So, I went to my first session in about 3 years last night and had an utter blast. I've mostly been playing shanties and whatnot, and, while I did manage to write down the names of some of the songs, I had a quick question..
The recordings here of "The Boys of Bluehill" is swung... Is Harvest Home and Cooley's Reel generally played swung as well?
"The Boys of Bluehill" and "Harvest Home" are hornpipes and have an accented long note short note pattern which I think is too deliberate to be described as swing, but I suppose this must depend on your own interpretation. I can't imagine "Cooley's Reel" played with any swing given the hectic pace it lends itself to but that might say more about my imaginative shortcomings than anything else.
I think all hornpipes are meant to be played with a dotted rythm with the accent on the 1 and 3. I do hear a lot of players blast through them as if they were reels, and I think that's less fun; doesn't break up the session mood, if you know what I mean. I also try to play hornpipes somewhat slowly. That's how dancers seem to like it.
Ah... the hornpipe/swing/tempo issue raises its head. I spent most of my years playing hornpipes slow and with a swing until I started playing for set dancers. The set dancers would give us weird and dissatisfied looks and indicate they wanted it faster. This prompted me to study and review the recordings I had of hornpipes. I discovered that I was playing the same hornpipes I learned from recordings slower than they were recorded, and I was adding a healthy portion of swing as well. I also played closer attention to the musicians that came through the Plough and Stars here in SF when they would play horpipes and realized they were playing them faster and with less swing as well. Now I try to do the same -- and the set dancers are quite happy.
I have a hypothesis about this. For many years while I was learning ITM I couldn't play the reels up to speed, (like many of my local cohorts,) and the tempo was actually more like hornpipe tempo really. Then when we played hornpipes we played even slower, and once you get that slow it's easier to play with more swing. If we didn't do this there would have been no difference between the reels and the horpipes regarding tempo. The added swing also helped to distinguish the hornpipes from the reels. Now that we have the reels up to speed we can play the hornpipes more like the Irish folks do and still give them their own distinction. How much swing you want to put in is a matter of taste and style.
Having said all that... when we play for step dancers, as opposed to set dancers, the step dancers like the slow and swingy hornpipes sometimes.
Because the hornpipe is a step dance for untrained dancers.
Even your step dancers are likely dancing rather faster than would have been done traditionally; and your older style of playing was probably more in line with the older style of playing.
Recordings are great sources of tunes, but they are lousy sources for judging tempo. They're done at recording speed.
There's one very well known recording of a hornpipe, however, that was done at something resembling a proper pace and swing, because it was done in the 30s to accompany people who were actually dancing to it. In fact, they even filmed the dancers and you can likely find a copy of it in your local video store or library.
The tempos on the recordings were corroborated by the musicians from Ireland that would pass through, so I wasn't basing it solely on the recordings. But I'm going to take my cues from living and breathing Irish players I listen to rather than historic recordings. If I wanted to recreate a particular time and place based on a recorded source -- fine. But I'm not going to tell the set dancers that they're wrong, and I'm not going to tell someone like Andrew McNamara that he's playing them wrong.
It's bloody obvious if you actually pick up a fiddle and play it, isn't it? I shall put on the pointy hat and go sit in the corner for half an hour while playing slides. I obviously don't play them enough.
Oh, by the way, what was your point about Irish music not having a pop carrier again?
"The tempos on the recordings were corroborated by the musicians from Ireland that would pass through, so I wasn't basing it solely on the recordings."
Of the sort that make and/or listen to recordings? Can you say "feedback loop"?
"If I wanted to recreate a particular time and place based on a recorded source -- fine."
Quite honestly I don't care if you play everything as a polka while standing on your head. I might even be interested in watching that. I wasn't being one of the Trad Police.
"But I'm not going to tell the set dancers that they're wrong, and I'm not going to tell someone like Andrew McNamara that he's playing them wrong."
Well good, that proves you're not an idiot. Not that I even considered that possibility at this point.
However, my point was not meant to imply that they are wrong, but that your previous way of playing was not, which is a rather different point.
In other words, the set dancers should not go about telling you that your older way of playing it is wrong if you are not actually playing for them to dance to, anymore than you should tell them the speed they like to dance at is wrong.
Although it *is* considerably faster than it was back in the day.
That is a statement of fact, not "authenticity."
Just because they do things in Ireland a particular way is not the touchstone of "The Right" way to do something. It's just a current fashion, as older ways were just the current fashion in their day. If your concern is to be able to play for modern set dancers and sit in in a modern session in Dublin, than you will want to conform to the modern fashion. If your concern is to be "authentically" Irish you may choose any of the fashions that were prevelant at any time. If you don't care about being authentically Irish do whatever the bloody hell you want. Makes no nevermind to me.
As per that other thread I'm listening to The Duhks right now. I love 'em. I'm working on being able to play like me playing like Tanya.
I wouldn't go telling Jorma that his electrifonicated version of Walkin' Blues is wrong.
But I'd have to be an Idiot to tell Robert Johnson his version is wrong.
Like, he's dead and s***. Terminal fast women will do that to ya.
The Monty Python theme also works nicely as a slide. And at the end of the dance you get to do a big raspberry instead of the last note. We did it one year when the set dance fell on Halloween night.
Anyway, point taken. I wasn't really inferring that there's a wrong or right way, just that I was taking my cues from a variety of corroborated sources. I'm ignorant of the history of the hornpipe so I wasn't basing my chosen style for playing them on that. My hypothesis was based on conjecture relating to my own experience.
Having said all that -- I do like the contemporary tempo and lift they currently get from contemporary players I listen to. When someone comes to our session and plays one slow and swingy I'll join in unless it's to extreme. I would never tell them they were playing it wrong, but I might point out that set dancers would find it undancable.
Quick Style Question
Quick Style Question
So, I went to my first session in about 3 years last night and had an utter blast. I've mostly been playing shanties and whatnot, and, while I did manage to write down the names of some of the songs, I had a quick question..
The recordings here of "The Boys of Bluehill" is swung... Is Harvest Home and Cooley's Reel generally played swung as well?
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Wynder
Re: Quick Style Question
"The Boys of Bluehill" and "Harvest Home" are hornpipes and have an accented long note short note pattern which I think is too deliberate to be described as swing, but I suppose this must depend on your own interpretation. I can't imagine "Cooley's Reel" played with any swing given the hectic pace it lends itself to but that might say more about my imaginative shortcomings than anything else.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by joe the bow
Re: Quick Style Question
Thanks, Joe... I appreciate the explanation.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Wynder
Re: Quick Style Question
I think all hornpipes are meant to be played with a dotted rythm with the accent on the 1 and 3. I do hear a lot of players blast through them as if they were reels, and I think that's less fun; doesn't break up the session mood, if you know what I mean. I also try to play hornpipes somewhat slowly. That's how dancers seem to like it.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Farr
Re: Quick Style Question
..and it gives the less experienced players a shot at playing up to speed, i.e. playing at all.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by ratbiscuit
Re: Quick Style Question
Ah... the hornpipe/swing/tempo issue raises its head. I spent most of my years playing hornpipes slow and with a swing until I started playing for set dancers. The set dancers would give us weird and dissatisfied looks and indicate they wanted it faster. This prompted me to study and review the recordings I had of hornpipes. I discovered that I was playing the same hornpipes I learned from recordings slower than they were recorded, and I was adding a healthy portion of swing as well. I also played closer attention to the musicians that came through the Plough and Stars here in SF when they would play horpipes and realized they were playing them faster and with less swing as well. Now I try to do the same -- and the set dancers are quite happy.
I have a hypothesis about this. For many years while I was learning ITM I couldn't play the reels up to speed, (like many of my local cohorts,) and the tempo was actually more like hornpipe tempo really. Then when we played hornpipes we played even slower, and once you get that slow it's easier to play with more swing. If we didn't do this there would have been no difference between the reels and the horpipes regarding tempo. The added swing also helped to distinguish the hornpipes from the reels. Now that we have the reels up to speed we can play the hornpipes more like the Irish folks do and still give them their own distinction. How much swing you want to put in is a matter of taste and style.
Having said all that... when we play for step dancers, as opposed to set dancers, the step dancers like the slow and swingy hornpipes sometimes.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Quick Style Question
Because the hornpipe is a step dance for untrained dancers.
Even your step dancers are likely dancing rather faster than would have been done traditionally; and your older style of playing was probably more in line with the older style of playing.
Recordings are great sources of tunes, but they are lousy sources for judging tempo. They're done at recording speed.
There's one very well known recording of a hornpipe, however, that was done at something resembling a proper pace and swing, because it was done in the 30s to accompany people who were actually dancing to it. In fact, they even filmed the dancers and you can likely find a copy of it in your local video store or library.
The hornpipe is called:
We're Off to See the Wizard
KFG
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: Quick Style Question
Actually, that's a slide.
The tempos on the recordings were corroborated by the musicians from Ireland that would pass through, so I wasn't basing it solely on the recordings. But I'm going to take my cues from living and breathing Irish players I listen to rather than historic recordings. If I wanted to recreate a particular time and place based on a recorded source -- fine. But I'm not going to tell the set dancers that they're wrong, and I'm not going to tell someone like Andrew McNamara that he's playing them wrong.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Quick Style Question
"Actually, that's a slide.
"
D'oh! <-- Slaps head
It's bloody obvious if you actually pick up a fiddle and play it, isn't it? I shall put on the pointy hat and go sit in the corner for half an hour while playing slides. I obviously don't play them enough.
Oh, by the way, what was your point about Irish music not having a pop carrier again?
"The tempos on the recordings were corroborated by the musicians from Ireland that would pass through, so I wasn't basing it solely on the recordings."
Of the sort that make and/or listen to recordings? Can you say "feedback loop"?
"If I wanted to recreate a particular time and place based on a recorded source -- fine."
Quite honestly I don't care if you play everything as a polka while standing on your head. I might even be interested in watching that. I wasn't being one of the Trad Police.
"But I'm not going to tell the set dancers that they're wrong, and I'm not going to tell someone like Andrew McNamara that he's playing them wrong."
Well good, that proves you're not an idiot. Not that I even considered that possibility at this point.
However, my point was not meant to imply that they are wrong, but that your previous way of playing was not, which is a rather different point.
In other words, the set dancers should not go about telling you that your older way of playing it is wrong if you are not actually playing for them to dance to, anymore than you should tell them the speed they like to dance at is wrong.
Although it *is* considerably faster than it was back in the day.
That is a statement of fact, not "authenticity."
Just because they do things in Ireland a particular way is not the touchstone of "The Right" way to do something. It's just a current fashion, as older ways were just the current fashion in their day. If your concern is to be able to play for modern set dancers and sit in in a modern session in Dublin, than you will want to conform to the modern fashion. If your concern is to be "authentically" Irish you may choose any of the fashions that were prevelant at any time. If you don't care about being authentically Irish do whatever the bloody hell you want. Makes no nevermind to me.
As per that other thread I'm listening to The Duhks right now. I love 'em. I'm working on being able to play like me playing like Tanya.
I wouldn't go telling Jorma that his electrifonicated version of Walkin' Blues is wrong.
But I'd have to be an Idiot to tell Robert Johnson his version is wrong.
Like, he's dead and s***. Terminal fast women will do that to ya.
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: Quick Style Question
I'll have whatever KFG is drinking!
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Farr
Re: Quick Style Question
Coffee. Lots of it. With a side of terminal fast women a fraction my age. One of 'em has a thing for Glocks.
May I rest in peace.
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: Quick Style Question
Too much coffee from the looks of things. I can't make heads nor tail of that last rant. What Are You Saying?
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Farr
Re: Quick Style Question
Play it the way you like it.
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: Quick Style Question
That clears things up...
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Farr
Re: Quick Style Question
The Monty Python theme also works nicely as a slide. And at the end of the dance you get to do a big raspberry instead of the last note. We did it one year when the set dance fell on Halloween night.
Anyway, point taken. I wasn't really inferring that there's a wrong or right way, just that I was taking my cues from a variety of corroborated sources. I'm ignorant of the history of the hornpipe so I wasn't basing my chosen style for playing them on that. My hypothesis was based on conjecture relating to my own experience.
Having said all that -- I do like the contemporary tempo and lift they currently get from contemporary players I listen to. When someone comes to our session and plays one slow and swingy I'll join in unless it's to extreme. I would never tell them they were playing it wrong, but I might point out that set dancers would find it undancable.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Quick Style Question
Sorry about the redundant redundancy of my previous post.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Quick Style Question
I feel a circular song coming on.
Where have all the dancers gone . . .
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG