I was just having a conversation with a fairly well known singer the other day & we touched on the differences between the "tune" & "song" traditions. In the 60's & 70's most people couldn't sit through a night of jigs & reels & now the tables are reversed. We agreed that Sweeney's Men & Planxty were great bands doing a bit of both. But the singing has gone to the wayside. It's hard for a singer/guitarist who can't back up tunes to sit in on a tune session whereas some backers are reluctant to sing a song for fear of being session hogs - however there are many session hogs on fiddles, flutes & the like. I enjoy a song, but I know that many are afraid that if you allow people to sing, every punter will get up to sing the Wild Rover. I think this fear is a little silly, after all, water seeks it's own level. If there is a certain standard to a session, the person will know that a certain level of musicianship should be brought to the table. Nonetheless if someone wants to get up & try their shot at a song I think they should be given a chance. If they are really bad than let them know politely or have the piss out them.
On the whole, I find the sessions where a few musicians put their heads down & hammer through tunes may be good musicwise, but miss the point of a session as it should be. Anyone in the place should be welcome to strut their stuff, if they take it over then plough on without them - but the whole session thing seems to have become to stuffy & elite. I just think everyone should be able to have their fun.
Songs are an important factor in irish music as it breaks the ice of tune after tune or in some sessions reel after reel the odd song is not hogging 25 mins of songs over a 3 hr sesh is fine
No useful thoughts to add to your comments. I love a good song – even the Wild Rover, I’m afraid, if it’s only once in a while. I’d love it to be 35% reels, 30% jigs, 10% hornpipes, 7.5% other (polkas, strathspeys, mazurkas etc), 5% songs and 2.5% airs. In an ideal world that catered solely to my needs.
Just want to say it’s great having you back under your old handle, Mr. Maloney.
Hey, I said I had nothing useful to add. Didn’t stop me from posting, tho.
Sessions by there very nature are group activities, and songs in ITM are mainly solo. If a fiddle player insisted in giving a 5 minute solo performance of his/her variations of an obscure tune, then we would think they were up themselves, session hogs, because no-one else could join in, which is the whole point. Yet some singers seem to think that they should be able to "strut their stuff" and give a mini concert.
The odd song in a session is fine, however, it should always be preceeded by the words "How about giving us a song Paddy/Mary/ whoever". One song every 40 minutes or so is okay because it gives those people who don't want to listen to a mini concert, a chance to go to the bar or the toilet without missing out on any tunes.
Someone said in an earlier thread that the words are important in songs. You can't disagree with this, however, when I play music, I'm not interested in words. I don't care for words. I don't want words to interfere with my enjoyment of the abstraction which is diddley tunes. I'm sorry but, I spend all day with words in my head, so when I play music, I like it to be a word free zone.
Interesting percentages Fidkid - mine were close to yours, though I had 33.2% for the reels, and 8.5% on others, with airs up to 3.2% and songs at 5.1%.
I like fidkid's balance. Hey, as a singer, I love when a session includes the odd song, but no, definitely wouldn't offer to sing. Only if asked. And yes, the words are the important thing, so yes, you need to actually focus for a few minutes if there's singing, so no, I'm not a big fan of pure singing for two hours. You need drinking time and chatting time, which can easily fit around tunes, but not songs and slow airs. Doesn't mean you have to leave them out!.
If a musician came into a tune-session with high standards and made a hash of Harvest Home or whatever, you would be told in no uncertain terms by the session-hogs.
If the singer is very good and commands the rooms attention immediately, I don't see why session-hogs should complain, but you need to be a very confident and brave singer.
If a very good session-hog tried to get a tune going in a singers-session, we all know what the reaction would be.
In sessions where I am well known I won't necessarily wait to be asked but sing when there is a suitable gap which may happen twice, three time or not at all depending on the flow of the music - if its really hanging together well - I'm not going to interupt I want to listen.
In sessions where I'm not known I will introduce myself as a singer and wait to be asked - by which time I should have judged the style of the session and if they want the dead sheep song or something much more cheerful. After I've sung once its up to them (and what else is going on) if they want me to sing again.
I do quite a few singers session and the odd folk club but I do prefer mixed tunes/song provided the balance is right, probably five /six tune sets to a song.
I like the idea of balance, and have no problem pausing from the collective playing from time to time to let someone play solo, or someone sing, etc. At the very least, it gives folks a chance to refill glasses, have a smoke, visit the restroom, etc. And it often shifts the groupings of instruments, as people return from the break in random patterns.
And don't fall into the "singing is solo, playing is collective" mindset. I also enjoy singing where everyone joins in on the choruses, instruments play along, etc. And singing often brings the drinking crowd into the fun, breaks down the "fourth wall" that separates players from the "audience," and increases the participation of all, which can improve the fun.
Unfortunately, there are some sessions that act like 9 year old boys who think that all girls have "cooties"---"Eeeeewwwww, a singer, how gross."
It is better if they don't all treat your song as a break - There's nothing worse than opening your eyes after a particularly heart felt and may I say beautifully executed song to find they've all gone to the bar and the only person's attention I've got is the drunk in the corner. I have an arrangement with my musicians - they listen to me ( most of the time), join in ( occasionally) then give me money and I'ld go to the bar for them.
Oh, dear--I wouldn't admit to closing your eyes while singing or playing around here! Those who know how to search for and provide links to old threads could dredge up some interesting conversations.
You are right about treating a song entirely as a break--it is not like everyone noisily gets up en mass and leaves--that would be rude. But certainly, those with urgent business have a chance to conduct it. And we try, at least among the musicians, to maintain a respectful silence during songs--don't try to enforce that among the eating and drinking crowd, but it gives the singer at least a small island of quiet in which to work.
The bottom line is that every player does not have to be involved with every note of every tune (or song). If the guitar drops out for a few tunes, or one of the fiddles, or a song breaks out, or someone plays a slow air, it gives the evening a bit of variety, and a chance to breath.
Its a concentration thing - haven't quite managed the look into the distance slightly unfocused and more likely to be done when I'm taking out new songs or in new situations besides you are supposed to be listening to me not looking at this point ( unless of course you have other reasons in which case I'm looking for intensity, intelligence,humour, compassion and not too many personal problems in a man)
Seriously, I know the debate and I'm better than I have been - especially doing more of a performance.
Essentially its about having your contribution valued by those around you and appreciating other people and the flow of the session.
I’d love it to be 30% reels, 25% jigs, 10% hornpipes, 25% other (polkas, slides, flings, mazurkas, barndances, waltzes etc), 5% songs and 5% airs. In an ideal world that catered solely to 'MY' needs.
As a (trained) singer first and an instrumentalist second, I must admit that I'm a bit biased towards letting singers in. But then, I agree with others who say that it all depends on the mood of the session you're in. I have sung in sessions where the instrumentalists were silent and respectful while I sang (or accompanied me) and I've been in sessions where the singers went off to another room to get their fix. Any way you turn it, it comes down to being respectful of the group.
Song vs Tune Traditions
Song vs Tune Traditions
I was just having a conversation with a fairly well known singer the other day & we touched on the differences between the "tune" & "song" traditions. In the 60's & 70's most people couldn't sit through a night of jigs & reels & now the tables are reversed. We agreed that Sweeney's Men & Planxty were great bands doing a bit of both. But the singing has gone to the wayside. It's hard for a singer/guitarist who can't back up tunes to sit in on a tune session whereas some backers are reluctant to sing a song for fear of being session hogs - however there are many session hogs on fiddles, flutes & the like. I enjoy a song, but I know that many are afraid that if you allow people to sing, every punter will get up to sing the Wild Rover. I think this fear is a little silly, after all, water seeks it's own level. If there is a certain standard to a session, the person will know that a certain level of musicianship should be brought to the table. Nonetheless if someone wants to get up & try their shot at a song I think they should be given a chance. If they are really bad than let them know politely or have the piss out them.
On the whole, I find the sessions where a few musicians put their heads down & hammer through tunes may be good musicwise, but miss the point of a session as it should be. Anyone in the place should be welcome to strut their stuff, if they take it over then plough on without them - but the whole session thing seems to have become to stuffy & elite. I just think everyone should be able to have their fun.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Mad Baloney
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
Songs are an important factor in irish music as it breaks the ice of tune after tune or in some sessions reel after reel the odd song is not hogging 25 mins of songs over a 3 hr sesh is fine
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
No useful thoughts to add to your comments. I love a good song – even the Wild Rover, I’m afraid, if it’s only once in a while. I’d love it to be 35% reels, 30% jigs, 10% hornpipes, 7.5% other (polkas, strathspeys, mazurkas etc), 5% songs and 2.5% airs. In an ideal world that catered solely to my needs.
Just want to say it’s great having you back under your old handle, Mr. Maloney.
Hey, I said I had nothing useful to add. Didn’t stop me from posting, tho.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by fidkid
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
Sessions by there very nature are group activities, and songs in ITM are mainly solo. If a fiddle player insisted in giving a 5 minute solo performance of his/her variations of an obscure tune, then we would think they were up themselves, session hogs, because no-one else could join in, which is the whole point. Yet some singers seem to think that they should be able to "strut their stuff" and give a mini concert.
