I'm at the stage where I've got tunes running into each other in my head and I'm searching for a way to categorize them by type, name, origin, and especially note patterns. If anyone has run across such a system for remembering titles and notes, I'd appreciate knowing where and what it is... anything to make remembering easier. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I thought I'd better ask all the intelligentia of Celtic music first before I invent my wheel from desperation.
If you want to be really trad like the Phantom Button you have to be an anorak and categorise all the tunes in your head so you can play anything at will, however (and this is the important bit) you have to *pretend* not to know any of the names of the tunes.
Dow, I don't think a true Anorak has that much self awareness. I think there's probably another term for people that know all that stuff but pretend not to. I've met a few, they think it's more *Irish* not to know the names or where they got them. As for me, I'm an Anorak -- and I'm proud of it.
Come on you two, stop messin' around, just let us know who should receive the title of this site's greatest Anorak, so we can present him with the order of the PARKA!
I'd say, if truth be known, that everyone who regularly visits this site, & certainly all those who contribute to it must be automatically classed as ANORAKS - sorry folks, 'CAPS' for everyone, just line up over there....................
As for me, I fall into the category of having a head full of tunes, but knowing very, very few names, but I get away with it, as anyone who knows me will tell you, by being quite content to let other folk start the sets all night.
I much prefer the excitement of not knowing what tune comes next - bit like being at Miltown I suppose & exploring all the sessions, without a CP.................................
It is only a problem if you are keen to start sets & want to be able to name all the tunes coming up, but do you really need to name them. Just dive in & enjoy yourself & don't panic about the names. In my opinion your time is better spent learning tunes rather than names, but I simply don't have a memory that can retain names. I do envy folk I know like 'Kenny' & 'Marcas' for example, who seem to be able to store all that info away & bring it forward whenever it is required. I'm sure if you have a need to be able to work that way then there's no time like the present but as to how you set about doing it - dinnae ask me!
Oh, one thing I do do (do do, be do, be do!) in case I need to start sets at gigs, is write down sets of my favourite tunes with just the first two bars of each tune written out in ABC, but then I'm sure you already thought of that.
Anyway, taking that folder into a session would be just plain SILLY!
Well actually, now that you mention it................No! I just can't seem to find my way out of this office........stumbles off to try once more............
I'm probably just drinking the same brand of 'refreshment' you were Dow, when you posted your 'bio'. I suppose all the girls tell you you have an enormous 'BIO', do they?
It's not as big as it used to be. It used to be absolutely feckin *massive*. Everyone used to go on about how it was the biggest they'd ever seen. Can't be bothered to keep it up these days though. I've got too many other things to be doing, and I'm always too tired in the evenings. One of these days I'll get back to it and give it a bit of a tweak. Something might c... no I'd better leave it there
The only system I have found to work consistantly for remembering tune names is putting the name into some kind of nonsense which fits the tune. "Corn Riggs" is a tune I could never bring to mind till I put the words "The corn riggs are glowing in the early morning sun" to the first line. This is total gibberish, but the name and the tune are now together somewhere and I can bring them to mind easily.
I haven't done it, but you could produce a rhyming verse for each of your sets and your repertoire would become a rememberable poem.
An easy set of jolly dances:
To start with EGAN'S I intend.
Then PEGGY RYAN's FANCY prances
And BALLYDESMOND's at the end.
Contnuting with a tip from Ptarmigan (seen above), all these tunes started coming together for me when I made an index; the first two bars of each in music notation, sorted as to type (reels, jigs, etc.)
Between sessions, I go through the index pages and the very beginning is all I need to jog the ol' memory. It could get cumbersome, true, and isn't for everyone, but it sure helped me.
My teacher used to stick those labels you get free with blank cassette tapes to the back of his piano- accordian player so noone else saw it...He would write just the first bar or two of each tune in a set on the stick- on label, (very slim, quite long and perfect for this) and he could fit I guess about 5 or six sets quite easily with this system.
