I was just reading the post on the "worst trad concert ever heard," and someone brought up the point about the Chieftans sounding awful (!), because their mix was off.
As it so happens, my band played a festival this past weekend, and my husband, who is also our sound guy, noticed that we had been given just enough wrist bands for the "playing" members of the band.
He was a bit offended by this, and made the excellent point that without him, we'd be at the mercy of whatever volunteer sound talent this small festival would provide for us...a person who is not familiar with the band, has never heard us play, and who has no idea of what our mix should ideally be. Especially since we get a generous 15 minutes to set up *and* do a sound check.
Ergo...should the sound man/woman be considered a member of the band as important as, say, the lead singer/player? I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this subject.
As regards the "relative importance" of different members of the band (is he as important as the lead singer/player?") - don't go there, just back off and put the gun down.
What an enlightened bunch you are! I begged, pleaded with a couple of bands I played in to please please give up a few bucks each so we could have our own sound person (although it is always a guy, isn't it?). But they remained unconvinced that it was a good investment, the morons.
Or maybe it was just that we couldn't find a guy with the requisite short stature and muttonchop sideburns.... ;>}
Anyway, yes, the sound guy is a member of the band, in my book.
Whenever we have concert gigs we ALWAYS have a sound man. It takes all the pressure of the band to get the sound right so anyone who doubts the importance of a good sound man is deluding themselves.
We're lucky as our soundman is Dennis McDermott who was the principal dancer with Lord of the Dance in America and he always does two or three dances during the sets. So, in our case, definitely part of the band.
My husband is our engineer and is every bit a part of the band. When we do festivals where an engineer is provided, my husband normally comes to advise - and has taken over the desk on a couple of occasions. Last weekend we were lucky that he was the paid engineer for the festival we were at - actually he is now working at more festivals than the band!!
As far as contributing - his equipment cost about 10 times more than the instruments in the band so the small amount he earns from gigs nowhere compensates for his investment. He just enjoys it - well most of the time anyway - unloading the van at 2 am in the pouring rain after a gig that hasn't gone as well as expected is never a delight!!
"Must consider the love of the band payment enough, have own extensive equipment and transport, be available instantly anywhere, and be cheap to feed".
We couldn't find anyone like that so we do it ourselves...
This has the advantage that when you nip down onto the floor to hear everyone else, you aren't playing, so you can't get too precious about yourself, as doubtless some would otherwise.
sound PERSONS are essential, especially if you're unfortunate enough to have a drummer or electric bass in the band. even with just an acoustic duo or trio it's worth it to have someone you trust on the board. i bring my son whenever possible, he likes to make old dad sound good.
For the record: the best sound guy I ever knew was a gal! And she was definately considered a member of the band.
When you have a band that uses a lot of miked acoustic instuments, if the sound person is clueless, it doesn't matter how good anyone plays it will all sound like a jumble of noise.
I think it’s a crime – or at least a misdemeanor – the way some festival and concert organizers will leave the sound engineering to whoever volunteers for it. When you’re producing an *audio* product, why skimp on the *audio* presentation? Surely, it’s worth allocating some funds to get it done right.
My band seems to think that our own sound guy is only a member when we've got a low-paying gig. If there's more money involved, he's not "invited" so there's more per individual! Since he's my husband, it's hard to aruge without seeming biased...and I guess the others figure that our guitar-playing "leader" who is losing his hearing is a fit substitute. Sigh.
And regarding volunteers for sound engineers, yes, it is a crime, and a really grave one. It does not apply only to the pure audio product, but also to any product where sound is involved. Most of these guys think that once you have a bass boost, everything is okay. Well, it isn't, in most cases. Sound management requires a lot of knowledge, including physics and other difficult words. And a lot of practice. And a lot of sensitivity. This is the person, who is responsible for the final outcome of the gig. He's dealing the cards and needs to be extremely careful, talented, swift and intelligent.
That's why the guy in charge of the overall performance is, in most cases, a part-time electrician.
But Janek--who, then, adjusts your fiddler's sound? It's physically impossible for a fiddler to hear only the sound system while he's playing--unless he's using a solid-body electric fiddle, or always plays the fiddle down by his waist, maybe.