The odd song in a session is fine, however, it should always be preceeded by the words "How about giving us a song Paddy/Mary/ whoever". One song every 40 minutes or so is okay because it gives those people who don't want to listen to a mini concert, a chance to go to the bar or the toilet without missing out on any tunes.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by woops
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
Someone said in an earlier thread that the words are important in songs. You can't disagree with this, however, when I play music, I'm not interested in words. I don't care for words. I don't want words to interfere with my enjoyment of the abstraction which is diddley tunes. I'm sorry but, I spend all day with words in my head, so when I play music, I like it to be a word free zone.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
Interesting percentages Fidkid - mine were close to yours, though I had 33.2% for the reels, and 8.5% on others, with airs up to 3.2% and songs at 5.1%.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
stocks and shares now
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
I like fidkid's balance. Hey, as a singer, I love when a session includes the odd song, but no, definitely wouldn't offer to sing. Only if asked. And yes, the words are the important thing, so yes, you need to actually focus for a few minutes if there's singing, so no, I'm not a big fan of pure singing for two hours. You need drinking time and chatting time, which can easily fit around tunes, but not songs and slow airs. Doesn't mean you have to leave them out!.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by tumeltyni
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
If a musician came into a tune-session with high standards and made a hash of Harvest Home or whatever, you would be told in no uncertain terms by the session-hogs.
If the singer is very good and commands the rooms attention immediately, I don't see why session-hogs should complain, but you need to be a very confident and brave singer.
If a very good session-hog tried to get a tune going in a singers-session, we all know what the reaction would be.
Are singers or session-hogs the problem?
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
Session-hogs, be they singers or instrumentalists....
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by tumeltyni
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
We are back at knowing the session you're in.
In sessions where I am well known I won't necessarily wait to be asked but sing when there is a suitable gap which may happen twice, three time or not at all depending on the flow of the music - if its really hanging together well - I'm not going to interupt I want to listen.
In sessions where I'm not known I will introduce myself as a singer and wait to be asked - by which time I should have judged the style of the session and if they want the dead sheep song or something much more cheerful. After I've sung once its up to them (and what else is going on) if they want me to sing again.
I do quite a few singers session and the odd folk club but I do prefer mixed tunes/song provided the balance is right, probably five /six tune sets to a song.
J
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by jfother
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
I like the idea of balance, and have no problem pausing from the collective playing from time to time to let someone play solo, or someone sing, etc. At the very least, it gives folks a chance to refill glasses, have a smoke, visit the restroom, etc. And it often shifts the groupings of instruments, as people return from the break in random patterns.
And don't fall into the "singing is solo, playing is collective" mindset. I also enjoy singing where everyone joins in on the choruses, instruments play along, etc. And singing often brings the drinking crowd into the fun, breaks down the "fourth wall" that separates players from the "audience," and increases the participation of all, which can improve the fun.
Unfortunately, there are some sessions that act like 9 year old boys who think that all girls have "cooties"---"Eeeeewwwww, a singer, how gross."
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
It is better if they don't all treat your song as a break - There's nothing worse than opening your eyes after a particularly heart felt and may I say beautifully executed song to find they've all gone to the bar and the only person's attention I've got is the drunk in the corner. I have an arrangement with my musicians - they listen to me ( most of the time), join in ( occasionally) then give me money and I'ld go to the bar for them.
J
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by jfother
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
Oh, dear--I wouldn't admit to closing your eyes while singing or playing around here! Those who know how to search for and provide links to old threads could dredge up some interesting conversations.
You are right about treating a song entirely as a break--it is not like everyone noisily gets up en mass and leaves--that would be rude. But certainly, those with urgent business have a chance to conduct it. And we try, at least among the musicians, to maintain a respectful silence during songs--don't try to enforce that among the eating and drinking crowd, but it gives the singer at least a small island of quiet in which to work.
The bottom line is that every player does not have to be involved with every note of every tune (or song). If the guitar drops out for a few tunes, or one of the fiddles, or a song breaks out, or someone plays a slow air, it gives the evening a bit of variety, and a chance to breath.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
Its a concentration thing - haven't quite managed the look into the distance slightly unfocused and more likely to be done when I'm taking out new songs or in new situations besides you are supposed to be listening to me not looking at this point ( unless of course you have other reasons in which case I'm looking for intensity, intelligence,humour, compassion and not too many personal problems in a man)
Seriously, I know the debate and I'm better than I have been - especially doing more of a performance.
Essentially its about having your contribution valued by those around you and appreciating other people and the flow of the session.
J
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by jfother
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
I like it when the singer shuts their eyes. They don't notice us slipping outside for a smoke
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
Ah you're just jealous...
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by tumeltyni
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
OK fidkid, you asked for it:
I’d love it to be 30% reels, 25% jigs, 10% hornpipes, 25% other (polkas, slides, flings, mazurkas, barndances, waltzes etc), 5% songs and 5% airs. In an ideal world that catered solely to 'MY' needs.
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Song vs Tune Traditions
As a (trained) singer first and an instrumentalist second, I must admit that I'm a bit biased towards letting singers in. But then, I agree with others who say that it all depends on the mood of the session you're in. I have sung in sessions where the instrumentalists were silent and respectful while I sang (or accompanied me) and I've been in sessions where the singers went off to another room to get their fix. Any way you turn it, it comes down to being respectful of the group.
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by josingsinthehall