I was at a tune workshop this morning (back in the U.K.) and the tutor remarked that he probably practiced a tune 200 times before it was really in his head and fit to be taught to a class. Later on a member of his band came into the room, as a visitor, and Phil asked him how many times they worked on a tune before they performed it. His colleague said "two or three hundred times", whereupon Phil told us not to worry if we didn't get the tune right during just one lesson.
What is the members' experiences of tune learning and how much work needs to put into a tune before it is good enough to be taught or performed (leading off in a session, or in a gig)?
Well, it depends on whether we're talking about something fairly simple in structure, like a two part Donegal Fling or about one of those 'contangufibrulatigoramalised' new four part reels from Liz Carroll!
For the former, I guess I'd let it wash over me for a week, listening to it in the car, before trying it out.
As for a big Liz Carroll tune - I'm still working on tunes of hers I first heard about ten years ago!
I suppose it depends on what instrument you play. If its a Bodhran for instance you only need to hear it once. If it's the pipes you play you might need a lifetime.
Depends on the length of the tune, for one thing. Is it two bars, or eight? That makes a difference.
Also, I'm actually most comfortable if I have learned a tune relatively well, set it aside for awhile, (say, a couple weeks,) then pick it back up again.
For me to really know a tune - ie be able to start it cold - I need a at least a week of dedicated practice. Most tunes that I play I just listen to and then play. My fingers know them even if my mind doesn't. I have never really 'learned' half of the tunes I play. Mostly because people are always introducing things that I haven't heard. I'll listen to it once or twice through and by then I can typically play it unless it's a really convuluted tune. But then, the jam sessions that I attend encourage people picking the tunes up by ear during the jam. Most of the workshop teachers tell people to learn in the chord and attack method. Which is the playing of chords and neutral notes until you hit a spot in the melody that you can play and then jump in. I don't typically do that, I just finger it until I know that I have it and then I jump in. I've spent many a jam not knowing ninety percent of the tunes played all night, having a blast, and making great music with my friends.
There is a great difference for me learning a tune if I learn it by ear or learn it by reading the music.
It seems to stay with me learning by ear, but it takes forever to pick it out and be able to get it up to speed.
If I learn by the sheetmusic, I can master it much quicker, but seem to forget it easier then as well.
Another problem I seem to have is remembering what key a particular tune is in. I've started out many a tune in one key, only to find out that my fingering is messed up because of a sharp that isn't supposed to be there.
For me, I can learn a tune relativley well in a hour or two, just as long as I know how the tune goes, back to front.
Example: Yesterday I bothered my backside to finally jot down the notes to "Over the Moor to Maggie". I knew how the tune goes because I absolutley love it and then I got the hang of it within an hour.
But I once tried to play "Anderson's Reel" (a tune I don't know so well) and although its quite easy, I couldn't play it because I didn't know which way I was supposed to be playing the notes, despite the score being right in front of me :p
I'm ok with my ear. Nothing great but good enough to sit in a session and toddle along with the tunes, probably because I'm also a chord player.
I've been thinking about this lately, especially after being part of entirely different approaches at two workshops I've recently been to. At the first workshop, the tutor would play the tune through once or twice, and then have us work on it, but phrase by phrase - not moving on until each and every one of us could play that phrase back - this was without any visual aids, I should add. We got through a number of tunes pretty damn quickly, actually, and by the end of the workshop I could definitely play all of the tunes, no problem.
Trouble is, I can't quite remember how they go.
Does this sound weird? What I mean to say is that when we were playing all together at the end of the workshop, my fingers knew exactly where to go, but I couldn't 'see' the tune in front of me. In the time since, I've listened to the recordings I'd made a fair few times, and played them through on my own and I'm quite comfortable with them now, but if I hadn't done this post-workshop homework, I'm not sure if they would have stayed in my fingers.
The other approach, which I gather is not uncommon, was by a tutor who wrote the tunes out in an ABC-lite format on a blackboard, and everyone had to copy them down.
This took a while. Then she played through a tune about 10 times - the first few times just the bare bones, slowly, then gradually picking up speed and adding in ornaments until she was racing away with it. A quick chat about ornaments followed, and then everybody played it through - 'sightreading' from the blackboard.
