Someone said in a recent thread - "I would definitely say that the internet passed down the tradition to me." Now, is it just me, or is that not one of the scariest, & perhaps saddest, things you have ever read here?
No offence to the author of the above quote, or to Jeremy & his wonderful site, but be honest fellow session.org-ers, this place is, granted, a great source of info on recordings, a treasure trove of new tunes, a very useful source of info. on sessions & links to other great websites, oh & of course a great place to air your views, & slag off other peoples misguided ones, but could it really ever completely replace the experience of visiting a traditional musician & learning music from them.
Surely it could never give you any of those real live session experiences, or compare to the buzz we all get at a great concert.
Instead, I believe it is merely a very valuable 'support' to the 'real world' of ITM.
I know you can already take classes on a variety of instruments for ITM on the Net, & of course if you live in some remote corner of the globe, like Alaska, Tasmania or Ardrishaig ( ) it would be a very valuable way of at least getting a handle on the music, but I'd hate to think that there are actually folks out there who are learning to play ITM at home, from scratch, who have not yet & in fact who may never actually get a chance to physically share their music with others.
Of course, having read how some folks here advocate being rude to learners, they might already have been completely put off the idea of ever venturing anywhere near a session, so might in fact be glad they can't reach one.
I'm sure, like me, you have many treasured memories of yourseves in sessions with wonderful people & players which you would never swop for internet experiences.
Could ITM ever become just an internet experience?
For example, if pubs stopped paying for sessions & all UK pubs banned sessions, would british musicians resort to kitchen sessions or would they just sit in front of their computer screens & play with themselves?
Dick, I agree that the internet is a poor substitute for learning face to face from other players. But bear in mind that the person who wrote that is a teenager in a USA locale with limited options for learning the music right now.
This site can be a wonderful link to the session world for people who live way out in the non-Irish boonies, or in communities where no one else plays the tunes.
The young man in question has demonstrated a clear and patient passion for this music in the year plus I've been reading his posts (here and at Chiff and Fipple), so I suspect he'll join the meatspace session world as soon as he's able, with a better than fair start on the music and customs and no shortage of friends made online to connect with.
as opposed to people being introduced from sheetmusic and recordings? although i do think that the best way to learn is from people, the sheetmusic and recordings and internet are invaluable to someone who has nothing else.
although the internet has helped me keep going (for example, how to do cuts, taps, rolls, etc), all my important knowledge has come from people. like, how to properly get a solid tone on the flute, how to play in tune, how to play in time, how to get proper neagh, how to actually DO the rolls and not just the sequence behind it, etc. a lot of what i have learned is from people who never taught me what i learned. i learned to play reels by watching sean ryan (flutist, married to clodagh who plays fiddle concertina and i believe piano) tap his foot. i learned neagh by listening to (and being chided by) noel hill on the concertina and watching my grandma's fiddle bow.
but i never would have been able to learn my rolls from sean ryan and darach de bruin (sp) unless i had first read about them and tried before giving up online. i can go online and read about all these opinions and ideas and ask questions that i really cant have answered otherwise. now that i have learned a lot more from people, i rely less on the internet for information about ITM than i used to, but there was a couple years when it kept me going and kept me motivated.
as an end all to be all it is not very good, but it can help you get started or keep your motivation, or help you complain and help you grow. its many things to many people. and the internet will never be more than it is, just as writing can never be more than it is.
if nothing else the internet can help expand your knowledge to the point where you learn that you cant use it for learning everything you need to know. something that can teach you to move past it is something thats not all bad.
but again, i say this all because i have learned not to rely on it, but i do acknowledge its benefits.
Not scary or sad at all! Love need to begin someplace. Did the tradition not start from the heart?
Why does a "session" need to be the place to learn a tune? Why not just learn a tune from a teacher, book, CD, MP3 or friend? …or from the internet for that matter? Surely the tradition did not originate from “sessions.”
I guess you're just trying to get some talking going.
Not scary, and not sad, but I think it is actually good. I spent many years in a geographically isolated area, trying to learn from the notes, *and* from the one ITM CD that I had.
After the internet came along, I found out the right way to do a lot of things I was doing wrong. I found out about good resources that helped me play better. I found out that there were a lot of other people around who played. And I found out that some of those people didn't live very far from me, so that I *could* begin to learn more from real people.
Tasmania is hardly a remote corner of the world in the ITM sense. ITM is as big, if not bigger in Tasmania that in Victoria, Queensland or anywhere else in mainland Australia.
'Will':
"But bear in mind that the person who wrote that is a teenager in a USA locale with limited options for learning the music right now."
When I spoke about isolated enthusiasts, what I was trying to say was that, although they will certainly be gaining valuable information & encouragement from their Internet experiences, they shouldn't see those as the be all & end all of their ITM experience.
So, no matter how remote their location, they should be doing all in their power, to make sure that there is a human element to their ITM experience.
Some of us are spoiled in that regard & have the opportunity to enjoy a number of quality sessions each week.
Others settle for one good one each week, while some may have to be content with one a month.
