I was noodling away on my mandolin, playing a slow air last night when my SO asked "is that a particularly Scottish thing?". I established that she ment the tremelo. I thought the tune sounded more expressive with the tremelo but my SO thought it was more expressive without. Of course - that could be down to the difference in what I imagine I'm playing and how my tremelo actually sounds... ;)
Now here's a question: while any mandolinist will tell you that tremelo is a 'mandolin-thing' and not a 'mediterainian-music-thing', given this association in most people's minds, how much tremelo do you use in playing Celtic music?
Well, many people would argue that the temelo sounds "a bit naff" in traditional music. If there's too much, I'd agree. However, I will add a little here and there during slow airs, waltzes etc and, of course, I quite often will play extra notes and triplets in other tunes too.
However, in a session situation, it's got to fit in with whatever else is going on. There's a girl I know who does a lovely tremelo on some slower tunes whereas I don't. So, when we do these I always play the fiddle so that I can "hang on to the note" until she's finished. I don't want to do the same thing myself but wouldn't advise her to change her style either. So, I compromise.
Maybe it's association of ideas but tremolo on mandolin seems to evoke Italian images. To be honest I don't see the Mandolin as an instrument for playing Irish Slow Airs. For me that has to be on the whistle, fiddle or Uilleann Pipes. Not even the harp can do them justice IMHO.
Well Donough, I see we're playing devil's advocate again?
The answer to your misguided statement is obvious - you have been listenening to the wrong harp players - simple as that!
As for the real question here (sniff) I'd say it's like any other form of ornamentation, if it is added in moderation, it can sound very tasty indeed.
However, just as we hate the sound of all that rolly polly way over the top stuff on the old B/C Accordions, or far too many triplets on a Donegal Fiddle reel, or far, far too many rolls on a Sligo reel, or way too many vibrato flaps on a whistle, so you can overdo it with any form of ornamentation. It's all a matter of taste - you either have it, or you don't!
I'd say go with what comes naturally, think 'moderation' & just politely ask the snipers & be-grudgers to go forth and multiply, with a quaint little smile on your visage!!
I've always thought of it as a combination of moderation and execution. The better you can execute it the more of it might be considered to be "in moderation". Which is I guess what John J was alluding to.
I take Ptarmigan's point about apropriate leveles of ornamentation, but I don't really see tremelo as ornamentation, not on a mandolin anyway, because it is a technique of playing extended notes that would otherwise not sound for their full value given the nature of the mandolin.
As for Donough's comment, well the mandolin is a perfectly appropriate instrument on which to play any type of tune, slow or otherwise, so let's not get into a debate about what instruments are "allowed" to play celtic music.
Some tunes sometimes classed as slow airs can be effective on the mandolin. Baptist Johnston, for instance - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/4242 - is often classed as a slow air and it sounds excellent on a mandolin.
I never said anything about who or what is "allowed" to play ce**** music. In fact I never used the word. I was talking about Slow Irish Airs.
This was only a comment on what I enjoy and nothing more; I am not the trad police but look out they might be on their way
Too much tremelo can make it sound a bit "sugary" and I've seen some players go overboard and the tremelo sometimes lasts *longer* than the note. As I say, I tend to use it sparingly and will often just play a few extra notes, eg a triplet or very short tremelo.
If you're playing the lead or the tune on your own, you can really do what you like. It's just a matter of taste which might be good or bad. In a session, however, it's got to be sympathetic to what else is going on around you.
Gary Peterson from Hom Bru has played "Italian style" mandolin in his time and will quite often introduce short bursts of tremelos and/or "five note triplets".( OK, I realise that the correct word is quintuplet but that doesn't convey the idea quite as effectively) However, Gary is a great player who understands the music (albeit more Shetland and Scottish) very well so it works for him.
I don't know where this idea that tremolo is not right for "C*l*i*" came from.
I've heard that a few times recently. The first time I heard mandolin in "Lice Tic Scum" (anagram) was in the 60s on the Clancy Bros "Leaving of Liverpool" and the second time was on a slow air by Barney McKenna with the Dubliners, also in the 1960s.
Guess what - Barney played tremolo.
It could only sound Italian if your musical frame of reference is limited and Andy Irvine is the only non-American mandolin player you knew of pre 1980.
If tremolo is good enough for Barney, and Gary Peterson - it's good enough for me. Especially if playing with a box or a fiddle in a noisy session. Sounds great.
As my mother Rose would say "all things in moderation, especially moderation"
That about sums it up on ornamentation for me any how.
So happy to have discussions about mandolins in Irish music. Surely it's an ideal instrument for it but rarely seen (or heard) in sessions.
Peter
Funnily enough I was just playing along to a piping track there with my mando before I read this post. The tune ends on a long sustained note on the pipes and I found myself wanting to do a big tremolo too at the end. But no... I don't think it's a good idea, sounds corny or sumhin... better to just play that last note and move the elbow as if squeezing bellows...
I was just listening to an old LP of the Abbey Tavern Singers .The banjomandolin player ,Bill Powers from County Wexford ,used tremelo on the air Slieve na mBan But played plain single notes on the jigs and reels. I agree with mandolinwind , tremolo is part and parcel of the mandolin but not all the time.I also use it for volume in loud sessions.
I've been playing my mandolin lately in sessions. It really kicks butt. (It's a really nice mando.) I play ornaments, even on slow tunes, but I don't do tremolos. It might be OK once in a blue moon, but it's not to my taste. Yeah, some do, but each to his own.
Donough: "justice" is highly overrated.
But a mandolin can play a slow air, Irish or otherwise, and sound fine to lots of people.
I did have to stop our practice the other evening to tell the whistle player that I was playing tremolo in order to carry the last note of the tune we were learning; but that she didn't have to do it that way!
I've just acquired a mandolin. How is the tremolo played? Do you need a light or heavy pic? A Neapolitan chap I met played a lot of tremolos and they sounded nice for that kind of music. Is the down stroke the most important for mandolin technique? How about chords or moving up the neck. I play mine with the same fingering as my fiddle. I presume that is ok.
You'll soon realise that there is not ONE way to do it. I like to tthink of it more as brushing the strings rapidly up and down than actually plucking them. Above all RELAX.
You can use any sort of pick. I think people get far too bound up in what sort of pick they have. Bluegrass boys will play with nothing but the heaviest pick. A lot of "celtic" players favour a light pick. Me - I like a medium one. We all play tremelo. Use the pick you find best - it's a bit of plastic not a magic bullet.
The downstroke on the mandolin is about as important as the down stroke on a guitar.
Chords and moving up the neck... wow that's a packed question. Using fiddle fingering I'm sure is just fine (I'm not a fiddle player but this is what I understand).
Rob - check out the Mandozine and Mandolin Cafe websites for loads of material, and links to answer all your questions.
Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
I was noodling away on my mandolin, playing a slow air last night when my SO asked "is that a particularly Scottish thing?". I established that she ment the tremelo. I thought the tune sounded more expressive with the tremelo but my SO thought it was more expressive without. Of course - that could be down to the difference in what I imagine I'm playing and how my tremelo actually sounds... ;)
Now here's a question: while any mandolinist will tell you that tremelo is a 'mandolin-thing' and not a 'mediterainian-music-thing', given this association in most people's minds, how much tremelo do you use in playing Celtic music?
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by JonB
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Well, many people would argue that the temelo sounds "a bit naff" in traditional music. If there's too much, I'd agree. However, I will add a little here and there during slow airs, waltzes etc and, of course, I quite often will play extra notes and triplets in other tunes too.
However, in a session situation, it's got to fit in with whatever else is going on. There's a girl I know who does a lovely tremelo on some slower tunes whereas I don't. So, when we do these I always play the fiddle so that I can "hang on to the note" until she's finished. I don't want to do the same thing myself but wouldn't advise her to change her style either. So, I compromise.
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Maybe it's association of ideas but tremolo on mandolin seems to evoke Italian images. To be honest I don't see the Mandolin as an instrument for playing Irish Slow Airs. For me that has to be on the whistle, fiddle or Uilleann Pipes. Not even the harp can do them justice IMHO.
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Donough
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Well Donough, I see we're playing devil's advocate again?
The answer to your misguided statement is obvious - you have been listenening to the wrong harp players - simple as that!
As for the real question here (sniff) I'd say it's like any other form of ornamentation, if it is added in moderation, it can sound very tasty indeed.
However, just as we hate the sound of all that rolly polly way over the top stuff on the old B/C Accordions, or far too many triplets on a Donegal Fiddle reel, or far, far too many rolls on a Sligo reel, or way too many vibrato flaps on a whistle, so you can overdo it with any form of ornamentation. It's all a matter of taste - you either have it, or you don't!
I'd say go with what comes naturally, think 'moderation' & just politely ask the snipers & be-grudgers to go forth and multiply, with a quaint little smile on your visage!!
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
I've always thought of it as a combination of moderation and execution. The better you can execute it the more of it might be considered to be "in moderation". Which is I guess what John J was alluding to.
I take Ptarmigan's point about apropriate leveles of ornamentation, but I don't really see tremelo as ornamentation, not on a mandolin anyway, because it is a technique of playing extended notes that would otherwise not sound for their full value given the nature of the mandolin.
As for Donough's comment, well the mandolin is a perfectly appropriate instrument on which to play any type of tune, slow or otherwise, so let's not get into a debate about what instruments are "allowed" to play celtic music.
