Just a 'simple' question posed in one of my upperdivision music theory classes. What do you think? How does this apply to traditional music and do the critera differ?
Doing my best imitation of Professor Joad --- what do you MEAN by "good music"?
I might say that good music is music that touches me; but some technically very good music leaves me quite cold.
I might say good music is music that makes me feel good; but then there are parts of Siegfried and Gotterdammerung that wouldn't qualify on that basis, yet are very good.
I guess I'm gonna pull out my favorite Louis Armstrong quote, which I've only used once before in my tenure here; "Man, if you gotta ask, you ain't ever gonna know."
Musicians who know the sweet spots of their instruments and know how to utilize them but are also aware of its limitations and make a conciencious effort not to force them
e.g a tenor banjo tuned GDAE playing a slow air or humours of tulla in C on the low G string does not sound as sweet as a mandolin doing the same thing, a whistle player trying to get that extra high note never reached before on the 'generation D' and a fiddle player trying to play 0.5mm away from the body end of the fingerboard is not always music to ones ears even though they have the dexterity to do it the accordeon players have come off lightly here for a change as they sound pretty sweet fast slow high or low
Ensembles playing in tune
Individuals playing solo with perfect ornamentation
An even balance in volume of instruments
Nice sounding instruments are very important as i have often heard great musicians playing not so great instruments and vice versa and it does make a difference
A good sound man on stage and in the studio to create ambience with digital FX like noise gate, E.Q. chorus, reverb, delay / echo, compression, exciters, etc..
A deliberatly left in slur or mistake keeps it sounding human but once is enough
Right on Ptarmigan - good music is when you can have a great time without having to go to upperdivision music theory classes!
(and that's not a swipe at you Erin - just saying how I enjoy it myself - good luck to you in your studies: BA in Celtic Studies Music Emphasis and BS in Geology - that combines to Rocks and Rolls - no?)
Music that doesn't make you wince or bore you. Music that can be enjoyed by both people who have played for years and the morons.... er, unenlightened folk who think that the only unit of ITM is the 'jig' and who have requested 'Danny Boy'.
Sorry. But seriously, just tunes that are played by someone who knows and enjoys what they're doing.
Music is 'good' when it's fun and is enjoyed. It's good when people aren't constantly preoccupied with right or wrong notes. It's good when someone plays something incredibly awesome and the audience is allowed to react and clap/holler/cheer/whatever without fear of reprisal. It's good when it opens someone's ears to music and shows them just how good it really is. It's good when people come together and play together and enjoy one another's company. It's good when someone walks away wishing that they didn't have to leave or swearing to come back next week. It's good when you see the light come on in someone's eyes for the first time and it's way more than good when someone gets to play with others for the first time. It's good when it's about the music and nothing more or less.
I think it really depends on your definition of "good". Who's point of view is this "good"? The audience or the person playing? Sorry, I've got too many questions before I can add anything.
I just read an article about wine, so I'm about to make a very pretentious comparison between alcohol and music. I apologize in advance.
I think alcohol and music both move on two levels. I'm presuming most of the people here enjoy alcohol for its 'slightly euphoric' effects, when it is drunk in moderate quantities. Alcohol increases sociability. Likewise, music gives us a slightly euphoric effect, so we love it when we can get outside ourselves, and be more worried about tapping our foot or clapping our hands in time than anything else in our lives. This type of alcohol or music is of the simplest kind--it's not bad, it's just not very complex, and stays mostly at the level of the emotions.
The second level is more one of intellectual enjoyment. When you drink a fine wine, you have to put some time, and often a quite a bit of money, into it to get something out. It requires time to get used to the subtleties of each wine and their particular flavors. You can also have only a couple sips and be quite happy, after you've perceived the beauty of a wine. With music, for example with a fugue by Bach, you need to be able to focus intensely on a very concentrated piece. You also usually need some training to see all the patterns, repetitions, variations, etc. present in just a couple seconds of music. The enjoyment of these types of wines and music lasts longer, though, because one can always understand the beauty behind the music. The enjoyment of one piece of music of the first type, on the other hand, doesn't usually last as long simply because it's harder to replicate that rush you experienced the first time.
I can appreciate that music is good even when I don't like it, as I'm sure everyone can, really. I wouldn't sit down and put on an album of classical guitar music but, when it's played properly or well - with great skill, I can appreciate that it's good.
Similarly more people than not wouldn't listen to the type of music that we all play, but most people would appreciate that when it's done well it's good.
That's not to say that rough arsed, dirty simple music can't be good.
that's not an easy question to answer...
