Would anyone like to suggest tempos (metronome markings) for jigs,reels hornpipes,slipjig etc..... I know this will be very general but for a beginer it gives me a guide line to shoot for. If not a general idea please let me know the tempos that you play and the general area you are from. Thanks Doug Barr
Good question, it really depends on the tune & the mood of the session your at. The only place you'll find it set in stone is at Feis (dance competitions) where the dancers will ask you to play at a certain tempo & that's usually only for 20% of the tunes. Here's some general guidelines that I think work
Reels 90 to 110BPM
Jigs (all kinds) 80 to 100 bpm
Hornpipes 80 to 100
I think it's better to err on the slow & swingy side than the fast & tripping all over yourself side. There's no shame in playing slower, I focus on the actual sound I'm producing when playing slowly. Sometimes when I'm playing fast I'm just shooting out the notes to get them all out in order, but I sacrificing swing, ornaments, variations etc when I do that. I suggest the time honored advice of listening to a lot of players & feeling it out from there. Not just recordings either, you can get more answers to your questions from a good player in your hometown than you can get from a CD of your favorite artist.
Hope this helps,
Now for the didactic rant. These tempos seem fast to me. Yes, the sessions I play at do sometimes roll through jigs and reels at a good clip, and sometimes dancers ask for a higher tempo than I would play a given tune, given my choice. But some of the best sessions I've heard (with some "name" players) have consistently played significantly slower than Breathnach's recommended tempos. I've only been to sessions in the States and Canada, not Ireland, though some of these were peopled by players from Ireland, including a number of recording stars. On most tunes, they *all* went slower than Breathnach's numbers.
There are damn few absolutes or certainties or constants in ITM, and tempo (like most of the qualities in trad music) is something that is best left to sort itself out through sheer playing. In the early going, you'll want to go slower than "normal" (whatever that is) because otherwise your playing will suffer. It's better to play with a solid rhythm and tone than to sacrifce either for speed. And then as your ability allows you to speed up, you'll find "natural" tempos for most tunes, a pace that just seems to fit the pulse and feel of the tune. So it's less a matter of a tempo to "shoot for" than listening to the tune and letting it set the tempo. You'll also find that many tunes work well at several tempos--slow versions of jigs, say, in the 80 to 96 bpm range, and then ripping fast versions of the same jigs up around 160 bpm. In twenty years of playing ITM, though, I've never worried about putting a number on tempo. It usually works itself out--when the circle is full of energy, we play up tempo. When we're all lazy after a meal or too much beer, the tempo slows. Sometimes, a player will say, "Ya know, that one sounds a lot better when we slow it down and really swing it." Or "Geez, we crawled through that one--can we pick up the pace so the dancers don't look like zombies?"
Of course, sitting in at a session and finding every tune going by faster than you can play is tremendously frustrating, and so lots of people focus on speed. My (unsolicited and probably unwanted) advice is to strive instead for an effortless sound, and be patient. Speed will come, and if you're relaxed and humming the "effortless" mantra, it won't even feel fast when it does come.
Hope this helps.
P.S. When I play with someone just learning this music, we slow *way* down. And rather than moaning to myself that "this person needs to work on speeding up," I think "how much lift and swing can I bring to my playing at these slower tempos?" Ultimately, getting an authentic trad sound is all about lift and pulse and timing, which has little or nothing to do with tempo.
Well, you can't say much more than Will and Brad have said! Do really try to internalize what they've said above, Doug -- there are some really important concepts in there.
One of the hallmarks of a beginner is that they generally try to play faster (usually through nervousness!) than they can actually play. You'll prove yourself to have taste and discretion by sticking to a speed slightly slower than you can actually play.
Something I've found myself, Doug, is that the players you want to emulate, the ones you should admire, the ones who are truly good players, will have Will's and Brad's attitude about playing at slower tempos with beginners. A truly good player will be able to find the heart of the tune no matter how slow a tempo it's played at.
general advice: slow down a bit .... I admit this advice is given because at many fast playing events I get lost, but anyway: if I listen to recordings of these events the other players managed better than me to play quick&dirty but don
Well said by all! One of the most suprising things I found is how slowly people played their tunes in Miltown Malbay; James Kelly especially. Taking that lesson to heart, I learned The Old Copperplate and practiced it for about 3 days, very slowly, with a metronome. When the guys at session pulled out that tune last night I joined in and found they were playing at least double the speed I had practiced it at. But instead of dropping out, I found that I could keep up and play the without any problem.
I guess what I learned is that if you play well slowly, playing fast isn't a problem. I've heard that for years and never believed it, and my playing suffered for it. Now I'm a believer!
And with heaps more life and fire than when you're just plain racing it. Wow! Which Old Copperplate was it? The one that goes that way, or the one that goes taht way? Luv em both as a set. I have them on tape with the comment that they're the same tune only different. Fabulous.
Cheers
I think it's all been said and very well too. I just want to endorse the points about finding the speed to suit particular tunes - there's no standard tempo to fit all tunes. If in any doubt, reduce the speed and you're more likely to find that elusive dra
I am a novice player, and have been guilty of thinking that a tune sounds "Irish" if you play it very fast. I have gone back to square one and have been concentrating on the proper accents at a much slower speed. I find that it makes playing less stressful, and the overall sound is more pleasing to the ear. So, I will add my amen to what is said in all of the previous responses, and wish I had read them a year ago.
That's a quaint term that I've heard for those times when we play too fast and are just trying to hit the notes. Not a good time to have the recorder on.
Martin Hayes says that a tune should be played at the speed that allows you to play it correctly ad work on it. So, learning a tune, one should play it slow until it can play it without any sort of problem in bowing (or breathing, ecc).
Geeeeez, Volker, I thought I'd for fun go and see what came up under "mantra"... wow, some of those posts are amazing! Well worth the re-read...but doesn't that seem like such a long time ago?! I've never really gone back to read our old threads...I can see I'll have to start doing that regularly, some of the advice Will and Brad and everyone else gives is really really good, and I should remind myself of it more often.
My advice to those people practising with metronomes is to lose them unless you wish to sound like a computer. Irish music is rarely played exactly on the beat but usually slightly behind the beat. Listen to the Joe Burke and Andy McGann recordings or the Frankie Gavin/Paul Brock "Tribute to Joe Cooley" album as prime examples of this. This sounds quite laid-back but if you try playing along you'll find it's not slow. Some people play ahead of the beat e.g. De Dannan, Dervish. This gives the music a more urgent and exciting feel but can become tiring to listen to after a while.
So it's not about speed, it's about feel (unless you are playing for dancers where you need to play at a danceable speed).
I agree with Will about letting the tune set the tempo. Some tunes suit a slow tempo, others a faster tempo. Some tunes can stand to be played fast or slow, although the character of the tune may be markedly different.
Tunes have their own internal rhythyms as well (a fact unknown to most bodhran players). A good player will bring these out.
So forget bpm. It's important to remember that music is made up of phrases not beats or bars.
I've never heard another version of the Old Copperplate. Please post one if you can. The Old Copperplate I was mentioning is the same one posted on thesession.org (posted by Brad Maloney). I agree there are a ton of layering opportunities in that tune! Speaking of which, how is that 'layering technique' going with you? Anything interesting come from it?
I don't know if anyone has mentioned a wonderful piece of software called (appropriatley enough) 'The Amazing Slow Downer'. It does what it says, and keeps the pitch of the tune the same. Works with CDs as well as MP3s on your computer. If anyone really want's to practice slow, but practise with the best players, this is the software for you. Mac and PC versions available.
There is something that metronome work will help you to do that you really can't work on without one: one of the things that all the really good players admire in another player (and in themselves) is the ability to have a rocksolid tempo that never changes unless the player wants it to do so.
As the great players always say, you should never turn down the opportunity to work with another tool.
Sorry Zina, I can' agree. I think that you have to feel the pulse of the music within yourself. I don't see how playing along with a metronome will help as by the time you hear the tick it's already too late to play the note. In order to play along with a metronome you have to anticipate it and if you can do this you don't need a metronome.
Well, lots of people can't feel a steady pulse, and the metronome helps them to feel what that's like. Obviously, you can, so we'll always look to hear a steady beat from you, then! The rest of us pulse challenged can keep working with our metronomes. Isn't it a good thing that there's all kinds of ways for people to work?
i've never used a metronome in a trad context so i remain open to charges of pontificating about that which i've never experienced but here's my view anyway: metronomes in general are a bad thing.
there,i've said it.
i only use them as a last resort if i'm faced with some horrible classical/contemporary passage.
if you're trying to play a phrase/passage that you can sing/hum/internalise or whatever then the metronome is the antithesis of the desired result.assuming you practise enough to be capable of playing with a mechanical beat(and this takes a LOT of practice) the end result will not be sympathetic when playing with other humans - and indeed on your own.i cannot explain the physics of why this should be but that's my experience anyway.
i can offer the dubious analogy of the speech therapy sessions when i was a kid.the therapist who first saw me got me to talk with a metronome beating away on the table - this resulted in my being able to talk like some b-movie sci-fi robot.it was n't pretty to hear and it fooled nobody.i agree that you must feel the pulse yourself which can take practice as well.i know there's some tunes about which i feel ok as far the pulse goes(if not the rest of the caboodle) and there's others which utterly defy me so far,ha ha! i can't say why but i do believe that the metronome way is a blind alley.
following on from this,here's chairman dave's thoughts on slow playing: i think it's a good idea to slow down a new tune to what feels comfortable but after you've got the notes then you have to play phrases and ultra slow playing just will not allow you to do this.or so i think.having said that,practising something too fast and too slow may give good results but there's slow and there's slow.
one of my teachers once told me to practise beyond my limits and to play within them.i might not always agree with that -it's a good feeling to be on the edge sometimes - but i found that advice helpful.
for me,the metronome is the devil's tool (as in implement,not the other!!) anyway,'god bless us all' said tiny tim...
I have to confess. I have no trouble keeping a solid beat and tempo going, solo or in a group, and I can get enough lift into a tune that dancers quit milling around and are actually moved to dance when I play. But I find it really unpleasant to play with a metronome. I used to take this as a sign that my rhythm wasn't as good as I thought it was, but after 20 years and playing with many good musicians, no one has ever complained about my rhythm. (Perhaps they're just suffering in silence.)
It's not that I *can't* play with a metronome, but that mechanical beat just doesn't inspire me to swing. It's a lock step, not a pulse, and it doesn't work for me.
So when I want to focus on the beat, I'll either sit next to a good drummer, or--mostly to work out complex passages--I play along with my music transcription software. The program creates a sound file as I type in the tune, and I can set the "swing" factor to the degree I want, and then jam along.
I don't mean to knock metronomes or people who like them. Just offering an alternative that works better for me. I do keep a metronome around, but I use it primarily to hear what 110 bpm sounds like so I can play hornpipes for dancers.
Kevin
I'm really into sharing what I've got and I'd love to share the other Old Copperplate through 'the session'. I saw it wasn't on the tunes list but its got to be common and I don't do ABC's (and I'm actually very busy). I'd have to write it out in dots. Its a beautiful set (to my mind anyway), I recon with the first one going this way then the other going the other. You'll love it. I'll be in contact.
