Hello ye all. This is my first excursion onto your discussion page. Nice to meet ye all. Let battle commence! I spent the past two nights playing sessions with guitarist Michael Sands, of Co. Down. He is busy, at present, composing an email to send round all his friends, asking them for their thoughts on the role of the Guitar in Irish Sessions. So I thought. as I only found this site today, I would get started by doing him a favour, & ask you all for your thoughts to help his little project along. For my part, I love a good guitar player in a session, for they can add so much light & shade, rythm & colour to the proceedings. I'm so used to playing with a good guitarist, that when we have no guitar with us, we really do miss all those lovely harmonics, & the drive that it offers, in the right hands. I, like ye all, have had to endure bad guitar players, who only knew three chords, didn't listen to tune changes or key changes & had about as much sense of rythm as a turnip! But hey, I've met guys like that playing all the other instruments as well, so I reckon it's time to give the good guitar players a break. I am of the opinion however, that while a couple of whistles, flutes or a few fiddles in a session works well, you only really need one guitar, bodhran, banjo, accordion or set of pipes. If you have two of any of these other instruments involved, they always seem to be fighting with each other for attention, & clashing. Well that's my twopence worth anyway, for what it's worth. What do you think? All correspondance on this subject will be relayed back to Michael for scrutiny, so please be gentle with him!
I play guitar, bohdran, spoons, and misc. percussion. I agree that only one of any of the above are needed in a session. That's mostly why I've tried to learn a bunch of instruments. I can adapt to what the session requires. If another drummer shows up we usually take turns or I just switch to guitar. When another guitar player shows up though , there are some possibilities. If the other guitar player does a lot of finger picking, I'll add the rhythm or I'll finger pick while they play rhythm. If we both want to play rhythm, I'll try the capo up the neck to thicken the texture, or I'll try a different tuning so that the instruments can compliment each other. It takes some work but worth the trouble!
Brent
I don't think I've ever heard anyone here at The Session put down guitars as accompaniment instruments. Just bad guitar players.
Once upon a time, ie: the 1950's and early 60's and previous, guitar was not only looked at askance but actively discouraged as accompaniment for ITM. (Kevin Burke remembers players ranting about the horribleness of it when he began playing.) However, it's important to remember that so was everything else. Accompaniment was considered wrong overall; the music was just fine on its own, thanks. (And it still can be, if there's no accompaniment available, in the hands of a good player or players.)
Bands such as Planxty and The Bothy Band really changed that, which is partially why their recordings are still revered by players and fans alike. (The fact that they're stellar players was, of course, the main reason.) Now, largely due to the influence of bands like these, there are many people who have no idea that accompaniment wasn't part of the tradition previous to the 50's (ceili bands aside and all). Insofar as I know, it was largely Andy Irvine brought in the zouks to the tradition. (Feel free to correct me, anybody.) I'm not sure who really started the guitar thing. However, it was not without struggle.
My own personal fav for accompaniment are zouks, but I also love a good guitar accomp. But I'd rather deal with no accompaniment than bad accompaniment. Bad accomp really throws everything off. The difference between playing with, say, a good bodhran player and a bad one is unbelievable, like night and day.
Barry Foy gives a guideline of one accompaniment player of a sort to every 7-10 players of other instruments. And Kevin Glackin told me that large sessions (over about 7 people) are not really good ways to enjoy the music. He prefers smaller sessions of 4 or 5 players. Therefore, then, only one of any kind of accompanist would be needed.
Anyway, I wish more accompanists had it as together as you, Brent. Working together with other accompanists makes for better music.
I'm in agreement with much of what has already been said. Good guitar players can be a great asset when they are sympathetic to the music and do not drive the pace of the tunes.
For my own part I feel that in order to provide quality accompaniment it is essential to understand the tunes being played. In such instances it is more likely that reasonably competent guitar players can intertwine with the melody thus avoiding the heavy percussive backing that we all too often encounter
My first serious experience of ITM was the Bothy Band and that had two effects. I thought all tunes had to be played really fast and I completely accepted guitar and bouzouki acompaniment as part of the tradition. As a fiddler I still like playing fast but do apply discretion occasionally (ceilis taught me that a long time ago) and I definitely prefer having an accompanying instrument like a guitar or bouzouki as they can add so much to the dynamic of a tune when played with discernment. I wonder if all the harpers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries were bemoaning all these new-fangled "fiddlers"?