The second approach really bothered me. I'm a good sightreader, a result of my classical music training when I was young. But playing from dots - or ABC (not very good at the latter, actually) doesn't leave the tune imprinted in my memory at aoll. Learning to learn by ear was a long and painful - and recent - process for me, and I was a little dismayed to find myself in a workshop that didn't actively use ear-learning methods. I still can't play the tunes we did at that workshop, as I haven't worked on them on my own yet. One of them was Anderson's, funnily enough.
For myself, I've found the best way to learn a tune is to find as many instances of it in my CD collection as I can, put them all on my iRiver together with someone playing the tune through on a solo instrument - either recording a friend or myself playing from sheet music. Do that for a day or two until I can find myself whistling it all the way through, and then start the phrase-by-phrase work, getting it into my fingers. Practice each day for an hour or so - usually until the tune gets muddled up in my head from over-concentration and I start to get frustrated. The next day my subconcious has neatly sorted and filed the finger movements, and the playing is much better. After a week of this, it's in. A few weeks later I can start picking it a part, playing with variations and ornaments, octaving, arpeggios etc.
I should add that while this may be the best way for me to learn tunes, I don't do it very often. Who has the time? But in an ideal world, that's how I'd do it.
For me, it entirely depends on how well the melody sticks in my head. Tunes that just click require very little practice. Other tunes, even ones I love slip away with ease. If I know a tune on the mandolin, I can transfer it pretty effortlessly to the harmonica, and vise-versa.
I use the ear worm method. I put on one of the J.C abc midi files on constant repeat and have it as background as I do other things. I don't consciously listen but it seeps in anyhow. When the tune starts getting stuck in my head without the midi file playing then I start to work on it with or without the dots.
Having been "paper-trained" all my life, when I first got into traditional music, learning by ear was not a strong skill.
Finally what I did to address the problem was to stay away from the dots entirely for one year. From August 1 to August 1, I looked at dots maybe a dozen times, only to play a tune I didn't have a recording of into my tape recorder. I found this very effective; learning by ear is much easier now.
Every couple of months, I make a tape of 1-2 dozen tunes I'd like to learn. I keep it in the car and play it at least once every day that I'm working outside my home office. Again and again, I'm able to play the tune at a session long before I would have expected to be able to do so. The subconscious is quite the sponge.
Also, I seem to learn best when it's a recording of myself playing. And I find that once I actually learn the tune, that's when I get the most out of listening to CDs of it.
Some folks say your tune is not ready for performance until you can play it as soon as you get out of bed in the morning. By that standard, I should never play another gig. Or speak to anyone.
For me, there's still a difference between "knowing a tune" and "learning to play a tune". That line is blurring a bit (yay!)
If I have heard a tune repeatedly (sessions, mp3 player in my car, whatever), then I can learn that tune in a tune learning session, and play it in a full speed session that very same night (although, it never feels particularly comfortable to do that...)
So that may constitute "working it" maybe only 10-15 times before playing it full speed, but I never feel like it is actually in my repertoire until I have played it in a session a couple of times.
I copy out the notes on staff paper and try it out. Then, I put it on the dashboard of my car. I sing through it while the car is warming up. Then, whenever I'm in traffic, I have a quick peek, then I sing it to myself, over and over, one part at a time.
When I get to where I'm going and am safely parked, I haul out the flute and give it a go. I like the "first thing in the morning" standard given by Bob himself.
Coming form the classical world, I am completely dot-oriented.
It takes me at least 100 hearings of a tune to be able to memorize it in the first place. Doesn't seem to matter much whether those 100 hearings are from my own playing or somebody else's.
Then it takes me about another 100 playings to really get the tune down, and get the feel of it.
Then from there it takes anywhere from maybe another 15 to 20 playings up to another 100 playings, depending on how challenging a tune it is for me, to get it to where it flows properly and the difficult bits fly without hesitation.
So yeah, 200 to 300 before it's ready to play in front of anyone else is about right for me.