As for the metronome. I struggled for ages. All it did was make me feel totally useless. A coordination thing. Getting more and more uptight, trying harder and harder and stuffing up the harder I tried. The solution for me was a wobbly stool on a tile floor to get my foot (on the wrung of the stool) to keep the beat - isn't that what all ITM musician do anyway? It was heaps easier to have my own internal beat than an externally one. Also took up playing djembe. I recon it is far easier to play along with the great ones that really have the pulse and flow down pat than a metronome. ITM is about spontenaity, pulse and flow - a metronome is counter it, except as Will says as a guide to bpm.
Cheers
But Scotty, we're sculpting sound when we play tunes, not framing a bathroom. *grin* A carpenter may need a measuring tape, but a sculptor needs a good eye and an instinct for what's beneath the surface.
I did use a metronome early on to keep my rhythm from wandering, and I'm sure it helped at that point in my playing. But as soon as I could play at cd speed and not make a complete mess of it, I put the metronome away and followed the recorded pulse of Kevin Burke, Joe Cooley, Bobby Casey, Liz Carrol, Frankie Gavin, etc, or the steadiest hand in the circle of live players.
I once put an old pendulum style metronome to good use by pasting a photo of an eyeball on the tip of the ticker stick, setting it to adagio, and letting it swing hypnotically at the front of the class while I gave an uninspired mid-term book report on the uses of allegory in The Green Knight. I still think it was the eye that got me the passing grade.....
Well, I'll admit that I don't personally play with a metronome unless I have to keep to a very specific time for one reason or another (ie: playing a set for a stepdancer). However, I don't want anyone to feel that it's an awful thing to practise with a metronome (some people can't feel the pulse, some people have trouble staying slow, whatever) because it simply isn't, any more than using printed music as a tool is a terrible thing. Especially when you're first getting started and need something to help keep your speed slow and steady, which IS an important skill to have...
I work with a lot of beginners. One of the hardest things for many of them to do is learn to tap their foot while they're playing -- I don't know why, it just is. Sometimes they'll even tap their foot to the speed they're playing instead of the other way round, and their foot will lose the speed they're playing and get off the beat even though they're playing at the same steady speed! I have to laugh even while I sympathize. (And empathize!) For folks with this kind of trouble, a metronome can be very helpful to abet internalizing the steadiness that is the hallmark of a good player.
As an experienced player can take the dots and play an Irish tune with the right feel and swing, so can an experienced player play with a metronome and get the same thing...although they may find the metronome a bit distracting and/or annoying.
Like sheet music or a different brand of string or a good bow or a new flute, it's not a religion. It's not a life philosophy. It's just another tool that you may choose to use or not, as you wish.
"A carpenter may need a measuring tape, but a sculptor needs a good eye and an instinct for what's beneath the surface."
The carpenter uses a measuring tape to keep everything all squared up -- I know carpenters who can eye a length and be within 1/8 of an inch of the correct measurement...and even those carpenters will still measure so they're not 1/8 of an inch off. (They add up.) A sculptor may have that same good eye, but doesn't need to have everything squared. However, a truly good sculptor can go on for QUITE some time about correct proportions making a good sculpture (please don't ask me how I know this, I try to forget those parties), and you can bet that they have correct proportions in mind in at least an informal way, even if they're not thinking "proportion".
Even I do, when I'm designing an embroidery or a costume or even the entire costume design for a play -- don't get me started on the play's parabolae or the flow of the costuming design as it fits into the play's script, which is what proportion translates out into for costumers.
So I personally think Scott's statement stands up well enough.
There is nothing wrong with people using metronomes or sheetmusic for that matter if they want to. It isn't a matter of right or wrong or one or other way being better or worse.
How one goes about things: technically or artisticly is how one goes about things.
Just so long as each way is accommodating of other points of view. There are as many subterly different points of view as there are contributors here. Why not just recognise that there are many more ways than one to approach the music as there are many ways to approaching life. Personal preference and freedom is the key. I'm all for experimentation and going about things the way that is right for you.
Cheers
ok,as with everything else,what works for you...etc etc - the point i lost in my ramble was that metronomes are not the universal panacea for poor rhythm and i would rather try other methods like using your lugs and listening to other players who have stronger rhythm than myself.
i'm not going to go for the role of 'metronome-finder general' so for those who do like them,good for you and you're a better man than i am,gunga din.
as for carpenters and tapes,i'll bung that in with my own long list of dubious analogies.that last is said with a smile,by the way.
see you on the click track!
My husband has been a club and radio dj for almost 20 years and is one of the few dj's I know of who still beat mixes on a regular basis. In the last few years, he's been doing re-mixes, too. He HATES working with tracks with live drummers -- because they're always off, speeding up, slowing down... *grin*
The Copperplate reels came into this thread - I'm not exactly sure why apart from the fact that they're great session tunes! I've posted the New Copperplate as the Old Copperplate is already there - they go nicely together with the new one normally being played first.
"A sculptor may have that same good eye, but doesn't need to have everything squared."
Zina, you made my point for me, even while you were arguing against it. All I'm saying is that playing music doesn't rely on perfect, precise unwavering rhythm as much as you might think. As Yo-Yo Ma says, the goal isn't perfection, it's expression. Music doesn't need to have everything squared. So I disagree with an earlier post--it *is* possible to develop a rocksolid rhythm without a metronome, at least for most people. I've taught people to play music on and off since 1974, and nearly every student I've had responded more quickly to following the rhythm set by another player than that set by a metronome. For their solo practice at home, I encourage them to play along with the tape of the lesson. I've offered metronomes as an option, but no one ever said they preferred one over the tape.
I have no problem with anyone using any of the various tools of the trade (as I said, I own a (rather dusty) metronome), but Scotty's aphorism is based on what strikes me as a false premise--that we are "carpenters." As a fiddler I may do a lot of sawing (groan), but the end result I'm aiming for is *not* a plumb, square, well-built, practical wall or door frame. I'm a wood carver, and the measuring tape languishes in its holster.
Harmon's tongue-in-cheek stolen counter-aphorism:
"A musician without a metronome is like a fish without a bicycle." Grin.
Here in Helena, we have an excellent local father/son duo on guitar, mandolin, keyboard, and other instruments. I like the name they go by, as deliberate, caring, expressive musicians--Watercarvers Guild. For me, playing music is indeed like trying to carve water.
Since this thread started out about tempos...one of the few good things about playing too fast (especially trying to keep up at a session) is that it can inspire flights of out-of-control wildness that will take your music to highly expressive places it might not otherwise go. This is probably a risky exercise for people just starting out on their instruments, but more experienced players can dance along that edge between innovation and disaster with a little more confidence. A little excess speed sometimes works as just the push you need to move beyond your comfort zone and revitalize your playing. Of course the reverse is also true...slowing down sometimes opens up space to try things you wouldn't have time for at faster tempos.
In striving for solid timing, bear in mind that difference between 120 and 125 beats per minute is .020 seconds. The metronome will measure that out for you with incredible accuracy.
Glad you mentioned bathrooms, Will. It seems to me that you are missing the potty, er,.... I mean point. Aim about 6 inches to the left.... (grin). The purpose of the metronome is not to keep everything 'squared up' , but to keep everything 'regular', i.e. spaced apart by a uniform amount. The carpenters tape helps to ensure that joists are spaced on a regular basis as well. There are a lot of things that one might practice with a metronome, exercises, arpeggios, etc., that one likely wouldn't practice with a
recording, or with accompaniament.
From an artistic point of view, even the best of players have enough fluctuation in their time that they fail to sound like a machine. There are few greater pleasures than listening to a group with exeptional timing. They got that way by aiming for perfection (i.e. about 6" to the left).
Heh, heh. heh. Oh, beam up to your planet Scotty! Thanks for your sense of humor.
"Squared up" was Zina's contribution to this thread, not mine. I'm not arguing--nor have I ever--that a metronome won't help some people get or stay "regular" (geesh, the things we end up saying here , but I keep hearing you and Zina suggest that a metronome is the best or even only way (Zina: "There is something that metronome work will help you to do that you really can't work on without one...the ability to have a rocksolid tempo that never changes....")
And I heartily disagree. Lots of good players have nailed their rhythm without ever using a metronome. Rhythm is an innate human talent; some may feel it more strongly than others, but it's there. The reason a good metronome has such fine distinctions between 125 and 120 bpm (or 120 and 122 bpm) is precisely because humans can hear/feel that fine a difference! In fact, one of my larger frustrations with most metronomes is that they don't split the beat fine enough for my sensibilities.
Also, aiming for perfection can actually be harmful to some people's performance. It's one thing to be careful and attentive, quite another to seek perfection. If it works for you, fine, but be careful to ascribe someone else's success to it, unless they've told you that's their approach. I like the fact that the quote about the goal being expression, not perfection, comes from Yo-Yo Ma, one of the more precise, "perfect" string players on the planet. Sometimes we confuse the end result with the means.
Yep, shared great timing is a joy to hear, and in my experience it comes from playing together a lot, listening to one another, and helping each other get in the zone. But when I focus on making it "perfect," I and my cohorts in crime usually encounter tensions and unrealistic expectations that block access to the zone. For me, great timing happens when everybody plays in a state of alert relaxation, far removed from ambitions of perfection.
Well, a metronome does these things for me: 1) when I'm practising, let's me know my tempo is rock solid (and I'm a dancer from way back - I have an intuitive/excellent sense of rhythm - but I'm not primarily a musician, and when I start playing for dancing I have a great sense of rhythm at tempos that are comfortable for me - so a tune will really swing but not necessarily be good for dancing, even if what I'm playing is only the rhythm, and I've got fiddles playing the melodies) at speeds that are good for dancers, 2) a corollary - let's me know where the problems are at speeds that are not comfortable for me - because they won't work with a metronome, so I have to go fix them. And if I'm not using a metronome I'll only THINK they work at fast speeds, but in truth the tempo juggles, 4) I'm really good at playing thru mistakes - my family's a bunch of hams, and stage fright has never been a problem - but a metronome helps make sure that I'm comfortable enough with a tune that even with the mistakes the beat is still there - as you know, the d*** things are relentless, 3) when the band is practising, we can start with a given metronome tempo, and if we know a tune down pat it'll swing along at that tempo and tho we can't hear the metronome it'll be right there - I can watch it and the beat is right on and the tune swings. But if we don't know a tune down pat, or if as a band we have hard parts, the tune may have a swing, but that tune may have slowed down 4 beats per, and not be nearly as much fun to dance to, even if it does have a swing. So not being able to stay on the metronome tells us we don't know it well enough yet. And having the "swing" just isn't all we need for dancing - we need the swing at the right tempo. So I find it a useful tool in getting dance tempos well.
I found Zina's comment about drummer's interesting. My brother is a professional musician, and he, too, has commented about some drummers' tempos varying - but he claims it's because - see above - they don't know the material. They've come to "rehearsal" without practising first. He finds it - annoying. But he says it's true of all the musicians - if they haven't done their homework, they can't keep the rhythm going.
So I guess I'm with everybody - yeah, a tune will eventually swing at a tempo I'm comfortable with without a metronome - I remember when tunes first started sounding like dance music for me at half the speed at which I really would want to dance to them. But to actually test whether I could play for dancing - well, the metronome was a good guide. If I couldn't play with it and make it swing at danceable tempos, I wasn't there yet.
Oh yeah, it is also true, I think, for dancing, that there is a sort of "minimum dance tempo" (which varies with the dance and the tunes, but I do think there's kind of a rock bottom tempo that's comfortable, and also that it may be different for a dance performance group), and that above that, it is better to play at a tempo which one can keep the rhythm on and swing, than to try to play too fast and wobble. whew!
