style you would have to make a position shift.
The fiddle style has problems with tunes that require the same finger to hit two notes on two different frets on two different strings immediate succesion. I am at a loss to think of an example right now, but those tunes are common ("Cup of Tea", maybe?) and easy to play with the four finger style.
In the end you have to explore both methods and use the one that you are most comfortable with. There are no hard and fast rules and if you watch the very best players they mix it up depending on the tune and the effect they want to produce.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/jun05/woodchoppers.html
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo finger positions
Bar the seventh fret and continue playing there in a three finger style whatever your first position technique until a convenient note or pause allows you to move back to first position without causing a break in the flow of the tune. A note that can be played on a open string is a good bet. Just take your hand off the neck and move it while playing the open string note.
Yeah, you'll have to learn your scales in the seventh position. It'll take almost . . .minutes.
If you're playing in a session and think that anyone is going to care about the difference in tonality between an open string and stopped one, yer nuts. Save those concerns for your solo concert.
And always remember that the only point of technique is to get the sound you want, as easily as possible. Judge a player with your eyes closed. Judge yourself by how much work you have to do to get the job done. The *less* the better.
With your eyes open you can learn a lot about how much people understand about playing an instrument by who they watch play. You'll find the biggest crowds around the young player making lots of flashy moves, fingers flying. They'll be saying "Oooooooooooooooo" a lot.
Those people don't know s*** about playing.
The people who know s*** are the ones over in the corner paying careful attention to the old guy who *hardly ever seems to move.*
They'll be doing so in absolute silence.
If you want to learn about technique, join that "crowd." Keep your eyes and mind open, and your mouth shut.
KFG
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: Banjo finger positions
Words of Great Wisdom from KFG ..... well said !
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Red Robin
Re: Banjo finger positions
If your stretches are becoming too difficult, then you can always try tuning every string down one note and then capoing up two frets.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Zazzaliss
Re: Banjo finger positions
Good points, KFG.
[Assuming GDAE tuning] .... there's also the 1/2 position glide if you want to reach a high C or C# .
An example - you are playing in the key of A major and there's a high B / C# / B triplet needed - so the notes/fingering starting from open E would be :
[up] E / 0.....F# / 1....G# / 2.....A / 2.....
[triplet] B / 3.....C# / 4....B / 3......
[down] A / 2....G# / 2.....F# / 1....E / 0
....so a glide of 1 fret, rather than a severe position shift, and can be done quickly with ease. Also less of a stretch than fingering an A with the 3rd and a B with the 4th.
Apologies if you already know all this.
Jim
# Posted on November 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler