The title of this thread alone will likely spark a firestorm, but I'd like to ask this.
The Scots sing. The English sing. The Americans sing. In all these folk music settings, there's harmony, many voices strong. The songs are fast paced, and sung informally-at parties, at sessions.
However, in Irish music, in my experience, ninety-five times out of one hundred a song means a solitary singer with no or minimalist accompaniment singing what is usually a slow song-almost dirgelike sometimes.
I can't sing, but I've tried and it's fun. I love listening to harmony vocals. But I've only once heard a song sung at a session... and it was, as stated before, a slow song with nothing but an accompanying guitar and one singing girl. No offense to the singing girl, you were fantastic. You know who you are.
But what gives? Why is it that an Irish session is tune after tune and voices are rarely raised in song? Why is it that the songs are mostly unaccompanied dirges? Why are harmony vocals almost forbidden?
Have you got protective clothing? You anticipated a reaction and there might well be one, but I'll just put my points simply and gently.
You might be going to the "wrong" sessions.
The Irish can sing, you've only got to think of all the Black family (harmonies included) Niamh Parsons, Paul Brady, Micheal O'Dhomnaill, Mossie Scanlon, the list is absolutely endless and I'm trying to mention people you might have heard of, (not the ones I know in all the little villages etc) and they all have quality voices.
As for dirges, well Ireland has had an incredible history of oppression, and the greatest ever famine and these events certainly shape some of the great ballads. But there is as much in the way of comical and "entertaining" songs as the ballads. Think of the Pool Song, the Blackbird's Lament, the one about the baby goat who wants to be a bodhran, and many, many more.
I do hoppe you get some guides to where you might find sessions which provode this. Certainly in Hobart there's no problem with songs.
There's so much wrong whith this thread I'm not sure where to begin.
Zazz, what ITM CDs are you listening to -- there are so many that feature great songs at all different tempos and moods, and some with harmonies. The songs you describe are just one exquisite example of what Irish song has to offer. My advice is that you expand your frame of influence and buy some CDs that include singers. They're plentiful... Dervish, Planxty, De Dannan, etc. etc.
Probably because you're in Cincinnati. Almost all of the sessions I've been to in Ireland have featured at least a few songs. A few have been close to 50-50 songs/tunes and there are some singers' circles that are well-established.
But, on the other hand, the singing tradition in Ireland is almost entirely solo, unaccompanied. There's almost no tradition of harmony singing, like there is in England. Harmony and accompaniment in Irish singing is recent: Clancys, Dubliners, Voice Squad, etc. I don't know why, but that's the history and the tradition.
Many of the upbeat songs are rebel songs, which are not in favor these days, when most people are hoping that the violence is about to become history.
Actually a lot of the American ballades and folk songs are Irish influenced, heavily influenced. I have some fun cd's with good Irish singing. I like it. I've only been to a few Irish music concerts but they've all featured Irish singing with harmonies and funny songs as well as slower songs and the like.
As for the sad songs - it's the Irish - all their wars were merry and all their songs were sad
Actually, did ya'll know that the English were the first people to really use thirds and sixths as primary harmonies. The French and Italian composers of both sacred and secular music only used fourths and fifths and octaves, they considered thirds and sixths to be secondary dissonances.
I know that's like extra info, but please realize that harmony as we know and perceive it is relatively young (Most English manuscripts go back to the late 1300's but not before) I don't know a lot about the history of Irish singing but I bet that it developed along similiar lines to other countries music. Which as far as historians know was all originally unaccompanied solo singing.
Of course, if people a thousand years in the future looked back at our fake books with just a single melody line then they might assume that we all sing without harmonies too. Musical history is a hard thing to study because so much of what has been learned is based on guesswork.
The Irish used to sing harmonies, in pairs. But the other one of every pair died in the Famine years and they sing solo to this day out of respect.
They also used to move their arms while dancing, but in the Troubles, to put their hands up would have been a gesture of surrender to the Tans and Auxies, so they kept them firmly down.
I heard the reason they kept the arms firmly down was that Irish dancing was banned at one point, along with just about anything else that was associated with being Irish. I don't know how true it is, but I quite liked that explanation.
As to the harmonies and instruments - the words are the important thing, harmony and accompaniment distract from that, so why would you do that?
Zazza, one of your questions was: "Why are Irish sessions tune after tune?".
By the same token I could ask why are American Jazz jam sessions tune after tune?
It's great if there's the odd song at an Irish session but they are primarily for instrumental music.
And anyway you are much more likely to hear someone burst into song in an Irish pub than in most other countries, England, Scotland and America included. Many's the time I've heard sympathetic harmony singing in pubs, and plenty of happy and humourous songs.
I would suggest broadening your experience of Irish music as a whole - maybe even, dare I say it, a trip to Ireland?
I think the harmony singing is largely English where there is a great tradition of harmony and chorus songs from people such as the copper family. My experience is that if you sing at a lot of mixed sessions people are more likely to try and accompany you which is pretty difficult for them as I mainly sing in Bflat ( by accident rather than design).