Our printer drivers b*ggered up when my wife installed a new photo printer. I tried to print out ABC Staff and it came out on 1/4 sized sheet of A4. Modern printers can print really small and still be legible. We've re-installed the printer drivers so they work properly again, but I've re-done my sheet music collection so it prints on A5 rather than A4. It fits in my pocket easily when I'm practising. It could probably go down to A6.
What I'm trying to say is, we've all got our own wheels. I may be at nearly the same stage as you, Sudsy, as I want to separate my collection of ABC files into jigs, reels, hornpipes and others. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm still amazed how much of this stuff fits in my head without losing anything else... ...that I'm aware of...
just don't bother trying to index/categorize whatever. just enjoy the anarchy inside your head. Your brain will sort itself out, brains are good at this. Part of the joy of playing this music is when tunes you haven't played for years just pop out and surprise you.
I agree with Michael Gill. Some people are driven to be systematic. I am, and I have lists of tunes and laminated cards of sets and goodness knows what all - but a database is a reference resource, not a body of knowledge. Knowledge is in your own brain and fingers and how you get it there and how you access it is a personal thing.
My lists give title, key (This for people playing chords - I don't care), type of tune (eg Polka) and the first two or three bars in ABC.
What's actually in my head is a title, a first note, the way the tune goes in the form of finger movements and a feeling. Sometimes they are held together by a mnemonic.
Key and type of tune is as far as I have gone in categorizing tunes, that is as much complexity as my brain can handle. Besides, I don't even own an anorak (although I do have a hooded sweatshirt).
"(although I do have a hooded sweatshirt)" Ah Ha! Al. You must be one of those 'THUGS' that Tony Blair is out to get! Right guys, check his pockets for dangerous weapons - e.g. Flick-Knife, Rocket Launcher, Molotov Cocktail, Kalashnikov, Bodhran, Spoons, .............................
My mind works very much like the computer I'm typing into right now when it comes to tunes and titles. The names (it doesn't matter whether they're the right names or not) are like icons on my desktop that refer to the tune itself stored somewhere on the hard drive. (my brain) I've witnessed people who didn't create icons struggle to access tunes on their hard drive when trying to start tunes, but these same people seem to know scillions of tunes when they're following other people who are starting tunes. I've also noticed these same people seeming to have a limited number of tunes available to start when they want to start a tune. This is one reason I try to attach a name to the tunes I learn.
For the set dances I play for I have created a master list that has multiple medleys of tunes that work for the common bar counts. I realized that most of these set dance bar counts could include combinations of 16, 24, 32, 48 bar tunes. If I don't refer to this list I'm less likely to include tunes I love that have odd bar counts. Also, I'm able to play medleys that end exactly when the dancers do. This is a high art for a fledgling Anorak such as myself.
Hey Button, you B............! You must be a tabloid writer? Cause I notice you have taken my words totally out of context!
You totally ignored the part which said - "I get away with it, ....... being quite content to let other folk start the sets all night.
I much prefer the excitement of not knowing what tune comes next" Now how, pray tell, is that being an ANORAK?
Come on then, so who do you write for - The Sun? - The Mirror? - The Sunday Post?
Blaaa! Think I'll go over and speak to Greg, least he agrees with me, oh yes & Michael too.................
"Part of the joy of playing this music is when tunes you haven't played for years just pop out and surprise you." Yes Gilly, that certainly is magic!
Hahaha... actually, my behavior at sessions is a lot like yours. I usually let others start the tunes, but not only because it's fun to see what tune pops up, but also to be sure that I won't be playing the next tune on my own. I get enough of my solo playing here in my apt. When I'm at a session I like to play with other musicians.
The tutor at our Hibernia tune workshop yesterday, a fine fiddle player and band leader, said that all there was in the space between his ears was a budgerigar flapping round twittering tunes.
The late great American roots musician John Hartford was said to be working on a catalog system for fiddle tunes that involved organizing them by their melody.
I don’t know exactly what that means, but it sounds intriguing. Could you somehow render a tune down to its bare bones, then organize it alphabetically according to its abc’s?
