i'm looking for notes for this reel, which is played in cape breton. i think it may have been written by niel gow. pretty much all the abc/sheet music i can find on the web is for the carolan tune which is, shall we say, somewhat different
(yeah, i know it's not an irish tune, but y'all have never failed me yet!)
This is in RSCDS Book 2 (Royal Scottish Country Dance Society) available from www.rscds.org. It's listed as being from Gow's Repository. RSCDS books are fairly inexpensive. I'll see if I can put an abc up soon -
Actually, there are a couple of abc's for this - in Gm and Em - in The Fiddler's Companion - there's a link from this site in the Tune Collections links. Type in Princess Royal, and then it's down a ways in the infor returned, but it's there. They are straight forward, but you could vary them to your heart's content. Might be faster than waiting on the abc's from me -
I know "The Princess Royal" as a Carolan tune, so I was interested to see if this is the same tune. It is. Now that cj has posted the ABC, I can tell that it is definitely Carolan's melody, although with some variations from the version in Donal O'Sullivan's book (see below for reference).
From Ceolas: The Fiddler’s Companion website , under the entry for “ARETHUSA, THE. AKA and see "The Princess Royal."”:
“Irish writers have claimed that Turlough O'Carolan (1670-1738) composed the tune as "The Princess Royal," in honor of a daughter of Macdermott Roe. Kidson (Groves), however, maintains it was an English country dance from the early 18th century, dedicated to Anne, daughter of George II, who married the Prince of Orange in 1734.”
Personally, I trust the scholarship of Donal O’Sullivan [Carolan: The Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper, Ossian Publications, Ltd., 2001 (new edition)], who attributes the authorship of tune #87, “Miss MacDermott or The Princess Royal,” to Turlough O’Carolan. However, the exact identity of the Miss MacDermott is questioned. The most likely family is that of The MacDermott of Coolavin (“the representative of the old princes of Coolavin”, hence “The Princess Royal”), but there are no records of a daughter born in this family during Carolan’s lifetime. It appears that the daughters were left unmentioned in the official family pedrigree from that time. Another possibility, though not fitting the “royal” connection, is the MacDermott Roe family that lived nearby.
O’Sullivan also notes: (p.254) “It is perhaps worth mentioning that there is an English folk song, of fairly wide distribution in England, which is entitled ‘The Princess Royal’ but which has no connection with Carolan’s melody . . .” The ‘Princess Royal’ that appears in Gow’s collection, although without attribution, is Carolan’s.
So, Sarah "Eleyne", this IS an Irish tune after all.
We dance to this as a reel, but on fiddle/harpsichord we play it slower.
My fiddler/harpsichord building friend is making me a hammered dulcimer - when it's done lonefiddler will be allowed to leave SF - but not without much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part of the rest of us -
JC's tunefinder has - many - versions of this tune. But the first two tunes up are not this tune (one of them is in 3/4) - so maybe one of them is the non-O'Carolan. The first one seems to have an English country dance feel - maybe it's the Kidson (Grove) tune -
the abc's suggested are quite nice, but the cape breton setting i've heard is very different from any of them (at least to my somewhat inexperienced ear). i'm going to have to go back to listening hard to some recordings to get the tune down in the way i'm hearing it played. no rest for the wicked, i guess
I've heard a tune by this name, which appears to be related to the tune attributed to O'Carolan, but is in a major key. It is popular in England as a Morris dance tune, and, among English trad players, would probably be classed as a reel.
I'll post what I remember of it here:
K: G
dc | B2A2G2dc | B2A2G2d2 | e3d cde2 | d6 .....
Eleyne, if you recognise those few bars, I can try and track down the rest of it for you.
I was surprised to see this as a reelasI've always heard it as a hornpipe. I know it three ways ....
1) the flat Irish hornpipe version as published in O'Niels and attributed to O'Carolan (to go further, as some correspondents have done, would be an act of faith rather than of scholarship)
2) the major lumpy version that is foundin several English Morris dance traditions.
3) the minor version that is from either the Fieldtown or Bampton Morris tradition. (sorry, I forget which village) The note values are prettymuch as that given in O'Niels but the way its played is much more angular than the Irish version. It shows what a poor representation notation really is.
Association with an English Morris tradition may or may not indicate antiquity. It fair to say that this tune is pretty widespread and anciently played throughout the British and Irish traditions (the only two traditions where I've not heard it played are theManx and Northumbrian). Perhaps its bettertoconcentrate in the differences in performance style rather than get bogged down on original authorship when this is unlikely to be resolved in any rigorous wayat this distancefrom the tunes creation.
Noel Jackson
Angels of the North
Northumbria, UK
Princess Royal
Princess Royal
i'm looking for notes for this reel, which is played in cape breton. i think it may have been written by niel gow. pretty much all the abc/sheet music i can find on the web is for the carolan tune which is, shall we say, somewhat different
(yeah, i know it's not an irish tune, but y'all have never failed me yet!)
sarah
# Posted on August 19th 2002 by eleyne
Re: Princess Royal
This is in RSCDS Book 2 (Royal Scottish Country Dance Society) available from www.rscds.org. It's listed as being from Gow's Repository. RSCDS books are fairly inexpensive. I'll see if I can put an abc up soon -
CJ
# Posted on August 19th 2002 by cj
Re: Princess Royal
Actually, there are a couple of abc's for this - in Gm and Em - in The Fiddler's Companion - there's a link from this site in the Tune Collections links. Type in Princess Royal, and then it's down a ways in the infor returned, but it's there. They are straight forward, but you could vary them to your heart's content. Might be faster than waiting on the abc's from me -
CJ
# Posted on August 19th 2002 by cj
Re: Princess Royal
I just posted the abc's from RSCDS Book 2 -
# Posted on August 19th 2002 by cj
The Princess Royal is by Turlough O'Carolan
I know "The Princess Royal" as a Carolan tune, so I was interested to see if this is the same tune. It is. Now that cj has posted the ABC, I can tell that it is definitely Carolan's melody, although with some variations from the version in Donal O'Sullivan's book (see below for reference).
From Ceolas: The Fiddler’s Companion website , under the entry for “ARETHUSA, THE. AKA and see "The Princess Royal."”:
“Irish writers have claimed that Turlough O'Carolan (1670-1738) composed the tune as "The Princess Royal," in honor of a daughter of Macdermott Roe. Kidson (Groves), however, maintains it was an English country dance from the early 18th century, dedicated to Anne, daughter of George II, who married the Prince of Orange in 1734.”
Personally, I trust the scholarship of Donal O’Sullivan [Carolan: The Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper, Ossian Publications, Ltd., 2001 (new edition)], who attributes the authorship of tune #87, “Miss MacDermott or The Princess Royal,” to Turlough O’Carolan. However, the exact identity of the Miss MacDermott is questioned. The most likely family is that of The MacDermott of Coolavin (“the representative of the old princes of Coolavin”, hence “The Princess Royal”), but there are no records of a daughter born in this family during Carolan’s lifetime. It appears that the daughters were left unmentioned in the official family pedrigree from that time. Another possibility, though not fitting the “royal” connection, is the MacDermott Roe family that lived nearby.
O’Sullivan also notes: (p.254) “It is perhaps worth mentioning that there is an English folk song, of fairly wide distribution in England, which is entitled ‘The Princess Royal’ but which has no connection with Carolan’s melody . . .” The ‘Princess Royal’ that appears in Gow’s collection, although without attribution, is Carolan’s.
So, Sarah "Eleyne", this IS an Irish tune after all.
Geekily,
The other Sarah
# Posted on August 19th 2002 by x
P.S.
In the versions I've heard, "The Princess Royal" is not a reel, but is played rather slowly, in a stately manner.
# Posted on August 19th 2002 by x
Re: Princess Royal
Great work, Sarah!
We dance to this as a reel, but on fiddle/harpsichord we play it slower.
My fiddler/harpsichord building friend is making me a hammered dulcimer - when it's done lonefiddler will be allowed to leave SF - but not without much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part of the rest of us -
# Posted on August 19th 2002 by cj
Re: Princess Royal
JC's tunefinder has - many - versions of this tune. But the first two tunes up are not this tune (one of them is in 3/4) - so maybe one of them is the non-O'Carolan. The first one seems to have an English country dance feel - maybe it's the Kidson (Grove) tune -
# Posted on August 19th 2002 by cj
Re: Princess Royal
the abc's suggested are quite nice, but the cape breton setting i've heard is very different from any of them (at least to my somewhat inexperienced ear). i'm going to have to go back to listening hard to some recordings to get the tune down in the way i'm hearing it played. no rest for the wicked, i guess
but thanks to everyone who came up with sources!
sarah
# Posted on August 20th 2002 by eleyne
Re: Princess Royal
I've heard a tune by this name, which appears to be related to the tune attributed to O'Carolan, but is in a major key. It is popular in England as a Morris dance tune, and, among English trad players, would probably be classed as a reel.
I'll post what I remember of it here:
K: G
dc | B2A2G2dc | B2A2G2d2 | e3d cde2 | d6 .....
Eleyne, if you recognise those few bars, I can try and track down the rest of it for you.
# Posted on August 21st 2002 by granama
Re: Princess Royal
I was surprised to see this as a reelasI've always heard it as a hornpipe. I know it three ways ....
1) the flat Irish hornpipe version as published in O'Niels and attributed to O'Carolan (to go further, as some correspondents have done, would be an act of faith rather than of scholarship)
2) the major lumpy version that is foundin several English Morris dance traditions.
3) the minor version that is from either the Fieldtown or Bampton Morris tradition. (sorry, I forget which village) The note values are prettymuch as that given in O'Niels but the way its played is much more angular than the Irish version. It shows what a poor representation notation really is.
Association with an English Morris tradition may or may not indicate antiquity. It fair to say that this tune is pretty widespread and anciently played throughout the British and Irish traditions (the only two traditions where I've not heard it played are theManx and Northumbrian). Perhaps its bettertoconcentrate in the differences in performance style rather than get bogged down on original authorship when this is unlikely to be resolved in any rigorous wayat this distancefrom the tunes creation.
Noel Jackson
Angels of the North
Northumbria, UK
# Posted on August 24th 2002 by noelbats
Re: Princess Royal
It would be much more useful if all this information and debate were posted *with* the tune itself, instead of here in the discussions area.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/905
# Posted on August 25th 2002 by Jeremy