I have seen two or more of all of the instruments mentioned above, the ones that should not double up as they fight for attention, in sessions and it has worked beautifully, it just depends on who's driving them and the whole attitude of the session I guess, and I have seen fiddles and flutes fight for attention. Acompaniment is great when it is appropriate.
Can you do me a favour and say hello to Michael for me? Tell him Conán was asking about him and I hope he, Catherine and the babóg are keeping well!
My personal opinion is that in a small to medium sized session (4 - 10 players) one guitar is enough and, especially in a session where there are quite a few beginner players, it's absolutely necessary. Mind you, guitar and bouzouki can co-exist quite happily in a session as long as the respective styles of the players complement each other. I agree with others who say that it's essential the guitarist is at least vaguely familiar with the tunes they're accompanying, although just like a good melody player, a decent, experienced accompanist can usually pick up the structure of a tune by the second hearing.
Of course, there are so many different styles of accompaniment on guitar and they don't all suit the same kinds of session; everything from Steve Cooney's (and dare I say it, Michael Sand's) powerhouse playing right through to Arty McGlynn, Paul Mc Sherry and Eoghan O'Brien at the more subtle end of the scale, although Steve and Michael are well capable of changing when necessary. I remember the Belfast folk festival in 1989 when I was lucky enough to play in a session with all the top musicians who were staying in the York Hotel at the time - it was really interesting to watch Steve Cooney and Arty McGlynn together as both toned down their style to suit the other. I think Irish guitarists have really paved the way for other folk guitarists to become respected in their own right; people like Soig Siberil, Tony McManus and Knut Reiersrud spring to mind here.
On a pedantic footnote I believe it was actually Johnny Moynihan who introduced the bouzouki to Irish music, when he first played it with Andy Irvine and Joe Dolan in Sweeney's Men (so Mr Irvine says anyway).
Guitars in Irish Sessions
Guitars in Irish Sessions
Hello ye all. This is my first excursion onto your discussion page. Nice to meet ye all. Let battle commence! I spent the past two nights playing sessions with guitarist Michael Sands, of Co. Down. He is busy, at present, composing an email to send round all his friends, asking them for their thoughts on the role of the Guitar in Irish Sessions. So I thought. as I only found this site today, I would get started by doing him a favour, & ask you all for your thoughts to help his little project along. For my part, I love a good guitar player in a session, for they can add so much light & shade, rythm & colour to the proceedings. I'm so used to playing with a good guitarist, that when we have no guitar with us, we really do miss all those lovely harmonics, & the drive that it offers, in the right hands. I, like ye all, have had to endure bad guitar players, who only knew three chords, didn't listen to tune changes or key changes & had about as much sense of rythm as a turnip! But hey, I've met guys like that playing all the other instruments as well, so I reckon it's time to give the good guitar players a break. I am of the opinion however, that while a couple of whistles, flutes or a few fiddles in a session works well, you only really need one guitar, bodhran, banjo, accordion or set of pipes. If you have two of any of these other instruments involved, they always seem to be fighting with each other for attention, & clashing. Well that's my twopence worth anyway, for what it's worth. What do you think? All correspondance on this subject will be relayed back to Michael for scrutiny, so please be gentle with him!
# Posted on August 24th 2002 by Ptarmigan
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
I play guitar, bohdran, spoons, and misc. percussion. I agree that only one of any of the above are needed in a session. That's mostly why I've tried to learn a bunch of instruments. I can adapt to what the session requires. If another drummer shows up we usually take turns or I just switch to guitar. When another guitar player shows up though , there are some possibilities. If the other guitar player does a lot of finger picking, I'll add the rhythm or I'll finger pick while they play rhythm. If we both want to play rhythm, I'll try the capo up the neck to thicken the texture, or I'll try a different tuning so that the instruments can compliment each other. It takes some work but worth the trouble!
Brent
# Posted on August 25th 2002 by bknjholl
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
I don't think I've ever heard anyone here at The Session put down guitars as accompaniment instruments. Just bad guitar players.
Once upon a time, ie: the 1950's and early 60's and previous, guitar was not only looked at askance but actively discouraged as accompaniment for ITM. (Kevin Burke remembers players ranting about the horribleness of it when he began playing.) However, it's important to remember that so was everything else. Accompaniment was considered wrong overall; the music was just fine on its own, thanks. (And it still can be, if there's no accompaniment available, in the hands of a good player or players.)
Bands such as Planxty and The Bothy Band really changed that, which is partially why their recordings are still revered by players and fans alike. (The fact that they're stellar players was, of course, the main reason.) Now, largely due to the influence of bands like these, there are many people who have no idea that accompaniment wasn't part of the tradition previous to the 50's (ceili bands aside and all). Insofar as I know, it was largely Andy Irvine brought in the zouks to the tradition. (Feel free to correct me, anybody.) I'm not sure who really started the guitar thing. However, it was not without struggle.
My own personal fav for accompaniment are zouks, but I also love a good guitar accomp. But I'd rather deal with no accompaniment than bad accompaniment. Bad accomp really throws everything off. The difference between playing with, say, a good bodhran player and a bad one is unbelievable, like night and day.
Barry Foy gives a guideline of one accompaniment player of a sort to every 7-10 players of other instruments. And Kevin Glackin told me that large sessions (over about 7 people) are not really good ways to enjoy the music. He prefers smaller sessions of 4 or 5 players. Therefore, then, only one of any kind of accompanist would be needed.
Anyway, I wish more accompanists had it as together as you, Brent. Working together with other accompanists makes for better music.
Zina
# Posted on August 25th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
I'm in agreement with much of what has already been said. Good guitar players can be a great asset when they are sympathetic to the music and do not drive the pace of the tunes.
For my own part I feel that in order to provide quality accompaniment it is essential to understand the tunes being played. In such instances it is more likely that reasonably competent guitar players can intertwine with the melody thus avoiding the heavy percussive backing that we all too often encounter
The Fiddler
# Posted on August 25th 2002 by The Fiddler
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
Guitars are paramount.
# Posted on August 25th 2002 by SPeak
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
My first serious experience of ITM was the Bothy Band and that had two effects. I thought all tunes had to be played really fast and I completely accepted guitar and bouzouki acompaniment as part of the tradition. As a fiddler I still like playing fast but do apply discretion occasionally (ceilis taught me that a long time ago) and I definitely prefer having an accompanying instrument like a guitar or bouzouki as they can add so much to the dynamic of a tune when played with discernment. I wonder if all the harpers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries were bemoaning all these new-fangled "fiddlers"?
# Posted on August 25th 2002 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
I have seen two or more of all of the instruments mentioned above, the ones that should not double up as they fight for attention, in sessions and it has worked beautifully, it just depends on who's driving them and the whole attitude of the session I guess, and I have seen fiddles and flutes fight for attention. Acompaniment is great when it is appropriate.
# Posted on August 25th 2002 by geb
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
Oh, and by the way, Ptarmigan -- welcome to The Session!
Zina
# Posted on August 26th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
Hi Ptarmigan
Can you do me a favour and say hello to Michael for me? Tell him Conán was asking about him and I hope he, Catherine and the babóg are keeping well!
My personal opinion is that in a small to medium sized session (4 - 10 players) one guitar is enough and, especially in a session where there are quite a few beginner players, it's absolutely necessary. Mind you, guitar and bouzouki can co-exist quite happily in a session as long as the respective styles of the players complement each other. I agree with others who say that it's essential the guitarist is at least vaguely familiar with the tunes they're accompanying, although just like a good melody player, a decent, experienced accompanist can usually pick up the structure of a tune by the second hearing.
Of course, there are so many different styles of accompaniment on guitar and they don't all suit the same kinds of session; everything from Steve Cooney's (and dare I say it, Michael Sand's) powerhouse playing right through to Arty McGlynn, Paul Mc Sherry and Eoghan O'Brien at the more subtle end of the scale, although Steve and Michael are well capable of changing when necessary. I remember the Belfast folk festival in 1989 when I was lucky enough to play in a session with all the top musicians who were staying in the York Hotel at the time - it was really interesting to watch Steve Cooney and Arty McGlynn together as both toned down their style to suit the other. I think Irish guitarists have really paved the way for other folk guitarists to become respected in their own right; people like Soig Siberil, Tony McManus and Knut Reiersrud spring to mind here.
On a pedantic footnote I believe it was actually Johnny Moynihan who introduced the bouzouki to Irish music, when he first played it with Andy Irvine and Joe Dolan in Sweeney's Men (so Mr Irvine says anyway).
# Posted on August 26th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
It was Johnny Moynihan with the bazooka.
And although he may not have been the first, give Eddie Fury the credit for the guitar.
And if any one "fights for attention" in a session, they should be thrown out
# Posted on August 26th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Guitars in Irish Sessions
Oh No, its session etiquette again
# Posted on August 29th 2002 by timjellies