Several years ago I was contacted by a friend of John Hartford's to discuss taking on a software project. He wanted to play a tune on a MIDI keyboard and have the software capture the tune and compare it with tunes in a database and report on how well they matched. Sounds like the same project. Unfortunately, before I had gotten past the brainstorming stage, Mr. Hartford took ill.
We surely lost one of the greats when John Hartford passed on.
That kind of tune database is a fascinating concept. From your initial brainstorming, did it seem workable? Too bad nothing more came of it. Maybe we could have statistically proven that Sligo Maid really is the only A Dorian tune!
I understand this problem. I think the logical approach is to group the tunes according to key and make sure within those groups you associate the melodic differences with the name of each tune. For example, take a set of tunes in E minor: Toss the feathers, the Merry sisters, The lads of laois, Drowsy Maggie, Ships are sailing, The morning dew, lafferty's etc. It would be quite understandable to muddle these because they have a lot of common notes. It is much harder to muddle tunes in different keys. If you can play a set of tunes all in the same key without muddling, then you've cracked it.
One of the paths I was thinking of following was to find logical ways of collapsing a tune into all quarter notes, all half notes all whole notes and categorize those reduced tunes by modelling the patterns mathematically and statistically. I would have applied this to the sections of a tune (A, B, ...) separately. This was a sort of first approximation of the method. I had some ideas for the next phase, but I expected there would be some empirical learnings from the first statistical study that would guide me. From there, I imagined refining the technique as patterns and problems presented themselves.
This sounds very dry and analytical, but it came to me very intuitively while thinking about how a tune family can arise from a very simple proto-tune by successive elaborations. If you listen to enough early music, you can hear the process very clearly. A lot of those old tunes seem to fall easily into families that sound like elaborations and variations on a basic tune. This is obviously not a revolutionary insight, but when you try to reverse the process and turn it into logical steps that a computer can do, it gets kinda gnarly.
There are some pattern recognition algorithms and fuzzy logic approaches that could be useful, but I didn't get that far and I don't know much about those techniques. I was also going to look into the methods that are used in music copyright infringement cases.
If I didn't have to work for a living, I might pursue this stuff. Nah, I'd just play more tunes. Maybe somebody already has already done it.
Well, I've just gotten back to my original question to see what the respponse has been and , lo and behold, there is lots of babble and quite a few good ideas. Thank you all for the banter and the rest... I've been exploring ideas as well and so far the most useful seems to be, besides being intuitive which I love and support, is to start categorizing as I learn by key, type, and first two or three bars (unless I'm in one at the time and have had a little too much Guiness and then it's hopeless), and then title which I think can be linked to the bars by mnemonic devices of sone ort or another. Besides just playing, I'm going to be trying this out since I seem to be one who needs to get it straight just for my own satisfaction.
Thanks again. Any further ideas would be much appreciated.
Tune taxonomy
Tune taxonomy
I'm at the stage where I've got tunes running into each other in my head and I'm searching for a way to categorize them by type, name, origin, and especially note patterns. If anyone has run across such a system for remembering titles and notes, I'd appreciate knowing where and what it is... anything to make remembering easier. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I thought I'd better ask all the intelligentia of Celtic music first before I invent my wheel from desperation.
Thank you for any thoughts in this regard.
Sudsy
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Sudsy
Re: Tune taxonomy
I know what you're looking for -- it's called the Anorak system.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Tune taxonomy
If you want to be really trad like the Phantom Button you have to be an anorak and categorise all the tunes in your head so you can play anything at will, however (and this is the important bit) you have to *pretend* not to know any of the names of the tunes.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Tune taxonomy
Dow, I don't think a true Anorak has that much self awareness. I think there's probably another term for people that know all that stuff but pretend not to. I've met a few, they think it's more *Irish* not to know the names or where they got them. As for me, I'm an Anorak -- and I'm proud of it.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Tune taxonomy
So are you gonna tell Sudsy how to become a sad anorak like you? Come on, you're not being very helpful here!
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Tune taxonomy
Come on you two, stop messin' around, just let us know who should receive the title of this site's greatest Anorak, so we can present him with the order of the PARKA!
I'd say, if truth be known, that everyone who regularly visits this site, & certainly all those who contribute to it must be automatically classed as ANORAKS - sorry folks, 'CAPS' for everyone, just line up over there....................
As for me, I fall into the category of having a head full of tunes, but knowing very, very few names, but I get away with it, as anyone who knows me will tell you, by being quite content to let other folk start the sets all night.
I much prefer the excitement of not knowing what tune comes next - bit like being at Miltown I suppose & exploring all the sessions, without a CP.................................
It is only a problem if you are keen to start sets & want to be able to name all the tunes coming up, but do you really need to name them. Just dive in & enjoy yourself & don't panic about the names. In my opinion your time is better spent learning tunes rather than names, but I simply don't have a memory that can retain names. I do envy folk I know like 'Kenny' & 'Marcas' for example, who seem to be able to store all that info away & bring it forward whenever it is required. I'm sure if you have a need to be able to work that way then there's no time like the present but as to how you set about doing it - dinnae ask me!
Oh, one thing I do do (do do, be do, be do!) in case I need to start sets at gigs, is write down sets of my favourite tunes with just the first two bars of each tune written out in ABC, but then I'm sure you already thought of that.
Anyway, taking that folder into a session would be just plain SILLY!
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tune taxonomy
Ptarmigan, do you take amphetamines?
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Tune taxonomy
Sorry, that was really rude, but do you? I was just wondering.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Tune taxonomy
Well actually, now that you mention it................No! I just can't seem to find my way out of this office........stumbles off to try once more............
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tune taxonomy
I'm probably just drinking the same brand of 'refreshment' you were Dow, when you posted your 'bio'. I suppose all the girls tell you you have an enormous 'BIO', do they?
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tune taxonomy
It's not as big as it used to be. It used to be absolutely feckin *massive*. Everyone used to go on about how it was the biggest they'd ever seen. Can't be bothered to keep it up these days though. I've got too many other things to be doing, and I'm always too tired in the evenings. One of these days I'll get back to it and give it a bit of a tweak. Something might c... no I'd better leave it there
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Tune taxonomy
The only system I have found to work consistantly for remembering tune names is putting the name into some kind of nonsense which fits the tune. "Corn Riggs" is a tune I could never bring to mind till I put the words "The corn riggs are glowing in the early morning sun" to the first line. This is total gibberish, but the name and the tune are now together somewhere and I can bring them to mind easily.
I haven't done it, but you could produce a rhyming verse for each of your sets and your repertoire would become a rememberable poem.
An easy set of jolly dances:
To start with EGAN'S I intend.
Then PEGGY RYAN's FANCY prances
And BALLYDESMOND's at the end.
Roll over Shakespeare!
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: Tune taxonomy
And you can sing that to the tune of Egan's as well.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: Tune taxonomy
Contnuting with a tip from Ptarmigan (seen above), all these tunes started coming together for me when I made an index; the first two bars of each in music notation, sorted as to type (reels, jigs, etc.)
Between sessions, I go through the index pages and the very beginning is all I need to jog the ol' memory. It could get cumbersome, true, and isn't for everyone, but it sure helped me.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Tune taxonomy
My teacher used to stick those labels you get free with blank cassette tapes to the back of his piano- accordian player so noone else saw it...He would write just the first bar or two of each tune in a set on the stick- on label, (very slim, quite long and perfect for this) and he could fit I guess about 5 or six sets quite easily with this system.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by smuit
Re: Tune taxonomy
Our printer drivers b*ggered up when my wife installed a new photo printer. I tried to print out ABC Staff and it came out on 1/4 sized sheet of A4. Modern printers can print really small and still be legible. We've re-installed the printer drivers so they work properly again, but I've re-done my sheet music collection so it prints on A5 rather than A4. It fits in my pocket easily when I'm practising. It could probably go down to A6.
What I'm trying to say is, we've all got our own wheels. I may be at nearly the same stage as you, Sudsy, as I want to separate my collection of ABC files into jigs, reels, hornpipes and others. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm still amazed how much of this stuff fits in my head without losing anything else... ...that I'm aware of...
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Innocent Bystander
Re: Tune taxonomy
just don't bother trying to index/categorize whatever. just enjoy the anarchy inside your head. Your brain will sort itself out, brains are good at this. Part of the joy of playing this music is when tunes you haven't played for years just pop out and surprise you.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by ...
Re: Tune taxonomy
I agree with Michael Gill. Some people are driven to be systematic. I am, and I have lists of tunes and laminated cards of sets and goodness knows what all - but a database is a reference resource, not a body of knowledge. Knowledge is in your own brain and fingers and how you get it there and how you access it is a personal thing.
My lists give title, key (This for people playing chords - I don't care), type of tune (eg Polka) and the first two or three bars in ABC.
What's actually in my head is a title, a first note, the way the tune goes in the form of finger movements and a feeling. Sometimes they are held together by a mnemonic.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: Tune taxonomy
Key and type of tune is as far as I have gone in categorizing tunes, that is as much complexity as my brain can handle. Besides, I don't even own an anorak (although I do have a hooded sweatshirt).
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Tune taxonomy
Ptarmigan writes: "is write down sets of my favourite tunes with just the first two bars of each tune written out in ABC"
Another Anorak exposed.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Tune taxonomy
"(although I do have a hooded sweatshirt)" Ah Ha! Al. You must be one of those 'THUGS' that Tony Blair is out to get! Right guys, check his pockets for dangerous weapons - e.g. Flick-Knife, Rocket Launcher, Molotov Cocktail, Kalashnikov, Bodhran, Spoons, .............................
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tune taxonomy
My mind works very much like the computer I'm typing into right now when it comes to tunes and titles. The names (it doesn't matter whether they're the right names or not) are like icons on my desktop that refer to the tune itself stored somewhere on the hard drive. (my brain) I've witnessed people who didn't create icons struggle to access tunes on their hard drive when trying to start tunes, but these same people seem to know scillions of tunes when they're following other people who are starting tunes. I've also noticed these same people seeming to have a limited number of tunes available to start when they want to start a tune. This is one reason I try to attach a name to the tunes I learn.
For the set dances I play for I have created a master list that has multiple medleys of tunes that work for the common bar counts. I realized that most of these set dance bar counts could include combinations of 16, 24, 32, 48 bar tunes. If I don't refer to this list I'm less likely to include tunes I love that have odd bar counts. Also, I'm able to play medleys that end exactly when the dancers do. This is a high art for a fledgling Anorak such as myself.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Tune taxonomy
Hey Button, you B............! You must be a tabloid writer? Cause I notice you have taken my words totally out of context!
You totally ignored the part which said - "I get away with it, ....... being quite content to let other folk start the sets all night.
I much prefer the excitement of not knowing what tune comes next" Now how, pray tell, is that being an ANORAK?
Come on then, so who do you write for - The Sun? - The Mirror? - The Sunday Post?
Blaaa! Think I'll go over and speak to Greg, least he agrees with me, oh yes & Michael too.................
"Part of the joy of playing this music is when tunes you haven't played for years just pop out and surprise you." Yes Gilly, that certainly is magic!
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tune taxonomy
"My mind works very much like the computer I'm typing into right now...." Oooooh, get him! My, but we are so modest, aren't we - Button!
"This is a high art for a fledgling Anorak such as myself." Fledgling - me ar*e!
You have just been elected PRESIDENT of the PARKA CLUB!
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tune taxonomy
Hahaha... actually, my behavior at sessions is a lot like yours. I usually let others start the tunes, but not only because it's fun to see what tune pops up, but also to be sure that I won't be playing the next tune on my own. I get enough of my solo playing here in my apt. When I'm at a session I like to play with other musicians.
# Posted on September 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Tune taxonomy
The tutor at our Hibernia tune workshop yesterday, a fine fiddle player and band leader, said that all there was in the space between his ears was a budgerigar flapping round twittering tunes.
Trevor
# Posted on September 18th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tune taxonomy
The late great American roots musician John Hartford was said to be working on a catalog system for fiddle tunes that involved organizing them by their melody.
I don’t know exactly what that means, but it sounds intriguing. Could you somehow render a tune down to its bare bones, then organize it alphabetically according to its abc’s?
# Posted on September 18th 2005 by fidkid
Re: Tune taxonomy
Several years ago I was contacted by a friend of John Hartford's to discuss taking on a software project. He wanted to play a tune on a MIDI keyboard and have the software capture the tune and compare it with tunes in a database and report on how well they matched. Sounds like the same project. Unfortunately, before I had gotten past the brainstorming stage, Mr. Hartford took ill.
# Posted on September 18th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tune taxonomy
Bob himself,
We surely lost one of the greats when John Hartford passed on.
That kind of tune database is a fascinating concept. From your initial brainstorming, did it seem workable? Too bad nothing more came of it. Maybe we could have statistically proven that Sligo Maid really is the only A Dorian tune!
# Posted on September 18th 2005 by fidkid
Re: Tune taxonomy
I understand this problem. I think the logical approach is to group the tunes according to key and make sure within those groups you associate the melodic differences with the name of each tune. For example, take a set of tunes in E minor: Toss the feathers, the Merry sisters, The lads of laois, Drowsy Maggie, Ships are sailing, The morning dew, lafferty's etc. It would be quite understandable to muddle these because they have a lot of common notes. It is much harder to muddle tunes in different keys. If you can play a set of tunes all in the same key without muddling, then you've cracked it.
# Posted on September 18th 2005 by Fiddle Fancier
Re: Tune taxonomy
One of the paths I was thinking of following was to find logical ways of collapsing a tune into all quarter notes, all half notes all whole notes and categorize those reduced tunes by modelling the patterns mathematically and statistically. I would have applied this to the sections of a tune (A, B, ...) separately. This was a sort of first approximation of the method. I had some ideas for the next phase, but I expected there would be some empirical learnings from the first statistical study that would guide me. From there, I imagined refining the technique as patterns and problems presented themselves.
This sounds very dry and analytical, but it came to me very intuitively while thinking about how a tune family can arise from a very simple proto-tune by successive elaborations. If you listen to enough early music, you can hear the process very clearly. A lot of those old tunes seem to fall easily into families that sound like elaborations and variations on a basic tune. This is obviously not a revolutionary insight, but when you try to reverse the process and turn it into logical steps that a computer can do, it gets kinda gnarly.
There are some pattern recognition algorithms and fuzzy logic approaches that could be useful, but I didn't get that far and I don't know much about those techniques. I was also going to look into the methods that are used in music copyright infringement cases.
If I didn't have to work for a living, I might pursue this stuff. Nah, I'd just play more tunes. Maybe somebody already has already done it.
# Posted on September 19th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tune taxonomy
Did I already say "already" already?
# Posted on September 19th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tune taxonomy
OK, enough "already" already!
# Posted on September 19th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Tune taxonomy
Already?
# Posted on September 19th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tune taxonomy
Al? Ready?
# Posted on September 20th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Tune taxonomy
Well, I've just gotten back to my original question to see what the respponse has been and , lo and behold, there is lots of babble and quite a few good ideas. Thank you all for the banter and the rest... I've been exploring ideas as well and so far the most useful seems to be, besides being intuitive which I love and support, is to start categorizing as I learn by key, type, and first two or three bars (unless I'm in one at the time and have had a little too much Guiness and then it's hopeless), and then title which I think can be linked to the bars by mnemonic devices of sone ort or another. Besides just playing, I'm going to be trying this out since I seem to be one who needs to get it straight just for my own satisfaction.
Thanks again. Any further ideas would be much appreciated.
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Sudsy