At very traditional mainly tune sessions the musicians quite often treat a song ( If they let you sing and they usually do if you show interest in the rest of the music and wait to the right point) as they would a slow air and stop playing and listen. This tends to colour what you sing at these sessions - ie stuff that you woudn't get away with in other place - unaccompanied, no chorus and usually very , very sad. I can knock them dead with the "Dead Sheep song " - from the Manx kills off an entire flock of sheep and the leaves the lambs orphans.
Certainly when I went to Sligo in the summer, there was song of all sorts in the session and even when it was unaccompanied it was varied.
I think it really just depends on the sessions in what ever country you are.
Paddy Tunney, Maighread Ni Dhomhnaill, Triona Ni Dhomhnaill, Micheal O Domhnaill, Niamh de Burca, Seosaimh O hEanai, Sean 'ac Donncha, Paul Brady, Christy Moore, Johnny Moynihan, Cyril O'Donoghue, Cathal McConnell, Ron Kavana, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Cathy Jordan, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, Mary McPartlan, Niamh Parsons, Len Graham, Padraigin Ni Uallachain, Peadar O Ceannabhain, Lasarfhiona Ni Chonaola, Brendan Begley, Seamus Begley, Seosaimhin Begley, Frank Harte, Geordie Hanna, Roisin White, Carmel Gunning, John Kennedy, Luke Kelly, Ronnie Drew, Gerry Lavery, Josie Sinclair, Sean Mone, Maggie Murphy, Helen Roche, Sean Keane, Dolores Keane, Mary Black, Maura O'Connell, Tim Lyons, Andrew Murray, Seoirse O Dochartaigh, Oisin MacDiarmada, Diarmuid O Flatharta, Delia Murphy, The Pecker Dunne, Margaret Barry, Dick Hogan, Denny Bartley ...
It took me about two or three minutes to run that very, very brief list off the top of my head ... probably less time than it took this thread's originator to pen the offensive opening post.
I'll let the names stand on their own ... no further comment is necessary.
Zazz, you ask:
"Why is it that an Irish session is tune after tune and voices are rarely raised in song? Why is it that the songs are mostly unaccompanied dirges?"
Because that's how it is.
Its like you bought an elephant, and you're asking why is it grey? why can't it be stripy like a zebra? - the answer would be so simple: buy a zebra.
If you want something different, go to something different. You're welcome here anytime - but this is what we do.
Zazz,
What is wrong with you?
Why are the songs dirges?
They aren't, but they are mostly sad.
Apart from the few that aren't.
You remind me of a woman who hired us to play at her daughter's Bat Mizvah(really). When we got there I asked why she wanted Irish music and she said she'd been on holiday in Ireland etc. etc. Her daugher loved it too etc. etc.
After half an hour she was up asking us whether we could sing some happier songs. We did “I’ll tell me ma”, and the did “Arthur McBride”, and then “The Irish Rover”, I think, and then the jolly stuff sort of petered out and she started whinging again.
True happiness can only be gained by contemplating sadness.
Now there are Irish traditional bands and Irish folk bands 2 points of note is that the folk bands are more jolly song orientated with a few sets of known jigs reels if you like, and traditional bands are more musical tune orientated with the odd sánois type song usually sang solo obviously as that is how its done with convincing authenticity. Unike the english rivals who steal good Irish tunes as there aren't many good english ones and sing "crap" songs about conquering, maypoles and sea stormes in "good" acapello
Dubliners classic Auld Triangle good harmonies
You try singing Rocky road to Dublin or finnegans wake up to speed and see how little breath you have left when you realise theres still another two verses to go theyre liveley and harmonious too
Hmm - have to agree with a lot of the comments up there.
Just one small example - the recent Derrygonnelly festival had singing sessions going non stop from noon to the wee small hours for three solid days. Singers clubs and circles abound around the country. These tend to be exclusively singing sessions. the reason is quite simple - usually only one song can be sung at a time and usually by one singer so in order to get enough chances to sing your sings tunes are almost forbidden.
There are umpteen books of songs from the irish tradition - in fact if you enter the phrase Irish Song Books into google you will get over 3 million hits!
If you want to hear a bit of fun then you could do worse than listen to any of Jimmy Crowley's recordings.
While our regular sessions locally are mostly tunes we generally have a smattering of songs in them as well and I can tell you that they are not all dirges - far from it.
I must also take issue with your comment about the English singing - I can't recall the last time that I was in an English pub and heard anyone singing traditional english folk songs. They tend to be limited to folk clubs and are very much a minority sport [unless you are going to count football chants by a load of yahoos] whereas almost every pub that I frequent for the session includes singing by, of and for the people.
Wow - I don't think I could possibly disagree more. Not sure what sort of sessions you go to but you are obviously being sorely deprived! I can't think of anything more beautiful and haunting than a solo voice singing a beautiful air (dirge?!). Harmonies are great too and this does happen in sessions though admittedly not so often. And yes, as has been said, there are heaps of comic, upbeat songs too.