And ideally, the sound engineer will be at the board during the performance to make tiny adjustments as needed. In a perfect world, anyway.
Every teacher knows that the most important people in a school are the secretary and the custodian (right, dmarie?), so, therefore, no matter how well the band plays, it's all for naught if the sound person is off.
Ptarmigan is right, once again (see above)... best seat, keep the drinks comin'...consider it an investment.
Is it possible/thinkable when you apply for a gig at a festival that you include the soundboardist as a member of the band?
On the applications I've seen, it asks for number in band or maybe names.
Frequently, you get an additional sheet to diagram the mikes, directs, etc, but I am absolutely positive that nobody ever looks at them.
The thought of a vol on the board is scary, but I'm fairly sure they couldn't screw it up worse than some of the hired guns.
I notice that those who have been or are in bands all seem to feel that yes, the sound tech is a member of the band. The voices of experience!
But then since my brother used to be a theatre sound and light tech, and sound engineered a bunch of concerts on the side, I suppose I'm prejudiced in favor of the voices of experience.
Mickray, yes, it's not ideal. But we don't earn so much as to have a sound engineer around, and our fiddler can at least set the controls so that you can hear what we play. It is, I would say, the best bargain deal we can get.
The best advice I was given was never p*ss off your sound engineer - he can help your performance - or he destroy it. An American friend of mine was taking part in a concert where one performer annoyed the engineer. When he came on he thought he sounded brilliant in the monitors - what he didn't know was that the engineer had switched most of the house sound off!
Evil, bad or p*ssed off sound engineer stories could make an encyclopaedia on their own. I myself could throw in some interesting stories, with at least a dozen cases when the sound guy forgot to turn on the microphone of the solo singer, and realizing it later, started messing with the mixer, giving all sorts of funny effects. But the best story so far was when we were performing Polish folk dance in Cyprus, with a 10-piece music band, and the sound "engineer" (yeah, right) took down all the instruments except for viola, which was just playing off-beat accentuation. The whole tune (which is a syncopated rhythm traditional tune with intricate melody) went like hm-PAH-hm-PAH-hm-PAH-hm-PAH, changing from C to G and back, for 8 minutes.
In the days of 1/4" tape, an evil trick to do to radio presenters was to feed them back their voices in their headphones with a slight delay by recording them on tape and replaying from the playback head.
Great fun - instantly makes them sound drunk!
So - you're right - moral: NEVER p*ss off a sound guy / gal!
Nowadays you can get similar revenge a lot easier with digital technology. A colleague of mine once had a sports presenter really worried. Said presenter was reading a report, wearing headphones and holding a script which he was reading while holding the mic with the other hand. When he went on air, thus having all hands occupied, my friend mixed in the sound effect of a bee into the feed in his headphones. Cue presenter trying to read live, hold onto everything and sound normal, while swatting away at an imaginary bee with his script.
A good sound man makes the band sound good...Knows when to turn up the backer to cover up the scratchy fiddle or to camoflage the box player's bass. Definitely a full blown member of the band!
It's all very well to say yes, he is -but have you got him on your band's website too? I admit we haven't - must change that. Especially as he has taken up the mandolin to play on stage with us.
Since I'm a long-time studio guy, the translation of sound needs falls to me. I don't always enjoy that, much of the time I'd rather just have -one- job, playing. I don't really like doing live sound, but I've had to learn. It -is- very different from recording, tho they use a lot of the same hardware.
I have worked with bands when we had a sound guy, and we had a separate part of the contract, a "rider" with specifics on how that person was to be treated, and it meant that they had to be treated well. Altan's specification that their FOH (front of house) guy is In Charge is similar to what we had. Thanks to bobhimself for that URL, too!
In order to try and avoid trouble, I put together a PA, and the bandmates have learned (volunteered, I'm happy to say!) a lot about how to use it, what we need. That covers clubs and small events.
For festivals and gigs with installed PAs, we use a stage plot, not as elaborate as Altan's (thank god!!!). But we seek out the sound folks way ahead of our set time and make sure they're comfortable with it and know what we want. That has worked out very, very, well and some of the sound folks we have worked with have become great fans and promoters for us, too.
We would LOVE to have an audio person on the team, and have been searching for one, interviewing when we can, adn they will not exactly be a 'band member' contractually, but certainly will be socially. In truth and in contract, the audio tech usually has more real power at a gig than a band member...
You know the sound guy's part of the band, but you have to make sure the presenters also know. Make sure you tell them every time that there will be X people, that you'll need box lunches for X, drinks for X, accomodations for X [doncha wish!], etc., where X includes the sound person. All this in addition to your technical requirements.
Altan's technical rider (that's what that web page is) makes life much easier for the concert presenter, not to mention the band. The presenter's technical staff knows exactly what the band needs and where they need it. In my day job, I see a lot of these, for everything from solo recitalists to huge dance companies, with jazz bands and, yes, Celtic groups in between.
Performers don't always get everything they ask for -- some negotiation goes on -- but a tech rider like Altan's tells the presenter that they know sound and they know what they want. It also says, "for heaven's sake make sure your [the presenter's] technical people talk to ours [Altan's] way before the concert!"
This whole thread reads like one big wind-up. Of course the sound dude/dudette isn't really a member of the band.
I suppose your all going to try to justyfy why the roadie, the caterer and the fiddle players old lady who sells band t-shirts and CD's is also in the band?
This is ridiculous! The sound person "works" for the band.
In those interminable credits that roll at the end of modern films where should the sound person come?
The importance of the sound engineer is of course gauged by his/her absence (or incompetence).
Sound guy = Member of the band?
Sound guy = Member of the band?
I was just reading the post on the "worst trad concert ever heard," and someone brought up the point about the Chieftans sounding awful (!), because their mix was off.
As it so happens, my band played a festival this past weekend, and my husband, who is also our sound guy, noticed that we had been given just enough wrist bands for the "playing" members of the band.
He was a bit offended by this, and made the excellent point that without him, we'd be at the mercy of whatever volunteer sound talent this small festival would provide for us...a person who is not familiar with the band, has never heard us play, and who has no idea of what our mix should ideally be. Especially since we get a generous 15 minutes to set up *and* do a sound check.
Ergo...should the sound man/woman be considered a member of the band as important as, say, the lead singer/player? I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this subject.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by knockwool
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Of course he's part of the band.
As regards the "relative importance" of different members of the band (is he as important as the lead singer/player?") - don't go there, just back off and put the gun down.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
I think something's off if s/he isn't considered a member and given every perk.
Someone is important if the band wouldn't be the same without them.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Don't be silly. The sound guy is no more a member of the band than the drummer
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by ...
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
What an enlightened bunch you are! I begged, pleaded with a couple of bands I played in to please please give up a few bucks each so we could have our own sound person (although it is always a guy, isn't it?). But they remained unconvinced that it was a good investment, the morons.
Or maybe it was just that we couldn't find a guy with the requisite short stature and muttonchop sideburns.... ;>}
Anyway, yes, the sound guy is a member of the band, in my book.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by John Galt
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Whenever we have concert gigs we ALWAYS have a sound man. It takes all the pressure of the band to get the sound right so anyone who doubts the importance of a good sound man is deluding themselves.
We're lucky as our soundman is Dennis McDermott who was the principal dancer with Lord of the Dance in America and he always does two or three dances during the sets. So, in our case, definitely part of the band.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
My husband is our engineer and is every bit a part of the band. When we do festivals where an engineer is provided, my husband normally comes to advise - and has taken over the desk on a couple of occasions. Last weekend we were lucky that he was the paid engineer for the festival we were at - actually he is now working at more festivals than the band!!
As far as contributing - his equipment cost about 10 times more than the instruments in the band so the small amount he earns from gigs nowhere compensates for his investment. He just enjoys it - well most of the time anyway - unloading the van at 2 am in the pouring rain after a gig that hasn't gone as well as expected is never a delight!!
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
"Had" a drummer, Jim, "had". Had a full time sound man too.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by ...
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
How would you advertise for one?
"Must consider the love of the band payment enough, have own extensive equipment and transport, be available instantly anywhere, and be cheap to feed".
We couldn't find anyone like that so we do it ourselves...
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
We do it ourselves too.
