Maybe sometimes sessions flow better when good players don't have to pander to learners or lesser players, for just to be nice and keep them on board. For then when they don't turn up, you discover you have wings again and soar above the nonsense, and the turgid pointlessness of playing, or flogging, poor old donkey tunes time after time. And the feeling of liberation is...brill. Like what sessions should be about.
SOOoooOO? CAN *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I suppose it really depends how big a SNOB you are?
Just remember, we were all "learners or lesser players" at one time & delighted, when we managed to find a civilised session that wasn't full of 'Ar*e Holes' who only wanted to soar like butterflies all the time!
Fraid the 'Donkeys' are in fact the so called 'Liberated Musicians' who have no time for learners & lesser players!
Can't think of anything more 'Turgidly Pointless' than being in a session with self-confessed soarers!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The whole point is that we shouldn't need to have any session etiquette. Session etiquette is only needed when people lose their sense of common decency and good manners.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
IMHO, it comes down to etiquette- or what we should have learned as children. If you are the new person, you should be respectful of the sessioners who have been there before you.
To me, this means keeping a low profile, or as we say, "flying under the radar", until you are familiar with the expectations of the group. I tell my students to add to but never to subtract from the group.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well, there are different types of session with different levels.
If you are a beginner (or your level is not that high no matter how long you've been playing for), and you go to a higher level session, you know that you are going to be listening more that playing.
I normally play what I feel like and not what beginners want to play because that's BORING, and getting bored is not the point of the session.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
If I had a session to go to so regularly that I could recognize "good players" from "learners" or "lesser players" I would be so delighted that I would play whatever tunes at whatever speed anyone wanted to play them. "ike what sessions should be about" to me is playing tunes with people who want to play tunes. Flogging donkey tunes? What are donkey tunes? I'm sure I made a donkey of myself at sessions when I was a learner and a lesser player. I never felt like I spoiled the experience for anyone else though. But maybe that's just the kind of session I was able to find at the time -- one that welcomed people who were learners and lesser players because the fun is sharing the music. I'm with Ptarmigan on this.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think we should all love one another and give little gifts such as flowers and sweets to everyone at sessions. And there should definitely be a lot more kissing and fondling between beginners and advanced players.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
O K Indie. You've had your little joke & now it's time to come out of that cupboard & confess to this wind-up! We know that nobody could, in their right mind, really mean this thread! Ho Ho, very funny, right that's enough!
Oh Yeah, & I'm with Cammy on the 'more fondling' thing!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hi Showaddydadito, really succinctly put!
From reading all the postings above (apart from bringing a lot of joy to a wet Gloucestershire Friday morning) I think all the soarers have been well and truly brought down to earth!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Since when was "pandering to learners and lesser players" or "playing donkey tunes" part of session ettiquette, anyway? It's nice to be inclusive but visitors to a session shouldn't expect this. Surely, it's also good ettiquette for them not to expect the "better" and more experienced players to pander to them. By all means, they should go along but "listen and learn", if they don't know all the tunes.
Having said all that, most decent human beings(as opposed to players) will surely want to give a newcomer a chance but this doesn't mean that they have to descend to a lowest common denominator. They could either include the occasional well known set or offer an opportunity for the visitor to start a tune. This only need take up a few minutes and then everybody's happy.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
This could be an entertaining thread to watch - it has the potential to become quite heated. I've booked a ring-side seat here and I've got my bag of popcorn and ice cream in my sweaty paws.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
So Danny, behind the gruff persona lies an incorrigable snob(!)
Soar my arse! (Geddit!)
It sounds like you wrote that on the high after getting back from a 'better-than-usual' session. Sessions can get 'bogged down' sometimes, but sessions are sessions. If you really want to play the stuff you want to play all the time you have to turn it into a gig, which can also become tedious, because then you have more of a responsibility to play and not slack.
Most (not all) of our sessions at the moment are heading in the slacking direction, with a lot of chat, the odd impromptu lesson, some nurturing of new/diffident players. If I want to spend a night going for it hammer and tongs, I go to The Herschell and hang on to the fast boys' shirt tails for a thrilling ride(!)
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Anyway, it's worth it getting some abuse from you lot, just to imagine Dow going purple and apoplectic, nose pressed against the monitor screaming obscenities at me.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Haven't been to the Herschell yet, Ottery, but I've been to other sessions with some of the flyboys who play there and it is bloody thrilling.
Haven't actually *played* much with them, mind you; since arriving in London I've discovered the number of tunes I know is woefully inadequate, but I think I would have been mortified if they had - grudgingly or otherwise - toned everything down, played simpler, more well known tunes, in order to accomodate me.
To sit in on a flyboy session is better than a concert, imho. The players are riffing off've each other, unscripted, unrehearsed, and there's some great wit and magic in what comes out of it. I guess this is a 'high level session' thing. I really don't understand why people knock 'em. But I've realised they are a different beast to the regular sort of session.
Still, there's reason to aspire to the heights of a flyboy session: They seem to be the only ones where the drinks are free these days!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
You know perfectly well what I was saying, Dow.
Good manners, as Dave suggests is very important. However, this should apply to everybody at a session from the beginners all the way up to the "big boys".
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
No Danny, it was me who brought in the contentious issue of speed. It just happens that most of the better sessions I go to are a notch or two faster than the ‘mixed’ affairs. (that isn’t to say that I think all good sessions have to be hell for leather – my very favourite session at the moment is small, with lively music played at a moderarate clip)
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well, I'm with Naill on this one. But then again there can often be room for both. The way it kind of goes where I like to play is, yes, it's taken down a notch at the beginning. There maybe bits of impromptu tune swapping, the newbies get to play a set or two. It's all nice and polite etc. I like to play some common reels and jigs at a snails pace occasionally. Then the anti gets upped and if you can't keep up, the message is quite clear, don't spoil it.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think it depends on why you are having the session in the first place.
There's nothing wrong with setting up a session of very agile players...but I would think this would do better as a closed session or a house session, and just invite the ones you want to come.
If you are having session to pass the music on, to learn as well as teach, and you are having it in a public setting, then you must expect there will be some players who need some slower tunes.
That said, I've rarely seen a session get too bogged down by beginners, because if someone starts up a fast tune they usually won't even try to play along. So this isn't a problem in our sessions.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Depends how you pronounce it, Geoff. But I bet *you* prefer soaring sessions to snoring sessions. Or incremental ones as opposed to excremental...or just mental...
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I don't think anyone should be pandered to. Check to see if you are up to the level of the session. Either you can add something to the session or not. Listen first right??
That said, I am attending (and hopefully playing ) my first Donkey session tomorrow. It's the first meeting of a slow session, so I think I should be able to play something.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think all have to keep in mind that there's always somebody who plays better and feel pretty bored playing with you. Never know when a Menuhin or FiddlinHendrix comes on stage. Never fly too high, the air gets thin.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Get off my moral high-horse?
Are you mad?
Normally I’m in the position of having to claw and grovel my way back from some position I’ve put myself in by hurling unnecesarily vile and sneering slander at some hapless contibutor to this site.
It's nice to watch someone else trying to dig themselves out of a hole!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I like a good closed session now and again, but I also think it's important to keep up the standard in a particular public place. This is not for the punters of course, I have nothing but withering contemp for them, but to keep the standard as a kind of homage to the reputation of a place that will always be bigger than yourself. If you want visiting musicians of a high standard to visit your session, then you owe it to yourself and them to keep the biginners in the background. I know this sounds harsh, but it's for the best in the end
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The fact that 'michael has just explained it' doesn't necessarily make it so ...
Not that I particularly disagree with you.
or him, come to think of it.
I like the idea of 'keeping up the standard in a particular public place', though in the long term, this might be dependant on encouraging a bit of new 'homegrown' blood, so a bit of 'pandering' could be useful.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ach the oul' session etiquette thingy. The wasy I see it is: if you can play along and enjoy yourself while doing so then play along. If you can't at all, don't bother. If you're nearly there, play quietly.
If you're already a regular it's nice to invite people to start one themselves but you should stick to the level you're comfortable with for the rest of the time, I reckon.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think anyone who knows that they are such a good a player that consorting with lesser mortals in a public session will be irritating and counterproductive should feel free to stay home and play with themselves.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
And I thought that was your Belfasht accent, Conán.
Although I came in after the session last night high on a good session as you said Ottery, and also with a few beers on me, I do remember I was careful to preface the post with "maybe sometimes", cos I had a fair idea I'd have all The Session.org hounds baying for my blood. Most of the time beginners are more than tolerated, but it was good just to get to somewhere else, sessionwise.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well let's face it, few of us are ever going to come close to the level of your Tommy Peoples and John McSherrys. By the way, I know there are people on this site who already are astounding musicians...
But it's nice to play in a session where everyone is at more or less the same level. No inferiority complexes or conversely choosing tunes that are overplayed.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I agree heartily with Mr Gill here that the standard should be upheld. If you have nothing but slow sessions in town, where is anyone going to go to hear the real thing? Or play in the real thing?
And yeah, what Conan said there with people around the same level playing together without thinking about it too much. Just playing tunes.
Ettiquette can be maintained along with a standard. Passing along the tradition should be done in real-time. A session is a session, not a lesson or a workshop.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"I don't think anyone should be pandered to. Check to see if you are up to the level of the session. Either you can add something to the session or not. Listen first right?"
Michael puts it in terms here that a lot of people who are at an intermediate or beginning level might consider to be harsh or anti-social. People who have yet to have overcome the obstacles of their chosen instrument might feel excluded if they can’t play at the session’s established level. I was asking Charlie Lennon one night about his Sessions Etiquette page he published in his tune book and he said the same thing but more gently. He basically said that the bottom line is to observe the session first so that if you choose to join in you won't interrupt the flow of the music. I think the mistake a lot of people make about a session they visit is that they somehow expect the session to cater to their needs and desires -- and if it doesn't -- something's wrong with it. In my opinion this is like looking at the session from the backside -- all you'll see is the sh*te. This goes both ways of course; when more advanced players visit a session where the players are at mid-level they shouldn’t interrupt the flow there either.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Actually Jack, you quoted me, and I am a beginner at the fiddle and this music. I don't consider this harsh at all. We have a responsibility to put in the time necessary before heading into a session with gear in hand. I've been taking lessons for about a year and a half to two. I know I am not up to participating in a standard session. I'd rather listen then jump in and ruin the evening for those who have done their time in lessons, easy tunes, etc. Participation in a session will be a reward for the slaving away.
Deb.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hey Jode,
I'm genuinely puzzled by your statement, "Passing along the tradition should be done in real-time. A session is a session, not a lesson or a workshop."
What does the first sentence mean (i.e. what is 'real-time' - what is a session if not real-time - Dream time maybe? - Dow? Isn't that some sort of aboriginal thing?)?
And why can't a session be whatever the participants want it to be?
I do quite like the idea of separating the two things if possible (There used to be a great Sunday afternoon session in Oxford which was preceded by an hour's 'masterclass' with the lead fiddler, Danny Lenehan - unfortunately dead now, both Danny and the session). Yes, it's greart to spend an evening with your mates, playing the stuff you like to play. But sometimes, particularly if things are a bit quiet, and it's that sort of session, it can be nice to have someone teach you a tune or some instrumental skills. Why not? Why do things have to be so black and white?
And DebWah. I can't believe you want to be a goody-goody THAT much! Sneak into Jack's session one night, whip out the old fiddle and give'em a blast of Egan's Polka, then disappear back into the night!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Exactly Jack.
I've recently (over the last couple of years) encountered the species of learner who wants everything slowed down to *their* pace, wants *their* sets to be played, etc., and frequently, and wouldn't be shy about telling us. So it has to be said a breath of fresh air was breathed in the absence.
"Ask not what your session can do for you, but what you can do for your session."
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
We should always be encouraging and polite to newcomers. But I will admit that sometimes, the right thing to do is to politely encourage them to just listen for a while, to practice at home more, to find another venue for their talents, or to take lessons.
As my minister sometimes says, especially when talking about abusive relationships, loving your neighbor doesn't mean that you should let them turn you into their doormat!
It is all about striking the proper balance.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well gee Jack, thanks for the invite. I'll start practicing Egan's in Emin.
Sensibilities aside, I usually don't mind making a jack, er ottery, er donkey's a$$ of myself, but for some reason, I really would rather do that in circumstances other than a session.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ottery, no, it's not black and white. I agree that there are various ways to have a great session. No session is really the same, is it? But I am not one of those "it's all good" kinda guys.
The real time thing made sense to me at the time I wrote it. What I meant was that I don't think that slow sessions or learning sessions are in "real time". That they are a means to an end. And that end is to play tunes at dance speed with a nice rhythm and tasty notes. And that is what you do, in real time, at a session.
I dunno. It's Friday, and time to go home for cocktail hour.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hi Jode,
Thanks for that - I had what you said completely arse-about-face! I thought you meant that the tradition should be passed on at learning sessions, and that THEY were real time.
Duh!
Danny,
I must confess I haven't come across 'the species of learner who wants everything slowed down to *their* pace, wants *their* sets to be played, etc., and frequently, and wouldn't be shy about telling us."
That might get a bit wearing after a while(!)
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Our example of that species isn't nearly as bad as I portrayed, I have to admit. Just occasional flashes of that type of controlfreakery. Enough not to miss them, shall we say. Maybe I was being harsh, but it was evident that last night was a lot "lighter", for want of a better word.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The thing is (from my experience), if you have a few beginners at your session and you only play what they know all the time to make everyone join in, the level of the session is never going to get better, because then you are acommodating beginners in their laziness, you will play the same tunes week after week and they will learn nothing, there will be no challenge, and after a while it will become tedious.
So it's ok to play a beginners set once in a while, but don't let them take it for granted, make them work harder!
Wow! A lot has been said since I first made my own views known, quite plainly I think, at the top of the page!
Anyway, "A' wanna tell you a story" (Who said that?)
At our Thursday night session this week we were delighted to see a new face, & instrument, join us, & a BIG thanks to 'session.org', cause I actually bumped into our new friend on this very site earlier in the week & had promptly invited him along to our weekly little gathering.
Now, at this session we have a Whistle player who comes along now & then, but who only knows a few tunes, & plays them fairly slowly, & fairly steadily.
Anyway, he was there on Thurday night as we got started & so, keen to get playing, he kicked things of with his usual jigs & hornpipes & we always happily play along.
It's no big deal really.
He's a grand fellow & it's not a bad way to start things off, with a few nice, steady pieces.
In fact it is probably a good discipline.
Means we can ease ourselves gradually into things, loosen up our joints & check our tuning.
However, this guy knows his limitations & is quite happy to play his 2 or 3 sets & then sit back with his pint & listen.
He may throw in another 1 or 2 tunes before he goes, but whether he does or not, that's him happy.
Anyway, back to the new guy - who I won't name for fear of ruining his reputation. Suffice to say he plays the (proper!) Concertina. He He
He arrived just as we were getting started, & politely (I was impressed) stood at the back until someone spotted his case & then we naturally invited him in, to join us.
Now, as we found out later, this young fellow is a superb musician, with loads of great tunes, exciting sets & skills & technique that have left me thinking I should probably convert my own Concertina to a flower pot!
Anyway, as he sat down, our old friend, 'the Whistle player' launched into something like Harvest & Bluehill, followed by a couple of bog standard jigs at a VERY VERY leisurely pace.
Our new player quite happily joined in with these, which were at almost funeral march pace, without batting an eyelid & so earned himself even more 'Brownie Points'!
However, as the night wore on, & the pace picked up, he demonstrated his great reportoire time & time again & there were some real ding dong sets between himself & our multi A. I. champ player - jaw dropping stuff.
Yet, these two, even later on, were quite happy to slow things down again, every now & then, for some leasurely paced easy tunes.
So all this, I hope, goes to show how a session can, & in my book should, strive to cater for all levels of player.
It also shows too, how simply that can be achieved between musicians who have perhaps never met before!
If your session isn't doing that, then it is surely not a 'session' at all, in the true sense of the word.
In which case it is more of an ego trip, more a case of "Oooo look at me, am I not simply wonderful to watch & listen to" - "Oh & by the way, if you can't keep up - then just feck off, we don't really care!"
Those 'non-sessions' must surely do more harm than good, for anyone seeing these 'Ego Nobs' at work must surely be completely turned off by them.
Wherase, at a real session, the warm & friendly atmosphere, which can at times be slow, steady & easy going, but can also quite easily enjoy, & demonstrate, short or long passages of blistering brilliance from it's more talented players, is surely a wonderful ambassador for ITM & must, by it's very nature, be responsible for encouraging so many people to have a go.
As was said above, etiquette shouldn't be a difficult concept to understand for it is quite simply about good manners.
Why is it so difficult for some folks to grasp that simple concept of - "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you"
Now - have a look back up this page & see how many 'EGO NOBS' you can spot.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ptarmigan, I think you’ve put you’re finger on it. Etiquette is the beginner’s responsibility, too.
I play with a group of musicians much more experienced than me. They’ve played together for years, and I’m picking up their repertoire fairly steadily, but sometimes we’ll come to a tune that I don’t have down yet, or don’t know at all, and I’ll sit back and listen. When they see I’m not playing, they’ll actually stop and try to teach me the tune. I have to assure them that I’m perfectly happy just listening.
On a certain level it’s not etiquette, it’s selfishness. I love this music and to sit in the midst of all that beautiful noise as they strut their stuff is really indescribable.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
OK then, I'm an "ego nob" then. I don't play for the better of humanity. There is nothing altruistic in my enjoyment of the tunes. OK so the greatest chunk of the enjoyment is playing with people, but that's people who can play. And I know that in order to do that you have to sometimes accommodate people who can't play "yet". But the goal is clear, enjoy yourself playing to the best of your ability.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
btw, clockwise/anti-clockwise, doesn't matter. Just as long as you don't hog the damn thing, waving it around as you get caught up in a stoner-liloquay.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Port was always passed clockwise and should be in a round bottomed decanter which meant that it couldn't sit on the table anywhere other than its round wooden stand which was normally in front of the male host.
I have always preferred the normal flat bottomed one because I like to leave it in front of me, I've always been very fond of Vintage Port and am lucky not to have Gout like some old drinking buddies..........
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
We had a nasty blow pass through last night, wasn’t fit for man nor dog. I couldn’t get down the hill to the wine shop and was stuck at home with nothing but an RL Buller & Sons tawny. Ah well, any port in a storm.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Greetings:
I don't think it's "etiquette" per se that causes problems in sessions. I think it's politics, a feeling that because of seniority or who you know, some of us are more equal than others even if we're all about the same ability. I absolutely abominate the, "That's MY seat" mentality.
I don't make the effort to go to one session I enjoy as frequently as I might because that spirit is definitely present. I once sat down near the front to get out of a server's line of travel and was rewarded by a downright angry and authoritarian, "Don't sit there" from the anchor. I also belong among the legions of SF Bay Area musicians who completely avoid another well-known session led by a member of a famous musical family because this mindset is absolutely out of control. One of the anchors is notoriously nasty. IMO having her around in that position after all these years reflects badly on the general leadership and judgment of the group. (An exampleof her behavior: shrieking, "Go home and practice" to a newbie.)
Session etiquette can make everything go more smoothly for everyone and help all of us have a better time. I really don't think too many rules are the problem in most cases. It's the attitude in which they're communicated.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Shay is a friend of mine, and I think his sessions are great for people at all levels. His control of the crowd is amazing the way he can quiet them down for the singers. I don't think anyone would take his seat at the session though, and he probably prefers his co-hosts sit next to him.
At the sessions I host with my pals across the Bay in SF, I insist we sit next to each other as well. This isn’t because we’re “authoritarians,” but rather because we just want to be able to hear each other -- that's why we anchor the session together. If someone who's visiting the session sits next to me on the side where my co-host sits -- I'll point it out and ask them to make room. There's nothing "authoritarian" about that, it's just session logistics.
I learned about this the hard way back in 1990 in Galway. I arrived at a session hosted by Charlie Piggot. I was sitting on the window bench with Charlie on one side and my wife on the other. A man came in with a bouzouki and motioned that he would like to have my seat. I said to him that I wanted to remain next to my wife. Charlie said, "Come on, we'll squeeze you in." and the man replied, "That's ok Charlie -- I know my place." and he sat on the other side of the fire. After about 2 minutes I realized it was Johnny Moynahan -- the other host. I felt like the clueless yank that I was, but quietly got up, apologized and switched seats with Johnny. It was a great night of tunes once I got over my embarrassment.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
>1. Thou shalt not be too annoying
2. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed<
Works for me.
I always try to keep in mind the unfortunate fact that before I knew what I was doing, I probably tromped on every possible etiquette rule at least once in complete innocence/ignorance.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yep, Cathryn, didn't we all. But most newbies are given normal levels of humility, thankfully, but also thankfully normal levels of "recovery after embarrassing yourself" hormone, because as we know, most newbies and old dogs are really just normal people -- but with a passion (and let's face it, you wouldn't be normal without at least one passion, be it film, football or fashion.) And as I said above, most normal people, especially if they are quite advanced (*very* occasionally I include myself in that category) in their pursuit of their interest, don't really enjoy being pulled back down to a beginner level.
I've read what I consider as many pertinent and salient remarks on this thread, but also a shed load of hypocrisy from players who know they are experienced, but pretending they are such saintly nice people to beginners, helping them along and all that bollox, but the bottom line is, what if a session, a potentially good session, starts to get dragged down to beginner level. Then the night a would-be prominent beginner or more, didn't turn up, and then how fluid and relaxed was that?
And don't start about better session management, I've heard it all.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
And good for you, Michael Gill. So I must be an Ego Nob as well. Let's form a little pressure group within the Session.org, then. Ego Nobs Against Ghastly Hypocrites -- ENAGH!
I turn up to a session with the hope, if not the expectation, of being able to participate in the playing at a reasonable level of several dozen tunes. Any half decent player who would tell me otherwise I would wonder what they're on about.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I hearby declare myself an EGO NOB as well, and so what!!!
It's the price you pay for being sincere.
I don't go to the sessions to please the beginners.
I haven't spent years of learning and practice to play "shoe the donkey".
Everyone of us is trying to fin his own satisfaction, only that some of us admit it and others don't.
Is not the beginner trying to satisfy his own ego as well? Of course he is, only that it takes less to satisfy him. That's it, is a different level.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Oh, and before I forget, Ptarmy. Before you realised it was me, Danny, a regular, you were quite prepared to vent your spleen and give out to me about being some species of A*seh0le, etc., because I had in your view contravened some unwritten law on sessionning, by my scribblings. (To whom I suspect you ascribed to a "The Session.org" newbie.)
Then after having gone down the thread your views seemed to have ameliorated, whereas mine have been steadfast. ie, "I don't like learners dominating a potentially good session, and isn't it great when good players regain the core of the session."
But I suspect you thought I was a genuine New Person at The Session.org, because I had changed my monicker. So I was therefore fair game to you once I started coming out with "stuff" that only an old hand should be allowed to say.
So, relating that to the content of this thread, no-one perceived as a "newbie" to The Session.org should be allowed to express the viewpoint that they prefer to play with seasonned players, rather than newbies. So if Frankie Gavin joined tomorrow under some guise, his view might not count until he became a regular?
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hmm!
This is a very 'polarised' thread. Ego Snobs vs. Ghastly hypocrites!
Real sessions aren't really like that, are they?
Danny, your original post was quite polemical (the turgid pointlessness of playing, or flogging, poor old donkey tunes time after time, etc) and elicited an equally polarised assertion from Ptarmigan (Can't think of anything more 'Turgidly Pointless' than being in a session with self-confessed soarers!).
Both are rather black and white positions.
There is not a post above without SOME truth in it, but there are too many where that fragment of truth is misused to bang someone else pointlessly on the head.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ugh. I hope i'm neither an Ego Snob nor a Ghastly Hypocrite but suspect I have been and continue to be both at times. Just to dispel that GH possibility, let me admit that it's a fact that I don't enjoy beginner-type sessions, so I don't go to them. The less-than-wonderful ES truth is that I work too hard right now at my job to have the energy to be altruistic, noble, or martyred outside. I'm at sessions to have a good time, thank you very much. And am I ever capable of getting annoyed -- mostly at stuff that I wouldn't have thought of doing myself even when a clueless beginner, like stopping someone a half-dozen bars into a tune they're playing to demand the tune title. Bleeeah!
I make a further ES confession that I have stopped going to events led by a gentleman who would be a fantastic guitar player if he could only keep a steady rhythm and not tear away with the tune someone else has started. I wish I had two cents for every time I had pointedly played loudly and steadily while he tried to speed up, only to have him not get the hint, and for it to be a problem the next time. I was at a small session in a private home recently when he was doing this, and I left as soon as I felt I decently could do so.
Yep. Definitely both even though I try to be neither. Busted.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
>If someone who's visiting the session sits next to me on the side where my co-host sits -- I'll point it out and ask them to make room.<
Phantom Button, I suspect you do so politely and without anger, realizing it for the innocent mistake it probably is. That didn't happen the time I was referring to.
With regard to the session you referenced, if you are a friend of the leader's, it no doubt gives you a very different perspective than that of the new person who goes there. And I hold to what I said about some of the behavior I've seen at that session, specifically that of the anchor-type in question.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Jim... cheers, but Johnny and Charlie always sat next to each other at that session. I was going contrary to Charlie Lennon's advice never to disturb the flow of the music. They no doubt liked discussing the tunes to play, Charlie probaly reminded him of key changes etc. I should have known better. But maybe you were just referring to my girth when you said room should be made for me.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ok, Dow -- you want some name dropping? My sister is good friends with Robert Deniro, he put her in a recent movie with himself as a woman shopping for used cars. She also was good friends with Jerry Hall and spent Christmas with her and Mick once. I met Tom Wolf too, and offered Robin Williams my hat. My great grand uncle was one of Mark Twain's close friends, and Walt Witman was a close family friend.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
There is a complaint from Ottery that this conversation is polarized. And some other people like to take the middle ground also, and say there is room for both arguments.
But the original question is very straight forward:
"Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?"
The consensus here is that all session etiquette is, is good manners, and I agree with that. So the question is straight forward:
"Is it sometimes OK to be rude, for the greater good of having a good night of tunes?"
And Michael, that wasn't really a complaint, more an observation, it's quite an entertaining/informative thread .....
But, personally, I only think it's 'sometimes OK to be rude, for the greater good of having a good night of tunes.' if you're being rude to someone who's manners are deliberately bad, and should know better, and that would by definition (and usually is) an experienced person and not a beginner. A beginner might benefit from a few 'words', but rudeness shouldn't come into it.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Sorry Button.
"Anyway, "A' wanna tell you a story" (Who said that?)" Probably way before your time - if I remember correctly, it was actually a Max Bygraves catch phrase. (WHO - I hear you all cry!)
Cathry
"absolutely abominate the, "That's MY seat" mentality"
Must admit I used to go for that same seat mentality, but just because it meant the core musicians, they being the regulars who tended to steer the session, were well able to hear each other clearly.
However I do think that where people sit, can have a huge difference on the success or failure of a session to 'work'.
For example, at a session last week the flute player & myself were adjacent but the concertina player, the third strong melody player, was way up at the other end of our long table. Between him & us were a guitar player & a whistle player who only knew a few slow tunes & as the pub was fairly noisy, there was little connection between him & us.
Later on in the night, when the whistle player left, I managed to organise a shift so that the concertina player got tucked in beside us - after that the session just took off!!
So I firmly believe that where musicians sit, depending on what instruments they play, can be crucial.
So the "Anchor men" as Button calls them, do need to be together. A Charlie Piggot & Johnny Moynihan session - Mmmmmm tasy!
Cathry "...I probably tromped on every possible etiquette rule at least once..." - That's OK - once is an accident but twice is just plain stupidity.
Michael - "Is it sometimes OK to be rude," Surely No is the only answer to that question.
You can usually get any message across by being polite.
I suspect the Ego Nobs just like to throw their weight around & be rude because they think it makes them look more important.
However, instead, it just shows them up for the ill-mannered Ego nobs they obviously are!
Indie - it never occured to me that you'd changed your monicker, you see I treat people with respect, whether they are old hands or newcomers, I don't just treat them like sh*t, try to make them feel uncomfortable & alienate them from sessions because they are not part of the 'old boy' network or are just learning their craft.
I see you guys call each other by names other than your .org monickers here, but If being part of thesession.org's 'Old Boy' network means I have to become an Ego Nob & treat newcomers to ITM the way you recommend, then I'm glad I'm not in that particular club - thanks very much!
Just remember, it isn't your god given right that YOU alone have the best session ever, each time you go out to play! Other folks are also allowed to enjoy themselves, whether they're old hands or newcomers.
I would pity any newcomer to ITM who would have the obvious misfortune to go along to one of your sessions & expect common courtesy & encouragement.
From what you say, they'd probably come away from it, scarred for life!
As for Frankie Gavin joining a session. I remember, in 1978 I think it was, a bunch of us novices were happily playing away, at probably fairly easy stuff, could even have been 'Shoe the Donkey' too, in a pub in Miltown when Maurice Lennon & Paul Roche walked in & stood at the bar listening to us for ten minutes.
Needless to say their presence made us a 'little' uneasy as Stockton's Wing were the big noise that year.
Anyway, they left, & came back two minutes later & I'll never forget Maurice coming up to us & politely asking, in that deep baritone voice of his, if they could join our session!
Now they didn't ride roughshod over our session, as they could so easily have done, & as you would no doubt have done Indie, but rather they kept at our level & chatted & we had a great time.
I remember Paul producing the first Bb flute I'd ever seen & it sounded wonderful.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
So you agree then. It is OK to be occasionally rude. Too much etiquette can be a bad thing. But less specifically, I think the meaning behind the question is: "Isn't it great now and then not to have any crap players ruining your tune?" (and whether they are learners, who should and would normally get some slack, or players who are just plain crap, doesn't come in to it)
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"ruining 'your' tune?" I find the arrogance on this site absolutely astounding! Music is like the 'earth', none of us own it, we are just looking after it for those who follow.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ptarmigan, remind us again how... slagging people off, being over-familiar with strangers, calling them names, insulting their admittedly silly poetry, trampling over people's opinions, treating with disdain those who disagree with you, carping about their clique-ishness , preaching to everyone how they should behave and railing against the Power That Be's... is treating them with respect?
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Are you really telling me that you don't care about the standard of the music at your session? You'd rather be kind and decent and play crap all night?
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Michael - Who says that you have to play crap all night, just because you have a couple of beginners in?