Good musicians and players make good music. Sometimes people who aren't good musicians/players make good music, but technique, focused practice, and caring about what you're playing makes for good musicians anyway. Good musicians/players can take schlock music and make it "good", for a given definition of good.
And now I'm going back to Barbie-Pink dress hell...it's November!
Erin, are you coming down to Ft. Collins this month for the Brian Conway workshops and concerts? I'm out of town for Oireachtas, but hopefully you can make it!
i don't usually drink alcohol (yes, i can hear the gasps of horror!), but i swear i manage to get 'drunk' on good music. i get a total feeling of elation from live performances in particular - the atmposphere adds an extra dimension to the music. good music can make you feel something you can't explain. you feel connected to it.
heya flisstle - I guess that means you'd best not operate any heavy machinery or drive after tomorrow's session?
I think that a large part of any music's appeal is linked to a fundamental human trait, namely pattern recognition, which is why music's appeal is particular and subjective. Anything more than the simplest pattern needs training to be perceived, and satisfaction and pleasure come from recognising patterns.
Therefore, because I have trained my ear to hear ornamentation, rhythms, styles and phrasing in trad music, I can delight in the playing of good players a great deal more than five years ago, say, when I just heard trad as a confusing jumble of sounds (it's true, I did).
btw, my understanding of 'pattern' is not just about things being the same over time and space, but how they can also be subtly or obviously *not* the same.
This is not to say that complex is better. Complex can be intense and sublime. But simple can be elegant, too.
Nice, Q. My husband agrees with you totally. As little as two years ago he couldn't listen to Irish trad without tearing his hair out at the horribly busy jumble of notes. Now he asks me to play some of my trad cds, and is learning to play the music himself. He's learned to recognize the patterns.
which should explain the "basic" approach, although the science of it all is beyond me. It doesn't cover musicial *preference* or qualitative attributions, but that's where the idea of 'training', by which I mean enculturation and focus (coached or self-motivated), kicks in.
You probably already "get" all of this and are just having me on, but here it is spelled out:
In short, music is perceived as 'good', according to how it relates to what you already consider 'good'. And that is built on complex patterns that your subconscious interprets and processes.
The most basic musical pattern is probably the perennial favourite: the four/four beat. Others include the four bar phrase, the eight bar segment, sixteen bar tune.
Particular short phrases or runs of notes that are repeated within the same tune. If there are variations of patterns, then comes into play another another subconscious, sometimes conscious awareness of what the pattern suddenly isn't.
Perhaps the variations allow one melodic pattern to link with another melodic pattern; this is registered - and, because of the brain's instinctive drive to *follow* patterns that it recognises, it is appreciated. Layers upon layers upon layers of patterns.
And that's what it's all about! Clear as a mudlark, innit?
All I can say Q is - I'm glad I'm a simple Ptarmigan, rather than one of yer complicated Mudlarks!
It seems so simple, when we hear a simple jig in a session & we join in with it the 2nd, or least by the 3rd, time round.
In my case it's simply down to spending much of the past 30 odd years just listening very, very carefully & playing lots & lots, but mostly about my close attention to detail when listening & then reproducing what I hear.
I see the analogy of comparing what is good in music to what is good in wine, as it is rather hard to pin down the subtleties. Myself, however, I know nothing about wine, so I would have to say that ITM is good in more of a "nice cold pint with a good head on it, and a plate full of well cooked meat and potatoes alongside." Good stick to your ribs stuff!
What makes good music?
What makes good music?
Just a 'simple' question posed in one of my upperdivision music theory classes. What do you think? How does this apply to traditional music and do the critera differ?
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by esfiddle
Re: What makes good music?
If I like it, it's good music.
If I don't, it's not.
Period.
KFG
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by KFG
Re: What makes good music?
When it transcends the instrument and connects directly from one soul to another.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: What makes good music?
Ommm
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Dow
Re: What makes good music?
If you can dance to it or at least drink to it, it's good.
I suspect the criteria may differ......
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: What makes good music?
Doing my best imitation of Professor Joad --- what do you MEAN by "good music"?
I might say that good music is music that touches me; but some technically very good music leaves me quite cold.
I might say good music is music that makes me feel good; but then there are parts of Siegfried and Gotterdammerung that wouldn't qualify on that basis, yet are very good.
I guess I'm gonna pull out my favorite Louis Armstrong quote, which I've only used once before in my tenure here; "Man, if you gotta ask, you ain't ever gonna know."
And yes, that's a cop-out.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by sara g
Re: What makes good music?