This has the advantage that when you nip down onto the floor to hear everyone else, you aren't playing, so you can't get too precious about yourself, as doubtless some would otherwise.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Check out Altan’s point of view on having control of the sound engineering: http://www.tpoireland.com/altan/
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
sound PERSONS are essential, especially if you're unfortunate enough to have a drummer or electric bass in the band. even with just an acoustic duo or trio it's worth it to have someone you trust on the board. i bring my son whenever possible, he likes to make old dad sound good.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Dont
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
For the record: the best sound guy I ever knew was a gal! And she was definately considered a member of the band.
When you have a band that uses a lot of miked acoustic instuments, if the sound person is clueless, it doesn't matter how good anyone plays it will all sound like a jumble of noise.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by frchristo
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
I think it’s a crime – or at least a misdemeanor – the way some festival and concert organizers will leave the sound engineering to whoever volunteers for it. When you’re producing an *audio* product, why skimp on the *audio* presentation? Surely, it’s worth allocating some funds to get it done right.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
My band seems to think that our own sound guy is only a member when we've got a low-paying gig. If there's more money involved, he's not "invited" so there's more per individual! Since he's my husband, it's hard to aruge without seeming biased...and I guess the others figure that our guitar-playing "leader" who is losing his hearing is a fit substitute. Sigh.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Char B
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Best deal possible - our fiddler is our sound engineer, and a fully trained professional one. And we have a drummer, too.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Janek
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
And regarding volunteers for sound engineers, yes, it is a crime, and a really grave one. It does not apply only to the pure audio product, but also to any product where sound is involved. Most of these guys think that once you have a bass boost, everything is okay. Well, it isn't, in most cases. Sound management requires a lot of knowledge, including physics and other difficult words. And a lot of practice. And a lot of sensitivity. This is the person, who is responsible for the final outcome of the gig. He's dealing the cards and needs to be extremely careful, talented, swift and intelligent.
That's why the guy in charge of the overall performance is, in most cases, a part-time electrician.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Janek
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
But Janek--who, then, adjusts your fiddler's sound? It's physically impossible for a fiddler to hear only the sound system while he's playing--unless he's using a solid-body electric fiddle, or always plays the fiddle down by his waist, maybe.
And ideally, the sound engineer will be at the board during the performance to make tiny adjustments as needed. In a perfect world, anyway.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by John Galt
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Of course the Sound Man is not important!
Unless, of course, you actually want your band to sound good, then he is obviously an integral component & should be given the best seat on the bus!
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Every teacher knows that the most important people in a school are the secretary and the custodian (right, dmarie?), so, therefore, no matter how well the band plays, it's all for naught if the sound person is off.
Ptarmigan is right, once again (see above)... best seat, keep the drinks comin'...consider it an investment.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
"The sound person is the ambassador between the band and the venue", as I read somewhere once.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Tish
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Is it possible/thinkable when you apply for a gig at a festival that you include the soundboardist as a member of the band?
On the applications I've seen, it asks for number in band or maybe names.
Frequently, you get an additional sheet to diagram the mikes, directs, etc, but I am absolutely positive that nobody ever looks at them.
The thought of a vol on the board is scary, but I'm fairly sure they couldn't screw it up worse than some of the hired guns.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
I notice that those who have been or are in bands all seem to feel that yes, the sound tech is a member of the band. The voices of experience!
But then since my brother used to be a theatre sound and light tech, and sound engineered a bunch of concerts on the side, I suppose I'm prejudiced in favor of the voices of experience.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by sara g
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Mickray, yes, it's not ideal. But we don't earn so much as to have a sound engineer around, and our fiddler can at least set the controls so that you can hear what we play. It is, I would say, the best bargain deal we can get.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Janek
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
The best advice I was given was never p*ss off your sound engineer - he can help your performance - or he destroy it. An American friend of mine was taking part in a concert where one performer annoyed the engineer. When he came on he thought he sounded brilliant in the monitors - what he didn't know was that the engineer had switched most of the house sound off!
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Evil, bad or p*ssed off sound engineer stories could make an encyclopaedia on their own. I myself could throw in some interesting stories, with at least a dozen cases when the sound guy forgot to turn on the microphone of the solo singer, and realizing it later, started messing with the mixer, giving all sorts of funny effects. But the best story so far was when we were performing Polish folk dance in Cyprus, with a 10-piece music band, and the sound "engineer" (yeah, right) took down all the instruments except for viola, which was just playing off-beat accentuation. The whole tune (which is a syncopated rhythm traditional tune with intricate melody) went like hm-PAH-hm-PAH-hm-PAH-hm-PAH, changing from C to G and back, for 8 minutes.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Janek
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
In the days of 1/4" tape, an evil trick to do to radio presenters was to feed them back their voices in their headphones with a slight delay by recording them on tape and replaying from the playback head.
Great fun - instantly makes them sound drunk!
So - you're right - moral: NEVER p*ss off a sound guy / gal!
Nowadays you can get similar revenge a lot easier with digital technology. A colleague of mine once had a sports presenter really worried. Said presenter was reading a report, wearing headphones and holding a script which he was reading while holding the mic with the other hand. When he went on air, thus having all hands occupied, my friend mixed in the sound effect of a bee into the feed in his headphones. Cue presenter trying to read live, hold onto everything and sound normal, while swatting away at an imaginary bee with his script.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
A good sound man makes the band sound good...Knows when to turn up the backer to cover up the scratchy fiddle or to camoflage the box player's bass. Definitely a full blown member of the band!
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Backer
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
It's all very well to say yes, he is -but have you got him on your band's website too? I admit we haven't - must change that. Especially as he has taken up the mandolin to play on stage with us.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by kuec
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
Since I'm a long-time studio guy, the translation of sound needs falls to me. I don't always enjoy that, much of the time I'd rather just have -one- job, playing. I don't really like doing live sound, but I've had to learn. It -is- very different from recording, tho they use a lot of the same hardware.
I have worked with bands when we had a sound guy, and we had a separate part of the contract, a "rider" with specifics on how that person was to be treated, and it meant that they had to be treated well. Altan's specification that their FOH (front of house) guy is In Charge is similar to what we had. Thanks to bobhimself for that URL, too!
In order to try and avoid trouble, I put together a PA, and the bandmates have learned (volunteered, I'm happy to say!) a lot about how to use it, what we need. That covers clubs and small events.
For festivals and gigs with installed PAs, we use a stage plot, not as elaborate as Altan's (thank god!!!). But we seek out the sound folks way ahead of our set time and make sure they're comfortable with it and know what we want. That has worked out very, very, well and some of the sound folks we have worked with have become great fans and promoters for us, too.
We would LOVE to have an audio person on the team, and have been searching for one, interviewing when we can, adn they will not exactly be a 'band member' contractually, but certainly will be socially. In truth and in contract, the audio tech usually has more real power at a gig than a band member...
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
You know the sound guy's part of the band, but you have to make sure the presenters also know. Make sure you tell them every time that there will be X people, that you'll need box lunches for X, drinks for X, accomodations for X [doncha wish!], etc., where X includes the sound person. All this in addition to your technical requirements.
Altan's technical rider (that's what that web page is) makes life much easier for the concert presenter, not to mention the band. The presenter's technical staff knows exactly what the band needs and where they need it. In my day job, I see a lot of these, for everything from solo recitalists to huge dance companies, with jazz bands and, yes, Celtic groups in between.
Performers don't always get everything they ask for -- some negotiation goes on -- but a tech rider like Altan's tells the presenter that they know sound and they know what they want. It also says, "for heaven's sake make sure your [the presenter's] technical people talk to ours [Altan's] way before the concert!"
# Posted on October 13th 2005 by Tracie
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
This whole thread reads like one big wind-up. Of course the sound dude/dudette isn't really a member of the band.
I suppose your all going to try to justyfy why the roadie, the caterer and the fiddle players old lady who sells band t-shirts and CD's is also in the band?
This is ridiculous! The sound person "works" for the band.
# Posted on October 13th 2005 by Chef Paul
Re: Sound guy = Member of the band?
In those interminable credits that roll at the end of modern films where should the sound person come?
The importance of the sound engineer is of course gauged by his/her absence (or incompetence).
Trevor
# Posted on October 14th 2005 by Trevor Jennings