I've seen many of these 'one dimensional' sessions before, mostly in cities, where strangers are ignored in the hope that they'll just simply go away & leave the wee bunch of eliteist Ego Nobs you enjoy 'their' music.
It gives me a doze of the dry vomit, every time.
Our sessions are in small country towns & villages & we are delighted to see new faces & we don't hold auditions to see if 'they are worthy' to join our session.
Oh - "Hippy sh*te. Custodians? nonsense." I see now, you are more to be pitied, than scolded!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
And if you concede (As I would) that many well known tunes are actually quite good e.g The Bucks , what's the harm of including a few here and there?
Then, everybody can go home happy.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I have a suspicion that the folk who get upset by beginners having the sheer audacity to even venture any where near 'their' sessions, like to think they are 'above' playing such perhaps easy to learn tunes as polkas, flings, barndances etc.
Personally speaking, if we haven't played a few of those in any of our sessions, then the evening is not complete. They are very often quite delightful tunes to play. The day I feel I am too 'good' to play these tunes, will be the day I give up ITM.
I hate this attitude that the only good tune is a reel, & unless it has 5 parts, it's just not worth bothering about.
I think they're a bit like those neanderthals who reckon that unless they've drunk 15 pints & been found lying in the gutter, in a pool of their own vomit, then they didn't have a good night on the town!
Worst session I ever attended was one I visited in Donegal where only reels were played for over two hours. The most mind-numbing experience I've ever had to endure. It was not a real session at all, just a set back.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
For my part, to help explain where I'm coming from on this, perhaps I should point out I am a late starter myself & so feel that I am, hopefully, considered to be a little past the beginner stage myself, & just floundering around somewhere in the middle ground, with enough experience & knowledge of the music to appreciate just how good, the good guys really are, but also still in touch with my roots & how it felt like to be a struggling beginner.
I can still remember sitting with my one good tune, waiting for it to come up so that I could join in, only to hear it being played as I come back from the loo!
Perhaps the Ego Nobs are not able to remember what it was actually like to be a beginner.
They are probably also the sort of guys who honk at learner drivers!
Perhaps the Ego Nobs require our sympathy rather than our condemnation?
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Dow - I'm sure nobody here disagrees with you that reels are cool, of course they are, we all love them, but ALL NIGHT, to the exclusion of all other tunes! No, not a good idea!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
At the end of the day, poor old Indie thought he'd be clever & go over the edge with this thread to provoke a response,
However, his plan backfired on him & his true colours were revealed in the process of this thread & his reputation will forever be tarred with the brush of 'Bad Manners' & 'unsportingly conduct' at sessions.
Indie, there's no escape, from now on, just as surely as I have been branded 'the grouse' so shall you be regarded for ever more as the original 'Ego Nob' of session.org
imo a session with just reels is like eating muesli without milk. i like to hear a few jigs/barndances etc thrown in.they're just so cool that u could keep a side of beef in them for a week and so hip that they have difficulty seeing over their shoulder(sorry,douglas)
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I have to get back on track here, 'cause there's been some name calling, sorry.
I reiterate:
The meaning behind the question is: "Isn't it great now and then not to have any crap players ruining your tune?" (and whether they are learners, who should and would normally get some slack, or players who are just plain crap, doesn't come in to it)
Let's look at the bit I put in the brackets:
There are two types of people who can't play. Those who can't play yet and those who, for one reason or another, will never be able to play.
I have plenty of time for those who can't play yet. And one of the great thing about these people is they know when enough is enough and they are intelligent enough to just sit and listen for the majority of the night. In fact, that's one of the ways you can tell them apart from the second kind ...
I freely admit that I am often rude to people who will never be able to play. For they hog the tunes, try to play all night, think they contribute etc etc. I have no time for them. This music is not a nice inclusive free for all. When it's played well it soars, and that should be the goal, to make it soar. It's as simple as that.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Wake up Jim & smell the Roses. The ITM garden is full of a rich variety of flowers with many colours & scents. I'm afraid the 'all reel' garden, next door, is very boring indeed - all grass!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
>Just remember, it isn't your god given right that YOU alone have the best session ever, each time you go out to play! Other folks are also allowed to enjoy themselves, whether they're old hands or newcomers.<
Yes. I think a good compromise is to have a set for everyone. I can grin and bear a few beginner-oriented sets as long as they don't dominate the evening, certainly. If there's encouragement of slow players, we have better odds of having more power players who really make a session go.
And I don't have a problem with being told I'm violating etiquette -- or telling someone -- if it's done politely and in a way that is constructive. and BTW, it's only "just plain stupidity" -- a phrase to be avoided at all costs in my very strong opinion if one wants to be taken seriously -- if you know that it's a violation of etiquette. I once pointed someone to session etiquette Websites. I did this because I would have been very pleased and appreciative had someone done the same thing for me one of the first times I'd gone to a session. I have been known to bring homemade jams to people who give me that kind of tip.
And there certainly might be good reasons to have the seating a certain way. So you explain the reason and point out another seat to the person who tries to sit where you don't want him/her to. Politely. Respectfully. Without snapping at them, and keeping in mind that they can't read yours.
A bit of an explanation as to where I'm coming from: there are so many people in this world (specifically, my sport-mad, nouveau-riche suburb) who are incapable of any enterprise more creative than watching a sport event on television. Nothing wrong with that, mind, unless it's a way of life -- which it is for nearly everyone out here. This has given me an appreciation of those who actually take up an instrument and go out and play with others more or less nicely. (Expletive), at least they're interesting. So I tend to admire fellow musicians just for being there, even if they p*** me off by interrupting me after I've started a tune to demand the title (I am just not getting over that one like I should >wg<).
A further illustration of my underlying philosophy: I was at Ceolas on South Uist when I overheard a teenage girl, a beginner, bemoaning how "awful" she sounded. I couldn't resist contradicting her. "No," I said firmly, "You sound GREAT." "I do?" she asked me doubtfully. "Yes. You sound like someone who's working hard to learn something excellent instead of just sitting in front of a TV set." "Oh." And of course, I asked her to play for me, and of course, I clapped fiercely. This is kind of the bottom line of how I regard fellow pub players in general.
I also attempt to take some responsibility for making the session a fun time for all. This is a goal that I have in mind when I enter the pub whether it's the first time or the 59th. If it's one of those weekends where I had to work through it and am feeling too sorry for myself to be civil, I'm absent from the session that night.
All this stuff can be worked out with some civility, some respect for others' feelings, and keeping in mind the sentences I quoted at the beginning of this post. (Expletive), if I ran the world, they'd be engraved on the walls of every facility where sessions are held.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Michael,
I still don't understand why you think it's useful to be rude to someone , experienced or not, simply because they can't play. I think you misunderstood what I said above and took it as tacit agreement with you that it was ok to be rude to such people. I actually said: (it's) 'OK to be rude, for the greater good of having a good night of tunes.' if you're being rude to someone who's manners are deliberately bad.
Please note the word 'manners' - not 'playing ability'. If someone is playing in a way that is intrusive and detrimental, surely they con be asked to stop without being rude to them. The way peoples egos tend to be, they will probably be offended enough by a simple quiet whisper in their ear that maybe they should listen more and play less, anyway(!)
Mark
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Michael, you are quite happy to select passages from the original thread, but ignore others which don't suit your argument!
What about - "And the feeling of liberation is...brill. Like what sessions should be about." - meaning, presumably that all sessions 'should' be devoid of learners & just full of soarers!
If that were the case, how would any of the beginners & learners ever gain first hand experience of sessions & learn by watching & listening.
Remember too that the newcomer not only learns the tunes, they also learn the accepted behaviour by watching the regular old hands.
As you sow, so shall you reap!
In years to come, some of todays soarers might find themselves excluded because they're just 'too old' to keep up with the next generation of soarers - now wouldn't that be poetic justice!
I, like everyone else here I'm sure, love to experience those soaring moments, but I'm not prepared to exclude other musicians just because 'I' deem them to be not worthy.
Neither am | greedy enough to expect only 'soaring' at sessions!
Anyway, doesn't this Ego Nob attitude just smack a little of 'the master race' mentality?
Come on guys, let's all remember our own early days & maintain a healthy, open & friendly attitude to our sessions, so that others may be 'encouraged' to join us.
Time for another story!
We had a Bodhran player who once brought along his Tambourine to our session & tapped it with his foot, under the table.
Now we could have been Ego Nobbish & humiliated him & so chased him away for ever, but I decided to talk to him, quietly, instead.
So, during the week I called round with him & in the course of our friendly conversation I explained that his tambourine just wasn't fitting in with the sound of the session & that I'd probably end up with a revolution on my hands if he insisted on bringing it again.
I explained that a tambourine wasn't really a traditional ITM instrument & it's sound didn't really fit in, & in fact some folks had said they even found it very irritating.
He took this on board & never brought it again, but still comes most weeks with his Bodhran.
There are two ways to do things, the right way & the wrong way.
Personally I'd try to go for good manners, & the right way, every time.
Why be rude?
I'm not saying I get it right every time, but I do try, & judging by some of the response above, some folks here already find me very trying indeed!
Fair enough, we will just have to agree to disagree.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Cathry - "if one wants to be taken seriously" Ha Ha Ha I'm not sure any of us actually take what is said here very seriously, do we?
After all, we are just airing our views here aren't we?
For example, I'd hate to think anyone payed a blind bit of attention to anything 'I' said. Come on now, what do I know!
Now if we had some of the 'Auld Guard' drop by and offer some advice, then I would sit up, pay attention & take notes, but here we're all just friends, sitting round a virtual reality session table, chewing the fat & chatting, as at a session.
We argue, disagree, & then, at the end of each thread we shake hands, agree to disagree & go on to the next one.
It'd be a poor session.org-er who bore a grudge from thread to thread.
No, I just regard this all as good clean fun, nothing more.
On the other hand, the Ego Nobs probably think they are preaching & dictating to us lesser mortals & formulating a new set of ten commandments! - just felt like a laugh!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yup. So-called "humor" and "just airing our views" are extremely common masks for aggression. Although "just venting" does seem to be more popular these days.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Why not make that the ultimate phrase in all threads? So as soon as we reckon we've chewed over something long enough, someone chips in with "Blame it on the dog" - &, end of story. On we go to the next one!
Of course it wouldn't be too long before some smart ass decided to try & start a new thread with that phrase!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
When you've played in sessions for 20 years the past self can sometimes haunt your present self. When I was a hack beginner I remember one of the advanced players that seemed bothered by my presence. Being totally clueless at that stage I was violating subtle session etiquette left and right and no doubt deserved the notoriety. I remember someone telling me at some stage that said advanced musician had given him copies of the famous Gort ‘91 tape and the Brid Harper/Dermot Byrne tape with specific instructions not to make copies for me. It appeared the said advanced player was protecting his repertoire from the corruption of a hack like me joining in. My friend, God bless him, made copies for me anyway.
Fast forward to a recent session where a beginner flute player is in attendance and he's tweaking my pet peeve by noodling on tunes he doesn't know. (he doesn't know many tunes) I am trying to contain myself when he says, "Jack, I recorded this tune you were playing last week and I learned it...” (he struggled to play a snippet and I recognized it as a favorite a Richie Dwyer tune) “will you play it please so I can play along?" Now mind you, even if he learned it -- playing one of my favorite tunes with him would be not unlike passing a very large kidney stone. I wanted a way out and was trying desperately to think of one when the very fellow who made the renegade copies from the censored tapes says to me, ”Come on Jack – play the tune.” I looked over at the beginner flute player and saw the ghost of my former self… I was being haunted… I played the tune.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ottery
Yes, because he was a family friend I have pictures on the wall that were taken at the time. People visiting me often think it's either me or my grandfather in the photo. Here's a photo where he discribes my great grandfather's sister, Jeanette.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Funny you should say that, David. No, it's not her, but she did often dress like a man. She was an outspoken lesbian and suffragette as well as an author.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Every time I log onto this site I see variations on the same post from "Indie Niall" and "Rab C Nesbitt" about players he clearly feels have no place in sessions he attends. Is this the same person known in SE London sessions as "The Metronome" because of his 'ability' to keep time?
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hey Snuff - "The Metronome" because of his 'ability' to keep time?" That reminds me of a guy who played in Bells, many years ago, who just couldn't tap his feet in time to the music he was playing. He would tap both feet too, & each one at a different rhythm to the other, & neither in time to the music. Boys-a-deer was that off-putting!
You should try it yourself - I think you'll find that it's almost impossible, after you have spent years tapping in time!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ptarmegan. After just now coming in from a select, non advertised, invite only, session at an undisclosed location, prior to which I'd been painting the outside of my house, most of the weekend, I've just gone down this thread, and discovered the other side to someone I had previously considered as a verbose, but harmless chap.
Not only have you been personally abusive to me, but you have concocted lies based on your suppositions wrt my posts. My position remains. And that is simply, I prefer playing with players who're at around the same level or slightly better, or slightly newer. Anyone who knows me personally and knows my tunes and so on, would attest to that.
To be honest, I couldn't even really be bothered defending myself, I'll just let my track record speak for itself, both as a person and as a musician. I've had a few spats with Dow, maybe Michael, Will, Zina, and a few others, but we all do that. I actually look forward to a reply from The Dow while we're in the middle of some double act tussle. I've said before, though the thin sections of our personnae which come through on this site are probably never true reflections of the whole person, I do try to compensate for the thin slice by being 100% honest. And I think Dow is also. But what comes across with you, Ptarm, is:
Jumping to a conclusion.
Forming a black or white opinion based on conclusion hastily jumped at.
Having formed that opinion, bolstering it with lies (formed, of course, from ill-thought-through "facts".)
Then, consolidating your position by making big bold assertions then challenging everyone else here to...tell us a story as good as yours...give an opinion as strong as yours....and so on.
I mean.....what can I say?....*sigh*.....you really want to look at what you've become. Surely you can't be proud of what you wrote about me above? You actually left the real world and started making things up. I'm being honest, man to man with you. You really need to get a grip on reality. I'm not joking.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The question is not actually a logical one, so there cannot be a good answer. There's no such thing as "too" much session etiquette, only what works for a session or any given group of people. It's like being pregnant; either you are or you aren't.
I've said it before -- there's an etiquette for inviting your friends over for a casual night of pizza or to be invited over by a friend for a casual night of pizza. "Etiquette" does not necessarily mean "stuffy" or "snobby" or whatever.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think what he Indie was saying, or at least how Ptarmigan was interpreting it, was that session etiquette was dictating that he sometimes had to "pander" or not shush up some beginner players, or something like that. And he felt that being polite was holding his session back from achieving the musical heights that it could. Or maybe I'm wrong on all counts here.
Indie made a very heartfel post concerning Ptarmigan, with several points, but I am still not certain of what he was trying to say at the beginning.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
*sigh* If the etiquette within a certain group of people who session together is that beginners are encouraged at the cost of the overall music, then it is not "pandering" to encourage them, because it's a given.
If, however, the etiquette of the group demands that beginners are not encouraged in the slightest and the quality of the music overall must be considered first, then pandering is equally then out of the question, because it simply wouldn't happen.
This is, of course, a very black and white viewpoint in a very shades of gray kind of world, and every group must figure out on their own the practical sides of communicating their group etiquette and standards to new people joining their group.
I suspect that most of our sessions fall somewhere along the middle spectrums of all this, of course.