Close harmoy when used sparingley
Musicians who know the sweet spots of their instruments and know how to utilize them but are also aware of its limitations and make a conciencious effort not to force them
e.g a tenor banjo tuned GDAE playing a slow air or humours of tulla in C on the low G string does not sound as sweet as a mandolin doing the same thing, a whistle player trying to get that extra high note never reached before on the 'generation D' and a fiddle player trying to play 0.5mm away from the body end of the fingerboard is not always music to ones ears even though they have the dexterity to do it the accordeon players have come off lightly here for a change as they sound pretty sweet fast slow high or low
Ensembles playing in tune
Individuals playing solo with perfect ornamentation
An even balance in volume of instruments
Nice sounding instruments are very important as i have often heard great musicians playing not so great instruments and vice versa and it does make a difference
A good sound man on stage and in the studio to create ambience with digital FX like noise gate, E.Q. chorus, reverb, delay / echo, compression, exciters, etc..
A deliberatly left in slur or mistake keeps it sounding human but once is enough
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: What makes good music?
Naw, forget about all that pretty, harmony stuff! Give me RAW, FILTHY, DIRTY, MUCKY ITM every time - ye canny beat it! Best music in the World!
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: What makes good music?
Right on Ptarmigan - good music is when you can have a great time without having to go to upperdivision music theory classes!
(and that's not a swipe at you Erin - just saying how I enjoy it myself - good luck to you in your studies: BA in Celtic Studies Music Emphasis and BS in Geology - that combines to Rocks and Rolls - no?)
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: What makes good music?
Music that doesn't make you wince or bore you. Music that can be enjoyed by both people who have played for years and the morons.... er, unenlightened folk who think that the only unit of ITM is the 'jig' and who have requested 'Danny Boy'.
Sorry. But seriously, just tunes that are played by someone who knows and enjoys what they're doing.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Zazzaliss
Re: What makes good music?
...and stuff that you can constantly reinterpret, rather than stuff that's "frozen forever" - that's why I do more folk and less classical now.
Oh, and it's good if you get to listen and even better if you get to join in.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: What makes good music?
If it's free, it's good.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Washoo
Re: What makes good music?
Music is 'good' when it's fun and is enjoyed. It's good when people aren't constantly preoccupied with right or wrong notes. It's good when someone plays something incredibly awesome and the audience is allowed to react and clap/holler/cheer/whatever without fear of reprisal. It's good when it opens someone's ears to music and shows them just how good it really is. It's good when people come together and play together and enjoy one another's company. It's good when someone walks away wishing that they didn't have to leave or swearing to come back next week. It's good when you see the light come on in someone's eyes for the first time and it's way more than good when someone gets to play with others for the first time. It's good when it's about the music and nothing more or less.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by musicfan
Re: What makes good music?
I think it really depends on your definition of "good". Who's point of view is this "good"? The audience or the person playing? Sorry, I've got too many questions before I can add anything.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by TJ
Re: What makes good music?
I just read an article about wine, so I'm about to make a very pretentious comparison between alcohol and music. I apologize in advance.
I think alcohol and music both move on two levels. I'm presuming most of the people here enjoy alcohol for its 'slightly euphoric' effects, when it is drunk in moderate quantities. Alcohol increases sociability. Likewise, music gives us a slightly euphoric effect, so we love it when we can get outside ourselves, and be more worried about tapping our foot or clapping our hands in time than anything else in our lives. This type of alcohol or music is of the simplest kind--it's not bad, it's just not very complex, and stays mostly at the level of the emotions.
The second level is more one of intellectual enjoyment. When you drink a fine wine, you have to put some time, and often a quite a bit of money, into it to get something out. It requires time to get used to the subtleties of each wine and their particular flavors. You can also have only a couple sips and be quite happy, after you've perceived the beauty of a wine. With music, for example with a fugue by Bach, you need to be able to focus intensely on a very concentrated piece. You also usually need some training to see all the patterns, repetitions, variations, etc. present in just a couple seconds of music. The enjoyment of these types of wines and music lasts longer, though, because one can always understand the beauty behind the music. The enjoyment of one piece of music of the first type, on the other hand, doesn't usually last as long simply because it's harder to replicate that rush you experienced the first time.
That's it, I hope that was pompous enough.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by smw
Re: What makes good music?
Whatever fits best in the moment. You just know if it's good.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by cathrynb
Re: What makes good music?
I can appreciate that music is good even when I don't like it, as I'm sure everyone can, really. I wouldn't sit down and put on an album of classical guitar music but, when it's played properly or well - with great skill, I can appreciate that it's good.
Similarly more people than not wouldn't listen to the type of music that we all play, but most people would appreciate that when it's done well it's good.
That's not to say that rough arsed, dirty simple music can't be good.
that's not an easy question to answer...
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by tommy_wintle
Re: What makes good music?
The loss of ego coupled with an open mind and the desire to let the music take you somewhere.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by ejsant
Re: What makes good music?
Good musicians and players make good music. Sometimes people who aren't good musicians/players make good music, but technique, focused practice, and caring about what you're playing makes for good musicians anyway. Good musicians/players can take schlock music and make it "good", for a given definition of good.
And now I'm going back to Barbie-Pink dress hell...it's November!
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Btw
Erin, are you coming down to Ft. Collins this month for the Brian Conway workshops and concerts? I'm out of town for Oireachtas, but hopefully you can make it!
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What makes good music?
i don't usually drink alcohol (yes, i can hear the gasps of horror!), but i swear i manage to get 'drunk' on good music. i get a total feeling of elation from live performances in particular - the atmposphere adds an extra dimension to the music. good music can make you feel something you can't explain. you feel connected to it.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by flisstle
Re: What makes good music?
heya flisstle - I guess that means you'd best not operate any heavy machinery or drive after tomorrow's session?
I think that a large part of any music's appeal is linked to a fundamental human trait, namely pattern recognition, which is why music's appeal is particular and subjective. Anything more than the simplest pattern needs training to be perceived, and satisfaction and pleasure come from recognising patterns.
Therefore, because I have trained my ear to hear ornamentation, rhythms, styles and phrasing in trad music, I can delight in the playing of good players a great deal more than five years ago, say, when I just heard trad as a confusing jumble of sounds (it's true, I did).
btw, my understanding of 'pattern' is not just about things being the same over time and space, but how they can also be subtly or obviously *not* the same.
This is not to say that complex is better. Complex can be intense and sublime. But simple can be elegant, too.
# Posted on November 5th 2005 by Q
Re: What makes good music?
Nice, Q. My husband agrees with you totally. As little as two years ago he couldn't listen to Irish trad without tearing his hair out at the horribly busy jumble of notes. Now he asks me to play some of my trad cds, and is learning to play the music himself. He's learned to recognize the patterns.
# Posted on November 6th 2005 by sara g
Re: What makes good music?
He's come to his senses...
# Posted on November 6th 2005 by kjay_bc_box
Re: What makes good music?
There are patterns..............................?
# Posted on November 6th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: What makes good music?
Well, I could explain it to you, Ptarm, but you'd need a fair whack of music theory to understand.
he shoots, he scores!
just kidding, just kidding - it's actually more in the field of cognitive psychology and science, which I barely understand myself. here's a link
http://www.ee.columbia.edu/~dpwe/muscontent/JHU-2003-07.pdf
which should explain the "basic" approach, although the science of it all is beyond me. It doesn't cover musicial *preference* or qualitative attributions, but that's where the idea of 'training', by which I mean enculturation and focus (coached or self-motivated), kicks in.
You probably already "get" all of this and are just having me on, but here it is spelled out:
In short, music is perceived as 'good', according to how it relates to what you already consider 'good'. And that is built on complex patterns that your subconscious interprets and processes.
The most basic musical pattern is probably the perennial favourite: the four/four beat. Others include the four bar phrase, the eight bar segment, sixteen bar tune.
Particular short phrases or runs of notes that are repeated within the same tune. If there are variations of patterns, then comes into play another another subconscious, sometimes conscious awareness of what the pattern suddenly isn't.
Perhaps the variations allow one melodic pattern to link with another melodic pattern; this is registered - and, because of the brain's instinctive drive to *follow* patterns that it recognises, it is appreciated. Layers upon layers upon layers of patterns.
And that's what it's all about! Clear as a mudlark, innit?
# Posted on November 6th 2005 by Q
Re: What makes good music?
All I can say Q is - I'm glad I'm a simple Ptarmigan, rather than one of yer complicated Mudlarks!
It seems so simple, when we hear a simple jig in a session & we join in with it the 2nd, or least by the 3rd, time round.
In my case it's simply down to spending much of the past 30 odd years just listening very, very carefully & playing lots & lots, but mostly about my close attention to detail when listening & then reproducing what I hear.
# Posted on November 6th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: What makes good music?
I see the analogy of comparing what is good in music to what is good in wine, as it is rather hard to pin down the subtleties. Myself, however, I know nothing about wine, so I would have to say that ITM is good in more of a "nice cold pint with a good head on it, and a plate full of well cooked meat and potatoes alongside." Good stick to your ribs stuff!
# Posted on November 6th 2005 by AlBrown