My zouk is very soft-toned, but I can usually hear myself, at least, and to me that's what counts. I try to play in a position such that I can make out what I'm doing.
I guess this heralds an intensive discussion on the topic "why play if no one hears you"/"if you play an instrument in a forest does it make a noise?"
I think thats the idea of the zouk as opposed to a guitar is that it doesn't intrude on the music as much well thats what Lunny said in an interview anyway he also said on the planxty DVD interview about it being a pariticialary hard instrument to get across. I suppose in short he is making very little go a long way in his career as on some of the recordings he is credited to, you can bareley hear his contribution to it at all. one smart bugger I guess. As for the sessions I think they are somewhat a little lost in the background in my experience the mandolins higher register will allways sound paramount to the tones of a mandola or zouk, it's an awful realisation after spending out on a good one too ! sorry ;-(
Our group of musicians find that a session should be for the musicians to play, so each person can hear the next. To compliment or accompany each other. That is why we have had to move out of the pub and in to our homes to try and control the volumeand balance. We used to be at the local pub and would have 13 or 14 musicians show up, spread so far apart the from one end to the other....that there could be 2 differnt tunes at the same time(a real mess). I like sessions for learning tunes and this can only be done with a smaller group. Sessions at our pubs are unfortunately turning into "performaces".
Face it ...if you are in a pub..it will be noisy....The next thing is to amplify the musicians....and I am not interested in that at all
For some nice examples of bouzoukis' placement in ensemble and session playing, have a listen to Eoin O'Neill's CD "In Session," Siobhan Peoples' and Murty Ryan's "Time On Our Hands." On Liz Carroll's "Lost In The Loop," Zan McLeod's playing along with John Doyle on guitar is very nicely mixed, and on Zan's CD with James Kelly, "The Ring Sessions" Zan plays guitar & zouk together very nicely.
I'm sure there are others... There are fewer recordings (that I know of) that sound like sessions, with zouks in them, than there are nicely balanced studio/ensemble recordings.
Having said that, the "Pacific Rim" manufacturers' instruments are not really ... um... let's say "assertive" in volume nor tone, right out of the box. I know of some players who have made some upgrades and had professional set-ups done to their PacRim instruments and have gotten some significant improvements.
My zouk is loud, and so I get to work at playing more softly. I like it better than way than the other way round... <GG>
Maybe try a heavier plectrum, slightly heavier strings, or even sit in another seat, you would be very surprised the way the sound of a bouzouki can travel just by moving position.
Dont give up on the Samick yet after just one bad experience!
All the best, Seanie.
The session I'm speaking of would have had about 15-20 people there. It varies alot. On that particular night there were two accordion players and a hammer dulcimer player. It's an area with hardwood floor, high ceilings, lots of polished wood and glass everywhere.
It's interesting, but I can just hear myself if I sit behind someone, using his her/back to reflect the noise.
I play a rather small-bodied OM (Weber Sage) that has always been rather quiet -- but very sweet to play and hear (when you can). I got tired of losing myself entirely in the "wall of fiddles" and finally broke down and put a McIntosh piezo pickup in it, and I use a (gasp!) small acoustic amp at gigs and in our large jams. I can raise or lower the volume to hear myself. But I wouldn't feel comfortable strolling up to an unfamiliar session with the amp (I'm sure there's a thread that dis's that pretty strongly!). I've been playing around with a tenor banjo (sometimes even tuned to the same GDAD that I use on the OM) for those times when I want some Really Piercing Volume.
I think it just goes with the territory for these mellow, low-voiced instruments.
Chris - the irish bouzouki is designed for intimate, small group performances, not a 15-20 piece "orchestra". This is true of even the loudest members of the breed; the modest volume output compared to a big dreadnought guitar is not a "bug" but a desirable feature.
little trick for zouk/ mando players to help hear themselves; get a little music stand to rest at about the height of the soundhole when you're sitting, and angle it up towards yourself with something hard (cardboard, empty binder, etc) on it. It bounces the sound back up at your ears. The trouble is that these instruments are meant to project out, not up. The next step is to actually go as far as to cut a hole in the side of your zouk/ mando so sound is actually coming up at you. Not something you'd want to do to a Sobell or something, but could consider it with something cheaper.
Lunny the fraud, no sarcasm or wit there it's 100% true I'm afraid I prefer his handywork on the baroque guitar whats hard about "chinka chinka chinka ching ching ching"
I play a pacific rim instrument too, and it markedly improved after I fitted a modified Red Henry pattern bridge to it. Go back on the bouzouki entries to find the link, back in about January I think I first raised a query, and got a useful link through to Red Henrys' site. The basic idea is a one-piece bridge made out of maple, with two feet standing on the soundboard leaving the central area under the strings free to resonate without the bridge deadening it, plus the whole structure carved and cut to maximise efficient transfer of string energy to the soundboard.
There is also the problem, as mentioned, that the 'zouk throws sound forward, and you may actually be audible to others, even if not yourself ( though where's the pleasure in that ?) . Check with someone further down the bar. Fiddles, of course, throw sound more or less back into the players' face.
It may be worth some experimentation with string materials and weights, also plectrum weights - I actually use a lighter plectrum for the sound I prefer. Also, do you pluck with your plectrum parallel to the strings, or at an angle ? You may find the latter looses you some volume.
Ultimatly you only want to be in balance with the other musicians. Flute players struggle with this all the time.
Another point to make constructivley is that you get a stronger sound with the G & D courses tuned in unison rather than with 12 stringesque thin octaves.
Just like Lunny the fraudster I would say the biggest gangsta in ITM for taking the T out of it
funny...my weber is almost as loud as my fylde! I replaced the wood saddle with a bone job on my weber and it improved the volume on it considerably. The fylde needs to be played softly or it'll drown out anything
I build 'zouks that I've been told are very loud. Not sure exactly every little thing that contributes to that, but one thing I can almost guarantee to add volume to any instrument-
switch out a bone or plastic saddle & replace it with 'Tusq' material from 'Graph Tech'.
Its a man made material made under high pressure. I use natural bone for nuts but with 80 odd instruments built I can say a 'Tusq' saddle consistently brings out 10-15% more volume out of anything I have put one on. Beefier lows & brighter highs too. Cheap- cost is about $8.00 Canadian.
Take a nice bone nut- throw it on a hard floor- kinda goes 'cling'- do the same with a piece of 'tusq'- sounds like a plate glass window breaking in comparison.
Cant say enough about the stuff. I have no affiliation with graph tech by the way. A lot of the well known better guitar companies use it too. FWIW
Irish bouzouki at sessions
Irish bouzouki at sessions
Just started taking my recently acquired Samick Irish Bouzouki to sessions, and I'm having trouble not getting drowned out.
Is this a common problem for bouzouki players? Or did I just buy a dud?
A bit depressing: my other session instrument is mandolin ... always the first instrument to get drowned out in the din.
(thinking of buying a stephoscope so I can hear myself)
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by Deaf Frets
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
My zouk is very soft-toned, but I can usually hear myself, at least, and to me that's what counts. I try to play in a position such that I can make out what I'm doing.
I guess this heralds an intensive discussion on the topic "why play if no one hears you"/"if you play an instrument in a forest does it make a noise?"
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by sts
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
I think thats the idea of the zouk as opposed to a guitar is that it doesn't intrude on the music as much well thats what Lunny said in an interview anyway he also said on the planxty DVD interview about it being a pariticialary hard instrument to get across. I suppose in short he is making very little go a long way in his career as on some of the recordings he is credited to, you can bareley hear his contribution to it at all. one smart bugger I guess. As for the sessions I think they are somewhat a little lost in the background in my experience the mandolins higher register will allways sound paramount to the tones of a mandola or zouk, it's an awful realisation after spending out on a good one too ! sorry ;-(
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Ah yes. Lunny the fraud.
I mean...what ?
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by BegF
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Chris, are you saying you can't hear yourself or is it
you can hear yourself but you think others can't hear you.
What size session by the way ?
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by BegF
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
I think any session where anyone at all is struggling to be heard is, by definition, not a very good session
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by ...
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Our group of musicians find that a session should be for the musicians to play, so each person can hear the next. To compliment or accompany each other. That is why we have had to move out of the pub and in to our homes to try and control the volumeand balance. We used to be at the local pub and would have 13 or 14 musicians show up, spread so far apart the from one end to the other....that there could be 2 differnt tunes at the same time(a real mess). I like sessions for learning tunes and this can only be done with a smaller group. Sessions at our pubs are unfortunately turning into "performaces".
Face it ...if you are in a pub..it will be noisy....The next thing is to amplify the musicians....and I am not interested in that at all
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by bouzoukiboy
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
For some nice examples of bouzoukis' placement in ensemble and session playing, have a listen to Eoin O'Neill's CD "In Session," Siobhan Peoples' and Murty Ryan's "Time On Our Hands." On Liz Carroll's "Lost In The Loop," Zan McLeod's playing along with John Doyle on guitar is very nicely mixed, and on Zan's CD with James Kelly, "The Ring Sessions" Zan plays guitar & zouk together very nicely.
I'm sure there are others... There are fewer recordings (that I know of) that sound like sessions, with zouks in them, than there are nicely balanced studio/ensemble recordings.
Having said that, the "Pacific Rim" manufacturers' instruments are not really ... um... let's say "assertive" in volume nor tone, right out of the box. I know of some players who have made some upgrades and had professional set-ups done to their PacRim instruments and have gotten some significant improvements.
My zouk is loud, and so I get to work at playing more softly. I like it better than way than the other way round... <GG>
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Maybe try a heavier plectrum, slightly heavier strings, or even sit in another seat, you would be very surprised the way the sound of a bouzouki can travel just by moving position.
Dont give up on the Samick yet after just one bad experience!
All the best, Seanie.
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by seaniemcg
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Stv: Pac Rim upgrades and professional set-ups. Intriguing. Can you please provide some more detail?
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by grego
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
BegF,
The session I'm speaking of would have had about 15-20 people there. It varies alot. On that particular night there were two accordion players and a hammer dulcimer player. It's an area with hardwood floor, high ceilings, lots of polished wood and glass everywhere.
It's interesting, but I can just hear myself if I sit behind someone, using his her/back to reflect the noise.
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by Deaf Frets
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
i would definatly advise against the heavier plectrum but can anyone really hear themselves that much i mean honestly?
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by AEisenheim
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
I play a rather small-bodied OM (Weber Sage) that has always been rather quiet -- but very sweet to play and hear (when you can). I got tired of losing myself entirely in the "wall of fiddles" and finally broke down and put a McIntosh piezo pickup in it, and I use a (gasp!) small acoustic amp at gigs and in our large jams. I can raise or lower the volume to hear myself. But I wouldn't feel comfortable strolling up to an unfamiliar session with the amp (I'm sure there's a thread that dis's that pretty strongly!). I've been playing around with a tenor banjo (sometimes even tuned to the same GDAD that I use on the OM) for those times when I want some Really Piercing Volume.
I think it just goes with the territory for these mellow, low-voiced instruments.
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by roaringj
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Chris - the irish bouzouki is designed for intimate, small group performances, not a 15-20 piece "orchestra". This is true of even the loudest members of the breed; the modest volume output compared to a big dreadnought guitar is not a "bug" but a desirable feature.
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by Hanley
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Ah yes. Lunny the fraud.
I mean...what ?
# Posted on Wednesday, October 26th 2005 by BegF
Are you serious?
Phil
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by wvwhistler
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
I guess not ,or should know better.
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by wvwhistler
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
honest opinion?
find a new session!!!
I usually play with 3 - 5 others.
Once it gets bigger as a backer you are struggling on zouk.
for big sessions, learn the tunes and play melodies!
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Whistle Bare, I was replying to MacTheWife with more than just a hint of sarcasm.
I know, the lowest form of with wit.
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by BegF
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
little trick for zouk/ mando players to help hear themselves; get a little music stand to rest at about the height of the soundhole when you're sitting, and angle it up towards yourself with something hard (cardboard, empty binder, etc) on it. It bounces the sound back up at your ears. The trouble is that these instruments are meant to project out, not up. The next step is to actually go as far as to cut a hole in the side of your zouk/ mando so sound is actually coming up at you. Not something you'd want to do to a Sobell or something, but could consider it with something cheaper.
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by downtowndalebrown
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Lunny the fraud, no sarcasm or wit there it's 100% true I'm afraid I prefer his handywork on the baroque guitar whats hard about "chinka chinka chinka ching ching ching"
No jokes about the chinese phone book
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
I play a pacific rim instrument too, and it markedly improved after I fitted a modified Red Henry pattern bridge to it. Go back on the bouzouki entries to find the link, back in about January I think I first raised a query, and got a useful link through to Red Henrys' site. The basic idea is a one-piece bridge made out of maple, with two feet standing on the soundboard leaving the central area under the strings free to resonate without the bridge deadening it, plus the whole structure carved and cut to maximise efficient transfer of string energy to the soundboard.
There is also the problem, as mentioned, that the 'zouk throws sound forward, and you may actually be audible to others, even if not yourself ( though where's the pleasure in that ?) . Check with someone further down the bar. Fiddles, of course, throw sound more or less back into the players' face.
It may be worth some experimentation with string materials and weights, also plectrum weights - I actually use a lighter plectrum for the sound I prefer. Also, do you pluck with your plectrum parallel to the strings, or at an angle ? You may find the latter looses you some volume.
Ultimatly you only want to be in balance with the other musicians. Flute players struggle with this all the time.
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
Another point to make constructivley is that you get a stronger sound with the G & D courses tuned in unison rather than with 12 stringesque thin octaves.
Just like Lunny the fraudster I would say the biggest gangsta in ITM for taking the T out of it
# Posted on October 28th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
funny...my weber is almost as loud as my fylde! I replaced the wood saddle with a bone job on my weber and it improved the volume on it considerably. The fylde needs to be played softly or it'll drown out anything
# Posted on October 30th 2005 by zoukmike
Re: Irish bouzouki at sessions
I build 'zouks that I've been told are very loud. Not sure exactly every little thing that contributes to that, but one thing I can almost guarantee to add volume to any instrument-
switch out a bone or plastic saddle & replace it with 'Tusq' material from 'Graph Tech'.
Its a man made material made under high pressure. I use natural bone for nuts but with 80 odd instruments built I can say a 'Tusq' saddle consistently brings out 10-15% more volume out of anything I have put one on. Beefier lows & brighter highs too. Cheap- cost is about $8.00 Canadian.
Take a nice bone nut- throw it on a hard floor- kinda goes 'cling'- do the same with a piece of 'tusq'- sounds like a plate glass window breaking in comparison.
Cant say enough about the stuff. I have no affiliation with graph tech by the way. A lot of the well known better guitar companies use it too. FWIW
Rory
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by rdguit