Anyway, there's simply no such thing as *too* much session etiquette, because all there is is someone in a group erroneously deciding that there are some bits of etiquette in place that aren't in fact in place for everyone across the board, including those new people.
Which is one of the reasons why politics and planning weddings are often like trying to herd cats.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well done, Zina. At last, we have a reasonable and considered response to this topic.
Actually, we've discussed this subject in various guises before and it seems fairly straightforward to me. Of course, it's nice for experienced musicians to encourage beginners but they shouldn't necessarily expect it. Nor should beginners or newcomers necessarily expect to visit a session and expect to take part. In most cases, they will be welcome, but they should always be good mannered enough to ask-no matter what the standard is! The good musicians always(or they should) do this as well.
It ought to be fairly obvious to anyone whether a session is private, exclusive, cliquish, or whatever(I'm not suggesting all these adjectives mean the same thing) and visitors should have enough common sense not to take part. If in doubt, they can still ask or they might be invited.
Having said that, there's no need for rudeness. A polite explanation should be enough. Unless, of course, the person won't "take a telling" and then it is justified.
Finally, I've been in several sessions which "have soared" beyond my ability. They don't necessarily start like that but I have enough sense and manners to "take a back seat" when this happens or even give it up if it's needed. I certainly wouldn't do anything to interrupt the flow of such a session, whether by playing badly or attempting to change its format.
Yes, I've gone to new sessions and have been encouraged to start a set. Sometimes I will but, quite often(as I once intimated on another thread), I will politely decline as I don't want to spoil "the flow of the music".
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Indie, looks like I touched a wee nerve there, laddie! So maybe you do have a conscience after all?
You said - "You actually left the real world and started making things up." Hey, you don't actually believe that this yellow page is the 'real world' do you?
Come on now, if you start a thread with an outrageous statement, exaggerating your point, you must then expect the obvious consequences, i.e. others to argue that point against you, in a similarly exaggerated fashion.
So please don't go all soft on us now.
I'm afraid it's far too late for that, me old bucko, for our positions at this late stage are very clear, aren't they?
When you scrape away all the banter & craic down through this thread, the bottom line is, some folks think it's OK to be rude sometimes & some folks think you should always strive to be mannerly & polite.
I suspect that part of the reason for many of us here having such polarised opinions, is that we are all attending very different types of sessions.
Now, for example, the sessions up here are fairly quiet affairs, with the same core number of musicians each week, perhaps 4 or 5 at the smallest session & as many as 9 or 10 at the largest, but nearly always the same faces.
During the summer months we often get a new face or two drifting in, & we always welcome new musicians with open arms, for, good or bad, they change the session from the norm, & are a breath of fresh air.
They are either very good, in which case we talk about them for months after & hope they return, or, if they are not up to our standard, we certainly are not rude to them & chase them away, but rather encourage them, safe in the knowledge that they won't be there the following week.
But even if they were, we'd either learn to get along with them or kindly explain that they didn't fit in.
The only time I can remember someone falling into the latter catagory was when this Jazz guitar player appeared.
Now he whizzed up & down the fretboard playing all the right chords - but, sadly, in all the 'wrong' places!
It actually sounded horrendous & upset everyone that night & we all agreed that if he showed up again the following week, I would have to have a quiet word with him.
Fortunately, he never returned.
But hey, it wasn't the end of the world, we only had one session slightly ruined, & at the end of the day, it's all part of life's rich tapestry, isn't it.
You win some & you lose some.
Now I suspect some of you folks above, who have an opposing view to mine, & who are in Indie's 'OK to be rude sometimes' camp, actually have a very different local session experience to mine.
Could it be that you guys perhaps have lots of different faces appearing each week, perhaps lots of Guitar thrashers & Bodhran bashers who are not sympathetic to your sound?
If so, I can see how your patience might wear a little thin when it came to the question of how you react to their presence!
See Indie, I do have a soft squishy side to my nature. I'm not the heartless monster you perceive from my scriblings, well. not unless there's a full mooooooooooon
TaoCat - you say Indie "made a very heartfel post" Och, don't be fooled & taken in by his latest ploy, sure, he's only looking for the 'sympathy vote' now!
Anyway, I hope the above helps to explain, at least my position in all of this?
What worries me though is, I have this image of Indie painting his house, with this small Japanese guy beside him, directing his brush strokes, ........................
Anyone know what colour belt Indie wears?
P.S. Wish Zina wouldn't keep going on about that brilliant Pizza she gets over there.........slabber........drool.....................
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
No, I see his point, but I am far from agreeing with it. I'm with you on this. I think sometimes people get so into the music that they forget how they sound, so to speak. But I've given up arguing it here. Glad to see you doing it, though I'll be blamed if I can figure how you get time to play.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
There ye go, Ptarm. Lying again. I've never advocated it's ok to be rude. As I said you jump to conclusions then make up lies to bolster your Prejudices.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yes John J, after a long, polarised debate, it is only natural that we end up with a sensible, reasoned comment or two at the end, just to sooth the frayed nerves, if nothing else.
- & yeah, I've been at those kinda sessions you talk of, in Miltown, where they start off grand & then soar out of sight & you know you are out of your depth, so rather than hold on to a seat which another expert could make use of, you go & stand at the back.
I don't think there is any shame in that, just common sense, & a case of putting the session first.
In places like Miltown, there's a lot to be said for just listening for a while, to see what level the players at a session are at, before just grabbing a seat.
I'm sure we've all seen the fool jump in, only to be left standing, looking a total prawn, as they don't actually know any of the tunes being played.
I saw a player do this in a Dublin Bar one night.
She waltzed in to this bar, saw the session of 'heads' & loudly announced to one & all who she was & what she played & promptly produced her instrument & 'stood' beside the musicians table.
For the next 15/20 minutes she stood looking more & more cringingly embarrassed - then packed up quietly, & left.
If only she'd taken stock & listened first, when she first came in!
It was actually old John Kelly, Bobby Casey, Joe Ryan etc, - some of the Auld Guard.
Fortunately, we had enough wit to just sit quietly at the next table all night just listening to these old guys play their odd tunes & unusual versions.
Now, I don't consider that these old buys were actually rude to her, for after all, she hadn't actually asked if she could join their session, & they hadn't asked her to join it, so they just carried on doing what they had been doing, which was playing some great old, obscure tunes.
It was one of those occasions where it would have been very bad manners to actually tape the session, certainly without asking first - so we didn't.
We just enjoyed listening.
Sorry if my wee stories bore you Indie - I'm sure your not alone.
But I'm afraid, at my time of life, all I have left, are my memories....................
Hey, your not the only one who can try for the 'sympathy' vote!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ottery. You say it's OK to be rude to someone whose "manners" are deliberately bad. And you emphasize 'manners', not 'playing ability'. The people I am often rude to are the ones whose bad manners are exposed by the combination of awful playing and their failure to realize that their playing is awful. Some times, and I say sometimes because I always try polite first, being rude to them is the only way.
White Grouse. You call me an ego nob and I held my hands up and accepted it. I apoligised for any name calling I sank to and you retort with calling me a nazi. " Anyway, doesn't this Ego Nob attitude just smack a little of 'the master race' mentality?". Whose being nice here?
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ooops, another cross posting.
"....blamed if I can figure how you get time to play..." - Yeah TaoCat, the answers easy - I'm off work just now with a lousy Flu (more sympathy votes - pleeeez)
Don't take it to heart Indie - you win some & you lose some!
It's not the first time I too, (yes, even me! ) have made a total eejit of myself here on this mustard canvas, & I'm sure it won't be the last.
Don't worry, if you arrive at our session next week, I will be polite & offer you a seat, & I might even buy you a pint (not an easy thing for a scotsman to say!), but don't ask me to soar - 'fraid I just have no head for heights!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
It's not a case of taking anything to heart or winning or losing. I quite simply do not wish to waste my time engaged in a discussion with someone who clearly resorts to deceit in order to steamroadroll over any other dissenting voice. If you ask me, and this will be my last comment on this thread, *that* is a tactic reminiscent of the Nazis, not Michael's comments.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
One other practical reason to be polite is that being rude sometimes leads to a loss of blood, teeth and dignity. Especially in places where alcohol is consumed by people with delicate egos.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
JohnJ, There may be another thread, but it won’t have as much value for money as this one!
In the space of three and a half days, we’ve covered: turgid pointlessness, flogging poor old donkey tunes, self-confessed soarers, tactics reminiscent of the Nazis, Liberated Musicians, Ar*e Holes, kissing and fondling between beginners and advanced players, pandering to learners, admittedly silly poetry, flyboy sessions, Hippy sh*te, withering contempt, Bad Manners & unsporting conduct, Egan's polka in E min, Ghastly Hypocrites, the master race, and the new and wonderful EGO NOBS. In addition to this, the defense and prosecution have between them manged to invoke the following witnesses: Charlie Piggot, Johnny Moynahan, Frankie Gavin, Charlie Lennon, Robert Deniro, Jerry Hall, Tom Wolf, Maurice Lennon & Paul Roche, an outspoken lesbian and suffragette, Robin Williams, Mark Twain, and Walt Whitman!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well said, Ottery.
And something else can be said from this thread: it was certainly an interesting distraction from a 200-page transcript having to do with an insurance dispute (bleeah!). My job as a court reporter takes me into some new and different arenas, but this wasn't one of those times. And, yes, I got the (expletive) thing out.
I suspect this is a true all-purpose thread that served many functions we don't even realize yet.
<gggg>
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hey Viz Top Tippers !
Find you get annoyed with Ptarmigan’s rubbish, and threads
sometimes take too long to read ?
Easy ! Simply look at the end of a post and if the author is
Ptarmigan then ignore.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Oooooooooo! Well, come on now BegF, don't just sit there on the fence, go on, tell us who you really side with on this debate?
Point of order - my last '8' that's EIGHT postings have been no more than '2', that's TWO lines!
Your last one was 5, that's FIVE - so Na Na ne Na Na
OK So I'm stuck here in bed with the Flu, & nothing better to do than communicate with you folks on the Mustard Page, but come on, don't pick on me, I'm just a wee fella after all! I may take the huff & never write here again! Boo Hoo...............
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
O K! I know when I'm not wanted. But you'll be sorry. There'll come a day when you'll say to yourself, hmm wonder what old Ptarmi would think of this, or that...........................................sob........
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
You needn't think a simple smile's going to make me feel better BegF, - after what you said! I'd expect, at the very least, a box of chocolates, a bunch of flowers or a copy of Danu's latest CD.
And as for McGregor, he needn't think I've forgotten he was thinking of moving to Scotland! Hah! He should bear in mind that Scotia is my ane hameland & it's full of clans who are sympathetic to my cause - & one word from me & they'll come down from the glens to visit a viscious pestilence upon his person!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
While your at it Button, see if you can find out how many postings the longest thread ever had on the Mustard Page, cause this particular one feels like it's heading for a record!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
It would, of course, have gone on much longer, but some people started being rude to me & chased me away & I thought ye all clearly understood that I was the only one who was allowed to be cheeky around here!
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The word "Nazi" has been used 53 times. To answer your query, Ptarmigan, the longest thread was just over 400 replies and it was on a thread started by yours truly. I had posed the taboo statement/question that was not unlike pouring soy sauce on the open wound of the collective consciousness of the yella board; "Sessions ARE public performances?" Then on another thread I started our lovely smart-alecky Canadian contributor, Kerri, unearthed the contentious topic once again. That thread ended up going to over 400 as well.
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"too much of anything can be detrimental." Don't know if that's quite true - 'that'? I mean, give me too much nooky, every time! Now, perhaps - "far back in the depths of time" people couldn't handle too much of it, but I'd say a lot of us fit folks are well able for it now!
Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Maybe sometimes sessions flow better when good players don't have to pander to learners or lesser players, for just to be nice and keep them on board. For then when they don't turn up, you discover you have wings again and soar above the nonsense, and the turgid pointlessness of playing, or flogging, poor old donkey tunes time after time. And the feeling of liberation is...brill. Like what sessions should be about.
SOOoooOO? CAN *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I suppose it really depends how big a SNOB you are?
Just remember, we were all "learners or lesser players" at one time & delighted, when we managed to find a civilised session that wasn't full of 'Ar*e Holes' who only wanted to soar like butterflies all the time!
Fraid the 'Donkeys' are in fact the so called 'Liberated Musicians' who have no time for learners & lesser players!
Can't think of anything more 'Turgidly Pointless' than being in a session with self-confessed soarers!
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The whole point is that we shouldn't need to have any session etiquette. Session etiquette is only needed when people lose their sense of common decency and good manners.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Check out Indie Niall's profile! It explains everytthing except why I hit the 't' twice.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hmmm... I wonder which hand he uses.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
IMHO, it comes down to etiquette- or what we should have learned as children. If you are the new person, you should be respectful of the sessioners who have been there before you.
To me, this means keeping a low profile, or as we say, "flying under the radar", until you are familiar with the expectations of the group. I tell my students to add to but never to subtract from the group.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well, there are different types of session with different levels.
If you are a beginner (or your level is not that high no matter how long you've been playing for), and you go to a higher level session, you know that you are going to be listening more that playing.
I normally play what I feel like and not what beginners want to play because that's BORING, and getting bored is not the point of the session.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
If I had a session to go to so regularly that I could recognize "good players" from "learners" or "lesser players" I would be so delighted that I would play whatever tunes at whatever speed anyone wanted to play them. "ike what sessions should be about" to me is playing tunes with people who want to play tunes. Flogging donkey tunes? What are donkey tunes? I'm sure I made a donkey of myself at sessions when I was a learner and a lesser player. I never felt like I spoiled the experience for anyone else though. But maybe that's just the kind of session I was able to find at the time -- one that welcomed people who were learners and lesser players because the fun is sharing the music. I'm with Ptarmigan on this.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Why are you asking us? Here was me thinking you knew everything and everyone, Danny.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think we should all love one another and give little gifts such as flowers and sweets to everyone at sessions. And there should definitely be a lot more kissing and fondling between beginners and advanced players.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Cammy
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
O K Indie. You've had your little joke & now it's time to come out of that cupboard & confess to this wind-up! We know that nobody could, in their right mind, really mean this thread! Ho Ho, very funny, right that's enough!
Oh Yeah, & I'm with Cammy on the 'more fondling' thing!
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
When we talk about etiquette - do we really mean "good manners"? Cos if we do, then we should say so.
Etiquette is "the right way of doing it" whereas "good manners" means treating people with respect.
Manners are inclusive, etiquette is exclusive.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hi Showaddydadito, really succinctly put!
From reading all the postings above (apart from bringing a lot of joy to a wet Gloucestershire Friday morning) I think all the soarers have been well and truly brought down to earth!
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I'd say we wedgie Showdaddy....but in a mannerly way, using all the proper etiquette
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by BegF
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
There's no need for session etiquette. A bit of manners covers it all.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by John McCartin
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Since when was "pandering to learners and lesser players" or "playing donkey tunes" part of session ettiquette, anyway? It's nice to be inclusive but visitors to a session shouldn't expect this. Surely, it's also good ettiquette for them not to expect the "better" and more experienced players to pander to them. By all means, they should go along but "listen and learn", if they don't know all the tunes.
Having said all that, most decent human beings(as opposed to players) will surely want to give a newcomer a chance but this doesn't mean that they have to descend to a lowest common denominator. They could either include the occasional well known set or offer an opportunity for the visitor to start a tune. This only need take up a few minutes and then everybody's happy.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
So you're a snob as well as a racist person, John?
