For all of you fluters out there.... I have a question about the position of the embrochure hole in relation to the finger holes. Specifically, is there a standard position for aligning the center of the embrochure hole to the tone holes? I have noticed that when I play other players' flutes, the head joint is rolled outward, positioned slightly beyond the center of the finger holes. When I play, I have the head joint rolled inward. I do play with a forceful stream of air, so perhaps I am adjusting the pitch somewhat given the pressure I am using? I'd be grateful for any insights you may have to offer.
I have the same question, except I was thinking more of comfort for my wrists--rolling the head joint "out" gives a more relaxed left wrist position, while rolling it "in" relieves the kink in my right wrist. What do you experienced players prefer?
Also, a somewhat related question: a trad player told me to blow harder to go to the upper octave, while a classical/baroque player said to shift my embouchure toward the far edge of the hole and NOT blow harder. Or is there some other technique? What do you recommend?
Jack Coen suggested easing off on the pressure for the upper octave and saving one's breath for the points in a tune where you really need it, or where you want to emphasize a particular note or passage. I have also heard the same advice regarding the shifting of the air flow toward the far edge of the hole.
yeah, so far I prefer shifting my embouchure because overblowing makes the upper octave sharp (not to mention unecessarily louder). I still need to work on the prehensile agility my lips apparently need to do the octave shift cleanly.
Arbo, over some 20 years I have gone from an highly exaggerated Tansey posture -- flute on shoulder at 45 degree angle, embouchure rolled very far forward to a posture (last 15 years) with the far embouchure edge more or less centred along the middle of the finger holes. When I occasionally revert to my original posture though in a less eccentric manner, I find a lot more freedom on the top hand, but then have neck problems!!! When I was learning, as opposed to being taught, I was told "eyes up" to play high octave, "eyes down" to play low octave -- believe it or not, this advice worked and I have always been able to leap octaves a la Tansey (not that I use it all that often). I think you are maybe seeing too many problems with your own style and technique. I know many (northern) flute players and they all play their own way and very well too. Perhaps this is an advantage of Irish "learning" as opposed to being taught or "studying" flute as they so often put it in the US. I think fluters (even really good ones) in the US tend to be more influenced by star players, tend to be more imitational and overconcerned about "proper" or "correct" technique rather than the music produced by whatever technique. I have tried to "improve" my technique occasionally, but find myself always going to back to what suits me and it seems to be pretty acceptable to my fellow musicians.
Longnote, I tend to agree with all you have said... however, I posted this question because I think I am hearing a difference in my tone by having the flute positioned, as you describe, "a highly exaggerated Tansey posture." I find this position uncomfortable despite the perceived tone benefits. When I have the head joint rolled in my wrist (upper), seems to be more relaxed, not to mention my neck!
What you want to do is increase the pressure of the air, to jump to the second (or third) octave. One way is to blow harder (adjusting the angle, so you don't go sharp); another way is to make the stream narrower (so you have the same amount of air going through, but higher pressure). This is the way we learn when we study Classical, and it makes sense, because you don't want to sound always louder on the second octave. The thing is, once you learn it becomes muscle memory and you don't think about it, and it's very hard to explain with words. In the usual cryptic explanation, it's said that the low octave requires more air, but the high octave requires more support.
It's also a good thing to be able to keep your intonation by varying the angle of blowing but without having to shift the position of your mouth much. Michel Debost said that the flutist who has to shift his embochure to play the low notes is like the pianist who has to move the bench to play the low notes.
I usually align the embochure hole with the finger holes, but in trad flute sometimes i turn it inside just a little bit (like Imnotirish). Find the position where your *fingers* will be the least uncomfortable. Unless you like pain, that is.
As for the flute position, for me it makes sense to have the airway as straight and free as possible. I can't play with the flute resting on my shoulder. However, a lot of people play extremely well that way, so do whatever works best for you.
Arbo, I will, once I get settled in from moving house, try to spend some time playing in my old way and compare to my current straight-backed, head up, "proper" posture and let you know what I think. As i get older (and it happens every minute), I feel the stress in my top hand more and more after several hours of playing. Playing on the shoulder again does relax it, but i am not sure about what happens to the tone and volume, I don't think I have noticed any particular differences, but I will observe and make notes! I am a fairly loud player to begin with. To be continued ...
Johann Joachim Quantz, writing an Essay of a method for playing the Transverse Flute for "The most Serene, Great and Mighty Prince and Lord Frederick, King in Prussia", in 1752 states that 'The headpice must be turned in towards the mouth so that it deviates from the straight line approximately the distance of the section of the mouth hole.'
I find this to be the best position as it means that your neck can be held to allow for maximum breath control. I find that rolling the head in the other direction means that your kneck is craned and obstructs proper breathing.
To move from the lower to upper octave does not require forcing the breathing - it can be achieved simply by rolling the flute slightly towards your mouth.
It can sometimes, however, be very effective in a session to force or overblow a note. Providing you don't do it all the time it can add a sense of lift and urgency to the music.
A flute question....
A flute question....
For all of you fluters out there.... I have a question about the position of the embrochure hole in relation to the finger holes. Specifically, is there a standard position for aligning the center of the embrochure hole to the tone holes? I have noticed that when I play other players' flutes, the head joint is rolled outward, positioned slightly beyond the center of the finger holes. When I play, I have the head joint rolled inward. I do play with a forceful stream of air, so perhaps I am adjusting the pitch somewhat given the pressure I am using? I'd be grateful for any insights you may have to offer.