..... a metronome is a crutch. Might be helpful in certain situations to work with, but you have to pay much attention to get rid of it properly after the lesson is done or you
Well, let's not go taking me too literally again, Will. You don't want to go annoying the pig...*grin* I said "will HELP you" to do those things, not that a metronome will magically whip a regular pulse into you. Almost every teacher I've heard, seen, or taken classes or workshops from has talked about the importance of a steady rhythm, and almost all of them have suggested working with a metronome when you're a beginner. Who am I to argue with them?
Where did I say a metronome was the only way? No place. What about people who don't HAVE other players to play with? The metronome is a reasonable substitute if you have pulse problems and can't play fast enough to keep up with most recordings.
As for whether music needs to be "squared up" or not, a good classical musician can find the passion in Bach and the precision in Mahler at the same time s/he finds the vice versa. I think the same about ITM -- it's good to have expression AND good technical skills. What the hell. Aim high.
Of course you have to learn to play without a metronome. I'm not suggesting that you take a metronome with you everywhere you go and play and have never suggested it. All I'm saying is that metronomes can be helpful tools if you have rhythm problems.
You often don't have the opportunity to *practise* (as opposed to "play") regularly with other players or teachers, so if the pulse is a trouble spot and you want to work it, sometimes the metronome can be helpful that way.
Don't like working with metronomes and have pulse problems? (Of course there's always Beano, but...) Don't use one -- find another way round your problem. Don't care and have pulse problems? Use a metronome. I thought I was pretty clear about it. Guess I wasn't.
One more time: it's just a tool. Use it, or don't use it, it's up to you. I think either way is just fine.
Zina, say it again, for me, will ya.... You and everyone else is right except for those who don't agree with us. (Corrollory: On a multiple choice quizz, the answer is always "c", unless, of course, the answer isn't "c", in which case the answer is something else.)
Will, to be beamed anywhere, climb into that white porcelain thingy, and reach up and pull the handle.... my transporter is in the shop for repairs. *grin*
Um, er, ITM content? Every try to tune your fiddle by listening to the dial tone on your telephone? My phone is pretty close to F-natural...
LOL! Just got this image of everything I've ever put in one of them porcelain thingies being molecularly beamed to the desks of some advanced civilization near Alpha Centauri.... ;-D Now I know why my seat says "Bemis" on it (Beam us...get it? Groan!). And who knew that Kohler and American Standard were responsible for all those crop circles....
Actually, Zina and I just had a little email exchange and acknowledged that we're both trying to mediate this discussion so that people who do use a metronome won't feel inferior for doing so, and people who don't use a metronome won't feel inferior for doing so.
So in short: metronomes are handy, there are other options, do whatever suits you best, and otherwise lets keep our dogma on leashes.
Poor Doug, he'll probably never risk another post! He asked for tune tempo suggestions and found out we couldn't even agree on how to take the patient's pulse!
In the rare event I use a Metronome, I set so that it's playing the downbeats in 4/4 tunes. If a reel or hornpipe is played in perfect sync with a metronome for every eight note it will have no swing. No swing is a bad thing, work on playing with a syncopated rhythm. Some say it's a A>AA>A but I think it's a little less wooden than that, it's a thing you get from learning from good players by ear & every player does it different. It's really a matter of personal taste. Jigs also have a syncopated rhythm, I set the metronome so it clicks on the first & fourth eighth notes, . The most emphasis (length) is given to the first note of the three the second is the least & the third is somewhere in between the first & second. Think "Dowd-le-lee Deed-le-lee" But keep the metronome clicks on the "Dowd" & "Deed". Use the metronome to keep the tempo not the rhythm, Like booze, a metronome can be an excellent servant but a horrible master.
thanx Brad for this: the metronome helps keeping tempo but not rhythm ....
.... and the dialing tone on the phone is a great tuning device! in Germany it is an exact 440 Hz A (Mr. Bell was not very well known here and Mr. Reis, Mr. Siemens and their fellow engineers surely met with the general postmasters family at some Beethoven concerts or Wagner operas) ... therefore we call it "amtliches (=official) A" ..... poor Doug - but didn
Good points Brad. A friend of mine told me of a little mnemonic she uses with her beginners to help them get the rhythm of jigs. It's "rashers 'n' sausages" (apologies to the Muslims). It's a bit of a tongue twister but it definitely conjures up a jig. I reckon a reel is in 2/2 tho' not in 4/4. I always notate reels in cut time. (that's the C with a vertical line through it). It should sound like ONE-a-and-a TWO-a-and-a. I have heard bodran players doing ONE-two-three-four ONE-two-three-four. Look out, the indians (Native Americans) are on the warpath!
Great discussion thread, all who've posted here! To put in my own 2 cents worth: if you don't like the mechanical quality of metronomes, try walking and humming your tune before practising it. I've often come to a point where I can feel the music more by doing this, and when I next play that music it works better. It also helps me to memorize better (I'm a primarily a reading type of musician, more comfortable with using print before I risk playing by ear) - but I'm working on improving my trust in my ears. I guess all I'm saying is: different people use different ways of learning, we've got gifts in various proportions.
Metronomes? I haven't seen one of those at a session in Ireland for some time. Perhaps they are the metronomes of Zurich.
Mention has been made of reels and jigs but what about all the rest? Here they are in the (rough) order of frequency you are likely to hear them in a session where I come from.
Reel
Double Jig
Hornpipe
Barn dance
Polka
Waltz/Mazurka
Slow Air
Set Dance
March
Strathspey
Highland
Slip Jig
Slide
Single Jig
I agree with many of the comments above that the speed depends very much on the feel of the tune. There are some reels that I like to play hell for leather and others that need a more sedate treatment.
I would also comment that the music is dance music and if you are playing for dancers they like it to be lively. This is especially true of reels and jigs. Solo dancers on the other hand, dancing the likes of a hornpipe or set dance, prefer the music to be really slow so that they can get all the fancy steps in.
In summary - no cast iron rules apply to the tempo for Irish music in any of it's forms. It just depends on who yer with and where yer playin!
tune tempos?
tune tempos?
Would anyone like to suggest tempos (metronome markings) for jigs,reels hornpipes,slipjig etc..... I know this will be very general but for a beginer it gives me a guide line to shoot for. If not a general idea please let me know the tempos that you play and the general area you are from. Thanks Doug Barr
# Posted on August 7th 2002 by dbarr15@aol.com
Re: tune tempos?
Good question, it really depends on the tune & the mood of the session your at. The only place you'll find it set in stone is at Feis (dance competitions) where the dancers will ask you to play at a certain tempo & that's usually only for 20% of the tunes. Here's some general guidelines that I think work
Reels 90 to 110BPM
Jigs (all kinds) 80 to 100 bpm
Hornpipes 80 to 100
I think it's better to err on the slow & swingy side than the fast & tripping all over yourself side. There's no shame in playing slower, I focus on the actual sound I'm producing when playing slowly. Sometimes when I'm playing fast I'm just shooting out the notes to get them all out in order, but I sacrificing swing, ornaments, variations etc when I do that. I suggest the time honored advice of listening to a lot of players & feeling it out from there. Not just recordings either, you can get more answers to your questions from a good player in your hometown than you can get from a CD of your favorite artist.
Hope this helps,
# Posted on August 7th 2002 by B Rad
Re: tune tempos?
Doug, take what I'm about to say with a very large grain of salt. And then let me run on at the mouth after I answer your query on your terms.
In his collections of tunes, Brendan Breathnach gives the following tempos for different types of tunes.
Double jigs, dotted quarter note = 127 beats per minute.
Single jigs, dotted quarter = 137 bpm
Slip jig, dotted quarter = 144 bpm
Reels, quarter = 224 bpm
Hornpipe, quarter = 180 bpm
Now for the didactic rant. These tempos seem fast to me. Yes, the sessions I play at do sometimes roll through jigs and reels at a good clip, and sometimes dancers ask for a higher tempo than I would play a given tune, given my choice. But some of the best sessions I've heard (with some "name" players) have consistently played significantly slower than Breathnach's recommended tempos. I've only been to sessions in the States and Canada, not Ireland, though some of these were peopled by players from Ireland, including a number of recording stars. On most tunes, they *all* went slower than Breathnach's numbers.
There are damn few absolutes or certainties or constants in ITM, and tempo (like most of the qualities in trad music) is something that is best left to sort itself out through sheer playing. In the early going, you'll want to go slower than "normal" (whatever that is) because otherwise your playing will suffer. It's better to play with a solid rhythm and tone than to sacrifce either for speed. And then as your ability allows you to speed up, you'll find "natural" tempos for most tunes, a pace that just seems to fit the pulse and feel of the tune. So it's less a matter of a tempo to "shoot for" than listening to the tune and letting it set the tempo. You'll also find that many tunes work well at several tempos--slow versions of jigs, say, in the 80 to 96 bpm range, and then ripping fast versions of the same jigs up around 160 bpm. In twenty years of playing ITM, though, I've never worried about putting a number on tempo. It usually works itself out--when the circle is full of energy, we play up tempo. When we're all lazy after a meal or too much beer, the tempo slows. Sometimes, a player will say, "Ya know, that one sounds a lot better when we slow it down and really swing it." Or "Geez, we crawled through that one--can we pick up the pace so the dancers don't look like zombies?"
Of course, sitting in at a session and finding every tune going by faster than you can play is tremendously frustrating, and so lots of people focus on speed. My (unsolicited and probably unwanted) advice is to strive instead for an effortless sound, and be patient. Speed will come, and if you're relaxed and humming the "effortless" mantra, it won't even feel fast when it does come.
Hope this helps.
P.S. When I play with someone just learning this music, we slow *way* down. And rather than moaning to myself that "this person needs to work on speeding up," I think "how much lift and swing can I bring to my playing at these slower tempos?" Ultimately, getting an authentic trad sound is all about lift and pulse and timing, which has little or nothing to do with tempo.
# Posted on August 7th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: tune tempos?
Well, you can't say much more than Will and Brad have said! Do really try to internalize what they've said above, Doug -- there are some really important concepts in there.
One of the hallmarks of a beginner is that they generally try to play faster (usually through nervousness!) than they can actually play. You'll prove yourself to have taste and discretion by sticking to a speed slightly slower than you can actually play.
Something I've found myself, Doug, is that the players you want to emulate, the ones you should admire, the ones who are truly good players, will have Will's and Brad's attitude about playing at slower tempos with beginners. A truly good player will be able to find the heart of the tune no matter how slow a tempo it's played at.
Zina
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: tune tempos?
general advice: slow down a bit .... I admit this advice is given because at many fast playing events I get lost, but anyway: if I listen to recordings of these events the other players managed better than me to play quick&dirty but don
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by crannog
Re: tune tempos?
Well said by all! One of the most suprising things I found is how slowly people played their tunes in Miltown Malbay; James Kelly especially. Taking that lesson to heart, I learned The Old Copperplate and practiced it for about 3 days, very slowly, with a metronome. When the guys at session pulled out that tune last night I joined in and found they were playing at least double the speed I had practiced it at. But instead of dropping out, I found that I could keep up and play the without any problem.
I guess what I learned is that if you play well slowly, playing fast isn't a problem. I've heard that for years and never believed it, and my playing suffered for it. Now I'm a believer!