Sometimes I can get the tune first time through, not always though.
Learning from dots or by ear, I'd say the answer as I've mentioned before, is
i) knowing your instrument
ii) knowing HOW to LISTEN
Knowing your instrument means that you command any sound, tone by thinking it - if you go to play a piece you can't start by thinking "What note does it start on?" Just like Carl Lewis or Cathy Freeman didn't think shall I start with my left or right foot. It's got to be an automatic process.
Knowing how to listen...a lot of modern technology has removed this art and peole have the fall back of recordings, instant playback etc. As with speech, when a tune is played is only like listening to a sentence. Sometimes some accents are harder to understand than others, but if it's in the same language, then the message gets through.
While I think of it Trevor, is this Phil the fiddle/banjo in Bristol?
Also, maybe ask Wurzel about the Knotted Cord. As a beginner when I did a one to one class with him, on Lundy, I started by explaining exactly that, about listening, before going into tunes.
He had it completely in a few takes! And whenever we met up he always had it. Very nicely too, might I add.
I don't know guys, but if the normal thing is to practice a tune 200 times before you get it right then I must be a bloody genius!
I remember in the beginning it used to take me longer to learn them (always by ear), but even then it was never more than some 15 times.
You can actually learn some tunes by playing them as little as two or three times. Others take much longer.
However, before a tune becomes "part of you" and you can play it perfectly without thinking about it, this takes far longer in both cases. Many would argue that you never really get to know a tune and it can continue to surprise or delight you in some way or other.
It's funny you mentioned that lesson, Brian - I was listening to the recordings I made of it, and the session we had the night before, this morning!
I always thought of that lesson as the most important 25 minutes of time spent in my musical learning, and use it as the basis of my teaching at the Hibernia centre to this day.
In fact, if you give my your permission, I'll put a copy on the internet and link to it from this site as others could benefit the way I did.
And one day we'll meet up again for a few more tunes!
I find it depends a lot on the tune itself. I tend to learn tunes that have something that stick in my memory on first hearing. Often then I can pick up the basic notes from listening to it three or four times and checking back to a recording. I tend to learn by ear these days, but without the luxury of being actually 'taught' it in a session environment. I read dots too, and like to have them around to refer to if any part of the tune is proving difficult. I keep a CD in the car of 'tunes to learn' and put them on whenever I'm driving. I also hum the tune constantly-must drive people mad! They've got used to me at work now! But then, as a nurse, most of the people I look after are mad too!
I fool around with ABC software. I will listen to tune after tune until I find one I would like to learn. I print it out and I play it until I can get thru it without looking (15-20 times). If I still like it, I write it in my book (http://feardearg.com/book.jpg) that contains all the titles of the tunes I know (not a lot, about 250, but I know them very well). I will then have *marathons* where I will go thru as many as I have time for. I generally play every tune I know several times a week. This is how I learn tunes and keep them in my head.
Well, you've got a fantastic teacher in Phil, Trevor...and Gavin! That's great, and nice to know Hibernia's still doing well. Give both my best please.
Chris, I'm honoured and deeply humbled by your comments! Take this as permission to go ahead! I think the idea of passing on the heritage is one of my aims, not just to play
I just wish I had and knew the technology to do these link things, there's lots I'd love to share.
My programme will be going out 11pm your local time now that the clocks have gone back!
I listen, listen and listen to the tunes and then practice, practice practice! I learned classical first and I'm now learning to fiddle! All I know is dots!
My fiddle teacher is teaching me to play ABC method and then she takes my music away and says play.
200 timesbefore you play the tune in public? Sounds highly impractical to me. If everybody did this we could forget about sessions because we'd all know only 20 tunes
If you learn a tune from another player and not a recording surely you would have to be somewhat quicker. I think firstly you have to be fluent with your instrument i.e. know instantly where to put your fingers for the next tone (no visual aids).
Then when you are able to sing the tune you can play a basic version of it instantly.
"200 timesbefore you play the tune in public?" The point Phil Dawson was making as a teacher and band leader was that you need that amount of practice in order to play the tune at a standard fit for teaching to a class, or in a ceili, or making a CD. In other words, a high standard where complete fluency is expected.
