The Session >> Discussions >> Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
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Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
I'm a new member. I've looked through a search of discussions on "rosin" but haven't quite found an answer to my question. If you have a link to a relevant discussion I missed, I'd appreciate it.
After 45 minutes of playing in a group, I feel like I'm not getting as much sound out of my fiddle as in the beginning of the session. I've tried cleaning the strings off. I've tried adding rosin, which sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't. I've considered the possibility that I'm actually over rosining (?). I read about not moving the bow over the rosin too quickly... perhaps I've been heating the rosin up, but wouldn't I notice this at the beginning of the session rather than just 45 minutes later? I've also considered that maybe the group is just getting louder as we warm up. I've been working out some neck pain problems, so I want to avoid working to be heard as much as I can.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Here's what I do; I use bass rosin on my violin bow, since I'm really a bass player and I love the stuff. Wipe the strings off at the end of the session; you don't want rosin to build up. Wipe the whole instrument, too, to keep it looking its best. If rosin builds up on the strings, I use a bit of rubbing alcohol on a cloth to clean the strings.
I find bass rosin to be stickier than violin rosin, so I use a small amount; maybe one or two swipes. (A bass bow needs many good swipes, especially if you are about to dive into a Mahler symphony!) I don't heat it.
You'll know you are over-rosining if you see a white film on the violin, and the sound is scratchy. Rosin is like Guiness-a little bit goes a long way.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
As you suggest, it's probably not a rosin problem, but nevertheless it's a good idea to avoid over-rosining the bow. It's surprising to the uninitiated how little rosin is fact needed.
Perhaps your bowing arm/hand is stiffening a little through tiredness as the session gets under way, and this will reduce the volume of tone. It's also quite probable that you are in fact still producing the same amount of tone as at the beginning, but because of the greater ambient sound later on in the session you don't hear yourself so clearly.
Just a few thoughts to get things going.
And welcome to The Session! BTW, would you like to give some indication in your member's bio of your playing experience, age-group, and approximate location? Those things are very useful in advisory situations like this!
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Could be any of the reasons you mention, or maybe you're just losing the sweet spot--the right amount of bow pressure, speed, and locaiton between the bridge and end of fingerboard--to get the fullest sound from your fiddle. Sessions can sometimes breed bad habits....
Or maybe it's your ears. The older I get, the worse my hearing grows, and I especially notice that it's harder to distinguish the "signal" from the "noise"--the fiddle from all the other noise in a typical session. So as more players join the circle, and more punters try to talk over the music, the less I hear my own fiddle.
I dunno. Do you have real horsehair on your bow or the fake stuff? How long's it been since you had the bow rehaired? Is there oil on the hair (from someone touching it, from contact with food, etc.)?
On the other hand, the general idea of playing at a session isn't to make yourself be heard, but to blend in. The rule of thumb that was passed on to me by old players is, 'if you can't hear the other players over yourself, you're playing too loud.' Aiming for a strong, full tone is better than just trying to play loudly--it's more about staying relaxed (shedding any tension, e.g. in your neck), finding that sweet spot, and letting the tone cut through. In other words, you don't have to be loud to be heard.
Hope this helps, and welcome to the online session.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Wow. Quick replies! Yes, I will put some info about myself in the bio. I mostly play in a band rather than a session where folks are joining, so I don't think its due to more people, although my bandmates could be getting louder as we all warm up. I did just get the bow rehaired-- it helped somewhat but I still run into this problem. I am careful to wipe the strings clean and will be better about wiping the fiddle clean under the strings (it's got only a slight build-up). The bowhair is real, and I am careful not to touch it. Hmmm.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
You might check the seams on your instrument; open seams can wreak havoc with tone and volume. An easy way to do this is with a business card--slide it carefully along the seams and watch if it slips in anywhere.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Oh a band! Well, this is easy then. Your bandmates have paid the sound guy to turn your mic off! Or maybe they're just toying with you, turning the volume down on your monitor! LOL.
Ahem. Sorry.
Is this a seasonal thing? I usually use one rosin for humid conditions and another for dry. What else? Ask your band mates if they notice the decrease in volume. Is there any accompanying change in tone--thinner? Yes, check for seam gaps, a split in the top under the tailpiece, etc. What strings are you using?