P.S. Can I add Karan Casey to Aidan's list please? She has a truly beautiful voice.
"Why are harmony vocals almost forbidden?" - that's an easy one to answer, I think - because 'harmony' isn't a recognised component of ITM or ITS.
It's often the thing that marks a former classical musician, when they start into some, what to them probably sounds 'cool', harmony line to a tune, not realising that everyone else present is squirming, big time, in their underwear at the awfulness of it.
Fact is, harmonies work well in English Folk singing, Sea Shanties & the like, but they are just not a part of what ITM is all about..
ITM is about "The Pure Drop", the pure note of the song or tune.
This is a magical quality it has.
If you don't like & love that sound, then you may have to face up to the fact that just possibly, you are listening to the wrong music & song - for you.!
Within Irish Song there are a variety of styles of singing of course and one I don't particularly enjoy is the warbly type with loads of ornamnented notes which I'm afraid to me just sound like Indian or Pakistani singing.
On the otherhand, I love the purity & simplicity of the Northern style of singing. For me, the northern singers concentrate on putting the words, i.e. the story across, while the warbly singers sound like thay're just trying to show off their technique & this gets in the way of 'the song' for me.
A bit like all that operatic technique which makes you say, Wow great voice, but what the f**k was she or he singing about?
The only time I heard harmony singing work was 'some' of 'The Voice Squad' stuff. When they sang in unisen it always sounded much better though.
The songs are mostly unaccompanied because it's not so much the melody that's important, but the 'story', & the music can get in the way.
For my money, sessions only 'really' work if they're either loads & loads of tunes with an occasional song, or vice versa. I've never seen a 50/50 split work!
Zazz, I don't know if that helps, but that's how I see it.
I wholeheartedly agree with you Ptarmigan - 50/50s never seem to gel a session. We all have our preferences; I'd much prefer a ballad session over a trad session as I sing myself - as do several friends of mine. I enjoy singing upbeat material, something that people like to sing along with and always include the likes of Finnegan's Wake, Muirsheen Durkin and similar material in my repertoire. Our bodhrán player prefers to sing unaccompanied (i.e., Kilkelly Ireland, etc) and always captivates those around him when he sings. We also include intrumentals after every 3-4 songs or so (banjo, mandolin and flute), primarily to give the singers a breather. This is they type of format that myself and my friends enjoy - whether it be in a pub or over a few drinks in my front room. We've always found that audiences enjoy what we do because it is varied. Zazzaliss - it's unfortunate that you've not had an experience of Irish music that you have particularly enjoyed. Our country's musical heritage is vast - vast beyond belief. Please come to Ireland and experience it's musical glory - you will not be disappointed!
Harmony singing would blot out all the ornamentation and variation that *good* singers do. Remember that no two verses would be sung 100% alike.
It's not particularly difficult to add simple harmonies to a given tune - more a matter of practice. So the presence of harmonies says very little about the quality.
maypoles sea shanties morris dancers this stuff is kind of laughable as they really take it seriously in the clubs too where as at irish pub sessions we are not afraid to play this music to the public as its great and we know it all are welcome to listen or talk at high volume it doesnt matter we just get on with it
Grego - thanks for the full quote I couldn't remember all of it but I like it a lot.
I remember a group that was going to sing Kilkelly Island at one of the festivals I was at, an American folk duo (Atwiter and Donnelly) have made it fairly popular in the dulcimer circle. Anyways this couple was going to sing it and she was assuring me that it would sound "Celtic-y" because she sang it with an Irish accent. I almost died with laughter but managed to get away from her before I broke down . . . it was sadly hilarious.
The Irish most definately CAN sing! But whether or not you hear them really does depend on what sessions you go to! At our music sessions, depending on how many singers there are, we have a song every 5 or 6 tunes or whenever it feels right to have a break in the music! We also have traditional singing sessions where we go round the house and everyone sings.
And as for ALL Irish songs being dirgelike...well...that's simply not true! I am a singer myself and while I admit that many of the songs are sad, many of them are very beautiful if you listen to the words! Similarly, I know many songs which are lively and which always get a laugh! As a general rule traditional (sean nos) singing is unaccompanied as the voice is supposed to be used in the same way as a traditional instrument, ie, with rolls,cuts and tweedily bits, and these are lost if the song is accompanied. Also, it isn't that harmonies aren't allowed, it is just that they can be difficult to work into a song with a lot of ornamentation. Again it depends on the nature of the song - some suit harmonies and some don't.
Come to Ireland and experience it first hand! You're bound to find a irish singing style which pleases you. Perhaps sean nos singing just isn't your thing - not everyone likes it!
All this talk about what Irish song is or isn't is rubbish. The Irish singing tradition includes all sorts of settings--melody, harmony, solo and group. It includes all sorts of subjects and moods (although happy love songs are admittedly somewhat thin on the ground--something I find true about the old love songs from many cultures, however). Whether it is sean nos, or everybody roaring out an old chestnut like at a Clancy Brothers concert, it is the Irish song tradition. One might argue that harmonies are not inherently Irish, that they were brought in from foreign lands, but as we have established in other discussions, like any regional musical tradition, ITM is a mix of many influences, as people borrow what they like from other places and bring it home. I would suspect that harmony singing came to Ireland before the banjo, for example.
I think the difficulty that young master Zazzaliz has is that he has heard a couple of the poppy commercial bands, thinks "hey, I really like this ITM stuff', and has then gone out and caught a bit of the pure drop and found it spare and subtle, unlike the "entertain 'em at all costs" crowd that first caught his ear.
I say, give him time and he'll come to appreciate the good old stuff ( patronising old git that I am ) .
Funnily enough, harmonies aren't a big part of english trad either - the Coppers, and I suppose the Watersons, were quite notable exceptions to the rule when I first set foot in a folk club, back in 19hundred and frozen to death. It was the fans of bluegrass and country ( not western ) music who put on the harmonies back then.
I was told at a young age not to sing harmony, that's something Welsh people do. Non-Welsh people singing harmony sound like yr "Kilkelly" sung with a fake accent.
I know the environment from which Zazz writes, and I can say that songs and singing are far more rare than they should be, and as FiddleMeThis does point out, songs are not entirely absent from the US Midwestern session environment.
But it is difficult to learn of the great singers out here, much more so than of the great fiddlers and pipers.
Granted, the initial post might have been ... differently worded... <GG>
Aidan, I'm sorry that you found this enquiry offensive. It's much more a call for information than an indictment. But offended or not, your list of singers is wonderfully valuable, thanks!
Guernsey Pete, Zazz is deep in a trad crowd that is itself up to its armpits in pure drop. "Poppy commercial bands" in the Irish idiom are about as rare as songs in the Ohio River Valley.
I've just recently gotten a big, multi-CD collection of Seosaimh O hEanai, and it's a treasure! I enjoy Brendan Begley's singing very much also.
I hope we can encourage more and more singing in our sessions out here in the American Middle. We're always looking for singers (outside of the pubsong/rebel song vein), but it's tough...
stv,
What is wrong with people singing in the "pubsong...vein" in a pub session? Is there really a lack of singers out there, or just a lack of your kind of singers, whatever that might be.
You write that the trad crowd in the Midwest is up to its armpits in the "pure drop." I would submit that when Americans put on airs about being "pure," it is usually an exercise in futility--we are at best being true to an Irish-American tradition.
Again, I get a distinct impression that an overly narrow view of what Irish singing is or isn't may be part of the issue here.
Zazzalis, there is a multitude of absolutely brilliant singing in Irish music. Whether the style of singing you are interested in is completely traditional or not, it doesn't matter. As for why these songs haven't appeared in our regular sessions here though, I think it has got something to do with our overall preferences as a community. Our musical direction, as stv pointed out, has taken a more old style route, and there aren't many old style songs floating about the area unfortunately. Also, the people that populate our area generally prefer putting themselves out instrumentally as opposed to vocally. If you want to work up some songs, that'd be no problem by me, but keep in mind that the sessions aren't venues to show off and play fast, crazy stuff. The idea is the community, and even in singing it should be involved.
Al Brown, coming from the specific region that stv was mentioning, I think I can pretty safely say that by "pure drop" he means old style, uncommercialized music of Ireland (as an example, the fiddle playing of Paddy Canny and Bobby Casey have had a heavy influence in this area, certainly not what I would call Irish-American by any means).
madforthefiddle,
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry if you took any offense to what I said. My own personal definition of "pure drop" is pretty restrictive--those of us who work and strive for the authentic sound are never as pure as those who grow up with it and live it. I have been to only a few sessions here in the US that I would call "pure drop," usually because they were heavily populated by folks who grew up across the pond, and who had played this music their whole lives, learning it at the knees of masters.
I would call Irish music played by Americans Irish-American music--I don't restrict use of that term to stuff like the dance hall songs--"When Irish Eyes Are Smiling," etc.
Why can't the Irish sing?
Why can't the Irish sing?
The title of this thread alone will likely spark a firestorm, but I'd like to ask this.
The Scots sing. The English sing. The Americans sing. In all these folk music settings, there's harmony, many voices strong. The songs are fast paced, and sung informally-at parties, at sessions.
However, in Irish music, in my experience, ninety-five times out of one hundred a song means a solitary singer with no or minimalist accompaniment singing what is usually a slow song-almost dirgelike sometimes.
I can't sing, but I've tried and it's fun. I love listening to harmony vocals. But I've only once heard a song sung at a session... and it was, as stated before, a slow song with nothing but an accompanying guitar and one singing girl. No offense to the singing girl, you were fantastic. You know who you are.
But what gives? Why is it that an Irish session is tune after tune and voices are rarely raised in song? Why is it that the songs are mostly unaccompanied dirges? Why are harmony vocals almost forbidden?
I'd like to know, if you've an idea.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Zazzaliss
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Have you got protective clothing? You anticipated a reaction and there might well be one, but I'll just put my points simply and gently.
You might be going to the "wrong" sessions.
The Irish can sing, you've only got to think of all the Black family (harmonies included) Niamh Parsons, Paul Brady, Micheal O'Dhomnaill, Mossie Scanlon, the list is absolutely endless and I'm trying to mention people you might have heard of, (not the ones I know in all the little villages etc) and they all have quality voices.
As for dirges, well Ireland has had an incredible history of oppression, and the greatest ever famine and these events certainly shape some of the great ballads. But there is as much in the way of comical and "entertaining" songs as the ballads. Think of the Pool Song, the Blackbird's Lament, the one about the baby goat who wants to be a bodhran, and many, many more.
I do hoppe you get some guides to where you might find sessions which provode this. Certainly in Hobart there's no problem with songs.
Brianx
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
There's so much wrong whith this thread I'm not sure where to begin.
Zazz, what ITM CDs are you listening to -- there are so many that feature great songs at all different tempos and moods, and some with harmonies. The songs you describe are just one exquisite example of what Irish song has to offer. My advice is that you expand your frame of influence and buy some CDs that include singers. They're plentiful... Dervish, Planxty, De Dannan, etc. etc.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Probably because you're in Cincinnati. Almost all of the sessions I've been to in Ireland have featured at least a few songs. A few have been close to 50-50 songs/tunes and there are some singers' circles that are well-established.
But, on the other hand, the singing tradition in Ireland is almost entirely solo, unaccompanied. There's almost no tradition of harmony singing, like there is in England. Harmony and accompaniment in Irish singing is recent: Clancys, Dubliners, Voice Squad, etc. I don't know why, but that's the history and the tradition.
Many of the upbeat songs are rebel songs, which are not in favor these days, when most people are hoping that the violence is about to become history.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Actually a lot of the American ballades and folk songs are Irish influenced, heavily influenced. I have some fun cd's with good Irish singing. I like it. I've only been to a few Irish music concerts but they've all featured Irish singing with harmonies and funny songs as well as slower songs and the like.
As for the sad songs - it's the Irish - all their wars were merry and all their songs were sad
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Actually, did ya'll know that the English were the first people to really use thirds and sixths as primary harmonies. The French and Italian composers of both sacred and secular music only used fourths and fifths and octaves, they considered thirds and sixths to be secondary dissonances.
I know that's like extra info, but please realize that harmony as we know and perceive it is relatively young (Most English manuscripts go back to the late 1300's but not before) I don't know a lot about the history of Irish singing but I bet that it developed along similiar lines to other countries music. Which as far as historians know was all originally unaccompanied solo singing.
Of course, if people a thousand years in the future looked back at our fake books with just a single melody line then they might assume that we all sing without harmonies too. Musical history is a hard thing to study because so much of what has been learned is based on guesswork.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
The Irish used to sing harmonies, in pairs. But the other one of every pair died in the Famine years and they sing solo to this day out of respect.
They also used to move their arms while dancing, but in the Troubles, to put their hands up would have been a gesture of surrender to the Tans and Auxies, so they kept them firmly down.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by LastToFinish
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I heard the reason they kept the arms firmly down was that Irish dancing was banned at one point, along with just about anything else that was associated with being Irish. I don't know how true it is, but I quite liked that explanation.
As to the harmonies and instruments - the words are the important thing, harmony and accompaniment distract from that, so why would you do that?
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by tumeltyni
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I'm only half Irish, so I can sing a bit!
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by halfirish
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
That's another good reason just to play tunes - if the words are the most important thing
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Zazza, one of your questions was: "Why are Irish sessions tune after tune?".
By the same token I could ask why are American Jazz jam sessions tune after tune?
It's great if there's the odd song at an Irish session but they are primarily for instrumental music.
And anyway you are much more likely to hear someone burst into song in an Irish pub than in most other countries, England, Scotland and America included. Many's the time I've heard sympathetic harmony singing in pubs, and plenty of happy and humourous songs.
I would suggest broadening your experience of Irish music as a whole - maybe even, dare I say it, a trip to Ireland?
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Oh dear Zazza...
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Ron P
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I think the harmony singing is largely English where there is a great tradition of harmony and chorus songs from people such as the copper family. My experience is that if you sing at a lot of mixed sessions people are more likely to try and accompany you which is pretty difficult for them as I mainly sing in Bflat ( by accident rather than design).
At very traditional mainly tune sessions the musicians quite often treat a song ( If they let you sing and they usually do if you show interest in the rest of the music and wait to the right point) as they would a slow air and stop playing and listen. This tends to colour what you sing at these sessions - ie stuff that you woudn't get away with in other place - unaccompanied, no chorus and usually very , very sad. I can knock them dead with the "Dead Sheep song " - from the Manx kills off an entire flock of sheep and the leaves the lambs orphans.
Certainly when I went to Sligo in the summer, there was song of all sorts in the session and even when it was unaccompanied it was varied.
I think it really just depends on the sessions in what ever country you are.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by jfother
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Paddy Tunney, Maighread Ni Dhomhnaill, Triona Ni Dhomhnaill, Micheal O Domhnaill, Niamh de Burca, Seosaimh O hEanai, Sean 'ac Donncha, Paul Brady, Christy Moore, Johnny Moynihan, Cyril O'Donoghue, Cathal McConnell, Ron Kavana, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Cathy Jordan, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, Mary McPartlan, Niamh Parsons, Len Graham, Padraigin Ni Uallachain, Peadar O Ceannabhain, Lasarfhiona Ni Chonaola, Brendan Begley, Seamus Begley, Seosaimhin Begley, Frank Harte, Geordie Hanna, Roisin White, Carmel Gunning, John Kennedy, Luke Kelly, Ronnie Drew, Gerry Lavery, Josie Sinclair, Sean Mone, Maggie Murphy, Helen Roche, Sean Keane, Dolores Keane, Mary Black, Maura O'Connell, Tim Lyons, Andrew Murray, Seoirse O Dochartaigh, Oisin MacDiarmada, Diarmuid O Flatharta, Delia Murphy, The Pecker Dunne, Margaret Barry, Dick Hogan, Denny Bartley ...
It took me about two or three minutes to run that very, very brief list off the top of my head ... probably less time than it took this thread's originator to pen the offensive opening post.
I'll let the names stand on their own ... no further comment is necessary.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Zazz, you ask:
"Why is it that an Irish session is tune after tune and voices are rarely raised in song? Why is it that the songs are mostly unaccompanied dirges?"
Because that's how it is.
Its like you bought an elephant, and you're asking why is it grey? why can't it be stripy like a zebra? - the answer would be so simple: buy a zebra.
If you want something different, go to something different. You're welcome here anytime - but this is what we do.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Zazz,
What is wrong with you?
Why are the songs dirges?
They aren't, but they are mostly sad.
Apart from the few that aren't.
You remind me of a woman who hired us to play at her daughter's Bat Mizvah(really). When we got there I asked why she wanted Irish music and she said she'd been on holiday in Ireland etc. etc. Her daugher loved it too etc. etc.
After half an hour she was up asking us whether we could sing some happier songs. We did “I’ll tell me ma”, and the did “Arthur McBride”, and then “The Irish Rover”, I think, and then the jolly stuff sort of petered out and she started whinging again.
True happiness can only be gained by contemplating sadness.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Now there are Irish traditional bands and Irish folk bands 2 points of note is that the folk bands are more jolly song orientated with a few sets of known jigs reels if you like, and traditional bands are more musical tune orientated with the odd sánois type song usually sang solo obviously as that is how its done with convincing authenticity. Unike the english rivals who steal good Irish tunes as there aren't many good english ones and sing "crap" songs about conquering, maypoles and sea stormes in "good" acapello
Dubliners classic Auld Triangle good harmonies
You try singing Rocky road to Dublin or finnegans wake up to speed and see how little breath you have left when you realise theres still another two verses to go theyre liveley and harmonious too
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I disagree. I think there are some very good traditional singers at sessions in Cincinnati.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Hmm - have to agree with a lot of the comments up there.
Just one small example - the recent Derrygonnelly festival had singing sessions going non stop from noon to the wee small hours for three solid days. Singers clubs and circles abound around the country. These tend to be exclusively singing sessions. the reason is quite simple - usually only one song can be sung at a time and usually by one singer so in order to get enough chances to sing your sings tunes are almost forbidden.
There are umpteen books of songs from the irish tradition - in fact if you enter the phrase Irish Song Books into google you will get over 3 million hits!
If you want to hear a bit of fun then you could do worse than listen to any of Jimmy Crowley's recordings.
While our regular sessions locally are mostly tunes we generally have a smattering of songs in them as well and I can tell you that they are not all dirges - far from it.
I must also take issue with your comment about the English singing - I can't recall the last time that I was in an English pub and heard anyone singing traditional english folk songs. They tend to be limited to folk clubs and are very much a minority sport [unless you are going to count football chants by a load of yahoos] whereas almost every pub that I frequent for the session includes singing by, of and for the people.
You really need to get out more
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by breandan
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Wow - I don't think I could possibly disagree more. Not sure what sort of sessions you go to but you are obviously being sorely deprived! I can't think of anything more beautiful and haunting than a solo voice singing a beautiful air (dirge?!). Harmonies are great too and this does happen in sessions though admittedly not so often. And yes, as has been said, there are heaps of comic, upbeat songs too.
P.S. Can I add Karan Casey to Aidan's list please? She has a truly beautiful voice.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Biddy
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
"Why are harmony vocals almost forbidden?" - that's an easy one to answer, I think - because 'harmony' isn't a recognised component of ITM or ITS.
It's often the thing that marks a former classical musician, when they start into some, what to them probably sounds 'cool', harmony line to a tune, not realising that everyone else present is squirming, big time, in their underwear at the awfulness of it.
Fact is, harmonies work well in English Folk singing, Sea Shanties & the like, but they are just not a part of what ITM is all about..
ITM is about "The Pure Drop", the pure note of the song or tune.
This is a magical quality it has.
If you don't like & love that sound, then you may have to face up to the fact that just possibly, you are listening to the wrong music & song - for you.!
Within Irish Song there are a variety of styles of singing of course and one I don't particularly enjoy is the warbly type with loads of ornamnented notes which I'm afraid to me just sound like Indian or Pakistani singing.
On the otherhand, I love the purity & simplicity of the Northern style of singing. For me, the northern singers concentrate on putting the words, i.e. the story across, while the warbly singers sound like thay're just trying to show off their technique & this gets in the way of 'the song' for me.
A bit like all that operatic technique which makes you say, Wow great voice, but what the f**k was she or he singing about?
The only time I heard harmony singing work was 'some' of 'The Voice Squad' stuff. When they sang in unisen it always sounded much better though.
The songs are mostly unaccompanied because it's not so much the melody that's important, but the 'story', & the music can get in the way.
For my money, sessions only 'really' work if they're either loads & loads of tunes with an occasional song, or vice versa. I've never seen a 50/50 split work!
Zazz, I don't know if that helps, but that's how I see it.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
"For the great Gaels of Ireland
Are the men that God made mad
For all their wars are merry
And all their songs are sad"
- G K Chesterton, The Ballad of the White Horse
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by grego
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
And remember that great quote from Spike Milligan's "Puckoon":
"The Irish tenor - known and feared the world over..."
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Innocent Bystander
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I wholeheartedly agree with you Ptarmigan - 50/50s never seem to gel a session. We all have our preferences; I'd much prefer a ballad session over a trad session as I sing myself - as do several friends of mine. I enjoy singing upbeat material, something that people like to sing along with and always include the likes of Finnegan's Wake, Muirsheen Durkin and similar material in my repertoire. Our bodhrán player prefers to sing unaccompanied (i.e., Kilkelly Ireland, etc) and always captivates those around him when he sings. We also include intrumentals after every 3-4 songs or so (banjo, mandolin and flute), primarily to give the singers a breather. This is they type of format that myself and my friends enjoy - whether it be in a pub or over a few drinks in my front room. We've always found that audiences enjoy what we do because it is varied. Zazzaliss - it's unfortunate that you've not had an experience of Irish music that you have particularly enjoyed. Our country's musical heritage is vast - vast beyond belief. Please come to Ireland and experience it's musical glory - you will not be disappointed!
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Fairy Queen
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Harmony singing would blot out all the ornamentation and variation that *good* singers do. Remember that no two verses would be sung 100% alike.
It's not particularly difficult to add simple harmonies to a given tune - more a matter of practice. So the presence of harmonies says very little about the quality.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by kuec
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
maypoles sea shanties morris dancers this stuff is kind of laughable as they really take it seriously in the clubs too where as at irish pub sessions we are not afraid to play this music to the public as its great and we know it all are welcome to listen or talk at high volume it doesnt matter we just get on with it
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Grego - thanks for the full quote I couldn't remember all of it but I like it a lot.
I remember a group that was going to sing Kilkelly Island at one of the festivals I was at, an American folk duo (Atwiter and Donnelly) have made it fairly popular in the dulcimer circle. Anyways this couple was going to sing it and she was assuring me that it would sound "Celtic-y" because she sang it with an Irish accent. I almost died with laughter but managed to get away from her before I broke down . . . it was sadly hilarious.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
The Irish most definately CAN sing! But whether or not you hear them really does depend on what sessions you go to! At our music sessions, depending on how many singers there are, we have a song every 5 or 6 tunes or whenever it feels right to have a break in the music! We also have traditional singing sessions where we go round the house and everyone sings.
And as for ALL Irish songs being dirgelike...well...that's simply not true! I am a singer myself and while I admit that many of the songs are sad, many of them are very beautiful if you listen to the words! Similarly, I know many songs which are lively and which always get a laugh! As a general rule traditional (sean nos) singing is unaccompanied as the voice is supposed to be used in the same way as a traditional instrument, ie, with rolls,cuts and tweedily bits, and these are lost if the song is accompanied. Also, it isn't that harmonies aren't allowed, it is just that they can be difficult to work into a song with a lot of ornamentation. Again it depends on the nature of the song - some suit harmonies and some don't.
Come to Ireland and experience it first hand! You're bound to find a irish singing style which pleases you. Perhaps sean nos singing just isn't your thing - not everyone likes it!