However, if you all you want to do is to know a tune well enough to take it along to the next session and play along with everyone else then you'll be able to get by with somewhat fewer than 200 times through the tune in your woodshed - which is what most of us do, I expect
Another very important piece of advice Phil gave us was "Practice Makes Permanent". In other words, practice won't make perfect if you don't practice correctly right from the start. If you're not listening to what you're doing and thinking about it then you're just as likely to finish up practicing mistakes and embedding them for ever in your technique.
It is a week since I went to Folkworks at Hexham, UK. Of the half dozen tunes I didn't know that were taught to us aurally, at least half of them are in my head now. Of the ones I heard, found the name, then found the dots online, I still need the dots, but I am committing them to memory.
It is sometimes "how" you learn them.
Everyone has different sorts of "Favorite" tunes. If you find out your "favorite" style and learn tunes of that ilk, aren't they easier to memorise?
200 times isn't really an awful lot, you know, when you consider that most tunes last less than a minute. We play them two or three times in a row, in any case.
Of course, you can play them in sessions before that but those tunes which are really "ingrained" we must have played a damn sight more than 200 times over the years.
Sometimes, The Kesh jig gets played nearly 200 times in one night.
I am slow, so 200 times in practice sounds about right for a tricky tune before I would try to lead it off in a session--somewhat less if I am playing along. I usually use sheet music as part of the process, especially since I started noticing that when I learn a tune in session, and then see the sheet music, I find there are often less notes in the version I learned in the session (I guess we tend to be a bit sloppy in how we play things). I would rather be exposed to different settings of the tune than just get it from one source--the process helps make sure I really "own" the tune. Kind of like the way I look at different translations, different sources and different interpretations when I study the Bible--I am not one of those that thinks that the true meaning of the text is right there, on the surface, easily understood by someone steeped in 21st century US culture! I like to open the hood and poke around in the engine, if you will.
John J, I have a feeling you might be exagerating about the Kesh, since one time through a tune takes about 30 seconds, which means that, at your session, the Kesh would be played for approximately an hour and fourty minutes. I suspect that it just FEELS like you play it 200 times.
Go raibh maith agat! Thanks a million! And thank you for the way you've put it on the web. This is where I'm so limited, there's lots more I'd like to share this way.
A while back when there was a thread on the virtual session/ concert, I would have loved to have contributed by submitting some of the few recordings available, but I just don't have the wherewithal.
Thank you Will for your comments too...that's the basic approach I have to teaching and hopefully, if anything, I've always given a person a bagful of confidence too.
Learning a tune
Learning a tune
I was at a tune workshop this morning (back in the U.K.) and the tutor remarked that he probably practiced a tune 200 times before it was really in his head and fit to be taught to a class. Later on a member of his band came into the room, as a visitor, and Phil asked him how many times they worked on a tune before they performed it. His colleague said "two or three hundred times", whereupon Phil told us not to worry if we didn't get the tune right during just one lesson.
What is the members' experiences of tune learning and how much work needs to put into a tune before it is good enough to be taught or performed (leading off in a session, or in a gig)?
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning a tune
Well, in my case I need to listen to a tune at least 50 times before learning to play it.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by slainte
Re: Learning a tune
Well, it depends on whether we're talking about something fairly simple in structure, like a two part Donegal Fling or about one of those 'contangufibrulatigoramalised' new four part reels from Liz Carroll!
For the former, I guess I'd let it wash over me for a week, listening to it in the car, before trying it out.
As for a big Liz Carroll tune - I'm still working on tunes of hers I first heard about ten years ago!
Anyone who is a complete novice at learning by ear, might like to browse through this page:
http://www.zaretandsonsviolins.com/fiddlebyear.html
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Learning a tune
Many thanks, Ptarmi, for drawing our attention to that fascinating and informative article, and an equally interesting website by Zaret and Sons.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning a tune
I suppose it depends on what instrument you play. If its a Bodhran for instance you only need to hear it once. If it's the pipes you play you might need a lifetime.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Bernie
Re: Learning a tune
That's a very dangerous assertion, Bernie.
I know many bodhran players who don't need to have heard a tune at all. Don't encourage them!!!!
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning a tune
Depends on the length of the tune, for one thing. Is it two bars, or eight? That makes a difference.
Also, I'm actually most comfortable if I have learned a tune relatively well, set it aside for awhile, (say, a couple weeks,) then pick it back up again.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by TJ
Re: Learning a tune
I do not know how many times, but two hundred sounds about right. I know that it will take me usually two to three months to learn a tune.
Is that the same for any one else?
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Pól
Re: Learning a tune
And I meant to ask, not intended as a hijack of the thread, honestly, but I am learning a lot of the tunes from Ceol Aduaidh.
Is it me or are all these tunes really bloody hard?
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Pól
Re: Learning a tune
For me to really know a tune - ie be able to start it cold - I need a at least a week of dedicated practice. Most tunes that I play I just listen to and then play. My fingers know them even if my mind doesn't. I have never really 'learned' half of the tunes I play. Mostly because people are always introducing things that I haven't heard. I'll listen to it once or twice through and by then I can typically play it unless it's a really convuluted tune. But then, the jam sessions that I attend encourage people picking the tunes up by ear during the jam. Most of the workshop teachers tell people to learn in the chord and attack method. Which is the playing of chords and neutral notes until you hit a spot in the melody that you can play and then jump in. I don't typically do that, I just finger it until I know that I have it and then I jump in. I've spent many a jam not knowing ninety percent of the tunes played all night, having a blast, and making great music with my friends.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Learning a tune
There is a great difference for me learning a tune if I learn it by ear or learn it by reading the music.
It seems to stay with me learning by ear, but it takes forever to pick it out and be able to get it up to speed.
If I learn by the sheetmusic, I can master it much quicker, but seem to forget it easier then as well.
Another problem I seem to have is remembering what key a particular tune is in. I've started out many a tune in one key, only to find out that my fingering is messed up because of a sharp that isn't supposed to be there.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by rogfox
Re: Learning a tune
It's pretty fun just trying to work out tunes you don't even know.
Ceildh (sp.?) tunes are easiest because they're played over and over again.
sam
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by flamin fiddler
Re: Learning a tune
(AS in just sit on stage and have a go)
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by flamin fiddler
Re: Learning a tune
For me, I can learn a tune relativley well in a hour or two, just as long as I know how the tune goes, back to front.
Example: Yesterday I bothered my backside to finally jot down the notes to "Over the Moor to Maggie". I knew how the tune goes because I absolutley love it and then I got the hang of it within an hour.
But I once tried to play "Anderson's Reel" (a tune I don't know so well) and although its quite easy, I couldn't play it because I didn't know which way I was supposed to be playing the notes, despite the score being right in front of me :p
I'm ok with my ear. Nothing great but good enough to sit in a session and toddle along with the tunes, probably because I'm also a chord player.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by RWDPaddy
Re: Learning a tune
I've been thinking about this lately, especially after being part of entirely different approaches at two workshops I've recently been to. At the first workshop, the tutor would play the tune through once or twice, and then have us work on it, but phrase by phrase - not moving on until each and every one of us could play that phrase back - this was without any visual aids, I should add. We got through a number of tunes pretty damn quickly, actually, and by the end of the workshop I could definitely play all of the tunes, no problem.
Trouble is, I can't quite remember how they go.
Does this sound weird? What I mean to say is that when we were playing all together at the end of the workshop, my fingers knew exactly where to go, but I couldn't 'see' the tune in front of me. In the time since, I've listened to the recordings I'd made a fair few times, and played them through on my own and I'm quite comfortable with them now, but if I hadn't done this post-workshop homework, I'm not sure if they would have stayed in my fingers.
The other approach, which I gather is not uncommon, was by a tutor who wrote the tunes out in an ABC-lite format on a blackboard, and everyone had to copy them down.
This took a while. Then she played through a tune about 10 times - the first few times just the bare bones, slowly, then gradually picking up speed and adding in ornaments until she was racing away with it. A quick chat about ornaments followed, and then everybody played it through - 'sightreading' from the blackboard.
The second approach really bothered me. I'm a good sightreader, a result of my classical music training when I was young. But playing from dots - or ABC (not very good at the latter, actually) doesn't leave the tune imprinted in my memory at aoll. Learning to learn by ear was a long and painful - and recent - process for me, and I was a little dismayed to find myself in a workshop that didn't actively use ear-learning methods. I still can't play the tunes we did at that workshop, as I haven't worked on them on my own yet. One of them was Anderson's, funnily enough.
For myself, I've found the best way to learn a tune is to find as many instances of it in my CD collection as I can, put them all on my iRiver together with someone playing the tune through on a solo instrument - either recording a friend or myself playing from sheet music. Do that for a day or two until I can find myself whistling it all the way through, and then start the phrase-by-phrase work, getting it into my fingers. Practice each day for an hour or so - usually until the tune gets muddled up in my head from over-concentration and I start to get frustrated. The next day my subconcious has neatly sorted and filed the finger movements, and the playing is much better. After a week of this, it's in. A few weeks later I can start picking it a part, playing with variations and ornaments, octaving, arpeggios etc.
I should add that while this may be the best way for me to learn tunes, I don't do it very often. Who has the time? But in an ideal world, that's how I'd do it.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Q
Re: Learning a tune
For me, it entirely depends on how well the melody sticks in my head. Tunes that just click require very little practice. Other tunes, even ones I love slip away with ease. If I know a tune on the mandolin, I can transfer it pretty effortlessly to the harmonica, and vise-versa.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Learning a tune
I use the ear worm method. I put on one of the J.C abc midi files on constant repeat and have it as background as I do other things. I don't consciously listen but it seeps in anyhow. When the tune starts getting stuck in my head without the midi file playing then I start to work on it with or without the dots.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by McMandolin
Re: Learning a tune
Having been "paper-trained" all my life, when I first got into traditional music, learning by ear was not a strong skill.
Finally what I did to address the problem was to stay away from the dots entirely for one year. From August 1 to August 1, I looked at dots maybe a dozen times, only to play a tune I didn't have a recording of into my tape recorder. I found this very effective; learning by ear is much easier now.
Every couple of months, I make a tape of 1-2 dozen tunes I'd like to learn. I keep it in the car and play it at least once every day that I'm working outside my home office. Again and again, I'm able to play the tune at a session long before I would have expected to be able to do so. The subconscious is quite the sponge.
Also, I seem to learn best when it's a recording of myself playing. And I find that once I actually learn the tune, that's when I get the most out of listening to CDs of it.
Good question. Hope this is useful to someone.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Learning a tune
Some folks say your tune is not ready for performance until you can play it as soon as you get out of bed in the morning. By that standard, I should never play another gig. Or speak to anyone.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Learning a tune
For me, there's still a difference between "knowing a tune" and "learning to play a tune". That line is blurring a bit (yay!)
If I have heard a tune repeatedly (sessions, mp3 player in my car, whatever), then I can learn that tune in a tune learning session, and play it in a full speed session that very same night (although, it never feels particularly comfortable to do that...)
So that may constitute "working it" maybe only 10-15 times before playing it full speed, but I never feel like it is actually in my repertoire until I have played it in a session a couple of times.
Pete
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Reverend
Re: Learning a tune
Here's what I do-
I copy out the notes on staff paper and try it out. Then, I put it on the dashboard of my car. I sing through it while the car is warming up. Then, whenever I'm in traffic, I have a quick peek, then I sing it to myself, over and over, one part at a time.
When I get to where I'm going and am safely parked, I haul out the flute and give it a go. I like the "first thing in the morning" standard given by Bob himself.
Coming form the classical world, I am completely dot-oriented.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Learning a tune
It takes me at least 100 hearings of a tune to be able to memorize it in the first place. Doesn't seem to matter much whether those 100 hearings are from my own playing or somebody else's.
Then it takes me about another 100 playings to really get the tune down, and get the feel of it.