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Oh look - an Australian. I suppose we'd better be kind to the poor creature.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
This could be an entertaining thread to watch - it has the potential to become quite heated. I've booked a ring-side seat here and I've got my bag of popcorn and ice cream in my sweaty paws.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ron P
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
So have I.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
So Danny, behind the gruff persona lies an incorrigable snob(!)
Soar my arse! (Geddit!)
It sounds like you wrote that on the high after getting back from a 'better-than-usual' session. Sessions can get 'bogged down' sometimes, but sessions are sessions. If you really want to play the stuff you want to play all the time you have to turn it into a gig, which can also become tedious, because then you have more of a responsibility to play and not slack.
Most (not all) of our sessions at the moment are heading in the slacking direction, with a lot of chat, the odd impromptu lesson, some nurturing of new/diffident players. If I want to spend a night going for it hammer and tongs, I go to The Herschell and hang on to the fast boys' shirt tails for a thrilling ride(!)
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yeah, you got it Mark. But it's nice when it happens at your own session.
What were the first 2 words of my initial post?
"Maybe sometimes."
Claro?
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Anyway, it's worth it getting some abuse from you lot, just to imagine Dow going purple and apoplectic, nose pressed against the monitor screaming obscenities at me.
:~}
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Haven't been to the Herschell yet, Ottery, but I've been to other sessions with some of the flyboys who play there and it is bloody thrilling.
Haven't actually *played* much with them, mind you; since arriving in London I've discovered the number of tunes I know is woefully inadequate, but I think I would have been mortified if they had - grudgingly or otherwise - toned everything down, played simpler, more well known tunes, in order to accomodate me.
To sit in on a flyboy session is better than a concert, imho. The players are riffing off've each other, unscripted, unrehearsed, and there's some great wit and magic in what comes out of it. I guess this is a 'high level session' thing. I really don't understand why people knock 'em. But I've realised they are a different beast to the regular sort of session.
Still, there's reason to aspire to the heights of a flyboy session: They seem to be the only ones where the drinks are free these days!
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Q
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
You know perfectly well what I was saying, Dow.
Good manners, as Dave suggests is very important. However, this should apply to everybody at a session from the beginners all the way up to the "big boys".
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Oh, and BTW, I don't remember mentioning "speed" as a prerquisite for this so-called soaring.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
No Danny, it was me who brought in the contentious issue of speed. It just happens that most of the better sessions I go to are a notch or two faster than the ‘mixed’ affairs. (that isn’t to say that I think all good sessions have to be hell for leather – my very favourite session at the moment is small, with lively music played at a moderarate clip)
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well, I'm with Naill on this one. But then again there can often be room for both. The way it kind of goes where I like to play is, yes, it's taken down a notch at the beginning. There maybe bits of impromptu tune swapping, the newbies get to play a set or two. It's all nice and polite etc. I like to play some common reels and jigs at a snails pace occasionally. Then the anti gets upped and if you can't keep up, the message is quite clear, don't spoil it.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think it depends on why you are having the session in the first place.
There's nothing wrong with setting up a session of very agile players...but I would think this would do better as a closed session or a house session, and just invite the ones you want to come.
If you are having session to pass the music on, to learn as well as teach, and you are having it in a public setting, then you must expect there will be some players who need some slower tunes.
That said, I've rarely seen a session get too bogged down by beginners, because if someone starts up a fast tune they usually won't even try to play along. So this isn't a problem in our sessions.
--James
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by beardflute
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Look, I'm not in denial (Oh..maybe I am....)
Anyway may I remind the 2 Marks of some old threads so that they may graciously dismount any moral high horses:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/7333
and
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1380/comments#comment23013
cheers guys.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
This is all so very mannerly. I like to see a little gentle back-pedalling.
Hey BegF - I gave up wearing grunties a few years back, so it's a brave man that puts his hand inside my waistband.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I thought for a minute that these "sawing" sessions refered to the fiddlers.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Depends how you pronounce it, Geoff. But I bet *you* prefer soaring sessions to snoring sessions. Or incremental ones as opposed to excremental...or just mental...
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I don't think anyone should be pandered to. Check to see if you are up to the level of the session. Either you can add something to the session or not. Listen first right??
That said, I am attending (and hopefully playing ) my first Donkey session tomorrow. It's the first meeting of a slow session, so I think I should be able to play something.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think all have to keep in mind that there's always somebody who plays better and feel pretty bored playing with you. Never know when a Menuhin or FiddlinHendrix comes on stage. Never fly too high, the air gets thin.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Rufsen
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
unless you have a spaceship, then you can fly as high as you like! Wait, where does this analogy stop? I can never tell.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Q
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Get off my moral high-horse?
Are you mad?
Normally I’m in the position of having to claw and grovel my way back from some position I’ve put myself in by hurling unnecesarily vile and sneering slander at some hapless contibutor to this site.
It's nice to watch someone else trying to dig themselves out of a hole!
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I like a good closed session now and again, but I also think it's important to keep up the standard in a particular public place. This is not for the punters of course, I have nothing but withering contemp for them, but to keep the standard as a kind of homage to the reputation of a place that will always be bigger than yourself. If you want visiting musicians of a high standard to visit your session, then you owe it to yourself and them to keep the biginners in the background. I know this sounds harsh, but it's for the best in the end
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ah - Michael, that explains why the punters in Embra all have a withered look.
Driving Back Beginners with a Stick - title for a tune?
Mark - my old family motto "It's tough at the top, but the view is wonderful"
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
What hole, ottery? There, michael has just explained it. Keep the standards high (or as high as you're able anyway.)
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The fact that 'michael has just explained it' doesn't necessarily make it so ...
Not that I particularly disagree with you.
or him, come to think of it.
I like the idea of 'keeping up the standard in a particular public place', though in the long term, this might be dependant on encouraging a bit of new 'homegrown' blood, so a bit of 'pandering' could be useful.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Pandaring? Is that when someone 'eats flutes and leaves'?
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Q
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ha ha!, Q.
OK, Mark. Being nice, maybe, but not as someone said above, pandering. I think that's what we do in general anyway.
Just to repeat the first 2 words of my initial post...read my lips:
M***y s***t***s
(like that bank advert "brand new customers only!")
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
sorry that should be spelt: M***e
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Mebbe?
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ach the oul' session etiquette thingy. The wasy I see it is: if you can play along and enjoy yourself while doing so then play along. If you can't at all, don't bother. If you're nearly there, play quietly.
If you're already a regular it's nice to invite people to start one themselves but you should stick to the level you're comfortable with for the rest of the time, I reckon.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The wasy? What the hell's that. I shouldn't have so many "refreshing" Friday lunches I suppose.
I meant "the way"
C
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think anyone who knows that they are such a good a player that consorting with lesser mortals in a public session will be irritating and counterproductive should feel free to stay home and play with themselves.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
And I thought that was your Belfasht accent, Conán.
Although I came in after the session last night high on a good session as you said Ottery, and also with a few beers on me, I do remember I was careful to preface the post with "maybe sometimes", cos I had a fair idea I'd have all The Session.org hounds baying for my blood. Most of the time beginners are more than tolerated, but it was good just to get to somewhere else, sessionwise.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well let's face it, few of us are ever going to come close to the level of your Tommy Peoples and John McSherrys. By the way, I know there are people on this site who already are astounding musicians...
But it's nice to play in a session where everyone is at more or less the same level. No inferiority complexes or conversely choosing tunes that are overplayed.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I agree heartily with Mr Gill here that the standard should be upheld. If you have nothing but slow sessions in town, where is anyone going to go to hear the real thing? Or play in the real thing?
And yeah, what Conan said there with people around the same level playing together without thinking about it too much. Just playing tunes.
Ettiquette can be maintained along with a standard. Passing along the tradition should be done in real-time. A session is a session, not a lesson or a workshop.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Jode
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"I don't think anyone should be pandered to. Check to see if you are up to the level of the session. Either you can add something to the session or not. Listen first right?"
Michael puts it in terms here that a lot of people who are at an intermediate or beginning level might consider to be harsh or anti-social. People who have yet to have overcome the obstacles of their chosen instrument might feel excluded if they can’t play at the session’s established level. I was asking Charlie Lennon one night about his Sessions Etiquette page he published in his tune book and he said the same thing but more gently. He basically said that the bottom line is to observe the session first so that if you choose to join in you won't interrupt the flow of the music. I think the mistake a lot of people make about a session they visit is that they somehow expect the session to cater to their needs and desires -- and if it doesn't -- something's wrong with it. In my opinion this is like looking at the session from the backside -- all you'll see is the sh*te. This goes both ways of course; when more advanced players visit a session where the players are at mid-level they shouldn’t interrupt the flow there either.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Actually Jack, you quoted me, and I am a beginner at the fiddle and this music. I don't consider this harsh at all. We have a responsibility to put in the time necessary before heading into a session with gear in hand. I've been taking lessons for about a year and a half to two. I know I am not up to participating in a standard session. I'd rather listen then jump in and ruin the evening for those who have done their time in lessons, easy tunes, etc. Participation in a session will be a reward for the slaving away.
Deb.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hey Jode,
I'm genuinely puzzled by your statement, "Passing along the tradition should be done in real-time. A session is a session, not a lesson or a workshop."
What does the first sentence mean (i.e. what is 'real-time' - what is a session if not real-time - Dream time maybe? - Dow? Isn't that some sort of aboriginal thing?)?
And why can't a session be whatever the participants want it to be?
I do quite like the idea of separating the two things if possible (There used to be a great Sunday afternoon session in Oxford which was preceded by an hour's 'masterclass' with the lead fiddler, Danny Lenehan - unfortunately dead now, both Danny and the session). Yes, it's greart to spend an evening with your mates, playing the stuff you like to play. But sometimes, particularly if things are a bit quiet, and it's that sort of session, it can be nice to have someone teach you a tune or some instrumental skills. Why not? Why do things have to be so black and white?
And DebWah. I can't believe you want to be a goody-goody THAT much! Sneak into Jack's session one night, whip out the old fiddle and give'em a blast of Egan's Polka, then disappear back into the night!
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yes
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
No
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Unseen, you're a dark one,
"Yes?"
I think you've hit the nail on the head there.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
But as for you Al,
Phooeey!
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Exactly Jack.
I've recently (over the last couple of years) encountered the species of learner who wants everything slowed down to *their* pace, wants *their* sets to be played, etc., and frequently, and wouldn't be shy about telling us. So it has to be said a breath of fresh air was breathed in the absence.
"Ask not what your session can do for you, but what you can do for your session."
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ottery, it's been so long since I played Egan's, I'd come off worse than I really am!
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"Actually Jack, you quoted me" -- oops (embarrassed emoticon)
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
We should always be encouraging and polite to newcomers. But I will admit that sometimes, the right thing to do is to politely encourage them to just listen for a while, to practice at home more, to find another venue for their talents, or to take lessons.
As my minister sometimes says, especially when talking about abusive relationships, loving your neighbor doesn't mean that you should let them turn you into their doormat!
It is all about striking the proper balance.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
We play Egan's polka in E min BTW, Deb. Hope that's your key too when you drop in. But don't listen to Ottery, there'll be no reason to sneak away.
Even though I advocate the session sensibilities I stated above, we welcome all levels at our little tiny session*.
*Provided no one tries to take it over, noodle, play tunes they don't know, etc. etc.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well gee Jack, thanks for the invite. I'll start practicing Egan's in Emin.
Sensibilities aside, I usually don't mind making a jack, er ottery, er donkey's a$$ of myself, but for some reason, I really would rather do that in circumstances other than a session.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ottery, no, it's not black and white. I agree that there are various ways to have a great session. No session is really the same, is it? But I am not one of those "it's all good" kinda guys.
The real time thing made sense to me at the time I wrote it. What I meant was that I don't think that slow sessions or learning sessions are in "real time". That they are a means to an end. And that end is to play tunes at dance speed with a nice rhythm and tasty notes. And that is what you do, in real time, at a session.
I dunno. It's Friday, and time to go home for cocktail hour.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Jode
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hi Jode,
Thanks for that - I had what you said completely arse-about-face! I thought you meant that the tradition should be passed on at learning sessions, and that THEY were real time.
Duh!
Danny,
I must confess I haven't come across 'the species of learner who wants everything slowed down to *their* pace, wants *their* sets to be played, etc., and frequently, and wouldn't be shy about telling us."
That might get a bit wearing after a while(!)
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Our example of that species isn't nearly as bad as I portrayed, I have to admit. Just occasional flashes of that type of controlfreakery. Enough not to miss them, shall we say. Maybe I was being harsh, but it was evident that last night was a lot "lighter", for want of a better word.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
And remember, whoever, above, was trying to argue that black is white, be careful you don't get killed at a zebra crossing.
# Posted on September 30th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The thing is (from my experience), if you have a few beginners at your session and you only play what they know all the time to make everyone join in, the level of the session is never going to get better, because then you are acommodating beginners in their laziness, you will play the same tunes week after week and they will learn nothing, there will be no challenge, and after a while it will become tedious.
So it's ok to play a beginners set once in a while, but don't let them take it for granted, make them work harder!
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by Beheader
It's time to NAME & SHAME!
Wow! A lot has been said since I first made my own views known, quite plainly I think, at the top of the page!
Anyway, "A' wanna tell you a story" (Who said that?)
At our Thursday night session this week we were delighted to see a new face, & instrument, join us, & a BIG thanks to 'session.org', cause I actually bumped into our new friend on this very site earlier in the week & had promptly invited him along to our weekly little gathering.
Now, at this session we have a Whistle player who comes along now & then, but who only knows a few tunes, & plays them fairly slowly, & fairly steadily.
Anyway, he was there on Thurday night as we got started & so, keen to get playing, he kicked things of with his usual jigs & hornpipes & we always happily play along.
It's no big deal really.
He's a grand fellow & it's not a bad way to start things off, with a few nice, steady pieces.
In fact it is probably a good discipline.
Means we can ease ourselves gradually into things, loosen up our joints & check our tuning.
However, this guy knows his limitations & is quite happy to play his 2 or 3 sets & then sit back with his pint & listen.
He may throw in another 1 or 2 tunes before he goes, but whether he does or not, that's him happy.
Anyway, back to the new guy - who I won't name for fear of ruining his reputation. Suffice to say he plays the (proper!) Concertina. He He
He arrived just as we were getting started, & politely (I was impressed) stood at the back until someone spotted his case & then we naturally invited him in, to join us.
Now, as we found out later, this young fellow is a superb musician, with loads of great tunes, exciting sets & skills & technique that have left me thinking I should probably convert my own Concertina to a flower pot!
Anyway, as he sat down, our old friend, 'the Whistle player' launched into something like Harvest & Bluehill, followed by a couple of bog standard jigs at a VERY VERY leisurely pace.
Our new player quite happily joined in with these, which were at almost funeral march pace, without batting an eyelid & so earned himself even more 'Brownie Points'!
However, as the night wore on, & the pace picked up, he demonstrated his great reportoire time & time again & there were some real ding dong sets between himself & our multi A. I. champ player - jaw dropping stuff.
Yet, these two, even later on, were quite happy to slow things down again, every now & then, for some leasurely paced easy tunes.
So all this, I hope, goes to show how a session can, & in my book should, strive to cater for all levels of player.
It also shows too, how simply that can be achieved between musicians who have perhaps never met before!
If your session isn't doing that, then it is surely not a 'session' at all, in the true sense of the word.