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by an cuirtín
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
All this talk about what Irish song is or isn't is rubbish. The Irish singing tradition includes all sorts of settings--melody, harmony, solo and group. It includes all sorts of subjects and moods (although happy love songs are admittedly somewhat thin on the ground--something I find true about the old love songs from many cultures, however). Whether it is sean nos, or everybody roaring out an old chestnut like at a Clancy Brothers concert, it is the Irish song tradition. One might argue that harmonies are not inherently Irish, that they were brought in from foreign lands, but as we have established in other discussions, like any regional musical tradition, ITM is a mix of many influences, as people borrow what they like from other places and bring it home. I would suspect that harmony singing came to Ireland before the banjo, for example.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I think the difficulty that young master Zazzaliz has is that he has heard a couple of the poppy commercial bands, thinks "hey, I really like this ITM stuff', and has then gone out and caught a bit of the pure drop and found it spare and subtle, unlike the "entertain 'em at all costs" crowd that first caught his ear.
I say, give him time and he'll come to appreciate the good old stuff ( patronising old git that I am ) .
Funnily enough, harmonies aren't a big part of english trad either - the Coppers, and I suppose the Watersons, were quite notable exceptions to the rule when I first set foot in a folk club, back in 19hundred and frozen to death. It was the fans of bluegrass and country ( not western ) music who put on the harmonies back then.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
They can!
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I was told at a young age not to sing harmony, that's something Welsh people do. Non-Welsh people singing harmony sound like yr "Kilkelly" sung with a fake accent.
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I know the environment from which Zazz writes, and I can say that songs and singing are far more rare than they should be, and as FiddleMeThis does point out, songs are not entirely absent from the US Midwestern session environment.
But it is difficult to learn of the great singers out here, much more so than of the great fiddlers and pipers.
Granted, the initial post might have been ... differently worded... <GG>
Aidan, I'm sorry that you found this enquiry offensive. It's much more a call for information than an indictment. But offended or not, your list of singers is wonderfully valuable, thanks!
Guernsey Pete, Zazz is deep in a trad crowd that is itself up to its armpits in pure drop. "Poppy commercial bands" in the Irish idiom are about as rare as songs in the Ohio River Valley.
I've just recently gotten a big, multi-CD collection of Seosaimh O hEanai, and it's a treasure! I enjoy Brendan Begley's singing very much also.
I hope we can encourage more and more singing in our sessions out here in the American Middle. We're always looking for singers (outside of the pubsong/rebel song vein), but it's tough...
thanks,
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
I don't have Spike Milligan's book to hand but wasn't it "known and hated the world over?"
# Posted on October 29th 2005 by dafydd
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Interestingly enough, I know of a few Irish sessions in the Boston area that are singing ONLY -- maybe a few tunes here and there, but only rarely.
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by sts
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Can blue men sing the whites?
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by Jay-eye
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
stv,
What is wrong with people singing in the "pubsong...vein" in a pub session? Is there really a lack of singers out there, or just a lack of your kind of singers, whatever that might be.
You write that the trad crowd in the Midwest is up to its armpits in the "pure drop." I would submit that when Americans put on airs about being "pure," it is usually an exercise in futility--we are at best being true to an Irish-American tradition.
Again, I get a distinct impression that an overly narrow view of what Irish singing is or isn't may be part of the issue here.
# Posted on October 31st 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Thought of an example of a non-dirge-like song particularly suited to the season on my way home today....
"Did you ever eat Colcannon, made from lovely pickled cream? With the greens and scallions mingled like a picture in a dream...."
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by tumeltyni
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
Zazzalis, there is a multitude of absolutely brilliant singing in Irish music. Whether the style of singing you are interested in is completely traditional or not, it doesn't matter. As for why these songs haven't appeared in our regular sessions here though, I think it has got something to do with our overall preferences as a community. Our musical direction, as stv pointed out, has taken a more old style route, and there aren't many old style songs floating about the area unfortunately. Also, the people that populate our area generally prefer putting themselves out instrumentally as opposed to vocally. If you want to work up some songs, that'd be no problem by me, but keep in mind that the sessions aren't venues to show off and play fast, crazy stuff. The idea is the community, and even in singing it should be involved.
Al Brown, coming from the specific region that stv was mentioning, I think I can pretty safely say that by "pure drop" he means old style, uncommercialized music of Ireland (as an example, the fiddle playing of Paddy Canny and Bobby Casey have had a heavy influence in this area, certainly not what I would call Irish-American by any means).
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by madforthefiddle
Re: Why can't the Irish sing?
madforthefiddle,
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry if you took any offense to what I said. My own personal definition of "pure drop" is pretty restrictive--those of us who work and strive for the authentic sound are never as pure as those who grow up with it and live it. I have been to only a few sessions here in the US that I would call "pure drop," usually because they were heavily populated by folks who grew up across the pond, and who had played this music their whole lives, learning it at the knees of masters.
I would call Irish music played by Americans Irish-American music--I don't restrict use of that term to stuff like the dance hall songs--"When Irish Eyes Are Smiling," etc.
# Posted on November 1st 2005 by AlBrown