Arbo
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by Imnotirish
Re: A flute question....
I have the same question, except I was thinking more of comfort for my wrists--rolling the head joint "out" gives a more relaxed left wrist position, while rolling it "in" relieves the kink in my right wrist. What do you experienced players prefer?
Also, a somewhat related question: a trad player told me to blow harder to go to the upper octave, while a classical/baroque player said to shift my embouchure toward the far edge of the hole and NOT blow harder. Or is there some other technique? What do you recommend?
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: A flute question....
Will,
Jack Coen suggested easing off on the pressure for the upper octave and saving one's breath for the points in a tune where you really need it, or where you want to emphasize a particular note or passage. I have also heard the same advice regarding the shifting of the air flow toward the far edge of the hole.
Arbo
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by Imnotirish
Re: A flute question....
yeah, so far I prefer shifting my embouchure because overblowing makes the upper octave sharp (not to mention unecessarily louder). I still need to work on the prehensile agility my lips apparently need to do the octave shift cleanly.
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: A flute question....
Arbo, over some 20 years I have gone from an highly exaggerated Tansey posture -- flute on shoulder at 45 degree angle, embouchure rolled very far forward to a posture (last 15 years) with the far embouchure edge more or less centred along the middle of the finger holes. When I occasionally revert to my original posture though in a less eccentric manner, I find a lot more freedom on the top hand, but then have neck problems!!! When I was learning, as opposed to being taught, I was told "eyes up" to play high octave, "eyes down" to play low octave -- believe it or not, this advice worked and I have always been able to leap octaves a la Tansey (not that I use it all that often). I think you are maybe seeing too many problems with your own style and technique. I know many (northern) flute players and they all play their own way and very well too. Perhaps this is an advantage of Irish "learning" as opposed to being taught or "studying" flute as they so often put it in the US. I think fluters (even really good ones) in the US tend to be more influenced by star players, tend to be more imitational and overconcerned about "proper" or "correct" technique rather than the music produced by whatever technique. I have tried to "improve" my technique occasionally, but find myself always going to back to what suits me and it seems to be pretty acceptable to my fellow musicians.
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by LongNote
Re: A flute question....
Longnote, I tend to agree with all you have said... however, I posted this question because I think I am hearing a difference in my tone by having the flute positioned, as you describe, "a highly exaggerated Tansey posture." I find this position uncomfortable despite the perceived tone benefits. When I have the head joint rolled in my wrist (upper), seems to be more relaxed, not to mention my neck!
Arbo
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by Imnotirish
Second octave, posture, etc
What you want to do is increase the pressure of the air, to jump to the second (or third) octave. One way is to blow harder (adjusting the angle, so you don't go sharp); another way is to make the stream narrower (so you have the same amount of air going through, but higher pressure). This is the way we learn when we study Classical, and it makes sense, because you don't want to sound always louder on the second octave. The thing is, once you learn it becomes muscle memory and you don't think about it, and it's very hard to explain with words. In the usual cryptic explanation, it's said that the low octave requires more air, but the high octave requires more support.
It's also a good thing to be able to keep your intonation by varying the angle of blowing but without having to shift the position of your mouth much. Michel Debost said that the flutist who has to shift his embochure to play the low notes is like the pianist who has to move the bench to play the low notes.
I usually align the embochure hole with the finger holes, but in trad flute sometimes i turn it inside just a little bit (like Imnotirish). Find the position where your *fingers* will be the least uncomfortable. Unless you like pain, that is.
As for the flute position, for me it makes sense to have the airway as straight and free as possible. I can't play with the flute resting on my shoulder. However, a lot of people play extremely well that way, so do whatever works best for you.
g
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by glauber
Posture
I love the pictures in this page:
http://www.irishflutes.net/mef/hands.htm
especially the "optional posture: use with extreme caution!"
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by glauber
Re: A flute question....
Arbo, I will, once I get settled in from moving house, try to spend some time playing in my old way and compare to my current straight-backed, head up, "proper" posture and let you know what I think. As i get older (and it happens every minute), I feel the stress in my top hand more and more after several hours of playing. Playing on the shoulder again does relax it, but i am not sure about what happens to the tone and volume, I don't think I have noticed any particular differences, but I will observe and make notes! I am a fairly loud player to begin with. To be continued ...
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by LongNote
Re: A flute question....
Johann Joachim Quantz, writing an Essay of a method for playing the Transverse Flute for "The most Serene, Great and Mighty Prince and Lord Frederick, King in Prussia", in 1752 states that 'The headpice must be turned in towards the mouth so that it deviates from the straight line approximately the distance of the section of the mouth hole.'
I find this to be the best position as it means that your neck can be held to allow for maximum breath control. I find that rolling the head in the other direction means that your kneck is craned and obstructs proper breathing.
To move from the lower to upper octave does not require forcing the breathing - it can be achieved simply by rolling the flute slightly towards your mouth.
It can sometimes, however, be very effective in a session to force or overblow a note. Providing you don't do it all the time it can add a sense of lift and urgency to the music.
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by breandan
Re: A flute question....
Glauber,
thanks for the link. I don't believe I have ever reached the "optional" posture position, but hey, there's always room for improvement!
Arbo
# Posted on August 29th 2002 by Imnotirish