In which case it is more of an ego trip, more a case of "Oooo look at me, am I not simply wonderful to watch & listen to" - "Oh & by the way, if you can't keep up - then just feck off, we don't really care!"
Those 'non-sessions' must surely do more harm than good, for anyone seeing these 'Ego Nobs' at work must surely be completely turned off by them.
Wherase, at a real session, the warm & friendly atmosphere, which can at times be slow, steady & easy going, but can also quite easily enjoy, & demonstrate, short or long passages of blistering brilliance from it's more talented players, is surely a wonderful ambassador for ITM & must, by it's very nature, be responsible for encouraging so many people to have a go.
As was said above, etiquette shouldn't be a difficult concept to understand for it is quite simply about good manners.
Why is it so difficult for some folks to grasp that simple concept of - "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you"
Now - have a look back up this page & see how many 'EGO NOBS' you can spot.
It's time to NAME & SHAME!
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ptarmigan, I think you’ve put you’re finger on it. Etiquette is the beginner’s responsibility, too.
I play with a group of musicians much more experienced than me. They’ve played together for years, and I’m picking up their repertoire fairly steadily, but sometimes we’ll come to a tune that I don’t have down yet, or don’t know at all, and I’ll sit back and listen. When they see I’m not playing, they’ll actually stop and try to teach me the tune. I have to assure them that I’m perfectly happy just listening.
On a certain level it’s not etiquette, it’s selfishness. I love this music and to sit in the midst of all that beautiful noise as they strut their stuff is really indescribable.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by fidkid
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
OK then, I'm an "ego nob" then. I don't play for the better of humanity. There is nothing altruistic in my enjoyment of the tunes. OK so the greatest chunk of the enjoyment is playing with people, but that's people who can play. And I know that in order to do that you have to sometimes accommodate people who can't play "yet". But the goal is clear, enjoy yourself playing to the best of your ability.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The trouble with etiquette is that after all these years I still get confused about which way to pass the port.
Trevor
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by lazyhound
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
or the joint
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
No, *I* am egg nog. Hear me roar.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by Q
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
btw, clockwise/anti-clockwise, doesn't matter. Just as long as you don't hog the damn thing, waving it around as you get caught up in a stoner-liloquay.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by Q
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Port was always passed clockwise and should be in a round bottomed decanter which meant that it couldn't sit on the table anywhere other than its round wooden stand which was normally in front of the male host.
I have always preferred the normal flat bottomed one because I like to leave it in front of me, I've always been very fond of Vintage Port and am lucky not to have Gout like some old drinking buddies..........
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
We had a nasty blow pass through last night, wasn’t fit for man nor dog. I couldn’t get down the hill to the wine shop and was stuck at home with nothing but an RL Buller & Sons tawny. Ah well, any port in a storm.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by fidkid
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"Anyway, "A' wanna tell you a story" (Who said that?)"
I think it was a man named Jed.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Greetings:
I don't think it's "etiquette" per se that causes problems in sessions. I think it's politics, a feeling that because of seniority or who you know, some of us are more equal than others even if we're all about the same ability. I absolutely abominate the, "That's MY seat" mentality.
I don't make the effort to go to one session I enjoy as frequently as I might because that spirit is definitely present. I once sat down near the front to get out of a server's line of travel and was rewarded by a downright angry and authoritarian, "Don't sit there" from the anchor. I also belong among the legions of SF Bay Area musicians who completely avoid another well-known session led by a member of a famous musical family because this mindset is absolutely out of control. One of the anchors is notoriously nasty. IMO having her around in that position after all these years reflects badly on the general leadership and judgment of the group. (An exampleof her behavior: shrieking, "Go home and practice" to a newbie.)
Session etiquette can make everything go more smoothly for everyone and help all of us have a better time. I really don't think too many rules are the problem in most cases. It's the attitude in which they're communicated.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Shay is a friend of mine, and I think his sessions are great for people at all levels. His control of the crowd is amazing the way he can quiet them down for the singers. I don't think anyone would take his seat at the session though, and he probably prefers his co-hosts sit next to him.
At the sessions I host with my pals across the Bay in SF, I insist we sit next to each other as well. This isn’t because we’re “authoritarians,” but rather because we just want to be able to hear each other -- that's why we anchor the session together. If someone who's visiting the session sits next to me on the side where my co-host sits -- I'll point it out and ask them to make room. There's nothing "authoritarian" about that, it's just session logistics.
I learned about this the hard way back in 1990 in Galway. I arrived at a session hosted by Charlie Piggot. I was sitting on the window bench with Charlie on one side and my wife on the other. A man came in with a bouzouki and motioned that he would like to have my seat. I said to him that I wanted to remain next to my wife. Charlie said, "Come on, we'll squeeze you in." and the man replied, "That's ok Charlie -- I know my place." and he sat on the other side of the fire. After about 2 minutes I realized it was Johnny Moynahan -- the other host. I felt like the clueless yank that I was, but quietly got up, apologized and switched seats with Johnny. It was a great night of tunes once I got over my embarrassment.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"Etiquette is the beginner’s responsibility, too."
KFG's complete rules of etiquette:
1. Thou shalt not be too annoying
2. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed
I've always found that covers it about 99% of the time.
"*I* am egg nog."
Coo coo ca choo.
KFG
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
>1. Thou shalt not be too annoying
2. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed<
Works for me.
I always try to keep in mind the unfortunate fact that before I knew what I was doing, I probably tromped on every possible etiquette rule at least once in complete innocence/ignorance.
# Posted on October 1st 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yep, Cathryn, didn't we all. But most newbies are given normal levels of humility, thankfully, but also thankfully normal levels of "recovery after embarrassing yourself" hormone, because as we know, most newbies and old dogs are really just normal people -- but with a passion (and let's face it, you wouldn't be normal without at least one passion, be it film, football or fashion.) And as I said above, most normal people, especially if they are quite advanced (*very* occasionally I include myself in that category) in their pursuit of their interest, don't really enjoy being pulled back down to a beginner level.
I've read what I consider as many pertinent and salient remarks on this thread, but also a shed load of hypocrisy from players who know they are experienced, but pretending they are such saintly nice people to beginners, helping them along and all that bollox, but the bottom line is, what if a session, a potentially good session, starts to get dragged down to beginner level. Then the night a would-be prominent beginner or more, didn't turn up, and then how fluid and relaxed was that?
And don't start about better session management, I've heard it all.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
And good for you, Michael Gill. So I must be an Ego Nob as well. Let's form a little pressure group within the Session.org, then. Ego Nobs Against Ghastly Hypocrites -- ENAGH!
I turn up to a session with the hope, if not the expectation, of being able to participate in the playing at a reasonable level of several dozen tunes. Any half decent player who would tell me otherwise I would wonder what they're on about.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I hearby declare myself an EGO NOB as well, and so what!!!
It's the price you pay for being sincere.
I don't go to the sessions to please the beginners.
I haven't spent years of learning and practice to play "shoe the donkey".
Everyone of us is trying to fin his own satisfaction, only that some of us admit it and others don't.
Is not the beginner trying to satisfy his own ego as well? Of course he is, only that it takes less to satisfy him. That's it, is a different level.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Beheader
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Oh, and before I forget, Ptarmy. Before you realised it was me, Danny, a regular, you were quite prepared to vent your spleen and give out to me about being some species of A*seh0le, etc., because I had in your view contravened some unwritten law on sessionning, by my scribblings. (To whom I suspect you ascribed to a "The Session.org" newbie.)
Then after having gone down the thread your views seemed to have ameliorated, whereas mine have been steadfast. ie, "I don't like learners dominating a potentially good session, and isn't it great when good players regain the core of the session."
But I suspect you thought I was a genuine New Person at The Session.org, because I had changed my monicker. So I was therefore fair game to you once I started coming out with "stuff" that only an old hand should be allowed to say.
So, relating that to the content of this thread, no-one perceived as a "newbie" to The Session.org should be allowed to express the viewpoint that they prefer to play with seasonned players, rather than newbies. So if Frankie Gavin joined tomorrow under some guise, his view might not count until he became a regular?
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hmm!
This is a very 'polarised' thread. Ego Snobs vs. Ghastly hypocrites!
Real sessions aren't really like that, are they?
Danny, your original post was quite polemical (the turgid pointlessness of playing, or flogging, poor old donkey tunes time after time, etc) and elicited an equally polarised assertion from Ptarmigan (Can't think of anything more 'Turgidly Pointless' than being in a session with self-confessed soarers!).
Both are rather black and white positions.
There is not a post above without SOME truth in it, but there are too many where that fragment of truth is misused to bang someone else pointlessly on the head.
IMHO
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ugh. I hope i'm neither an Ego Snob nor a Ghastly Hypocrite but suspect I have been and continue to be both at times. Just to dispel that GH possibility, let me admit that it's a fact that I don't enjoy beginner-type sessions, so I don't go to them. The less-than-wonderful ES truth is that I work too hard right now at my job to have the energy to be altruistic, noble, or martyred outside. I'm at sessions to have a good time, thank you very much. And am I ever capable of getting annoyed -- mostly at stuff that I wouldn't have thought of doing myself even when a clueless beginner, like stopping someone a half-dozen bars into a tune they're playing to demand the tune title. Bleeeah!
I make a further ES confession that I have stopped going to events led by a gentleman who would be a fantastic guitar player if he could only keep a steady rhythm and not tear away with the tune someone else has started. I wish I had two cents for every time I had pointedly played loudly and steadily while he tried to speed up, only to have him not get the hint, and for it to be a problem the next time. I was at a small session in a private home recently when he was doing this, and I left as soon as I felt I decently could do so.
Yep. Definitely both even though I try to be neither. Busted.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
>If someone who's visiting the session sits next to me on the side where my co-host sits -- I'll point it out and ask them to make room.<
Phantom Button, I suspect you do so politely and without anger, realizing it for the innocent mistake it probably is. That didn't happen the time I was referring to.
With regard to the session you referenced, if you are a friend of the leader's, it no doubt gives you a very different perspective than that of the new person who goes there. And I hold to what I said about some of the behavior I've seen at that session, specifically that of the anchor-type in question.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Jim... cheers, but Johnny and Charlie always sat next to each other at that session. I was going contrary to Charlie Lennon's advice never to disturb the flow of the music. They no doubt liked discussing the tunes to play, Charlie probaly reminded him of key changes etc. I should have known better. But maybe you were just referring to my girth when you said room should be made for me.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
It's alright Jack at least now you've got a good name-dropping story - you can go round telling everyone "I sat in Johnny Moynihan's seat!"
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ok, Dow -- you want some name dropping? My sister is good friends with Robert Deniro, he put her in a recent movie with himself as a woman shopping for used cars. She also was good friends with Jerry Hall and spent Christmas with her and Mick once. I met Tom Wolf too, and offered Robin Williams my hat. My great grand uncle was one of Mark Twain's close friends, and Walt Witman was a close family friend.
Hows that?
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
But they don't even play tunes.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
How one-dimensional of you, Dow.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
There is a complaint from Ottery that this conversation is polarized. And some other people like to take the middle ground also, and say there is room for both arguments.
But the original question is very straight forward:
"Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?"
The consensus here is that all session etiquette is, is good manners, and I agree with that. So the question is straight forward:
"Is it sometimes OK to be rude, for the greater good of having a good night of tunes?"
The answer is surely "yes".
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Jack, I've always had something playing at the back of my mind about who you looked like - and you've just solved the mystery!
http://www.2020site.org/poetry/images/walt-whitman.jpg
And Michael, that wasn't really a complaint, more an observation, it's quite an entertaining/informative thread .....
But, personally, I only think it's 'sometimes OK to be rude, for the greater good of having a good night of tunes.' if you're being rude to someone who's manners are deliberately bad, and should know better, and that would by definition (and usually is) an experienced person and not a beginner. A beginner might benefit from a few 'words', but rudeness shouldn't come into it.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Sorry Button.
"Anyway, "A' wanna tell you a story" (Who said that?)" Probably way before your time - if I remember correctly, it was actually a Max Bygraves catch phrase. (WHO - I hear you all cry!)
Cathry
"absolutely abominate the, "That's MY seat" mentality"
Must admit I used to go for that same seat mentality, but just because it meant the core musicians, they being the regulars who tended to steer the session, were well able to hear each other clearly.
However I do think that where people sit, can have a huge difference on the success or failure of a session to 'work'.
For example, at a session last week the flute player & myself were adjacent but the concertina player, the third strong melody player, was way up at the other end of our long table. Between him & us were a guitar player & a whistle player who only knew a few slow tunes & as the pub was fairly noisy, there was little connection between him & us.
Later on in the night, when the whistle player left, I managed to organise a shift so that the concertina player got tucked in beside us - after that the session just took off!!
So I firmly believe that where musicians sit, depending on what instruments they play, can be crucial.
So the "Anchor men" as Button calls them, do need to be together. A Charlie Piggot & Johnny Moynihan session - Mmmmmm tasy!
Cathry "...I probably tromped on every possible etiquette rule at least once..." - That's OK - once is an accident but twice is just plain stupidity.
Michael - "Is it sometimes OK to be rude," Surely No is the only answer to that question.
You can usually get any message across by being polite.
I suspect the Ego Nobs just like to throw their weight around & be rude because they think it makes them look more important.
However, instead, it just shows them up for the ill-mannered Ego nobs they obviously are!
Indie - it never occured to me that you'd changed your monicker, you see I treat people with respect, whether they are old hands or newcomers, I don't just treat them like sh*t, try to make them feel uncomfortable & alienate them from sessions because they are not part of the 'old boy' network or are just learning their craft.
I see you guys call each other by names other than your .org monickers here, but If being part of thesession.org's 'Old Boy' network means I have to become an Ego Nob & treat newcomers to ITM the way you recommend, then I'm glad I'm not in that particular club - thanks very much!
Just remember, it isn't your god given right that YOU alone have the best session ever, each time you go out to play! Other folks are also allowed to enjoy themselves, whether they're old hands or newcomers.
I would pity any newcomer to ITM who would have the obvious misfortune to go along to one of your sessions & expect common courtesy & encouragement.
From what you say, they'd probably come away from it, scarred for life!
As for Frankie Gavin joining a session. I remember, in 1978 I think it was, a bunch of us novices were happily playing away, at probably fairly easy stuff, could even have been 'Shoe the Donkey' too, in a pub in Miltown when Maurice Lennon & Paul Roche walked in & stood at the bar listening to us for ten minutes.
Needless to say their presence made us a 'little' uneasy as Stockton's Wing were the big noise that year.
Anyway, they left, & came back two minutes later & I'll never forget Maurice coming up to us & politely asking, in that deep baritone voice of his, if they could join our session!
Now they didn't ride roughshod over our session, as they could so easily have done, & as you would no doubt have done Indie, but rather they kept at our level & chatted & we had a great time.
I remember Paul producing the first Bb flute I'd ever seen & it sounded wonderful.
Indie, I recommend you visit:
http://www.learningmanners.com/index.cfm
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
So you agree then. It is OK to be occasionally rude. Too much etiquette can be a bad thing. But less specifically, I think the meaning behind the question is: "Isn't it great now and then not to have any crap players ruining your tune?" (and whether they are learners, who should and would normally get some slack, or players who are just plain crap, doesn't come in to it)
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
P.S. Couldn't let Button get away with the only name dropping on this thread, now could I?
