But can any (if any) musical talent skip a generation due to *epigenetic* factors? This is where other molecules attach onto the DNA and affect their expression downstream, generation wise.
Who knows? First of all you'll have to believe that musical ability has a genetic component, albeit derived from many different loci. Well, I would think so. But I guess there are many factors involved.
Danny i agree.
Neither of my parents had a musical apptitude (Something i very much regret!) but my paternal grandmother was very musical as were all her siblings.
I very much see music as a genetic trait but getting down to the whole nature/nurture debate i definately think that encouragement has a large part to play.
I was fortunate that my parents recognised the value of music enough to encourage (and finance!) my musical development as a child.
OK they did it through the classical route much to my annoyance now but thats a debate for another day!
i'm no boffin so i can't join in your science-y natter but father is a very capable musician but my mother is not. i have an unidentical twin who doesn't play anything at all.
make of that what you will.
Well, I did say it might not be your cuppa tea. The sciencey natter is just for those interested in a wee bit of further reading on this fascinating topic IMHO.
My dad and his siblings are all musical, my mom is musical now and her brother was a musical genius if slightly unstable. My siblings and I are all musically inclined. So no generation's been skipped here.
Well, rats, Danny! I wanted to read the article in Science, but you have to subscribe first.
I've been very curious and mostly skeptical about suggestions that the human species is still evolving in any significant way. I have a hard time seeing the mechanisms for natural selection. What evolutionalry processes are at work for the brain to be evolving?
My mom's side isn't musical at all. Oh, they enjoy listening to a bit now and then, but that's as far as it goes. My dad's side isn't a whole lot better. I have one blood-uncle who is a great musician and his wife and their kids are all great, too. Everyone in my immediate family pretty much play CD's and the radio.
So, my musical-family-history is all very much scattered.
Bob Himself: Nature's script for the human species has shifted focus from the individual to the whole. We are now evolving as a collective mass, which requires devolution on an individual basis. And evidence for that is all around you! (except on this site, where the smart guys like you and Danny are helping us all dig our heels in and resist being dragged down)
One mechanism for evolution is natural mutation: say, if a stray ultraviolet ray happened to shear a rung off a DNA ladder that determined inner ear/auditory area of the brain development and perfect pitch to became an inherited trait. Not sure if that’s a survival trait, though – might be quite the opposite. But if you became a better musician, then of course you’d be more attractive to the opposite sex and then you’d have a better chance to breed.
Human beings are definitely still evolving. Natural selection accounts for the huge increase pretty blondes. That, and commercially available dyes. And commercially available beer.
I'm with cuchulain54. To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke, the aggregate IQ of the planet is constant, and the population is increasing.
Of course it skips a generation. One generation is Musical, and the next decides it really needs to earn some money...
...the one after has the leisure to concentrate on music, and the cycle repeats.
Referring to the "lack of natural selection", that in itself influences evolution. People that would have once died before reproducing now live to spawn. Further, certain mental traits seem to be genetically influenced if not determined. One of the arguments against self-regulated population control is that responsibility gets bred out of the gene pool.
So basically we are slowly evolving (notice that the word means changing, although it is usually assumed to have a positive connotation) to a species that will have the trait of breeding early, often and irresponsibly. This might explain much of popular music.
Some "musical" genetic traits can be a real handicap for serious musicians. Perfect pitch is often more of a problem than a help because it's so rare for some instruments and/or musicians, even at the highest talent levels, to be really in tune. This can drive someone with perfect pitch bonkers.
As for skipping a generation, my mother was Colorado state champion on the drums (and turned down an offer to join one of the big swing bands touring the country at the time), and my teenage son is an amazing guitarist. So obviously musical talent skips a generation.....
My parents (deceased) were both very musical, Dad a performing pianist, and a church organist in later life, and Mum a piano teacher right up into old age. My mother's mother, grandfather and great-grandfather were musical, the g-father and g-g-father both being violinists. I now play my mother's g-g-father's violin - my g-g-g-father, if you're with me . No information about music in Dad's family, so presumably there wasn't much to talk about.
My brother doesn't play an instrument, neither does my son, although both like listening; but my daughter plays the cello. Time will tell whether her young children are musical. A few weeks ago I saw my elder grand-daughter, then 18 months old, beating time very accurately indeed to a cd of a Vivaldi cello concerto which she was obviously enjoying. So who knows?
I've often thought, since you mentioned Lundy a while back, that in your profession you might know some of these fantastic people involved in genome research.
They had just completed some charting (?)of the human genomme to do with cystic fibrosis, I think, and the whole team came over to Lundy to celebrate and have a grand time together. This would have been possibly late 01 but methinks early 02.
I do know some fairly big scientists, Brian, but a) I'm certainly not one of them and b) you know what the name drop-cops are like round this neighbourhood.It would have been interesting to see that gang you mentioned over on Lundy!
Sorry Bob himself, I didn't realise the Science article was subscriber-only. If I can dig out similar, I'll post it.
Many replies here are very interesting. The ones referring to the human brain still evolving, incl fidkid's. Yeah you're right, wrt eg UV causing natural mutations as a source of evolutionary change. And you touched on the process of sexual selection as opposed to environmental selection.
Would I be accused of being an optimist if I proposed that sexual selection, ie, whatever phenotype (the observable characteristics of an individual) you display as a result of your genotype (the genetic constitution of an individual) that may make you sexier, hence you'll have more progeny, that maybe societal norms will influence their promotion? If the societal norms include civilisation ones, ie civility, altruism, intelligence, industry, etc., as opposed to greed, belligerence, wantonness etc., then maybe we ARE evolving better brains, thus better people.
And Tommy, this boffiny sciencey natter *does* impinge on historical philosophy, because due to the above statement, maybe I'm an ameliorist, in historical terms.
But, going back to the title of the thread, Skipping a Generation, I'm sorry I don't think I made the point about this one strongly enough. Epigenetics basically means *upon* the gene and what happens is that when a females eggs are forming (at her birth) some of the DNA becomes methylated, meaning other smaller methyl molecules stick onto DNA, and those bits don't get expressed, ie they're dormant. But they are still there, and maybe as non-methylated ones they get expressed in the next generation. If, as I believe, that there is a genetic component to musical ability, (but not just *one* gene coding for it), then something gets switched off for a generation only to reappear in the next one. Hope that clarifies things.
Oh and I meant to add, when male sperms are forming at puberty, the same thing happens, ie methylation of DNA. And I also meant to say, and this is important, WHAT genes are affected are dependent on the environment. So stressfull situations can produce stressed out children, who were never stressed themselves!
Horizon explores the ghost world in your genes - the hidden layer of inheritance that lies in every cell of our body. From IVF treatment, to post traumatic stress disorder, to the food our grandparents ate, the controversial science of epigenetics could change the way we think about inheritance forever.
At the heart of this new field is a simple but contentious idea - the idea that our genes have a 'memory'. That the lives of your grandparents - the air they breathed, the food they ate, even the things they saw - can directly affect you, decades later, despite never experiencing these things yourself. And that the things you do in your lifetime will in turn affect your grandchildren.
Epigenetics represents a major shift in thinking from the conventional view that DNA carries all our heritable information, and that nothing an individual does in their lifetime will be biologically passed to their children. It is a heresy to most scientists, calling into question the way we have viewed the DNA sequence - the very cornerstone on which modern biology sits.
But scientists have now found a whole new layer to our genes beyond the DNA. They have revealed how epigenetic 'switches' control the genes themselves, and that these switches can be turned on and off by environmental factors like nutrition and stress. It reports the startling first evidence that this can cause heritable effects in humans.
I'm afraid I'm a behaviourist when it comes to music. I believe that anyone can learn to play tunes - all they need is the right reinforcement.
Although my Da played a bit on the melodeon and the harmonica, I doubt if it influenced my flute playing - otherwise I'd be playing 'nearer my god to thee' and 'be thou my vision' every Sunday morning
When it comes to MY playing, I'd probably agree with you, Breandan. I was thinking more of *genuinely* talented individuals. Where did they get it from?
I wonder if you could get it from a blood transfusion?
Dad - tone deaf
Mother - liked music
Paternal Grandfather - Highland Bagpipes
Paternal Great Grandfather - Fiddle
I think we can all be encouraged by our parents, to enjoy music as we grow up. However, I think what your asking about DM is sheer natural brilliance, isn't it?
Anybody here fit into that category?
Come on now, don't be shy?
Hey, Harry Bradley pops in here now & again.
It'd be interesting to hear from him on this, wouldn't it?
Neither of my parents played any instruments but both loved music. My mother had a beautiful voice, and the first songs I knew were The Lark in the Clear Air and The Sally Gardens.
My maternal Granny had a little melodeon which she got out now and then.
When I started playing, in my twenties, The question arose as to why I'd chosen the flute. It came out that my great Uncle Jamie, (Granny's brother) had been a flute player in Forkhill, S. Armagh.
my great grandma played fiddle, my grandma plays fiddle, and my uncle plays flute. each one has gotten better than the one before them.
of course, me included, we 3 are the only 3 still playing music in our family on both sides of the pond as we can tell. so maybe we're weeding ourselves out genetically (and no, i'm not better than them).
Ron, Bobh, WillH, Breandan, fidkid, TaoCat, and others: Many thanks for taking the time to digest then think then answer about the stuff which I've merely reported, plus furthered my own little musing extrapolations. I do think, almost constantly (between tunes, how much I love me fambly and how to pay the mortgage, etc) about dumb stuff like this. Being thus so preoccupied, I guess I'll never get rich. Or famous. But hey. There ye go.
Oh hi Bob, let's say us wierdfolk stick together, ok?
Ermm...My east lung has a giraffes nostril coated onto the hard drive of its plectrum, but only on Saturdays and that was at the leafy perennial barbecue, so whether it festers when out walkies or not is a case for the Tocharian Language buzzword afficionados, but they won't be here till three weeks Monday, bless their purely iberian crypts of lieberkuhn, so said the greatest electronic flatulating......
Skipping a Generation...
Skipping a Generation...
This may not be your cuppa tea, but it fascinates me endlessly.
Does musical ability have a genetic input?
Of the 20-30,000 genes in the human genome (yes, that's all! the Human Genome Project people were surprised to discover this was such a low number - they predicted 100,000 genes, but now that they've sequenced the whole thing it turns out to be only 20-odd thousand http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1164684.stm
, 98% of which we share with Chimps: http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/chimpgenome/index.html )...yeah of those 20-odd thou, about half are expressed in the brain. And that's still evolving! : http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/309/5741/1717
Here's a couple of little links with comments regarding inherited musical talent:
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/genomics/1_identity/nature.html
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/2003_01_20_time.html
And here's some wierd genetic music to soothe your aching brain should you get through reading all that lot:
http://www.whozoo.org/mac/Music/samples.htm
But can any (if any) musical talent skip a generation due to *epigenetic* factors? This is where other molecules attach onto the DNA and affect their expression downstream, generation wise.
http://www.wsunews.wsu.edu/detail.asp?StoryID=5510
Who knows? First of all you'll have to believe that musical ability has a genetic component, albeit derived from many different loci. Well, I would think so. But I guess there are many factors involved.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Danny i agree.
Neither of my parents had a musical apptitude (Something i very much regret!) but my paternal grandmother was very musical as were all her siblings.
I very much see music as a genetic trait but getting down to the whole nature/nurture debate i definately think that encouragement has a large part to play.
I was fortunate that my parents recognised the value of music enough to encourage (and finance!) my musical development as a child.
OK they did it through the classical route much to my annoyance now but thats a debate for another day!
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by jfiddlerh
Re: Skipping a Generation...
i'm no boffin so i can't join in your science-y natter but father is a very capable musician but my mother is not. i have an unidentical twin who doesn't play anything at all.
make of that what you will.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by tommy_wintle
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Well, I did say it might not be your cuppa tea. The sciencey natter is just for those interested in a wee bit of further reading on this fascinating topic IMHO.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
My dad and his siblings are all musical, my mom is musical now and her brother was a musical genius if slightly unstable. My siblings and I are all musically inclined. So no generation's been skipped here.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Well, rats, Danny! I wanted to read the article in Science, but you have to subscribe first.
I've been very curious and mostly skeptical about suggestions that the human species is still evolving in any significant way. I have a hard time seeing the mechanisms for natural selection. What evolutionalry processes are at work for the brain to be evolving?
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Skipping a Generation...
My mom's side isn't musical at all. Oh, they enjoy listening to a bit now and then, but that's as far as it goes. My dad's side isn't a whole lot better. I have one blood-uncle who is a great musician and his wife and their kids are all great, too. Everyone in my immediate family pretty much play CD's and the radio.
So, my musical-family-history is all very much scattered.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by TJ
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Bob Himself: Nature's script for the human species has shifted focus from the individual to the whole. We are now evolving as a collective mass, which requires devolution on an individual basis. And evidence for that is all around you! (except on this site, where the smart guys like you and Danny are helping us all dig our heels in and resist being dragged down)
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by cuchulain54
Re: Skipping a Generation...
You may be right, cuchulain, except for the part about me being smart.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Skipping a Generation...
One mechanism for evolution is natural mutation: say, if a stray ultraviolet ray happened to shear a rung off a DNA ladder that determined inner ear/auditory area of the brain development and perfect pitch to became an inherited trait. Not sure if that’s a survival trait, though – might be quite the opposite. But if you became a better musician, then of course you’d be more attractive to the opposite sex and then you’d have a better chance to breed.
Human beings are definitely still evolving. Natural selection accounts for the huge increase pretty blondes. That, and commercially available dyes. And commercially available beer.
I'm with cuchulain54. To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke, the aggregate IQ of the planet is constant, and the population is increasing.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by fidkid
Re: Skipping a Generation...
increase "in" pretty. duhhhhh is me.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by fidkid
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Of course it skips a generation. One generation is Musical, and the next decides it really needs to earn some money...
...the one after has the leisure to concentrate on music, and the cycle repeats.
# Posted on November 10th 2005 by Innocent Bystander
Re: Skipping a Generation...
lol, I like the logic
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by TJ
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Referring to the "lack of natural selection", that in itself influences evolution. People that would have once died before reproducing now live to spawn. Further, certain mental traits seem to be genetically influenced if not determined. One of the arguments against self-regulated population control is that responsibility gets bred out of the gene pool.
So basically we are slowly evolving (notice that the word means changing, although it is usually assumed to have a positive connotation) to a species that will have the trait of breeding early, often and irresponsibly. This might explain much of popular music.
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Interesting reading, Danny.
Some "musical" genetic traits can be a real handicap for serious musicians. Perfect pitch is often more of a problem than a help because it's so rare for some instruments and/or musicians, even at the highest talent levels, to be really in tune. This can drive someone with perfect pitch bonkers.
As for skipping a generation, my mother was Colorado state champion on the drums (and turned down an offer to join one of the big swing bands touring the country at the time), and my teenage son is an amazing guitarist. So obviously musical talent skips a generation.....
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Skipping a Generation...
My parents (deceased) were both very musical, Dad a performing pianist, and a church organist in later life, and Mum a piano teacher right up into old age. My mother's mother, grandfather and great-grandfather were musical, the g-father and g-g-father both being violinists. I now play my mother's g-g-father's violin - my g-g-g-father, if you're with me
. No information about music in Dad's family, so presumably there wasn't much to talk about.
My brother doesn't play an instrument, neither does my son, although both like listening; but my daughter plays the cello. Time will tell whether her young children are musical. A few weeks ago I saw my elder grand-daughter, then 18 months old, beating time very accurately indeed to a cd of a Vivaldi cello concerto which she was obviously enjoying. So who knows?
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Hi Danny!
I've often thought, since you mentioned Lundy a while back, that in your profession you might know some of these fantastic people involved in genome research.
They had just completed some charting (?)of the human genomme to do with cystic fibrosis, I think, and the whole team came over to Lundy to celebrate and have a grand time together. This would have been possibly late 01 but methinks early 02.
Brianx
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Thanks for the replies, folks.
I do know some fairly big scientists, Brian, but a) I'm certainly not one of them and b) you know what the name drop-cops are like round this neighbourhood.It would have been interesting to see that gang you mentioned over on Lundy!
Sorry Bob himself, I didn't realise the Science article was subscriber-only. If I can dig out similar, I'll post it.
Many replies here are very interesting. The ones referring to the human brain still evolving, incl fidkid's. Yeah you're right, wrt eg UV causing natural mutations as a source of evolutionary change. And you touched on the process of sexual selection as opposed to environmental selection.
Would I be accused of being an optimist if I proposed that sexual selection, ie, whatever phenotype (the observable characteristics of an individual) you display as a result of your genotype (the genetic constitution of an individual) that may make you sexier, hence you'll have more progeny, that maybe societal norms will influence their promotion? If the societal norms include civilisation ones, ie civility, altruism, intelligence, industry, etc., as opposed to greed, belligerence, wantonness etc., then maybe we ARE evolving better brains, thus better people.
And Tommy, this boffiny sciencey natter *does* impinge on historical philosophy, because due to the above statement, maybe I'm an ameliorist, in historical terms.
But, going back to the title of the thread, Skipping a Generation, I'm sorry I don't think I made the point about this one strongly enough. Epigenetics basically means *upon* the gene and what happens is that when a females eggs are forming (at her birth) some of the DNA becomes methylated, meaning other smaller methyl molecules stick onto DNA, and those bits don't get expressed, ie they're dormant. But they are still there, and maybe as non-methylated ones they get expressed in the next generation. If, as I believe, that there is a genetic component to musical ability, (but not just *one* gene coding for it), then something gets switched off for a generation only to reappear in the next one. Hope that clarifies things.
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Oh and I meant to add, when male sperms are forming at puberty, the same thing happens, ie methylation of DNA. And I also meant to say, and this is important, WHAT genes are affected are dependent on the environment. So stressfull situations can produce stressed out children, who were never stressed themselves!