Then from there it takes anywhere from maybe another 15 to 20 playings up to another 100 playings, depending on how challenging a tune it is for me, to get it to where it flows properly and the difficult bits fly without hesitation.
So yeah, 200 to 300 before it's ready to play in front of anyone else is about right for me.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by sara g
Re: Learning a tune
Sometimes I can get the tune first time through, not always though.
Learning from dots or by ear, I'd say the answer as I've mentioned before, is
i) knowing your instrument
ii) knowing HOW to LISTEN
Knowing your instrument means that you command any sound, tone by thinking it - if you go to play a piece you can't start by thinking "What note does it start on?" Just like Carl Lewis or Cathy Freeman didn't think shall I start with my left or right foot. It's got to be an automatic process.
Knowing how to listen...a lot of modern technology has removed this art and peole have the fall back of recordings, instant playback etc. As with speech, when a tune is played is only like listening to a sentence. Sometimes some accents are harder to understand than others, but if it's in the same language, then the message gets through.
Brianx
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Learning a tune
While I think of it Trevor, is this Phil the fiddle/banjo in Bristol?
Also, maybe ask Wurzel about the Knotted Cord. As a beginner when I did a one to one class with him, on Lundy, I started by explaining exactly that, about listening, before going into tunes.
He had it completely in a few takes! And whenever we met up he always had it. Very nicely too, might I add.
Brianx
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Learning a tune
I don't know guys, but if the normal thing is to practice a tune 200 times before you get it right then I must be a bloody genius!
I remember in the beginning it used to take me longer to learn them (always by ear), but even then it was never more than some 15 times.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Learning a tune
You can actually learn some tunes by playing them as little as two or three times. Others take much longer.
However, before a tune becomes "part of you" and you can play it perfectly without thinking about it, this takes far longer in both cases. Many would argue that you never really get to know a tune and it can continue to surprise or delight you in some way or other.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning a tune
It's funny you mentioned that lesson, Brian - I was listening to the recordings I made of it, and the session we had the night before, this morning!
I always thought of that lesson as the most important 25 minutes of time spent in my musical learning, and use it as the basis of my teaching at the Hibernia centre to this day.
In fact, if you give my your permission, I'll put a copy on the internet and link to it from this site as others could benefit the way I did.
And one day we'll meet up again for a few more tunes!
Chris X
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Wurzel
Re: Learning a tune
I find it depends a lot on the tune itself. I tend to learn tunes that have something that stick in my memory on first hearing. Often then I can pick up the basic notes from listening to it three or four times and checking back to a recording. I tend to learn by ear these days, but without the luxury of being actually 'taught' it in a session environment. I read dots too, and like to have them around to refer to if any part of the tune is proving difficult. I keep a CD in the car of 'tunes to learn' and put them on whenever I'm driving. I also hum the tune constantly-must drive people mad! They've got used to me at work now! But then, as a nurse, most of the people I look after are mad too!
Fi
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by madmusicians
Re: Learning a tune
I fool around with ABC software. I will listen to tune after tune until I find one I would like to learn. I print it out and I play it until I can get thru it without looking (15-20 times). If I still like it, I write it in my book (http://feardearg.com/book.jpg) that contains all the titles of the tunes I know (not a lot, about 250, but I know them very well). I will then have *marathons* where I will go thru as many as I have time for. I generally play every tune I know several times a week. This is how I learn tunes and keep them in my head.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by feardearg
Re: Learning a tune
Brian, yes it was indeed Phil the fiddle/banjo teaching the fiddle at Hibernia; and his band colleague who popped his head in the door was Gavin.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning a tune
"Phil" being Phil Dawson. I'm not sure exactly where he's from, but definitely the bristol/bath area.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Wurzel
Re: Learning a tune
Well, you've got a fantastic teacher in Phil, Trevor...and Gavin! That's great, and nice to know Hibernia's still doing well. Give both my best please.
Chris, I'm honoured and deeply humbled by your comments! Take this as permission to go ahead! I think the idea of passing on the heritage is one of my aims, not just to play
I just wish I had and knew the technology to do these link things, there's lots I'd love to share.
My programme will be going out 11pm your local time now that the clocks have gone back!