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"ruining 'your' tune?" I find the arrogance on this site absolutely astounding! Music is like the 'earth', none of us own it, we are just looking after it for those who follow.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Cross post there, my reply was for Ottery
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hippy sh*te. Custodians? nonsense.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ptarmigan, remind us again how... slagging people off, being over-familiar with strangers, calling them names, insulting their admittedly silly poetry, trampling over people's opinions, treating with disdain those who disagree with you, carping about their clique-ishness , preaching to everyone how they should behave and railing against the Power That Be's... is treating them with respect?
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Q
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Are you really telling me that you don't care about the standard of the music at your session? You'd rather be kind and decent and play crap all night?
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Michael - Who says that you have to play crap all night, just because you have a couple of beginners in?
I've seen many of these 'one dimensional' sessions before, mostly in cities, where strangers are ignored in the hope that they'll just simply go away & leave the wee bunch of eliteist Ego Nobs you enjoy 'their' music.
It gives me a doze of the dry vomit, every time.
Our sessions are in small country towns & villages & we are delighted to see new faces & we don't hold auditions to see if 'they are worthy' to join our session.
Oh - "Hippy sh*te. Custodians? nonsense." I see now, you are more to be pitied, than scolded!
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
We're making an assumption that "beginner's tunes" are always crap or do they just become that way because beginners latch on to them?
Maybe, we should start teaching learners all your "good tunes" instead. What will you do then?
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
And if you concede (As I would) that many well known tunes are actually quite good e.g The Bucks
, what's the harm of including a few here and there?
Then, everybody can go home happy.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
LOL @ Q - "admittedly silly poetry". That's like saying "stop being cruel about my friend's admittedly crap playing!"
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I have a suspicion that the folk who get upset by beginners having the sheer audacity to even venture any where near 'their' sessions, like to think they are 'above' playing such perhaps easy to learn tunes as polkas, flings, barndances etc.
Personally speaking, if we haven't played a few of those in any of our sessions, then the evening is not complete. They are very often quite delightful tunes to play. The day I feel I am too 'good' to play these tunes, will be the day I give up ITM.
I hate this attitude that the only good tune is a reel, & unless it has 5 parts, it's just not worth bothering about.
I think they're a bit like those neanderthals who reckon that unless they've drunk 15 pints & been found lying in the gutter, in a pool of their own vomit, then they didn't have a good night on the town!
Worst session I ever attended was one I visited in Donegal where only reels were played for over two hours. The most mind-numbing experience I've ever had to endure. It was not a real session at all, just a set back.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Reels are cool.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
For my part, to help explain where I'm coming from on this, perhaps I should point out I am a late starter myself & so feel that I am, hopefully, considered to be a little past the beginner stage myself, & just floundering around somewhere in the middle ground, with enough experience & knowledge of the music to appreciate just how good, the good guys really are, but also still in touch with my roots & how it felt like to be a struggling beginner.
I can still remember sitting with my one good tune, waiting for it to come up so that I could join in, only to hear it being played as I come back from the loo!
Perhaps the Ego Nobs are not able to remember what it was actually like to be a beginner.
They are probably also the sort of guys who honk at learner drivers!
Perhaps the Ego Nobs require our sympathy rather than our condemnation?
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Dow - I'm sure nobody here disagrees with you that reels are cool, of course they are, we all love them, but ALL NIGHT, to the exclusion of all other tunes! No, not a good idea!
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
At the end of the day, poor old Indie thought he'd be clever & go over the edge with this thread to provoke a response,
However, his plan backfired on him & his true colours were revealed in the process of this thread & his reputation will forever be tarred with the brush of 'Bad Manners' & 'unsportingly conduct' at sessions.
Indie, there's no escape, from now on, just as surely as I have been branded 'the grouse' so shall you be regarded for ever more as the original 'Ego Nob' of session.org
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: slipperyeels
imo a session with just reels is like eating muesli without milk. i like to hear a few jigs/barndances etc thrown in.they're just so cool that u could keep a side of beef in them for a week and so hip that they have difficulty seeing over their shoulder(sorry,douglas)
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by biggus dave
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I have to get back on track here, 'cause there's been some name calling, sorry.
I reiterate:
The meaning behind the question is: "Isn't it great now and then not to have any crap players ruining your tune?" (and whether they are learners, who should and would normally get some slack, or players who are just plain crap, doesn't come in to it)
Let's look at the bit I put in the brackets:
There are two types of people who can't play. Those who can't play yet and those who, for one reason or another, will never be able to play.
I have plenty of time for those who can't play yet. And one of the great thing about these people is they know when enough is enough and they are intelligent enough to just sit and listen for the majority of the night. In fact, that's one of the ways you can tell them apart from the second kind ...
I freely admit that I am often rude to people who will never be able to play. For they hog the tunes, try to play all night, think they contribute etc etc. I have no time for them. This music is not a nice inclusive free for all. When it's played well it soars, and that should be the goal, to make it soar. It's as simple as that.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Wake up Jim & smell the Roses. The ITM garden is full of a rich variety of flowers with many colours & scents. I'm afraid the 'all reel' garden, next door, is very boring indeed - all grass!
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
>Just remember, it isn't your god given right that YOU alone have the best session ever, each time you go out to play! Other folks are also allowed to enjoy themselves, whether they're old hands or newcomers.<
Yes. I think a good compromise is to have a set for everyone. I can grin and bear a few beginner-oriented sets as long as they don't dominate the evening, certainly. If there's encouragement of slow players, we have better odds of having more power players who really make a session go.
And I don't have a problem with being told I'm violating etiquette -- or telling someone -- if it's done politely and in a way that is constructive. and BTW, it's only "just plain stupidity" -- a phrase to be avoided at all costs in my very strong opinion if one wants to be taken seriously -- if you know that it's a violation of etiquette. I once pointed someone to session etiquette Websites. I did this because I would have been very pleased and appreciative had someone done the same thing for me one of the first times I'd gone to a session. I have been known to bring homemade jams to people who give me that kind of tip.
And there certainly might be good reasons to have the seating a certain way. So you explain the reason and point out another seat to the person who tries to sit where you don't want him/her to. Politely. Respectfully. Without snapping at them, and keeping in mind that they can't read yours.
A bit of an explanation as to where I'm coming from: there are so many people in this world (specifically, my sport-mad, nouveau-riche suburb) who are incapable of any enterprise more creative than watching a sport event on television. Nothing wrong with that, mind, unless it's a way of life -- which it is for nearly everyone out here. This has given me an appreciation of those who actually take up an instrument and go out and play with others more or less nicely. (Expletive), at least they're interesting. So I tend to admire fellow musicians just for being there, even if they p*** me off by interrupting me after I've started a tune to demand the title (I am just not getting over that one like I should >wg<).
A further illustration of my underlying philosophy: I was at Ceolas on South Uist when I overheard a teenage girl, a beginner, bemoaning how "awful" she sounded. I couldn't resist contradicting her. "No," I said firmly, "You sound GREAT." "I do?" she asked me doubtfully. "Yes. You sound like someone who's working hard to learn something excellent instead of just sitting in front of a TV set." "Oh." And of course, I asked her to play for me, and of course, I clapped fiercely. This is kind of the bottom line of how I regard fellow pub players in general.
I also attempt to take some responsibility for making the session a fun time for all. This is a goal that I have in mind when I enter the pub whether it's the first time or the 59th. If it's one of those weekends where I had to work through it and am feeling too sorry for myself to be civil, I'm absent from the session that night.
All this stuff can be worked out with some civility, some respect for others' feelings, and keeping in mind the sentences I quoted at the beginning of this post. (Expletive), if I ran the world, they'd be engraved on the walls of every facility where sessions are held.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Michael,
I still don't understand why you think it's useful to be rude to someone , experienced or not, simply because they can't play. I think you misunderstood what I said above and took it as tacit agreement with you that it was ok to be rude to such people. I actually said: (it's) 'OK to be rude, for the greater good of having a good night of tunes.' if you're being rude to someone who's manners are deliberately bad.
Please note the word 'manners' - not 'playing ability'. If someone is playing in a way that is intrusive and detrimental, surely they con be asked to stop without being rude to them. The way peoples egos tend to be, they will probably be offended enough by a simple quiet whisper in their ear that maybe they should listen more and play less, anyway(!)
Mark
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Michael, you are quite happy to select passages from the original thread, but ignore others which don't suit your argument!
What about - "And the feeling of liberation is...brill. Like what sessions should be about." - meaning, presumably that all sessions 'should' be devoid of learners & just full of soarers!
If that were the case, how would any of the beginners & learners ever gain first hand experience of sessions & learn by watching & listening.
Remember too that the newcomer not only learns the tunes, they also learn the accepted behaviour by watching the regular old hands.
As you sow, so shall you reap!
In years to come, some of todays soarers might find themselves excluded because they're just 'too old' to keep up with the next generation of soarers - now wouldn't that be poetic justice!
I, like everyone else here I'm sure, love to experience those soaring moments, but I'm not prepared to exclude other musicians just because 'I' deem them to be not worthy.
Neither am | greedy enough to expect only 'soaring' at sessions!
Anyway, doesn't this Ego Nob attitude just smack a little of 'the master race' mentality?
Come on guys, let's all remember our own early days & maintain a healthy, open & friendly attitude to our sessions, so that others may be 'encouraged' to join us.
Time for another story!
We had a Bodhran player who once brought along his Tambourine to our session & tapped it with his foot, under the table.
Now we could have been Ego Nobbish & humiliated him & so chased him away for ever, but I decided to talk to him, quietly, instead.
So, during the week I called round with him & in the course of our friendly conversation I explained that his tambourine just wasn't fitting in with the sound of the session & that I'd probably end up with a revolution on my hands if he insisted on bringing it again.
I explained that a tambourine wasn't really a traditional ITM instrument & it's sound didn't really fit in, & in fact some folks had said they even found it very irritating.
He took this on board & never brought it again, but still comes most weeks with his Bodhran.
There are two ways to do things, the right way & the wrong way.
Personally I'd try to go for good manners, & the right way, every time.
Why be rude?
I'm not saying I get it right every time, but I do try, & judging by some of the response above, some folks here already find me very trying indeed!
Fair enough, we will just have to agree to disagree.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Cathry - "if one wants to be taken seriously" Ha Ha Ha I'm not sure any of us actually take what is said here very seriously, do we?
After all, we are just airing our views here aren't we?
For example, I'd hate to think anyone payed a blind bit of attention to anything 'I' said. Come on now, what do I know!
Now if we had some of the 'Auld Guard' drop by and offer some advice, then I would sit up, pay attention & take notes, but here we're all just friends, sitting round a virtual reality session table, chewing the fat & chatting, as at a session.
We argue, disagree, & then, at the end of each thread we shake hands, agree to disagree & go on to the next one.
It'd be a poor session.org-er who bore a grudge from thread to thread.
No, I just regard this all as good clean fun, nothing more.
On the other hand, the Ego Nobs probably think they are preaching & dictating to us lesser mortals & formulating a new set of ten commandments!
- just felt like a laugh!
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yup. So-called "humor" and "just airing our views" are extremely common masks for aggression. Although "just venting" does seem to be more popular these days.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
You saying I need a mask Cathry?
Oh, & I swear it' wasn't me who just vented!
You know what they say, whoever smelt it first, is usually guilty!
Aw, now your blushing - cute!
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Blame it on the dog.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by McMandolin
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Why not make that the ultimate phrase in all threads? So as soon as we reckon we've chewed over something long enough, someone chips in with "Blame it on the dog" - &, end of story. On we go to the next one!
Of course it wouldn't be too long before some smart ass decided to try & start a new thread with that phrase!
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
When you've played in sessions for 20 years the past self can sometimes haunt your present self. When I was a hack beginner I remember one of the advanced players that seemed bothered by my presence. Being totally clueless at that stage I was violating subtle session etiquette left and right and no doubt deserved the notoriety. I remember someone telling me at some stage that said advanced musician had given him copies of the famous Gort ‘91 tape and the Brid Harper/Dermot Byrne tape with specific instructions not to make copies for me. It appeared the said advanced player was protecting his repertoire from the corruption of a hack like me joining in. My friend, God bless him, made copies for me anyway.
Fast forward to a recent session where a beginner flute player is in attendance and he's tweaking my pet peeve by noodling on tunes he doesn't know. (he doesn't know many tunes) I am trying to contain myself when he says, "Jack, I recorded this tune you were playing last week and I learned it...” (he struggled to play a snippet and I recognized it as a favorite a Richie Dwyer tune) “will you play it please so I can play along?" Now mind you, even if he learned it -- playing one of my favorite tunes with him would be not unlike passing a very large kidney stone. I wanted a way out and was trying desperately to think of one when the very fellow who made the renegade copies from the censored tapes says to me, ”Come on Jack – play the tune.” I looked over at the beginner flute player and saw the ghost of my former self… I was being haunted… I played the tune.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Mr. Phantom Button, thank you very much for contributing that story .
Sorry said advanced player had to be such an axx. I can't think what that did for him to treat you like that.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ottery
Yes, because he was a family friend I have pictures on the wall that were taken at the time. People visiting me often think it's either me or my grandfather in the photo. Here's a photo where he discribes my great grandfather's sister, Jeanette.
http://www.whitmanarchive.org/gallery/galleryframeset_files/1890s/122a.htm
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Funny you should say that, David. No, it's not her, but she did often dress like a man. She was an outspoken lesbian and suffragette as well as an author.
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Every time I log onto this site I see variations on the same post from "Indie Niall" and "Rab C Nesbitt" about players he clearly feels have no place in sessions he attends. Is this the same person known in SE London sessions as "The Metronome" because of his 'ability' to keep time?
# Posted on October 2nd 2005 by pinch of snuff
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hey Snuff - "The Metronome" because of his 'ability' to keep time?" That reminds me of a guy who played in Bells, many years ago, who just couldn't tap his feet in time to the music he was playing. He would tap both feet too, & each one at a different rhythm to the other, & neither in time to the music. Boys-a-deer was that off-putting!
You should try it yourself - I think you'll find that it's almost impossible, after you have spent years tapping in time!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ptarmegan. After just now coming in from a select, non advertised, invite only, session at an undisclosed location, prior to which I'd been painting the outside of my house, most of the weekend, I've just gone down this thread, and discovered the other side to someone I had previously considered as a verbose, but harmless chap.
Not only have you been personally abusive to me, but you have concocted lies based on your suppositions wrt my posts. My position remains. And that is simply, I prefer playing with players who're at around the same level or slightly better, or slightly newer. Anyone who knows me personally and knows my tunes and so on, would attest to that.
To be honest, I couldn't even really be bothered defending myself, I'll just let my track record speak for itself, both as a person and as a musician. I've had a few spats with Dow, maybe Michael, Will, Zina, and a few others, but we all do that. I actually look forward to a reply from The Dow while we're in the middle of some double act tussle. I've said before, though the thin sections of our personnae which come through on this site are probably never true reflections of the whole person, I do try to compensate for the thin slice by being 100% honest. And I think Dow is also. But what comes across with you, Ptarm, is:
Jumping to a conclusion.
Forming a black or white opinion based on conclusion hastily jumped at.
Having formed that opinion, bolstering it with lies (formed, of course, from ill-thought-through "facts".)
Then, consolidating your position by making big bold assertions then challenging everyone else here to...tell us a story as good as yours...give an opinion as strong as yours....and so on.