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
I use Helicore strings. My fiddle is in great shape-- except for benefitting from a new bridge and soundpost when I can afford it, several luthiers have looked it over and given it the okay. Also, we play around a cardiod mic, so there are no separate mics.
I've heard about using different rosin for different seasons but I'm not clear which is for which. Someone said to use dark rosin because I live in the humid northwest, but someone else said to use light rosin for the same reason. I had my bow hair cleaned and switched from Hill dark to Millant-Deroux dark. Can't really say I liked one over the other. I'm trying to stay with just one rosin, as I've heard that switching can be bad (not sure why). I'm also looking for a new bow so I've been trying out many bows, assumably with a variety of rosins already on them.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Where you play might also be a factor. If your fiddle goes from a humid environment to a dry hall (club, etc.), it might be reacting to the change. I have that problem where I live; after adjusting to the temperature and dryness of our symphony hall, sometimes my fiddle sounds dry and scritchy. Maybe a humidfier that slips into the F-hole would help. I would only use this while playing; I don't recommend leaving it in the instrument.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Hill and Millant Deroux are pretty similar in their grip. I use both, and relied on Hill when I lived in the Eugene area many years ago. Seemed to do fine in the wet winters, though I sometimes found myself wanting something tackier in the dry summers.
How about your bow hair tension? I sometimes tighten mine one turn or so after 30 minutes of playing so I can get more bite without bouncing the stick off the strings. Probably has less to do with the hairs going slack than it does with my own feel for how much I want to lean on the stick at certain times--my bowing gets more dynamic as I warm up.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
You might try Tartini, which we've had very good feedback about (and use ourselves, of course!). We import / stock it in the UK, but as you live in the US you can get it from http://www.incredibow.com, who do similar in the US. From the comments we've had, you won't be disappointed, and the mini size is a good one to start with as it will still last a long, long time.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
my guess would be that your bow hair is loosening up as you move from one environment to another...typically a violin will open up with a little playing...that doesn't necessarily mean louder, but you should notice a more rounded sound with more overtones...I would also suggest that your hearing is going a little "numb" from the fiddle being under your ear.
Do other mates comment on the lack of volume after 45 minutes?
I agree with Mark, it's a nice rosin and doesn't leave dust all over the fiddle like Hindersine etc. and doesn't use up so quickly. It's not the cheapest but the small block lasts for ever.
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Seriously, if your tone really is changing after 45 minutes, there's really only two likely possibilities:
1) It's a rosin problem. Too much or too little. Too much rosin will often sound good for a couple of minutes, then start sounding awfully similar to too little. If you're in doubt, look straight down your bow hair at a light source. If the bow hairs appear completely shiny, there's not enough rosin, if the hairs seem completely matt (as in "the opposite of shiny"), then there's too much rosin. The hairs should be somewhere in between (my own preference is around 20% shiny)...
2) There's something you do differently after 45 minutes than you do earlier. Perhaps you get lazy, tired, tense, shift your position...?
Interesting that you connect neck pain to "working to be heard"... Tone and volume on the fiddle should (ideally) come from the weight of your right arm and the feel in the fingers of your right hand, rather than anything involving your neck. It's a common, and normal, mistake to tighten everything when you try to play loudly. In reality, you should only need to use three or four more muscles in your arm to increase your volume. Seeing you mention tone and neck pain in the same paragraph suggests to me that the source of your problem lies in #2 above, rather than #1.
As much as it would be easier to blame it on your equipment (rosin, bow hair, etc), my guess is that the problem is probably #2 rather than #1. Of course this is having never met you, talked to you, or seen/heard you play. While getting new equipment, or changing your fiddle in some way is often an appealing alternative, and sometimes it really seems like it helps (*), I've found that it rarely ever *really* addresses the cause of the problems.
My recommendations are:
1) Get advice from a good fiddle teacher who can see you play, if you can. A good teacher should be able to notice anything you are doing obviously wrong far better than anyone will off the internet.
2) Practice playing loud without playing tense. Let the weight of your right arm, combined with the wrist and the index-finger and thumb of the right arm, provide all the pressure on the strings. Don't tense up anything else.
3) Video-record yourself playing with your band... Compare what you look like at the beginning to what you look like after 45 minutes. With any luck, the differences will be obvious to you when you look at yourself in the third person.
Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
I'm a new member. I've looked through a search of discussions on "rosin" but haven't quite found an answer to my question. If you have a link to a relevant discussion I missed, I'd appreciate it.
After 45 minutes of playing in a group, I feel like I'm not getting as much sound out of my fiddle as in the beginning of the session. I've tried cleaning the strings off. I've tried adding rosin, which sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't. I've considered the possibility that I'm actually over rosining (?). I read about not moving the bow over the rosin too quickly... perhaps I've been heating the rosin up, but wouldn't I notice this at the beginning of the session rather than just 45 minutes later? I've also considered that maybe the group is just getting louder as we warm up. I've been working out some neck pain problems, so I want to avoid working to be heard as much as I can.
Anyone had similar challenges?
Thanks
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by eugenefiddler
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Here's what I do; I use bass rosin on my violin bow, since I'm really a bass player and I love the stuff. Wipe the strings off at the end of the session; you don't want rosin to build up. Wipe the whole instrument, too, to keep it looking its best. If rosin builds up on the strings, I use a bit of rubbing alcohol on a cloth to clean the strings.
I find bass rosin to be stickier than violin rosin, so I use a small amount; maybe one or two swipes. (A bass bow needs many good swipes, especially if you are about to dive into a Mahler symphony!) I don't heat it.
You'll know you are over-rosining if you see a white film on the violin, and the sound is scratchy. Rosin is like Guiness-a little bit goes a long way.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
As you suggest, it's probably not a rosin problem, but nevertheless it's a good idea to avoid over-rosining the bow. It's surprising to the uninitiated how little rosin is fact needed.
Perhaps your bowing arm/hand is stiffening a little through tiredness as the session gets under way, and this will reduce the volume of tone. It's also quite probable that you are in fact still producing the same amount of tone as at the beginning, but because of the greater ambient sound later on in the session you don't hear yourself so clearly.
Just a few thoughts to get things going.
And welcome to The Session! BTW, would you like to give some indication in your member's bio of your playing experience, age-group, and approximate location? Those things are very useful in advisory situations like this!
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Could be any of the reasons you mention, or maybe you're just losing the sweet spot--the right amount of bow pressure, speed, and locaiton between the bridge and end of fingerboard--to get the fullest sound from your fiddle. Sessions can sometimes breed bad habits....
Or maybe it's your ears. The older I get, the worse my hearing grows, and I especially notice that it's harder to distinguish the "signal" from the "noise"--the fiddle from all the other noise in a typical session. So as more players join the circle, and more punters try to talk over the music, the less I hear my own fiddle.
I dunno. Do you have real horsehair on your bow or the fake stuff? How long's it been since you had the bow rehaired? Is there oil on the hair (from someone touching it, from contact with food, etc.)?
On the other hand, the general idea of playing at a session isn't to make yourself be heard, but to blend in. The rule of thumb that was passed on to me by old players is, 'if you can't hear the other players over yourself, you're playing too loud.' Aiming for a strong, full tone is better than just trying to play loudly--it's more about staying relaxed (shedding any tension, e.g. in your neck), finding that sweet spot, and letting the tone cut through. In other words, you don't have to be loud to be heard.
Hope this helps, and welcome to the online session.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Wow. Quick replies! Yes, I will put some info about myself in the bio. I mostly play in a band rather than a session where folks are joining, so I don't think its due to more people, although my bandmates could be getting louder as we all warm up. I did just get the bow rehaired-- it helped somewhat but I still run into this problem. I am careful to wipe the strings clean and will be better about wiping the fiddle clean under the strings (it's got only a slight build-up). The bowhair is real, and I am careful not to touch it. Hmmm.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by eugenefiddler
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
You might check the seams on your instrument; open seams can wreak havoc with tone and volume. An easy way to do this is with a business card--slide it carefully along the seams and watch if it slips in anywhere.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by dmarie
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Oh a band! Well, this is easy then. Your bandmates have paid the sound guy to turn your mic off!
Or maybe they're just toying with you, turning the volume down on your monitor! LOL.
Ahem. Sorry.
Is this a seasonal thing? I usually use one rosin for humid conditions and another for dry. What else? Ask your band mates if they notice the decrease in volume. Is there any accompanying change in tone--thinner? Yes, check for seam gaps, a split in the top under the tailpiece, etc. What strings are you using?
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
I use Helicore strings. My fiddle is in great shape-- except for benefitting from a new bridge and soundpost when I can afford it, several luthiers have looked it over and given it the okay. Also, we play around a cardiod mic, so there are no separate mics.
I've heard about using different rosin for different seasons but I'm not clear which is for which. Someone said to use dark rosin because I live in the humid northwest, but someone else said to use light rosin for the same reason. I had my bow hair cleaned and switched from Hill dark to Millant-Deroux dark. Can't really say I liked one over the other. I'm trying to stay with just one rosin, as I've heard that switching can be bad (not sure why). I'm also looking for a new bow so I've been trying out many bows, assumably with a variety of rosins already on them.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by eugenefiddler
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Where you play might also be a factor. If your fiddle goes from a humid environment to a dry hall (club, etc.), it might be reacting to the change. I have that problem where I live; after adjusting to the temperature and dryness of our symphony hall, sometimes my fiddle sounds dry and scritchy. Maybe a humidfier that slips into the F-hole would help. I would only use this while playing; I don't recommend leaving it in the instrument.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by dmarie
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Hill and Millant Deroux are pretty similar in their grip. I use both, and relied on Hill when I lived in the Eugene area many years ago. Seemed to do fine in the wet winters, though I sometimes found myself wanting something tackier in the dry summers.
How about your bow hair tension? I sometimes tighten mine one turn or so after 30 minutes of playing so I can get more bite without bouncing the stick off the strings. Probably has less to do with the hairs going slack than it does with my own feel for how much I want to lean on the stick at certain times--my bowing gets more dynamic as I warm up.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
You might try Tartini, which we've had very good feedback about (and use ourselves, of course!). We import / stock it in the UK, but as you live in the US you can get it from http://www.incredibow.com, who do similar in the US. From the comments we've had, you won't be disappointed, and the mini size is a good one to start with as it will still last a long, long time.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
my guess would be that your bow hair is loosening up as you move from one environment to another...typically a violin will open up with a little playing...that doesn't necessarily mean louder, but you should notice a more rounded sound with more overtones...I would also suggest that your hearing is going a little "numb" from the fiddle being under your ear.
Do other mates comment on the lack of volume after 45 minutes?
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Sunnybear
Tartini rosin
I agree with Mark, it's a nice rosin and doesn't leave dust all over the fiddle like Hindersine etc. and doesn't use up so quickly. It's not the cheapest but the small block lasts for ever.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by SteveW
Re: Fiddle Question: Lose sound after 45 minutes of playing...
Seriously, if your tone really is changing after 45 minutes, there's really only two likely possibilities:
1) It's a rosin problem. Too much or too little. Too much rosin will often sound good for a couple of minutes, then start sounding awfully similar to too little. If you're in doubt, look straight down your bow hair at a light source. If the bow hairs appear completely shiny, there's not enough rosin, if the hairs seem completely matt (as in "the opposite of shiny"), then there's too much rosin. The hairs should be somewhere in between (my own preference is around 20% shiny)...
2) There's something you do differently after 45 minutes than you do earlier. Perhaps you get lazy, tired, tense, shift your position...?
Interesting that you connect neck pain to "working to be heard"... Tone and volume on the fiddle should (ideally) come from the weight of your right arm and the feel in the fingers of your right hand, rather than anything involving your neck. It's a common, and normal, mistake to tighten everything when you try to play loudly. In reality, you should only need to use three or four more muscles in your arm to increase your volume. Seeing you mention tone and neck pain in the same paragraph suggests to me that the source of your problem lies in #2 above, rather than #1.
As much as it would be easier to blame it on your equipment (rosin, bow hair, etc), my guess is that the problem is probably #2 rather than #1. Of course this is having never met you, talked to you, or seen/heard you play. While getting new equipment, or changing your fiddle in some way is often an appealing alternative, and sometimes it really seems like it helps (*), I've found that it rarely ever *really* addresses the cause of the problems.
My recommendations are:
1) Get advice from a good fiddle teacher who can see you play, if you can. A good teacher should be able to notice anything you are doing obviously wrong far better than anyone will off the internet.
2) Practice playing loud without playing tense. Let the weight of your right arm, combined with the wrist and the index-finger and thumb of the right arm, provide all the pressure on the strings. Don't tense up anything else.
3) Video-record yourself playing with your band... Compare what you look like at the beginning to what you look like after 45 minutes. With any luck, the differences will be obvious to you when you look at yourself in the third person.
Good Luck!!
--Georgi
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by Georgi