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by JonB
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Some tunes sometimes classed as slow airs can be effective on the mandolin. Baptist Johnston, for instance - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/4242 - is often classed as a slow air and it sounds excellent on a mandolin.
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
I never said anything about who or what is "allowed" to play ce**** music. In fact I never used the word. I was talking about Slow Irish Airs.
This was only a comment on what I enjoy and nothing more; I am not the trad police but look out they might be on their way
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Donough
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Too much tremelo can make it sound a bit "sugary" and I've seen some players go overboard and the tremelo sometimes lasts *longer* than the note. As I say, I tend to use it sparingly and will often just play a few extra notes, eg a triplet or very short tremelo.
If you're playing the lead or the tune on your own, you can really do what you like. It's just a matter of taste which might be good or bad. In a session, however, it's got to be sympathetic to what else is going on around you.
Gary Peterson from Hom Bru has played "Italian style" mandolin in his time and will quite often introduce short bursts of tremelos and/or "five note triplets".( OK, I realise that the correct word is quintuplet but that doesn't convey the idea quite as effectively) However, Gary is a great player who understands the music (albeit more Shetland and Scottish) very well so it works for him.
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
I don't know where this idea that tremolo is not right for "C*l*i*" came from.
I've heard that a few times recently. The first time I heard mandolin in "Lice Tic Scum" (anagram) was in the 60s on the Clancy Bros "Leaving of Liverpool" and the second time was on a slow air by Barney McKenna with the Dubliners, also in the 1960s.
Guess what - Barney played tremolo.
It could only sound Italian if your musical frame of reference is limited and Andy Irvine is the only non-American mandolin player you knew of pre 1980.
If tremolo is good enough for Barney, and Gary Peterson - it's good enough for me. Especially if playing with a box or a fiddle in a noisy session. Sounds great.
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Bren
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
As my mother Rose would say "all things in moderation, especially moderation"
That about sums it up on ornamentation for me any how.
So happy to have discussions about mandolins in Irish music. Surely it's an ideal instrument for it but rarely seen (or heard) in sessions.
Peter
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Peter O'Connor
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Funnily enough I was just playing along to a piping track there with my mando before I read this post. The tune ends on a long sustained note on the pipes and I found myself wanting to do a big tremolo too at the end. But no... I don't think it's a good idea, sounds corny or sumhin... better to just play that last note and move the elbow as if squeezing bellows...
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Cammy
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
I was just listening to an old LP of the Abbey Tavern Singers .The banjomandolin player ,Bill Powers from County Wexford ,used tremelo on the air Slieve na mBan But played plain single notes on the jigs and reels. I agree with mandolinwind , tremolo is part and parcel of the mandolin but not all the time.I also use it for volume in loud sessions.
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by McMandolin
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Boulavogue by the Dubliners, tremolo from start to finish
If it's good enough for them...
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Cath
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
I've been playing my mandolin lately in sessions. It really kicks butt. (It's a really nice mando.) I play ornaments, even on slow tunes, but I don't do tremolos. It might be OK once in a blue moon, but it's not to my taste. Yeah, some do, but each to his own.
# Posted on September 9th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Donough: "justice" is highly overrated.
But a mandolin can play a slow air, Irish or otherwise, and sound fine to lots of people.
I did have to stop our practice the other evening to tell the whistle player that I was playing tremolo in order to carry the last note of the tune we were learning; but that she didn't have to do it that way!
# Posted on September 10th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
I've just acquired a mandolin. How is the tremolo played? Do you need a light or heavy pic? A Neapolitan chap I met played a lot of tremolos and they sounded nice for that kind of music. Is the down stroke the most important for mandolin technique? How about chords or moving up the neck. I play mine with the same fingering as my fiddle. I presume that is ok.
# Posted on September 11th 2005 by Rob Millner
Re: Mandolin tremelo in Celtic music
Tremelo: Start slowly and then speed up as you get better at it.
Have a look at this link to the same discussion on the Mandolin Cafe Message Board:
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=63b4c651b61d5ee60bc23eb84fcaf712;act=ST;f=6;t=22815;hl=tremelo
You'll soon realise that there is not ONE way to do it. I like to tthink of it more as brushing the strings rapidly up and down than actually plucking them. Above all RELAX.
You can use any sort of pick. I think people get far too bound up in what sort of pick they have. Bluegrass boys will play with nothing but the heaviest pick. A lot of "celtic" players favour a light pick. Me - I like a medium one. We all play tremelo. Use the pick you find best - it's a bit of plastic not a magic bullet.
The downstroke on the mandolin is about as important as the down stroke on a guitar.
Chords and moving up the neck... wow that's a packed question. Using fiddle fingering I'm sure is just fine (I'm not a fiddle player but this is what I understand).
Rob - check out the Mandozine and Mandolin Cafe websites for loads of material, and links to answer all your questions.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by JonB