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
BBC Horizon did a programme on it a while back:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml
And here's some of the spiel:
Horizon explores the ghost world in your genes - the hidden layer of inheritance that lies in every cell of our body. From IVF treatment, to post traumatic stress disorder, to the food our grandparents ate, the controversial science of epigenetics could change the way we think about inheritance forever.
At the heart of this new field is a simple but contentious idea - the idea that our genes have a 'memory'. That the lives of your grandparents - the air they breathed, the food they ate, even the things they saw - can directly affect you, decades later, despite never experiencing these things yourself. And that the things you do in your lifetime will in turn affect your grandchildren.
Epigenetics represents a major shift in thinking from the conventional view that DNA carries all our heritable information, and that nothing an individual does in their lifetime will be biologically passed to their children. It is a heresy to most scientists, calling into question the way we have viewed the DNA sequence - the very cornerstone on which modern biology sits.
But scientists have now found a whole new layer to our genes beyond the DNA. They have revealed how epigenetic 'switches' control the genes themselves, and that these switches can be turned on and off by environmental factors like nutrition and stress. It reports the startling first evidence that this can cause heritable effects in humans.
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Didn''t Johann Sebastian Bach ask the same question? Has nothing changed?
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Cath
Re: Skipping a Generation...
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Cath
Re: Skipping a Generation...
I'm afraid I'm a behaviourist when it comes to music. I believe that anyone can learn to play tunes - all they need is the right reinforcement.
Although my Da played a bit on the melodeon and the harmonica, I doubt if it influenced my flute playing - otherwise I'd be playing 'nearer my god to thee' and 'be thou my vision' every Sunday morning
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by breandan
Re: Skipping a Generation...
When it comes to MY playing, I'd probably agree with you, Breandan. I was thinking more of *genuinely* talented individuals. Where did they get it from?
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
I wonder if you could get it from a blood transfusion?
Dad - tone deaf
Mother - liked music
Paternal Grandfather - Highland Bagpipes
Paternal Great Grandfather - Fiddle
I think we can all be encouraged by our parents, to enjoy music as we grow up. However, I think what your asking about DM is sheer natural brilliance, isn't it?
Anybody here fit into that category?
Come on now, don't be shy?
Hey, Harry Bradley pops in here now & again.
It'd be interesting to hear from him on this, wouldn't it?
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Bob himself, let's hope you can access this one:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7974
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
So I wonder if I misheard the lass on the night I got arrested.
I thought she asked me "Is that a flute in your jeans?"
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Neither of my parents played any instruments but both loved music. My mother had a beautiful voice, and the first songs I knew were The Lark in the Clear Air and The Sally Gardens.
My maternal Granny had a little melodeon which she got out now and then.
When I started playing, in my twenties, The question arose as to why I'd chosen the flute. It came out that my great Uncle Jamie, (Granny's brother) had been a flute player in Forkhill, S. Armagh.
Brianx
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Danny - Thank you, sir. Very interesting.
# Posted on November 11th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Danny, what a great thread - very interesting stuff.
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Ron P
Re: Skipping a Generation...
my great grandma played fiddle, my grandma plays fiddle, and my uncle plays flute. each one has gotten better than the one before them.
of course, me included, we 3 are the only 3 still playing music in our family on both sides of the pond as we can tell. so maybe we're weeding ourselves out genetically (and no, i'm not better than them).
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by daiv
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Ron, Bobh, WillH, Breandan, fidkid, TaoCat, and others: Many thanks for taking the time to digest then think then answer about the stuff which I've merely reported, plus furthered my own little musing extrapolations. I do think, almost constantly (between tunes, how much I love me fambly and how to pay the mortgage, etc) about dumb stuff like this. Being thus so preoccupied, I guess I'll never get rich. Or famous. But hey. There ye go.
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
BTW, did anyone manage to get to listen to the genetic music? I liked it - but then, I'm a wierdo!
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
I just listened to several of those samples and I liked them, too.
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Oh hi Bob, let's say us wierdfolk stick together, ok?
Ermm...My east lung has a giraffes nostril coated onto the hard drive of its plectrum, but only on Saturdays and that was at the leafy perennial barbecue, so whether it festers when out walkies or not is a case for the Tocharian Language buzzword afficionados, but they won't be here till three weeks Monday, bless their purely iberian crypts of lieberkuhn, so said the greatest electronic flatulating......
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Skipping a Generation...
2 to the power of 267709 to one and falling...
# Posted on November 14th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Skipping a Generation...
Will we see the abc’s to the Drosophila Protein in the tunes section soon? I think it’s a strathspey.
# Posted on November 14th 2005 by fidkid