I mean.....what can I say?....*sigh*.....you really want to look at what you've become. Surely you can't be proud of what you wrote about me above? You actually left the real world and started making things up. I'm being honest, man to man with you. You really need to get a grip on reality. I'm not joking.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The question is not actually a logical one, so there cannot be a good answer. There's no such thing as "too" much session etiquette, only what works for a session or any given group of people. It's like being pregnant; either you are or you aren't.
I've said it before -- there's an etiquette for inviting your friends over for a casual night of pizza or to be invited over by a friend for a casual night of pizza. "Etiquette" does not necessarily mean "stuffy" or "snobby" or whatever.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think what he Indie was saying, or at least how Ptarmigan was interpreting it, was that session etiquette was dictating that he sometimes had to "pander" or not shush up some beginner players, or something like that. And he felt that being polite was holding his session back from achieving the musical heights that it could. Or maybe I'm wrong on all counts here.
Indie made a very heartfel post concerning Ptarmigan, with several points, but I am still not certain of what he was trying to say at the beginning.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
*sigh* If the etiquette within a certain group of people who session together is that beginners are encouraged at the cost of the overall music, then it is not "pandering" to encourage them, because it's a given.
If, however, the etiquette of the group demands that beginners are not encouraged in the slightest and the quality of the music overall must be considered first, then pandering is equally then out of the question, because it simply wouldn't happen.
This is, of course, a very black and white viewpoint in a very shades of gray kind of world, and every group must figure out on their own the practical sides of communicating their group etiquette and standards to new people joining their group.
I suspect that most of our sessions fall somewhere along the middle spectrums of all this, of course.
Anyway, there's simply no such thing as *too* much session etiquette, because all there is is someone in a group erroneously deciding that there are some bits of etiquette in place that aren't in fact in place for everyone across the board, including those new people.
Which is one of the reasons why politics and planning weddings are often like trying to herd cats.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ah bless, thanks Danny. Hey, I would probably look forward to your replies too if they were as witty as mine
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well done, Zina. At last, we have a reasonable and considered response to this topic.
Actually, we've discussed this subject in various guises before and it seems fairly straightforward to me. Of course, it's nice for experienced musicians to encourage beginners but they shouldn't necessarily expect it. Nor should beginners or newcomers necessarily expect to visit a session and expect to take part. In most cases, they will be welcome, but they should always be good mannered enough to ask-no matter what the standard is! The good musicians always(or they should) do this as well.
It ought to be fairly obvious to anyone whether a session is private, exclusive, cliquish, or whatever(I'm not suggesting all these adjectives mean the same thing) and visitors should have enough common sense not to take part. If in doubt, they can still ask or they might be invited.
Having said that, there's no need for rudeness. A polite explanation should be enough. Unless, of course, the person won't "take a telling" and then it is justified.
Finally, I've been in several sessions which "have soared" beyond my ability. They don't necessarily start like that but I have enough sense and manners to "take a back seat" when this happens or even give it up if it's needed. I certainly wouldn't do anything to interrupt the flow of such a session, whether by playing badly or attempting to change its format.
Yes, I've gone to new sessions and have been encouraged to start a set. Sometimes I will but, quite often(as I once intimated on another thread), I will politely decline as I don't want to spoil "the flow of the music".
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Indie, looks like I touched a wee nerve there, laddie! So maybe you do have a conscience after all?
You said - "You actually left the real world and started making things up." Hey, you don't actually believe that this yellow page is the 'real world' do you?
Come on now, if you start a thread with an outrageous statement, exaggerating your point, you must then expect the obvious consequences, i.e. others to argue that point against you, in a similarly exaggerated fashion.
So please don't go all soft on us now.
I'm afraid it's far too late for that, me old bucko, for our positions at this late stage are very clear, aren't they?
When you scrape away all the banter & craic down through this thread, the bottom line is, some folks think it's OK to be rude sometimes & some folks think you should always strive to be mannerly & polite.
I suspect that part of the reason for many of us here having such polarised opinions, is that we are all attending very different types of sessions.
Now, for example, the sessions up here are fairly quiet affairs, with the same core number of musicians each week, perhaps 4 or 5 at the smallest session & as many as 9 or 10 at the largest, but nearly always the same faces.
During the summer months we often get a new face or two drifting in, & we always welcome new musicians with open arms, for, good or bad, they change the session from the norm, & are a breath of fresh air.
They are either very good, in which case we talk about them for months after & hope they return, or, if they are not up to our standard, we certainly are not rude to them & chase them away, but rather encourage them, safe in the knowledge that they won't be there the following week.
But even if they were, we'd either learn to get along with them or kindly explain that they didn't fit in.
The only time I can remember someone falling into the latter catagory was when this Jazz guitar player appeared.
Now he whizzed up & down the fretboard playing all the right chords - but, sadly, in all the 'wrong' places!
It actually sounded horrendous & upset everyone that night & we all agreed that if he showed up again the following week, I would have to have a quiet word with him.
Fortunately, he never returned.
But hey, it wasn't the end of the world, we only had one session slightly ruined, & at the end of the day, it's all part of life's rich tapestry, isn't it.
You win some & you lose some.
Now I suspect some of you folks above, who have an opposing view to mine, & who are in Indie's 'OK to be rude sometimes' camp, actually have a very different local session experience to mine.
Could it be that you guys perhaps have lots of different faces appearing each week, perhaps lots of Guitar thrashers & Bodhran bashers who are not sympathetic to your sound?
If so, I can see how your patience might wear a little thin when it came to the question of how you react to their presence!
See Indie, I do have a soft squishy side to my nature. I'm not the heartless monster you perceive from my scriblings, well. not unless there's a full mooooooooooon
TaoCat - you say Indie "made a very heartfel post" Och, don't be fooled & taken in by his latest ploy, sure, he's only looking for the 'sympathy vote' now!
Anyway, I hope the above helps to explain, at least my position in all of this?
What worries me though is, I have this image of Indie painting his house, with this small Japanese guy beside him, directing his brush strokes, ........................
Anyone know what colour belt Indie wears?
P.S. Wish Zina wouldn't keep going on about that brilliant Pizza she gets over there.........slabber........drool.....................
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
No, I see his point, but I am far from agreeing with it. I'm with you on this. I think sometimes people get so into the music that they forget how they sound, so to speak. But I've given up arguing it here. Glad to see you doing it, though I'll be blamed if I can figure how you get time to play.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
There ye go, Ptarm. Lying again. I've never advocated it's ok to be rude. As I said you jump to conclusions then make up lies to bolster your Prejudices.
I give up.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yes John J, after a long, polarised debate, it is only natural that we end up with a sensible, reasoned comment or two at the end, just to sooth the frayed nerves, if nothing else.
- & yeah, I've been at those kinda sessions you talk of, in Miltown, where they start off grand & then soar out of sight & you know you are out of your depth, so rather than hold on to a seat which another expert could make use of, you go & stand at the back.
I don't think there is any shame in that, just common sense, & a case of putting the session first.
In places like Miltown, there's a lot to be said for just listening for a while, to see what level the players at a session are at, before just grabbing a seat.
I'm sure we've all seen the fool jump in, only to be left standing, looking a total prawn, as they don't actually know any of the tunes being played.
I saw a player do this in a Dublin Bar one night.
She waltzed in to this bar, saw the session of 'heads' & loudly announced to one & all who she was & what she played & promptly produced her instrument & 'stood' beside the musicians table.
For the next 15/20 minutes she stood looking more & more cringingly embarrassed - then packed up quietly, & left.
If only she'd taken stock & listened first, when she first came in!
It was actually old John Kelly, Bobby Casey, Joe Ryan etc, - some of the Auld Guard.
Fortunately, we had enough wit to just sit quietly at the next table all night just listening to these old guys play their odd tunes & unusual versions.
Now, I don't consider that these old buys were actually rude to her, for after all, she hadn't actually asked if she could join their session, & they hadn't asked her to join it, so they just carried on doing what they had been doing, which was playing some great old, obscure tunes.
It was one of those occasions where it would have been very bad manners to actually tape the session, certainly without asking first - so we didn't.
We just enjoyed listening.
Sorry if my wee stories bore you Indie - I'm sure your not alone.
But I'm afraid, at my time of life, all I have left, are my memories....................
Hey, your not the only one who can try for the 'sympathy' vote!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ottery. You say it's OK to be rude to someone whose "manners" are deliberately bad. And you emphasize 'manners', not 'playing ability'. The people I am often rude to are the ones whose bad manners are exposed by the combination of awful playing and their failure to realize that their playing is awful. Some times, and I say sometimes because I always try polite first, being rude to them is the only way.
White Grouse. You call me an ego nob and I held my hands up and accepted it. I apoligised for any name calling I sank to and you retort with calling me a nazi. " Anyway, doesn't this Ego Nob attitude just smack a little of 'the master race' mentality?". Whose being nice here?
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ooops, another cross posting.
"....blamed if I can figure how you get time to play..." - Yeah TaoCat, the answers easy - I'm off work just now with a lousy Flu (more sympathy votes - pleeeez)
Don't take it to heart Indie - you win some & you lose some!
) have made a total eejit of myself here on this mustard canvas, & I'm sure it won't be the last.
It's not the first time I too, (yes, even me!
Don't worry, if you arrive at our session next week, I will be polite & offer you a seat, & I might even buy you a pint (not an easy thing for a scotsman to say!), but don't ask me to soar - 'fraid I just have no head for heights!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"....being rude to them is the only way." Ahhhh, suffer the little children.......
If the cap fits Michael!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
It's not a case of taking anything to heart or winning or losing. I quite simply do not wish to waste my time engaged in a discussion with someone who clearly resorts to deceit in order to steamroadroll over any other dissenting voice. If you ask me, and this will be my last comment on this thread, *that* is a tactic reminiscent of the Nazis, not Michael's comments.
Bye!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
One other practical reason to be polite is that being rude sometimes leads to a loss of blood, teeth and dignity. Especially in places where alcohol is consumed by people with delicate egos.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Aw! I think he's taken the huff! Was it something I said?
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
So, there's a lesson here for all of us. Think twice about posting a thread when you come back p-ssed from a session.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Now, come on, be fair J J! Credit where credit is due - after all, when was the last time we had a thread which evoked 158 replies?
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
What I'm saying is, we should all get p*ssed more often, & then, post a thread, just for the halibut! Well, at least the p*ssed part anyway!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Godwin's!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Gosh I was almost siding with Danny there as I skimread this thread but he had to go and spoil it all
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Dow
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hey Dow - you say pot'a'toe & I'll say pot'a'toe. Och, Bo**ocks, let's call the whole thing off!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
My God!
Did this thread really only start on Friday?
It seems to have gone on forever!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yeah it did Ottery, but which Friday?
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Don't worry, he'll start a new one in the early hours after the next Thursday session aThe Blythe.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
JohnJ, There may be another thread, but it won’t have as much value for money as this one!
In the space of three and a half days, we’ve covered: turgid pointlessness, flogging poor old donkey tunes, self-confessed soarers, tactics reminiscent of the Nazis, Liberated Musicians, Ar*e Holes, kissing and fondling between beginners and advanced players, pandering to learners, admittedly silly poetry, flyboy sessions, Hippy sh*te, withering contempt, Bad Manners & unsporting conduct, Egan's polka in E min, Ghastly Hypocrites, the master race, and the new and wonderful EGO NOBS. In addition to this, the defense and prosecution have between them manged to invoke the following witnesses: Charlie Piggot, Johnny Moynahan, Frankie Gavin, Charlie Lennon, Robert Deniro, Jerry Hall, Tom Wolf, Maurice Lennon & Paul Roche, an outspoken lesbian and suffragette, Robin Williams, Mark Twain, and Walt Whitman!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
O K John J - So what have we learned? Oh no, on 2nd thoughts, let's not start it all over again!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Sorry, that last should have been addressed to you Ottery.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well said, Ottery.
And something else can be said from this thread: it was certainly an interesting distraction from a 200-page transcript having to do with an insurance dispute (bleeah!). My job as a court reporter takes me into some new and different arenas, but this wasn't one of those times. And, yes, I got the (expletive) thing out.
I suspect this is a true all-purpose thread that served many functions we don't even realize yet.
<gggg>
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Yeah ...
Naill had a good evening he wanted to share ...
Father Jack agreed
White Grouse was in a bad mood and he had to take it out on someone.
Ron P spotted early on that the heat was coming
... and come i did. Even Zina couldn't cool it down.
Tee he
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
come "it" did
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Hey Viz Top Tippers !
Find you get annoyed with Ptarmigan’s rubbish, and threads
sometimes take too long to read ?
Easy ! Simply look at the end of a post and if the author is
Ptarmigan then ignore.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by BegF
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Oooooooooo! Well, come on now BegF, don't just sit there on the fence, go on, tell us who you really side with on this debate?
Point of order - my last '8' that's EIGHT postings have been no more than '2', that's TWO lines!
Your last one was 5, that's FIVE - so Na Na ne Na Na
OK So I'm stuck here in bed with the Flu, & nothing better to do than communicate with you folks on the Mustard Page, but come on, don't pick on me, I'm just a wee fella after all! I may take the huff & never write here again! Boo Hoo...............
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Not one reply.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by BegF
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
O K! I know when I'm not wanted. But you'll be sorry. There'll come a day when you'll say to yourself, hmm wonder what old Ptarmi would think of this, or that...........................................sob........
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
No one is going to miss you here, Ptarmigan.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Beheader
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Ah if only I’d relax my anti-smiley rule just then, everything
would have been ok.
I love the auld wipe out an insult with a smiley technique.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by BegF
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
You needn't think a simple smile's going to make me feel better BegF, - after what you said! I'd expect, at the very least, a box of chocolates, a bunch of flowers or a copy of Danu's latest CD.
And as for McGregor, he needn't think I've forgotten he was thinking of moving to Scotland! Hah! He should bear in mind that Scotia is my ane hameland & it's full of clans who are sympathetic to my cause - & one word from me & they'll come down from the glens to visit a viscious pestilence upon his person!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I wonder how many times Nazis have been raised on the yella board? I'll do some research and be right back.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
While your at it Button, see if you can find out how many postings the longest thread ever had on the Mustard Page, cause this particular one feels like it's heading for a record!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
P. S. In case you hadn't noticed, this one is at 181
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
It would, of course, have gone on much longer, but some people started being rude to me & chased me away & I thought ye all clearly understood that I was the only one who was allowed to be cheeky around here!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
The word "Nazi" has been used 53 times. To answer your query, Ptarmigan, the longest thread was just over 400 replies and it was on a thread started by yours truly. I had posed the taboo statement/question that was not unlike pouring soy sauce on the open wound of the collective consciousness of the yella board; "Sessions ARE public performances?" Then on another thread I started our lovely smart-alecky Canadian contributor, Kerri, unearthed the contentious topic once again. That thread ended up going to over 400 as well.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Well, don't keep us on tenterhooks Jack! What was the conclusion? Are sessions public performances?
I'll get my coat ...
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Depends on who you ask.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
"too much of anything can be detrimental." Don't know if that's quite true - 'that'? I mean, give me too much nooky, every time! Now, perhaps - "far back in the depths of time" people couldn't handle too much of it, but I'd say a lot of us fit folks are well able for it now!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
I think that's easily reached by anyone who's had kids, David!
# Posted on October 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
BTW, the "Nazi Principle" is better known as Godwin's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
# Posted on October 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquett