Had the pleasure of hearing the live thing at the album launch in edinburgh on tuesday. Despite the lack of attendance, Mike and co. never failed to rock the place! The album is brilliant, as it shows McGoldrick confirming his status as the ultimate flute legend! Those who fear his styles' lack of boundaries are doing themselves out of the enjoyment of such an artist. Those who are willing to hold their hands up and give his music a go, will definately have a great time listening to a pure genius at work.
"McGoldrick confirming his status as the ultimate flute legend!" - Interesting notion! But, pray tell, where does Harry Bradley fit into your scheme of things, in the Flute world. In your eyes, is Harry perhaps a lesser player bacause he doesn't play 'Jazz'?
God No! I love Harry's playing, he, too, has a very unique style. I was merely laying down my own preference. As I said in my initial comment in this discussion, those who perhaps 'fear' what you call 'jazz' are never going to be able to enjoy the exciting and skillful sounds of Mike and others who are setting boundaries outwith the traditional.
Sorry tea, just funnin'. I'm not a flute player myself, so am not qualified to comment on either of them at all, so feel free to totally disregard my comments (most folk here do already!)
Personally I love what McGoldrick does & I'm a big fan of Bradley too.
I just don't get what Flook do though!
Would you perhaps class 'that' as Jazz?
I know these guys are pushing the boundaries & I applaud them for their efforts, but that doesn't mean I must enjoy it, at all costs.
By the same token, I believe Pibroch is a wonderful, & meaningful music & art form, but try as I might, I just don't get about 70% of it.
So it's not the newness of Flook's music, it's just it's shape, form & sound that I'm afraid doesn't do anything for me.
If you are a huge Flook fan - Sorry! But hey, we all have our own ears.
i heard him on the radio live last night from aberdeen and it was some of the best music i have ever heard.the new cd is legend.
in my opinion mike mcgoldrick is not only the greatest flute player of all time but the greatest musician of all time.the man is a legend.
argue with that if you want but you are only fooling yourself,but keep an eye on the top ten cd sales in the trad mag over the next few months.no prizes for guessing who will top that.
It's probably worth bearing in mind that both Mike and FLOOK to my knowledge have never claimed to be playing "Jazz". Like many contemporary folk or traditional acts they may have drawn some inspiration and even some actual material from jazz forms, this of course does not make it jazz, good, bad or indifferent. Not that I am any expert, but it seems that there are forms of ethnic jazz that are quite distinct as movements in the world of music. *As far as I am concerned* Ireland has yet to produce anything significant to add to 'ethnic jazz'. Several people have taken it as a sort of revisionist crusade to produce some sort of Irish folk/ jazz, but I am not at all convinced that there is anything there that goes beyond the obvious, that is not totally self concious or that is doing justice to both its ITM and jazz roots as art.
To use the term "jazz" in a derogatory sense (as it has been used in Ireland in the past) is unfair because, as anyone who knows jazz will tell you, the actual scope of jazz is hugh. Beyond anybody's understanding in its entirity, and as I mentioned, there is jazz and then there is ITM with some jazzy influences... so lets bet clear what we mean when we use terms (jazz influence is not new to ITM... listen to many of the 78 records from the 20s and 30s which drew on the pop craze of the day i.e types of jazz).
BTW, I can clear up the confusion about 'who's best'. I consider Mike McG to be a much superior flute player than me: his technique is much more developed and he takes the whole thing much more seriously. That does'nt mean I prefer his music to the music that I aspire to though... in the same way I consider Willie Clancy to be a superior *musician* to Seamus Ennis because he incorporated so much, experimented so much with styles, played so fluently when on form; but I still much prefer Ennis as a *piper* even though his style was much more focused and established early on in his playing career.
The one on sales-based charts is easily dispelled: if we accept sales of CDs alone as a hallmark of quality then are we to assume that some digital frog from a mobile phone who sold X 100s of thousands of singles in the UK is a superior musician to Mike McGoldrick or any other accomplished minority interest artist?
It's interesting the way legends come & go.
When I started getting interested in ITM, Matt Molloy was the "ultimate flute legend" & I think he managed to maintain that position for all those years since the early Bothy days, until, that is, Mr. McGoldrick burst onto the scene.
From what you flute players are saying, it looks like he's going to be up there for a while, too.
Point taken Harry, (knuckles duly rapped!) what I should have said was indeed - "ITM with some jazzy influences" for I certainly wasn't trying to be derogatory. Perish the thought!
My son is actually a jazz musician & I have only the greatest admiration for all Jazz musicians.
When it comes to Jazz gigs I am fine with the Trad Jazz & Jazz Funk, I particularly enjoy the latter.
However, I just can't get my head around the Jazz Fusion - that is one complicated beastie, & when it comes to the way those guys seem to be able to improvise, it just blows me away!
ITM guys will slightly rearrange a piece each time through but from what I've heard, these Jazz guys seem to be able to turn a tune inside out - in full flight - simply breathtaking!
So, yes I meant the same thing about Flook, but perhaps there is even more of a Jazz influence there?
Or is it perhaps just that they ornament the music to such an extent that the melody gets a little lost to my ears.
Is it just that their music is more of an acquired taste perhaps &, like Pibroch maybe, I need to go & lock myself in a darkened room & subject myself to a block of nothing but their music, until I get the message?
I must confess too, I am uncomfortable with these ideas of the best player & best player ever, just as I am not a fan of competitions, but I fear that's a debate for another thread, on another day!
However, I am very comfortable with the concept of folk having a favourite & I can see how M. M. would be your favourite Flute player 'teadalover'.
As you point out Harry, there is also so much more to this ITM music than technique, &, no disrespect to you but my 'favourite' flute player to listen to is Catherine McEvoy.
Now, I have no idea if her technique is better or worse than anyone elses, & quite frankly it doesn't matter to me cause there is just something about her style, her choice of tunes & Catherine as a person that I warm to, every time I hear her play.
On the other hand, I have never had the pleasure of playing music with her & so my favourite flute player, when it comes to choosing one I would like to play with, would have to be Marcas O'Murchu. I just love his pace, phrasing & the style of his music.
So there you are you see, I don't even have 'one' favourite!
P. S. Not picking a fight Q. We are just having a discussion here & sure, isn't this a discussion page after all?
I think if anyone wishes to use it for advertising purposes they must be prepared to accept that a discussion may well follow on from their ad.
In which case, they end up with even more publicity & everyone's a winner.
Peace Bro.
The other day I heard Mike McGoldrick's Fused album referred to as 'trazz', which I found very amusing and not at all inappropriate.
I think you might be near the mark in suggesting that Flook isn't jazz.
They follow a trad structure - it's not a case of heads, bridges and breaks, but 16 bar AABB melodies (mostly - but certainly no serious deviations from trad norms there). The backing is distinct, but is more rhythmic than harmonically complex in the way that most forms of jazz are.
The tunes are not particularly jazz-like either. Brian and Sarah's original tunes don't use key-bending accidentals, although there's a fair amount of synchopation - something that is associated with jazz.
I don't think the ornamentation is out of the ordinary either. IMHO it's the counterpoint that confuses people into thinking it's jazz, I reckon. Counterpoint isn't *very* traditional, unless you go really far back to Pliny's time, when he described the music of the celts he encountered as polyphonic and contrapuntal (if I'm remembering this correctly).
I suppose in the counter melodies there is a fair bit of tension-building dissonance from time to time, but it's not extraordinarily jazzy is it? Perhaps someone who knows more about jazz forms and styles can comment.
So far the only outfit I've heard and thought, 'that's a really good fusion of jazz and trad', is Millish. They mess about with structure, rhythm and harmonies while keeping to traddish instrumentation and playing styles. www.millish.com
Ronan guilfoyle composed some interesting jazz pieces based on traitional music. That was full jazz, but there were elements of the tunes creeping in here and there...
I enjoyed it!
Ah Q, Re: Flook - you hit the nail on the head with - "although there's a fair amount of synchopation - something that is associated with jazz." It's that, to my ears anyway, over use of syncopation that I quickly find very annoying & irritating when listening to flook. As with all ornamentation, it is brilliant when used in moderation, but to my earsanyway, I'm sorry but Flook over egg the pudding!
Can't u lot just enjoy the music ..?. fused is great especially when your at work! or playng musical bumps with kids!!.Yes it's something different..but what the hey!..have any of you listened to Brendan powers?..traditionaly a blues harmonica player..but plays a mean irish traditional ..jobby!! jees it's late! lol!! On the other hand Davey Spilane went from trad Irish to The Blues on the uilene pipes( !! sorry for spelling!) The genre is evolving all the time..I am sure we are all guilty of learning a new tune that hasn't had time to let the paint dry on it yet!.....Sometimes it good fun to try something different..how many of you out there have worked out the theme to "Ballamory"?...sorry maybe thats just us in Scotland!! lol!!
bottom line is ..I love to listen to the old albums and styles ..but i like the new too...But truth be told none of us have enough time to learn eveything we hear..that we like...But we can all learn something from the old and the new.. My Final comment is "What came first the Ptarmigan or the Egg"?...lol
S t e a d y now fiona, I'm just expressing my opinion. It would be a strange discussion site if everyone loved everything & agreed with everyone else here, wouldn't it?
I really enjoy Brendan Powers & enjoy about perhaps 50% of what Davy does.
As for Ballamory, I make a point of learning all these daft kids tv prog theme tunes, cause I teach round some of the local schools & these tunes are very useful to know, when trying to get the kids interested in learning to play.
As for - "What came first the Ptarmigan or the Egg" - fraid I can't remember, I was only little, all I can tell you is, I ate all the pudding!
Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
Had the pleasure of hearing the live thing at the album launch in edinburgh on tuesday. Despite the lack of attendance, Mike and co. never failed to rock the place! The album is brilliant, as it shows McGoldrick confirming his status as the ultimate flute legend! Those who fear his styles' lack of boundaries are doing themselves out of the enjoyment of such an artist. Those who are willing to hold their hands up and give his music a go, will definately have a great time listening to a pure genius at work.
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by teadalover
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
The advertising wasn't very good. I hadn't realised he was playing there until I was somewhere else.
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
Any samples??
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by pitnekit
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
yeah, there's loads of lovely pipes on it. I'm sure you can hear samples on www.tradtunes.net or www.tradtunes.com happy listenin
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by teadalover
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
"McGoldrick confirming his status as the ultimate flute legend!" - Interesting notion! But, pray tell, where does Harry Bradley fit into your scheme of things, in the Flute world. In your eyes, is Harry perhaps a lesser player bacause he doesn't play 'Jazz'?
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
hmmm here we go. im going home
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
God No! I love Harry's playing, he, too, has a very unique style. I was merely laying down my own preference. As I said in my initial comment in this discussion, those who perhaps 'fear' what you call 'jazz' are never going to be able to enjoy the exciting and skillful sounds of Mike and others who are setting boundaries outwith the traditional.
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by teadalover
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
P. S. Yeah, two tracks can be heard on http://www.tradtunes.com
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
Please don't start picking fights over a harmless bit of advertising bumf, Ptarmigan.
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by Q
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
Sorry tea, just funnin'. I'm not a flute player myself, so am not qualified to comment on either of them at all, so feel free to totally disregard my comments (most folk here do already!)
Personally I love what McGoldrick does & I'm a big fan of Bradley too.
I just don't get what Flook do though!
Would you perhaps class 'that' as Jazz?
I know these guys are pushing the boundaries & I applaud them for their efforts, but that doesn't mean I must enjoy it, at all costs.
By the same token, I believe Pibroch is a wonderful, & meaningful music & art form, but try as I might, I just don't get about 70% of it.
So it's not the newness of Flook's music, it's just it's shape, form & sound that I'm afraid doesn't do anything for me.
If you are a huge Flook fan - Sorry! But hey, we all have our own ears.
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
i heard him on the radio live last night from aberdeen and it was some of the best music i have ever heard.the new cd is legend.
in my opinion mike mcgoldrick is not only the greatest flute player of all time but the greatest musician of all time.the man is a legend.
argue with that if you want but you are only fooling yourself,but keep an eye on the top ten cd sales in the trad mag over the next few months.no prizes for guessing who will top that.
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by fused
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
McGoldrick writes some great tunes also one of my favorites is Ceol Na Mara it is on Lunasa's Otherworld. By the way I love Flook.
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by Why Bother?
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
It's probably worth bearing in mind that both Mike and FLOOK to my knowledge have never claimed to be playing "Jazz". Like many contemporary folk or traditional acts they may have drawn some inspiration and even some actual material from jazz forms, this of course does not make it jazz, good, bad or indifferent. Not that I am any expert, but it seems that there are forms of ethnic jazz that are quite distinct as movements in the world of music. *As far as I am concerned* Ireland has yet to produce anything significant to add to 'ethnic jazz'. Several people have taken it as a sort of revisionist crusade to produce some sort of Irish folk/ jazz, but I am not at all convinced that there is anything there that goes beyond the obvious, that is not totally self concious or that is doing justice to both its ITM and jazz roots as art.
To use the term "jazz" in a derogatory sense (as it has been used in Ireland in the past) is unfair because, as anyone who knows jazz will tell you, the actual scope of jazz is hugh. Beyond anybody's understanding in its entirity, and as I mentioned, there is jazz and then there is ITM with some jazzy influences... so lets bet clear what we mean when we use terms (jazz influence is not new to ITM... listen to many of the 78 records from the 20s and 30s which drew on the pop craze of the day i.e types of jazz).
BTW, I can clear up the confusion about 'who's best'. I consider Mike McG to be a much superior flute player than me: his technique is much more developed and he takes the whole thing much more seriously. That does'nt mean I prefer his music to the music that I aspire to though... in the same way I consider Willie Clancy to be a superior *musician* to Seamus Ennis because he incorporated so much, experimented so much with styles, played so fluently when on form; but I still much prefer Ennis as a *piper* even though his style was much more focused and established early on in his playing career.
The one on sales-based charts is easily dispelled: if we accept sales of CDs alone as a hallmark of quality then are we to assume that some digital frog from a mobile phone who sold X 100s of thousands of singles in the UK is a superior musician to Mike McGoldrick or any other accomplished minority interest artist?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on October 6th 2005 by Harry B
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
It's interesting the way legends come & go.
When I started getting interested in ITM, Matt Molloy was the "ultimate flute legend" & I think he managed to maintain that position for all those years since the early Bothy days, until, that is, Mr. McGoldrick burst onto the scene.
From what you flute players are saying, it looks like he's going to be up there for a while, too.
Point taken Harry, (knuckles duly rapped!) what I should have said was indeed - "ITM with some jazzy influences" for I certainly wasn't trying to be derogatory. Perish the thought!
My son is actually a jazz musician & I have only the greatest admiration for all Jazz musicians.
When it comes to Jazz gigs I am fine with the Trad Jazz & Jazz Funk, I particularly enjoy the latter.
However, I just can't get my head around the Jazz Fusion - that is one complicated beastie, & when it comes to the way those guys seem to be able to improvise, it just blows me away!
ITM guys will slightly rearrange a piece each time through but from what I've heard, these Jazz guys seem to be able to turn a tune inside out - in full flight - simply breathtaking!
So, yes I meant the same thing about Flook, but perhaps there is even more of a Jazz influence there?
Or is it perhaps just that they ornament the music to such an extent that the melody gets a little lost to my ears.
Is it just that their music is more of an acquired taste perhaps &, like Pibroch maybe, I need to go & lock myself in a darkened room & subject myself to a block of nothing but their music, until I get the message?
I must confess too, I am uncomfortable with these ideas of the best player & best player ever, just as I am not a fan of competitions, but I fear that's a debate for another thread, on another day!
However, I am very comfortable with the concept of folk having a favourite & I can see how M. M. would be your favourite Flute player 'teadalover'.
As you point out Harry, there is also so much more to this ITM music than technique, &, no disrespect to you but my 'favourite' flute player to listen to is Catherine McEvoy.
Now, I have no idea if her technique is better or worse than anyone elses, & quite frankly it doesn't matter to me cause there is just something about her style, her choice of tunes & Catherine as a person that I warm to, every time I hear her play.
On the other hand, I have never had the pleasure of playing music with her & so my favourite flute player, when it comes to choosing one I would like to play with, would have to be Marcas O'Murchu. I just love his pace, phrasing & the style of his music.
So there you are you see, I don't even have 'one' favourite!
P. S. Not picking a fight Q. We are just having a discussion here & sure, isn't this a discussion page after all?
I think if anyone wishes to use it for advertising purposes they must be prepared to accept that a discussion may well follow on from their ad.
In which case, they end up with even more publicity & everyone's a winner.
Peace Bro.
# Posted on October 7th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
'if we accept sales of CDs alone as a hallmark of quality'
If we accept sales of CD's alone as a hallmark of quality, the entire human race is going to the dogs very, very fast.
# Posted on October 7th 2005 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
The other day I heard Mike McGoldrick's Fused album referred to as 'trazz', which I found very amusing and not at all inappropriate.
I think you might be near the mark in suggesting that Flook isn't jazz.
They follow a trad structure - it's not a case of heads, bridges and breaks, but 16 bar AABB melodies (mostly - but certainly no serious deviations from trad norms there). The backing is distinct, but is more rhythmic than harmonically complex in the way that most forms of jazz are.
The tunes are not particularly jazz-like either. Brian and Sarah's original tunes don't use key-bending accidentals, although there's a fair amount of synchopation - something that is associated with jazz.
I don't think the ornamentation is out of the ordinary either. IMHO it's the counterpoint that confuses people into thinking it's jazz, I reckon. Counterpoint isn't *very* traditional, unless you go really far back to Pliny's time, when he described the music of the celts he encountered as polyphonic and contrapuntal (if I'm remembering this correctly).
I suppose in the counter melodies there is a fair bit of tension-building dissonance from time to time, but it's not extraordinarily jazzy is it? Perhaps someone who knows more about jazz forms and styles can comment.
So far the only outfit I've heard and thought, 'that's a really good fusion of jazz and trad', is Millish. They mess about with structure, rhythm and harmonies while keeping to traddish instrumentation and playing styles. www.millish.com
# Posted on October 7th 2005 by Q
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
Ronan guilfoyle composed some interesting jazz pieces based on traitional music. That was full jazz, but there were elements of the tunes creeping in here and there...
I enjoyed it!
# Posted on October 7th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
Ah Q, Re: Flook - you hit the nail on the head with - "although there's a fair amount of synchopation - something that is associated with jazz." It's that, to my ears anyway, over use of syncopation that I quickly find very annoying & irritating when listening to flook. As with all ornamentation, it is brilliant when used in moderation, but to my earsanyway, I'm sorry but Flook over egg the pudding!
# Posted on October 7th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
Can't u lot just enjoy the music ..?. fused is great especially when your at work! or playng musical bumps with kids!!.Yes it's something different..but what the hey!..have any of you listened to Brendan powers?..traditionaly a blues harmonica player..but plays a mean irish traditional ..jobby!! jees it's late! lol!! On the other hand Davey Spilane went from trad Irish to The Blues on the uilene pipes( !! sorry for spelling!) The genre is evolving all the time..I am sure we are all guilty of learning a new tune that hasn't had time to let the paint dry on it yet!.....Sometimes it good fun to try something different..how many of you out there have worked out the theme to "Ballamory"?...sorry maybe thats just us in Scotland!! lol!!
bottom line is ..I love to listen to the old albums and styles ..but i like the new too...But truth be told none of us have enough time to learn eveything we hear..that we like...But we can all learn something from the old and the new.. My Final comment is "What came first the Ptarmigan or the Egg"?...lol
# Posted on October 8th 2005 by fionarua
Re: Wired- New Mike McGoldrick Album
S t e a d y now fiona, I'm just expressing my opinion. It would be a strange discussion site if everyone loved everything & agreed with everyone else here, wouldn't it?
I really enjoy Brendan Powers & enjoy about perhaps 50% of what Davy does.
As for Ballamory, I make a point of learning all these daft kids tv prog theme tunes, cause I teach round some of the local schools & these tunes are very useful to know, when trying to get the kids interested in learning to play.
As for - "What came first the Ptarmigan or the Egg" - fraid I can't remember, I was only little, all I can tell you is, I ate all the pudding!
# Posted on October 8th 2005 by Ptarmigan