However, I'm sure if any one of us suddenly found ourselves living in an isolated location, we would still make sure we had some regular contact with other musicians & even if that was reduced to a six monthly session with good ITM players, or an annual trip to a great ITM festival or to Ireland itself, we would make sure we didn't lose that contact.
In between times, the Internet would of course be a fantastic lifeline.
"The young man in question has demonstrated a clear and patient passion ............so I suspect he'll join the meatspace session world as soon as he's able"
Absolutely right Will, & I've no doubt we all congratulate him, & every one of us, well, most of us, would welcome him with open arms into any of our sessions. e.g. from my bio, he knows where to find our sessions up here on the north coast, any time he's over here.
Must say though, I find 'meatspace' a rather unfortunate term which seems to demonstrate little of the wonders that can be found in a session or at a festival.
It reminds me of the way they used to describe Disco here, as 'Cattle Markets', no romance, just business!
'daiv':
"the sheetmusic and recordings and internet are invaluable to someone who has nothing else."
Absolutely right! There was, of course, a time when isolated enthusiasts only had the sheet music to keep them going, & that's only what, only about a hundred years ago, which is not long when you consider how much ITM there was before that!
Can we even begin to imagine the joy, an isolated musician would have felt, when recordings first came along?
Now, the Internet offers, almost, a complete package, the only thing missing is the human element & with some sort of video cam. facility I'm sure it could get pretty close even to that, but it'll never be quite the same, obviously.
"all my important knowledge has come from people"
Yeah, but even forgetting about the knowledge angle, even just that warm, glowing, 'body of the kirk' feeling we get, being amongst other enthusiasts, I think is hard to quantify & hard to beat!
"and watching my grandma's fiddle bow."
Absolutely BRILLIANT memory - you lucky squirrel, how could you beat that!
When I lived in Dublin I used to call in to a weekly session where a mother & her kids were kinda the main driving force behind the session.
Some of the 'heads' on the scene then found it too tame, but I enjoyed it, even although the pace was, shall we say, a little more relaxed than the 'heavy' sessions.
But didn't Paul O'Shaughnessy do well & I'm sure he will always treasure those memories of family sessions.
"something that can teach you to move past it is something thats not all bad."
Wow, that's a very profound statement for the 'Mustard Page' isn't it daiv!
"but i do acknowledge its benefits."
& so say all of us!
'Pete D':
"I guess you're just trying to get some talking going."
Sussed again! But isn't it an interesting topic?
'fluti31415'
"Not scary, and not sad"
No, you missed the point, I didn't say the Internet was scary & sad, what I was getting at was the idea that someone might come to ITM & rely on the Internet for their total ITM experience without ever wishing to meet up with other living musicians. To me that idea is Scary & Sad.
'black'
"I would like to be able to play with pipers but they are as scarce as hen's teeth here or are they? I am a novice"
I'd say 'black' you have come to the right place.
Start working through the resources here, check out all the info here, on the sessions in your area.
Just come right out & start a discussion of your own on Pipers & sessions & you might be surprised who turns up, in your neck of the woods.
I've even heard it said that 'some' pipers are quite nice people, but I remain to be convinced about that?
( Before WW4 starts - Only joing guys!)
'kjay'
Got-ya! Works like a charm, every time!
That 'small island' mentality is easily upset, isn't it?
Yeah, an Ian English from Canberra, dropped into one of our sessions this week & he was telling us that Tasmania was a good place for ITM so I just thought I'd bait the line & see who was out there! No harm intended.
Ptarmo ya ould bollox. You've started this thread precisely to get things going. There I was at a session last night and if I'd mentioned this site people would have looked at me strangely. The very fact that you navel-gazingly put this thread up for the world to see shows that the internet must have some impact on how we cognise the music. Between the lines my reading is that you need to take a break from this site. No hard feelings, but why don't you go for a big long walk down the Antrim Glens? Just chill.
Pray tell, what is it about the concept of a 'discussion' on a discussion page, that you can't get your head round?
"people .. looked at me strangely."
Hey, you still not got used to that, yet, after all these years?
"navel-gazingly"
- Not me mate, I ain't seen that little sucker for years now!
"shows that the internet must have some impact on how we cognise the music"
Never doubted it for one minute.
Could it be that that's why I wrote: "a great source of info on recordings, a treasure trove of new tunes, a very useful source of info. on sessions & links to other great websites, oh & of course a great place to air your views"?
"go for a big long walk down the Antrim Glens?
What, in October?
Not likely, the wind's that strong today it'd blow off all my fake tan & mascara!
Too chilly!
Guess you must be reading between the wrong lines - try the other ones.
I agree it is kind of sad and I am the author of the post in question. I have been to a couple sessions here and there most of which I have stumbled across while out of town and such I also try to attend the yearly Chiff and Fipple gatherings for the North East. If there were other players around here than I would be happy to play with them but I am not that lucky. I am always jealous of people who had the opportunity to learn face to face with other players, but some seem to take it for granted and not realize that it is not at all easy for some people to do. there is not one session within an hour from me or one that would fit into my already very busy schedule. When I have the chance to go to a session I usually jump at it.
ah geez, Avery. Don't you worry - pretty soon you'll graduate and find yourself with a whole lot of freedom to do whatever you please - and with all the time and effort you've put into this music, you may just find that what pleases you is to travel around the states and maybe the world, to sessions, workshops, festivals and concerts.
And the contacts you've made on this site and C&F, will prove invaluable in getting you straight into the thick of things. And chances are you'll never grow out of it, and in this emphemeral ADD world we live in, something that constant is pure diamond.
What's more, having been so isolated to begin with, you'll appreciate it that much more when it happens. Trust me on dis, cos I know
Hey 122, don't feel 'jealous', cause from what Q says, all you really need to feel, is - impatient! You are soon going to have the whole world at your feet, by the sound of things - good luck.
Jealousy, after all is a negative emotion, which could leave you perhaps feeling bitter & twisted & who knows, things could even get 'so bad' that you could end up being rude to folk all the time & calling them stuff like "ya ould bollox", "You're bonkers" or "stark ravin bonkers", & I'm sure you wouldn't wish to end up like that?
Q isn't what you describe, a bit like the transition from that cheap & nasty instrument many of us learn on, to the pure joy when we first get our hands on a quality instrument.
I'm sure most of us here, have been there.
I went from a very basic Japanese Banjo to a 1920's quality brass instrument, from a Chinese fiddle to a James Beatley hand made violin, & from a leaky old ivory buttoned Lachenal ('sook 'n blaw' - of course!) to a Jeffries Concertina.
Truth be told 122, a lot of us here probably actually envy you, cause boy oh boy are you going to have some fun when you start to travel!
Hey, no apology necessary old bean! After all, if I remember correctly, wasn't it me what first insinuated, or hinted that you may be an ar*ehole first, so, fairs fair, I reckon I deserve everything you throw at me!
So apology accepted, & returned X10 - let peace reign between our two houses!
Just as well I'm wearing my trusty hard hat though!
hmmnn ... speaking as a person on the fringes who has not yet made it to Ireland - It was hard enough getting over here back in 1840, dammit --
When this thread popped up, I was sitting around feeling sad that even if I turn into a decent player by my own standards at least, I would never have "regional" fiddle accent unless, like middlewestern US English, there's some weird amalgam emerging aorund the world where all the ITM wannbe s reside.
I've been listing hard to ITM for twentyfive years now, getting out to see enough high level performers in whatever backwater USA town I'm near enough to to turn out for, and then, sorting out their commercial impulses from their Trad habits when they show up, is quite a challenge. (e.g. we've had Martin Hayes here and Teada in the last year)
I wish I could be reincarnated to a country dance on the road on the cliffs as in a photo I saw recently -- sadly, however, I'd not have been playing much as I'd as likely have been a candidate for the Magdalene laundries. There's all sorts of luck I suppose.
If I hadn't been lucky enough to hear LPs like Ceol an Clare and Star above the Garden and a copy of "Oneill's" who knows what would have happened to me. It just been the tunes and the desire to play the ones that get me that have sustained me when there was no community.
The internet has been a collosal boon in all the ways described in this thread, plus access to Celtic distributers of CDs that would never make it here. Still, there must be a way for some enterprising ITM soul to harness that Internet to bring the unwashed to sessions or sessions to the them --
Hey Dick, there's a bit of a South Westerly blowing just now - you been having another fry-up - fresh haddock done in breadcrumbs methinks.....?
Re the internet - yes, a great support for isolated players of Irish traditional music. For some people, due to geographical & indeed monetary isolation (if they're lucky enough to get internet access), it may be all they can get bar the odd cd.
Personally, I wouldn't use the words "scary & sad" - I'd rather say it's a crying shame for anyone's personal musical development to be restricted due to isolation - however, thanks should be extended to people like Jeremy for facilitating contact with other musicians and all the resources on this website.
Well said Ron P, I'm sure we all 2nd that. Three cheers for Jeremy: Hip Hip ..........................
By the way, I think with 'Sad' & 'Crying Shame' we're pretty much on the same wavelength there.
Sadly, no "fresh haddock done in breadcrumbs" for me, as I'm trying to loose a few stone & get back to my normal, lean & hungry look of around - 25 stone!
I wonder who is the most isolated org-er here? Time for a new thread me-thinks!
I couldn't summon the enthusiasm to read all the intelligent and erudite discussion in this thread - but my reaction to the first question in the first paragraph of the first post is:
"Not as sad as never even having found the tradition at all."
We had an outstanding fiddler sit in at our session last night. How did he find us? He learned from my bio that we live in the same general area, and emailed me.
There's nothing sad or evil about technology itself, it's all about how you use it.
Well 'showadd' & 'mickray', not surprisingly you are both way off beam with your replies, & missing the point of all this I fear!
But then that's hardly surprising since you 'showadd', say you couldn't even be bothered reading more than the first paragraph, & I assume from your reply mick that you just read showadd's reply?
The main question of the thread was actually:
"Could ITM ever become just an internet experience?"
Which you would have twigged if you had actually read any of the other replies!
So come on guys, we are all agreed here, I think, in that the internet in general & thesession.org in particular, is the best thing since sliced bread & an invaluable source of info. & even some entertainment (?), especially for very isolated ITM enthusiasts, in all senses of the word 'isolated'!
But how many of us could actually do without the human element of ITM altogether?
Hi Avery, there's an old joke where a guy gets stopped in Belfast by someone in a hood and asked his religion. He's scared, doesn't know which one to guess so he doesn't get a kicking. He has an inspiration - 'I'm Jewish!!' 'Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?' is the response....
... moving on swiftly as nobody laughs, I wondered if you played any Klezmer. I'm trying to learn a few tunes from Kroke, & the Klezmatics, but they play so fast & it's such tricky music!
Plenty of time for sessions in future so don't worry about that. It's not a sprint but a marathon. Also, the euphoria wears off... you have to keep chasing the next high (a bigger better instrument, a bigger better tune, a bigger better session) so you're never satisfied.
BTW I made a reply to the thread which disappeared when I pressed post, but this was probably a good thing because I didn't answer the literal question. But if only literal answers are allowed, then wouldn't there be only one response, 'No', end of conversation?
As for people doing without the human element, sometimes you wonder if they ever did with it.
"so you're never satisfied." TSK TSK S1obhan - Well isn't that attitude just typical of the fairer sex?
Sorry S1obhan, just funnin'!
Hey, I'd say, never worry about being literal here. The more, 'off the wall' responses a thread gets, the more interesting it usually gets, don't you find?
As for your 'bigger/better' point - ain't that just the truth.
For example, when did you ever come across a Fiddle player who was 100% satisfied with his fiddle.
Aren't they always trying out the other guys & complaining about their own fiddle's weaknesses.
I did in fact read (at least most of) the thread, and that's probably why I had forgotten the original question by the time I posted my comment.
But I'm still not that far off--the cyber experience can lead to real-world experiences you might have missed, otherwise. So what if somebody has only experienced ITM online--as yet. If they're not dead yet, they might still find a good session.
I think you have been reading too much sci-fi, maybe. (What if computers and synthesizers perfected ITM, and then decided to kill all of us imperfect humans? I smell a Hollywood blockbuster....) ;>}
Come on Ptarmigan you grumpy old old old old old old old sod, I told you that what I was saying was the answer to the question you asked in the first paragraph you wrote, and that I wasn't commenting on the rest of the discussion. If you don't want the question answered, you shouldn't ask it.
Hiya Avery - I've been trying to learn that tune - also this one... http://www.mandolincafe.com/pdf/triske.pdf
for YEARS... give it a go, because if we ever meet up in a 'real life' session we could try & play it together, without looking like Bothy Band/Lunasa gimps!! It is the *best* tune - seriously.
Oh, deary, deary me Showad, did you roll out of bed on the wrong side?
Hey, surely it's 'MY' thread, so I have a right to pretend to be grumpy if I want to, so na na ne na na!
Fact is, that first question was just a rhetorical one.
A hook if you like?
Clever eh?
Just like those last too.
It was just to set the scene, with the real one coming later.
Anyway Showad, glad you dropped by, even if it was just to pour scorne on my luvvly likkle fread!
By the way, it sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle something when you go on & on & on & on & on about my age. I see from your bio dat you aint no spring chicken yersel!
Mind you, with all this dreaded avian flu heading our way, I guess even the chickens don't want to be chickens these days. They'll all be putting in for transfers to become small badgers, or domestic cats...................................... think it's time for my first coffee......................................
Scary & Sad!
Scary & Sad!
Someone said in a recent thread - "I would definitely say that the internet passed down the tradition to me." Now, is it just me, or is that not one of the scariest, & perhaps saddest, things you have ever read here?
No offence to the author of the above quote, or to Jeremy & his wonderful site, but be honest fellow session.org-ers, this place is, granted, a great source of info on recordings, a treasure trove of new tunes, a very useful source of info. on sessions & links to other great websites, oh & of course a great place to air your views, & slag off other peoples misguided ones, but could it really ever completely replace the experience of visiting a traditional musician & learning music from them.
Surely it could never give you any of those real live session experiences, or compare to the buzz we all get at a great concert.
Instead, I believe it is merely a very valuable 'support' to the 'real world' of ITM.
I know you can already take classes on a variety of instruments for ITM on the Net, & of course if you live in some remote corner of the globe, like Alaska, Tasmania or Ardrishaig (
) it would be a very valuable way of at least getting a handle on the music, but I'd hate to think that there are actually folks out there who are learning to play ITM at home, from scratch, who have not yet & in fact who may never actually get a chance to physically share their music with others.
Of course, having read how some folks here advocate being rude to learners, they might already have been completely put off the idea of ever venturing anywhere near a session, so might in fact be glad they can't reach one.
I'm sure, like me, you have many treasured memories of yourseves in sessions with wonderful people & players which you would never swop for internet experiences.
Could ITM ever become just an internet experience?
For example, if pubs stopped paying for sessions & all UK pubs banned sessions, would british musicians resort to kitchen sessions or would they just sit in front of their computer screens & play with themselves?
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
Dick, I agree that the internet is a poor substitute for learning face to face from other players. But bear in mind that the person who wrote that is a teenager in a USA locale with limited options for learning the music right now.
This site can be a wonderful link to the session world for people who live way out in the non-Irish boonies, or in communities where no one else plays the tunes.
The young man in question has demonstrated a clear and patient passion for this music in the year plus I've been reading his posts (here and at Chiff and Fipple), so I suspect he'll join the meatspace session world as soon as he's able, with a better than fair start on the music and customs and no shortage of friends made online to connect with.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Scary & Sad!
as opposed to people being introduced from sheetmusic and recordings? although i do think that the best way to learn is from people, the sheetmusic and recordings and internet are invaluable to someone who has nothing else.
although the internet has helped me keep going (for example, how to do cuts, taps, rolls, etc), all my important knowledge has come from people. like, how to properly get a solid tone on the flute, how to play in tune, how to play in time, how to get proper neagh, how to actually DO the rolls and not just the sequence behind it, etc. a lot of what i have learned is from people who never taught me what i learned. i learned to play reels by watching sean ryan (flutist, married to clodagh who plays fiddle concertina and i believe piano) tap his foot. i learned neagh by listening to (and being chided by) noel hill on the concertina and watching my grandma's fiddle bow.
but i never would have been able to learn my rolls from sean ryan and darach de bruin (sp) unless i had first read about them and tried before giving up online. i can go online and read about all these opinions and ideas and ask questions that i really cant have answered otherwise. now that i have learned a lot more from people, i rely less on the internet for information about ITM than i used to, but there was a couple years when it kept me going and kept me motivated.
as an end all to be all it is not very good, but it can help you get started or keep your motivation, or help you complain and help you grow. its many things to many people. and the internet will never be more than it is, just as writing can never be more than it is.
if nothing else the internet can help expand your knowledge to the point where you learn that you cant use it for learning everything you need to know. something that can teach you to move past it is something thats not all bad.
but again, i say this all because i have learned not to rely on it, but i do acknowledge its benefits.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by daiv
Re: Scary & Sad!
Not scary or sad at all! Love need to begin someplace. Did the tradition not start from the heart?
Why does a "session" need to be the place to learn a tune? Why not just learn a tune from a teacher, book, CD, MP3 or friend? …or from the internet for that matter? Surely the tradition did not originate from “sessions.”
I guess you're just trying to get some talking going.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Pete D
Re: Coming out on a limb -- not Scary or Sad!
Not scary, and not sad, but I think it is actually good. I spent many years in a geographically isolated area, trying to learn from the notes, *and* from the one ITM CD that I had.
After the internet came along, I found out the right way to do a lot of things I was doing wrong. I found out about good resources that helped me play better. I found out that there were a lot of other people around who played. And I found out that some of those people didn't live very far from me, so that I *could* begin to learn more from real people.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by fluti31415
Uilleann pipers in sydney?
I would like to be able to play with pipers but they are as scarce as hen's teeth here or are they? I am a novice
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by black
Re: Scary & Sad!
Tasmania is hardly a remote corner of the world in the ITM sense. ITM is as big, if not bigger in Tasmania that in Victoria, Queensland or anywhere else in mainland Australia.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Scary & Sad!
'Will':
"But bear in mind that the person who wrote that is a teenager in a USA locale with limited options for learning the music right now."
When I spoke about isolated enthusiasts, what I was trying to say was that, although they will certainly be gaining valuable information & encouragement from their Internet experiences, they shouldn't see those as the be all & end all of their ITM experience.
So, no matter how remote their location, they should be doing all in their power, to make sure that there is a human element to their ITM experience.
Some of us are spoiled in that regard & have the opportunity to enjoy a number of quality sessions each week.
Others settle for one good one each week, while some may have to be content with one a month.
However, I'm sure if any one of us suddenly found ourselves living in an isolated location, we would still make sure we had some regular contact with other musicians & even if that was reduced to a six monthly session with good ITM players, or an annual trip to a great ITM festival or to Ireland itself, we would make sure we didn't lose that contact.
In between times, the Internet would of course be a fantastic lifeline.
"The young man in question has demonstrated a clear and patient passion ............so I suspect he'll join the meatspace session world as soon as he's able"
Absolutely right Will, & I've no doubt we all congratulate him, & every one of us, well, most of us, would welcome him with open arms into any of our sessions. e.g. from my bio, he knows where to find our sessions up here on the north coast, any time he's over here.
Must say though, I find 'meatspace' a rather unfortunate term which seems to demonstrate little of the wonders that can be found in a session or at a festival.
It reminds me of the way they used to describe Disco here, as 'Cattle Markets', no romance, just business!
'daiv':
"the sheetmusic and recordings and internet are invaluable to someone who has nothing else."
Absolutely right! There was, of course, a time when isolated enthusiasts only had the sheet music to keep them going, & that's only what, only about a hundred years ago, which is not long when you consider how much ITM there was before that!
Can we even begin to imagine the joy, an isolated musician would have felt, when recordings first came along?
Now, the Internet offers, almost, a complete package, the only thing missing is the human element & with some sort of video cam. facility I'm sure it could get pretty close even to that, but it'll never be quite the same, obviously.
"all my important knowledge has come from people"
Yeah, but even forgetting about the knowledge angle, even just that warm, glowing, 'body of the kirk' feeling we get, being amongst other enthusiasts, I think is hard to quantify & hard to beat!
"and watching my grandma's fiddle bow."
Absolutely BRILLIANT memory - you lucky squirrel, how could you beat that!
When I lived in Dublin I used to call in to a weekly session where a mother & her kids were kinda the main driving force behind the session.
Some of the 'heads' on the scene then found it too tame, but I enjoyed it, even although the pace was, shall we say, a little more relaxed than the 'heavy' sessions.
But didn't Paul O'Shaughnessy do well & I'm sure he will always treasure those memories of family sessions.
"something that can teach you to move past it is something thats not all bad."
Wow, that's a very profound statement for the 'Mustard Page' isn't it daiv!
"but i do acknowledge its benefits."
& so say all of us!
'Pete D':
"I guess you're just trying to get some talking going."
Sussed again! But isn't it an interesting topic?
'fluti31415'
"Not scary, and not sad"
No, you missed the point, I didn't say the Internet was scary & sad, what I was getting at was the idea that someone might come to ITM & rely on the Internet for their total ITM experience without ever wishing to meet up with other living musicians. To me that idea is Scary & Sad.
'black'
"I would like to be able to play with pipers but they are as scarce as hen's teeth here or are they? I am a novice"
I'd say 'black' you have come to the right place.
Start working through the resources here, check out all the info here, on the sessions in your area.
Just come right out & start a discussion of your own on Pipers & sessions & you might be surprised who turns up, in your neck of the woods.
I've even heard it said that 'some' pipers are quite nice people, but I remain to be convinced about that?
( Before WW4 starts - Only joing guys!)
'kjay'
Got-ya! Works like a charm, every time!
That 'small island' mentality is easily upset, isn't it?
Yeah, an Ian English from Canberra, dropped into one of our sessions this week & he was telling us that Tasmania was a good place for ITM so I just thought I'd bait the line & see who was out there! No harm intended.
Just waiting now to hear from Alaska?
- & Ron P will, no doubt, be along later
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Rare as.............
Re: black. Has anyone ever spotted 'Hen's Teeeth' on eBay?
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
Ptarmo ya ould bollox. You've started this thread precisely to get things going. There I was at a session last night and if I'd mentioned this site people would have looked at me strangely. The very fact that you navel-gazingly put this thread up for the world to see shows that the internet must have some impact on how we cognise the music. Between the lines my reading is that you need to take a break from this site. No hard feelings, but why don't you go for a big long walk down the Antrim Glens? Just chill.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Scary & Sad!
Good idea Indie - Just chill.
Pray tell, what is it about the concept of a 'discussion' on a discussion page, that you can't get your head round?
"people .. looked at me strangely."
Hey, you still not got used to that, yet, after all these years?
"navel-gazingly"
- Not me mate, I ain't seen that little sucker for years now!
"shows that the internet must have some impact on how we cognise the music"
Never doubted it for one minute.
Could it be that that's why I wrote: "a great source of info on recordings, a treasure trove of new tunes, a very useful source of info. on sessions & links to other great websites, oh & of course a great place to air your views"?
"go for a big long walk down the Antrim Glens?
What, in October?
Not likely, the wind's that strong today it'd blow off all my fake tan & mascara!
Too chilly!
Guess you must be reading between the wrong lines - try the other ones.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
sure boss. if you say so.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Scary & Sad!
You're bonkers. You do know that don't you? Flippin' hoo hah hee hoh stark ravin bonkers.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Scary & Sad!
I agree it is kind of sad and I am the author of the post in question. I have been to a couple sessions here and there most of which I have stumbled across while out of town and such I also try to attend the yearly Chiff and Fipple gatherings for the North East. If there were other players around here than I would be happy to play with them but I am not that lucky. I am always jealous of people who had the opportunity to learn face to face with other players, but some seem to take it for granted and not realize that it is not at all easy for some people to do. there is not one session within an hour from me or one that would fit into my already very busy schedule. When I have the chance to go to a session I usually jump at it.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Goblicious
Re: Scary & Sad!
ah geez, Avery. Don't you worry - pretty soon you'll graduate and find yourself with a whole lot of freedom to do whatever you please - and with all the time and effort you've put into this music, you may just find that what pleases you is to travel around the states and maybe the world, to sessions, workshops, festivals and concerts.
And the contacts you've made on this site and C&F, will prove invaluable in getting you straight into the thick of things. And chances are you'll never grow out of it, and in this emphemeral ADD world we live in, something that constant is pure diamond.
What's more, having been so isolated to begin with, you'll appreciate it that much more when it happens. Trust me on dis, cos I know
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Q
Re: Scary & Sad!
Hey 122, don't feel 'jealous', cause from what Q says, all you really need to feel, is - impatient! You are soon going to have the whole world at your feet, by the sound of things - good luck.
Jealousy, after all is a negative emotion, which could leave you perhaps feeling bitter & twisted & who knows, things could even get 'so bad' that you could end up being rude to folk all the time & calling them stuff like "ya ould bollox", "You're bonkers" or "stark ravin bonkers", & I'm sure you wouldn't wish to end up like that?
Q isn't what you describe, a bit like the transition from that cheap & nasty instrument many of us learn on, to the pure joy when we first get our hands on a quality instrument.
I'm sure most of us here, have been there.
I went from a very basic Japanese Banjo to a 1920's quality brass instrument, from a Chinese fiddle to a James Beatley hand made violin, & from a leaky old ivory buttoned Lachenal ('sook 'n blaw' - of course!) to a Jeffries Concertina.
Truth be told 122, a lot of us here probably actually envy you, cause boy oh boy are you going to have some fun when you start to travel!
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
You're right Ptarmie. Sorry about that.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Scary & Sad!
Hey, no apology necessary old bean! After all, if I remember correctly, wasn't it me what first insinuated, or hinted that you may be an ar*ehole first, so, fairs fair, I reckon I deserve everything you throw at me!
So apology accepted, & returned X10 - let peace reign between our two houses!
Just as well I'm wearing my trusty hard hat though!
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
That's decent of you. But I feel I was out of order, so the apology still stands.
What were we talking about anyway??....
(trying to change the subject.....)
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Scary & Sad!
Or we could just argue now about who is more apologetic?
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
no we won't!
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Scary & Sad!
hmmnn ... speaking as a person on the fringes who has not yet made it to Ireland - It was hard enough getting over here back in 1840, dammit --
When this thread popped up, I was sitting around feeling sad that even if I turn into a decent player by my own standards at least, I would never have "regional" fiddle accent unless, like middlewestern US English, there's some weird amalgam emerging aorund the world where all the ITM wannbe s reside.
I've been listing hard to ITM for twentyfive years now, getting out to see enough high level performers in whatever backwater USA town I'm near enough to to turn out for, and then, sorting out their commercial impulses from their Trad habits when they show up, is quite a challenge. (e.g. we've had Martin Hayes here and Teada in the last year)
I wish I could be reincarnated to a country dance on the road on the cliffs as in a photo I saw recently -- sadly, however, I'd not have been playing much as I'd as likely have been a candidate for the Magdalene laundries. There's all sorts of luck I suppose.
If I hadn't been lucky enough to hear LPs like Ceol an Clare and Star above the Garden and a copy of "Oneill's" who knows what would have happened to me. It just been the tunes and the desire to play the ones that get me that have sustained me when there was no community.
The internet has been a collosal boon in all the ways described in this thread, plus access to Celtic distributers of CDs that would never make it here. Still, there must be a way for some enterprising ITM soul to harness that Internet to bring the unwashed to sessions or sessions to the them --
I've got it! thesession.org! (Thanks, Jeremy.)
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by ratbiscuit
Re: Scary & Sad!
Hey Dick, there's a bit of a South Westerly blowing just now - you been having another fry-up - fresh haddock done in breadcrumbs methinks.....?
Re the internet - yes, a great support for isolated players of Irish traditional music. For some people, due to geographical & indeed monetary isolation (if they're lucky enough to get internet access), it may be all they can get bar the odd cd.
Personally, I wouldn't use the words "scary & sad" - I'd rather say it's a crying shame for anyone's personal musical development to be restricted due to isolation - however, thanks should be extended to people like Jeremy for facilitating contact with other musicians and all the resources on this website.
# Posted on October 9th 2005 by Ron P
Re: Scary & Sad!
Well said Ron P, I'm sure we all 2nd that. Three cheers for Jeremy: Hip Hip ..........................
By the way, I think with 'Sad' & 'Crying Shame' we're pretty much on the same wavelength there.
Sadly, no "fresh haddock done in breadcrumbs" for me, as I'm trying to loose a few stone & get back to my normal, lean & hungry look of around - 25 stone!
I wonder who is the most isolated org-er here? Time for a new thread me-thinks!
# Posted on October 10th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
I couldn't summon the enthusiasm to read all the intelligent and erudite discussion in this thread - but my reaction to the first question in the first paragraph of the first post is:
"Not as sad as never even having found the tradition at all."
# Posted on October 10th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Scary & Sad!
I'm with showaddy on that.
We had an outstanding fiddler sit in at our session last night. How did he find us? He learned from my bio that we live in the same general area, and emailed me.
There's nothing sad or evil about technology itself, it's all about how you use it.
# Posted on October 10th 2005 by mickray
Re: Scary & Sad!
ratbag99: "I've been LISTING hard to ITM for 25 years now......"
Not to worry. Many of us are similarly unbalanced.
# Posted on October 10th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: Scary & Sad!
Well 'showadd' & 'mickray', not surprisingly you are both way off beam with your replies, & missing the point of all this I fear!
But then that's hardly surprising since you 'showadd', say you couldn't even be bothered reading more than the first paragraph, & I assume from your reply mick that you just read showadd's reply?
The main question of the thread was actually:
"Could ITM ever become just an internet experience?"
Which you would have twigged if you had actually read any of the other replies!
So come on guys, we are all agreed here, I think, in that the internet in general & thesession.org in particular, is the best thing since sliced bread & an invaluable source of info. & even some entertainment (?), especially for very isolated ITM enthusiasts, in all senses of the word 'isolated'!
But how many of us could actually do without the human element of ITM altogether?
# Posted on October 10th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
So when I can get out to travel I will feel like I did when I got my first "real" Flute. That was a great feeling...
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Goblicious
Re: Scary & Sad!
Another thing to mention is I do not come from an Irish back ground I am in fact Jewish.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Goblicious
Re: Scary & Sad!
Hi Avery, there's an old joke where a guy gets stopped in Belfast by someone in a hood and asked his religion. He's scared, doesn't know which one to guess so he doesn't get a kicking. He has an inspiration - 'I'm Jewish!!' 'Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?' is the response....
... moving on swiftly as nobody laughs, I wondered if you played any Klezmer. I'm trying to learn a few tunes from Kroke, & the Klezmatics, but they play so fast & it's such tricky music!
Plenty of time for sessions in future so don't worry about that. It's not a sprint but a marathon. Also, the euphoria wears off... you have to keep chasing the next high (a bigger better instrument, a bigger better tune, a bigger better session) so you're never satisfied.
BTW I made a reply to the thread which disappeared when I pressed post, but this was probably a good thing because I didn't answer the literal question. But if only literal answers are allowed, then wouldn't there be only one response, 'No', end of conversation?
As for people doing without the human element, sometimes you wonder if they ever did with it.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by S1obhan
Re: Scary & Sad!
"so you're never satisfied." TSK TSK S1obhan - Well isn't that attitude just typical of the fairer sex?
Sorry S1obhan, just funnin'!
Hey, I'd say, never worry about being literal here. The more, 'off the wall' responses a thread gets, the more interesting it usually gets, don't you find?
As for your 'bigger/better' point - ain't that just the truth.
For example, when did you ever come across a Fiddle player who was 100% satisfied with his fiddle.
Aren't they always trying out the other guys & complaining about their own fiddle's weaknesses.
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
Dear Auld Grouse,
I did in fact read (at least most of) the thread, and that's probably why I had forgotten the original question by the time I posted my comment.
But I'm still not that far off--the cyber experience can lead to real-world experiences you might have missed, otherwise. So what if somebody has only experienced ITM online--as yet. If they're not dead yet, they might still find a good session.
I think you have been reading too much sci-fi, maybe. (What if computers and synthesizers perfected ITM, and then decided to kill all of us imperfect humans? I smell a Hollywood blockbuster....) ;>}
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by mickray
Re: Scary & Sad!
Yeah Mick, these threads often get like that, don't they. In fact I'm just amazed we're still somewhere near the original topic by this late stage!
Fair comment, but I haven't read a book in years, too busy deedlin I guess! I do, I must confess though, enjoy the films!
It's a wonderful medium, granted, & I wouldn't be without it now, but I wouldn't relish the prospect of it being my only ITM experience from now on!
I smell something too Mick, but I just can't seem to put my finger on it,....... I'm off to look behind the fridge........................
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Scary & Sad!
Come on Ptarmigan you grumpy old old old old old old old sod, I told you that what I was saying was the answer to the question you asked in the first paragraph you wrote, and that I wasn't commenting on the rest of the discussion. If you don't want the question answered, you shouldn't ask it.
(grump grump chunner chunner bah humbug).
# Posted on October 11th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Scary & Sad!
S1obhan to answer your question the only Klezmer tune I can play is the one that Kevin Burke and Lunasa do. I knew I would never be satisfied.
# Posted on October 12th 2005 by Goblicious
Re: Scary & Sad!
Hiya Avery - I've been trying to learn that tune - also this one...
http://www.mandolincafe.com/pdf/triske.pdf
for YEARS... give it a go, because if we ever meet up in a 'real life' session we could try & play it together, without looking like Bothy Band/Lunasa gimps!! It is the *best* tune - seriously.
As for satisfaction - it is overrated, obviously
Siobhan xx
# Posted on October 16th 2005 by S1obhan
Re: Scary & Sad!
Oh, deary, deary me Showad, did you roll out of bed on the wrong side?
Hey, surely it's 'MY' thread, so I have a right to pretend to be grumpy if I want to, so na na ne na na!
Fact is, that first question was just a rhetorical one.
A hook if you like?
Clever eh?
Just like those last too.
It was just to set the scene, with the real one coming later.
Anyway Showad, glad you dropped by, even if it was just to pour scorne on my luvvly likkle fread!
By the way, it sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle something when you go on & on & on & on & on about my age. I see from your bio dat you aint no spring chicken yersel!
Mind you, with all this dreaded avian flu heading our way, I guess even the chickens don't want to be chickens these days. They'll all be putting in for transfers to become small badgers, or domestic cats...................................... think it's time for my first coffee......................................
# Posted on October 16th 2005 by Ptarmigan