Thanks, keep well,
Love and peace,
Brianx
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Learning a tune
I listen, listen and listen to the tunes and then practice, practice practice! I learned classical first and I'm now learning to fiddle! All I know is dots!
My fiddle teacher is teaching me to play ABC method and then she takes my music away and says play.
dfb
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by dfbird
Re: Learning a tune
200 timesbefore you play the tune in public? Sounds highly impractical to me. If everybody did this we could forget about sessions because we'd all know only 20 tunes
If you learn a tune from another player and not a recording surely you would have to be somewhat quicker. I think firstly you have to be fluent with your instrument i.e. know instantly where to put your fingers for the next tone (no visual aids).
Then when you are able to sing the tune you can play a basic version of it instantly.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by kuec
Re: Learning a tune
"200 timesbefore you play the tune in public?" The point Phil Dawson was making as a teacher and band leader was that you need that amount of practice in order to play the tune at a standard fit for teaching to a class, or in a ceili, or making a CD. In other words, a high standard where complete fluency is expected.
However, if you all you want to do is to know a tune well enough to take it along to the next session and play along with everyone else then you'll be able to get by with somewhat fewer than 200 times through the tune in your woodshed - which is what most of us do, I expect
Another very important piece of advice Phil gave us was "Practice Makes Permanent". In other words, practice won't make perfect if you don't practice correctly right from the start. If you're not listening to what you're doing and thinking about it then you're just as likely to finish up practicing mistakes and embedding them for ever in your technique.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning a tune
It is a week since I went to Folkworks at Hexham, UK. Of the half dozen tunes I didn't know that were taught to us aurally, at least half of them are in my head now. Of the ones I heard, found the name, then found the dots online, I still need the dots, but I am committing them to memory.
It is sometimes "how" you learn them.
Everyone has different sorts of "Favorite" tunes. If you find out your "favorite" style and learn tunes of that ilk, aren't they easier to memorise?
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Learning a tune
200 times isn't really an awful lot, you know, when you consider that most tunes last less than a minute. We play them two or three times in a row, in any case.
Of course, you can play them in sessions before that but those tunes which are really "ingrained" we must have played a damn sight more than 200 times over the years.
Sometimes, The Kesh jig gets played nearly 200 times in one night.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning a tune
I am slow, so 200 times in practice sounds about right for a tricky tune before I would try to lead it off in a session--somewhat less if I am playing along. I usually use sheet music as part of the process, especially since I started noticing that when I learn a tune in session, and then see the sheet music, I find there are often less notes in the version I learned in the session (I guess we tend to be a bit sloppy in how we play things). I would rather be exposed to different settings of the tune than just get it from one source--the process helps make sure I really "own" the tune. Kind of like the way I look at different translations, different sources and different interpretations when I study the Bible--I am not one of those that thinks that the true meaning of the text is right there, on the surface, easily understood by someone steeped in 21st century US culture! I like to open the hood and poke around in the engine, if you will.
John J, I have a feeling you might be exagerating about the Kesh, since one time through a tune takes about 30 seconds, which means that, at your session, the Kesh would be played for approximately an hour and fourty minutes. I suspect that it just FEELS like you play it 200 times.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Learning a tune
Well, if the Kesh is REALLY played up to speed at John J's session then they would get through it 200 times in 45 minutes, wouldn't they?
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning a tune
Brian's flute lesson is now online.
http://www.kaled.org.uk/flutelesson
Enjoy
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by Wurzel
Re: Learning a tune
Chris, thanks for sharing your lesson with Brian...good, accessible aural wisdom handed on there.
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning a tune
A Chris, a chara,
Go raibh maith agat! Thanks a million! And thank you for the way you've put it on the web. This is where I'm so limited, there's lots more I'd like to share this way.
A while back when there was a thread on the virtual session/ concert, I would have loved to have contributed by submitting some of the few recordings available, but I just don't have the wherewithal.
Thank you Will for your comments too...that's the basic approach I have to teaching and hopefully, if anything, I've always given a person a bagful of confidence too.
Brianx
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by briantheflute