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: tune tempos?
And with heaps more life and fire than when you're just plain racing it. Wow! Which Old Copperplate was it? The one that goes that way, or the one that goes taht way? Luv em both as a set. I have them on tape with the comment that they're the same tune only different. Fabulous.
Cheers
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by Jill
Plenty of opportunities for layering (or not) too.
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by Jill
Re: tune tempos?
I think it's all been said and very well too. I just want to endorse the points about finding the speed to suit particular tunes - there's no standard tempo to fit all tunes. If in any doubt, reduce the speed and you're more likely to find that elusive dra
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by Bannerman
Re: tune tempos?
I am a novice player, and have been guilty of thinking that a tune sounds "Irish" if you play it very fast. I have gone back to square one and have been concentrating on the proper accents at a much slower speed. I find that it makes playing less stressful, and the overall sound is more pleasing to the ear. So, I will add my amen to what is said in all of the previous responses, and wish I had read them a year ago.
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by pearse
Re: tune tempos?
I think it's interesting to check out old recordings of Irish music: the tempos are often much slower than what's seen today.
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by glauber
Shooting rats in the dark
That's a quaint term that I've heard for those times when we play too fast and are just trying to hit the notes. Not a good time to have the recorder on.
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by Crusty
Re: tune tempos?
Martin Hayes says that a tune should be played at the speed that allows you to play it correctly ad work on it. So, learning a tune, one should play it slow until it can play it without any sort of problem in bowing (or breathing, ecc).
# Posted on August 8th 2002 by nutsmuggler
Re: tune tempos?
As I mentioned in my post above I unfortunately couldn
# Posted on August 9th 2002 by crannog
Re: tune tempos?
Geeeeez, Volker, I thought I'd for fun go and see what came up under "mantra"... wow, some of those posts are amazing! Well worth the re-read...but doesn't that seem like such a long time ago?! I've never really gone back to read our old threads...I can see I'll have to start doing that regularly, some of the advice Will and Brad and everyone else gives is really really good, and I should remind myself of it more often.
Zina
# Posted on August 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: tune tempos?
My advice to those people practising with metronomes is to lose them unless you wish to sound like a computer. Irish music is rarely played exactly on the beat but usually slightly behind the beat. Listen to the Joe Burke and Andy McGann recordings or the Frankie Gavin/Paul Brock "Tribute to Joe Cooley" album as prime examples of this. This sounds quite laid-back but if you try playing along you'll find it's not slow. Some people play ahead of the beat e.g. De Dannan, Dervish. This gives the music a more urgent and exciting feel but can become tiring to listen to after a while.
So it's not about speed, it's about feel (unless you are playing for dancers where you need to play at a danceable speed).
I agree with Will about letting the tune set the tempo. Some tunes suit a slow tempo, others a faster tempo. Some tunes can stand to be played fast or slow, although the character of the tune may be markedly different.
Tunes have their own internal rhythyms as well (a fact unknown to most bodhran players). A good player will bring these out.
So forget bpm. It's important to remember that music is made up of phrases not beats or bars.
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by milesnagopaleen
Re: tune tempos?
Hey Jill!
I've never heard another version of the Old Copperplate. Please post one if you can. The Old Copperplate I was mentioning is the same one posted on thesession.org (posted by Brad Maloney). I agree there are a ton of layering opportunities in that tune! Speaking of which, how is that 'layering technique' going with you? Anything interesting come from it?
I don't know if anyone has mentioned a wonderful piece of software called (appropriatley enough) 'The Amazing Slow Downer'. It does what it says, and keeps the pitch of the tune the same. Works with CDs as well as MP3s on your computer. If anyone really want's to practice slow, but practise with the best players, this is the software for you. Mac and PC versions available.
http://www.ronimusic.com/
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: tune tempos?
There is something that metronome work will help you to do that you really can't work on without one: one of the things that all the really good players admire in another player (and in themselves) is the ability to have a rocksolid tempo that never changes unless the player wants it to do so.
As the great players always say, you should never turn down the opportunity to work with another tool.
Zina
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: tune tempos?
Sorry Zina, I can' agree. I think that you have to feel the pulse of the music within yourself. I don't see how playing along with a metronome will help as by the time you hear the tick it's already too late to play the note. In order to play along with a metronome you have to anticipate it and if you can do this you don't need a metronome.
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by milesnagopaleen
Re: tune tempos?
Well, lots of people can't feel a steady pulse, and the metronome helps them to feel what that's like. Obviously, you can, so we'll always look to hear a steady beat from you, then! The rest of us pulse challenged can keep working with our metronomes. Isn't it a good thing that there's all kinds of ways for people to work?
Zina
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: tune tempos?
Zina,
I don't believe for one minute that you're "pulse challenged" and you a dance teacher!!!!
Chris
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by milesnagopaleen
Re: tune tempos?
i've never used a metronome in a trad context so i remain open to charges of pontificating about that which i've never experienced but here's my view anyway: metronomes in general are a bad thing.
there,i've said it.
i only use them as a last resort if i'm faced with some horrible classical/contemporary passage.
if you're trying to play a phrase/passage that you can sing/hum/internalise or whatever then the metronome is the antithesis of the desired result.assuming you practise enough to be capable of playing with a mechanical beat(and this takes a LOT of practice) the end result will not be sympathetic when playing with other humans - and indeed on your own.i cannot explain the physics of why this should be but that's my experience anyway.
i can offer the dubious analogy of the speech therapy sessions when i was a kid.the therapist who first saw me got me to talk with a metronome beating away on the table - this resulted in my being able to talk like some b-movie sci-fi robot.it was n't pretty to hear and it fooled nobody.i agree that you must feel the pulse yourself which can take practice as well.i know there's some tunes about which i feel ok as far the pulse goes(if not the rest of the caboodle) and there's others which utterly defy me so far,ha ha! i can't say why but i do believe that the metronome way is a blind alley.
following on from this,here's chairman dave's thoughts on slow playing: i think it's a good idea to slow down a new tune to what feels comfortable but after you've got the notes then you have to play phrases and ultra slow playing just will not allow you to do this.or so i think.having said that,practising something too fast and too slow may give good results but there's slow and there's slow.
one of my teachers once told me to practise beyond my limits and to play within them.i might not always agree with that -it's a good feeling to be on the edge sometimes - but i found that advice helpful.
for me,the metronome is the devil's tool (as in implement,not the other!!) anyway,'god bless us all' said tiny tim...
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by biggus dave
Re: tune tempos?
I have to confess. I have no trouble keeping a solid beat and tempo going, solo or in a group, and I can get enough lift into a tune that dancers quit milling around and are actually moved to dance when I play. But I find it really unpleasant to play with a metronome. I used to take this as a sign that my rhythm wasn't as good as I thought it was, but after 20 years and playing with many good musicians, no one has ever complained about my rhythm. (Perhaps they're just suffering in silence.)
It's not that I *can't* play with a metronome, but that mechanical beat just doesn't inspire me to swing. It's a lock step, not a pulse, and it doesn't work for me.
So when I want to focus on the beat, I'll either sit next to a good drummer, or--mostly to work out complex passages--I play along with my music transcription software. The program creates a sound file as I type in the tune, and I can set the "swing" factor to the degree I want, and then jam along.
I don't mean to knock metronomes or people who like them. Just offering an alternative that works better for me. I do keep a metronome around, but I use it primarily to hear what 110 bpm sounds like so I can play hornpipes for dancers.
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: tune tempos?
There are a lot of ways to use a metronome. A musician without a metronome is like a carpenter without a measuring tape.
Scotty
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by scottythefiddler
Re: tune tempos?
Kevin
I'm really into sharing what I've got and I'd love to share the other Old Copperplate through 'the session'. I saw it wasn't on the tunes list but its got to be common and I don't do ABC's (and I'm actually very busy). I'd have to write it out in dots. Its a beautiful set (to my mind anyway), I recon with the first one going this way then the other going the other. You'll love it. I'll be in contact.
As for the metronome. I struggled for ages. All it did was make me feel totally useless. A coordination thing. Getting more and more uptight, trying harder and harder and stuffing up the harder I tried. The solution for me was a wobbly stool on a tile floor to get my foot (on the wrung of the stool) to keep the beat - isn't that what all ITM musician do anyway? It was heaps easier to have my own internal beat than an externally one. Also took up playing djembe. I recon it is far easier to play along with the great ones that really have the pulse and flow down pat than a metronome. ITM is about spontenaity, pulse and flow - a metronome is counter it, except as Will says as a guide to bpm.
Cheers
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Jill
Re: tune tempos?
But Scotty, we're sculpting sound when we play tunes, not framing a bathroom. *grin* A carpenter may need a measuring tape, but a sculptor needs a good eye and an instinct for what's beneath the surface.
I did use a metronome early on to keep my rhythm from wandering, and I'm sure it helped at that point in my playing. But as soon as I could play at cd speed and not make a complete mess of it, I put the metronome away and followed the recorded pulse of Kevin Burke, Joe Cooley, Bobby Casey, Liz Carrol, Frankie Gavin, etc, or the steadiest hand in the circle of live players.
I once put an old pendulum style metronome to good use by pasting a photo of an eyeball on the tip of the ticker stick, setting it to adagio, and letting it swing hypnotically at the front of the class while I gave an uninspired mid-term book report on the uses of allegory in The Green Knight. I still think it was the eye that got me the passing grade.....
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Will Harmon
The Great Metronome Non-Controversy
Well, I'll admit that I don't personally play with a metronome unless I have to keep to a very specific time for one reason or another (ie: playing a set for a stepdancer). However, I don't want anyone to feel that it's an awful thing to practise with a metronome (some people can't feel the pulse, some people have trouble staying slow, whatever) because it simply isn't, any more than using printed music as a tool is a terrible thing. Especially when you're first getting started and need something to help keep your speed slow and steady, which IS an important skill to have...
I work with a lot of beginners. One of the hardest things for many of them to do is learn to tap their foot while they're playing -- I don't know why, it just is. Sometimes they'll even tap their foot to the speed they're playing instead of the other way round, and their foot will lose the speed they're playing and get off the beat even though they're playing at the same steady speed! I have to laugh even while I sympathize. (And empathize!) For folks with this kind of trouble, a metronome can be very helpful to abet internalizing the steadiness that is the hallmark of a good player.
As an experienced player can take the dots and play an Irish tune with the right feel and swing, so can an experienced player play with a metronome and get the same thing...although they may find the metronome a bit distracting and/or annoying.
Like sheet music or a different brand of string or a good bow or a new flute, it's not a religion. It's not a life philosophy. It's just another tool that you may choose to use or not, as you wish.
Zina
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
P.S.
"A carpenter may need a measuring tape, but a sculptor needs a good eye and an instinct for what's beneath the surface."
The carpenter uses a measuring tape to keep everything all squared up -- I know carpenters who can eye a length and be within 1/8 of an inch of the correct measurement...and even those carpenters will still measure so they're not 1/8 of an inch off. (They add up.) A sculptor may have that same good eye, but doesn't need to have everything squared. However, a truly good sculptor can go on for QUITE some time about correct proportions making a good sculpture (please don't ask me how I know this, I try to forget those parties), and you can bet that they have correct proportions in mind in at least an informal way, even if they're not thinking "proportion".
Even I do, when I'm designing an embroidery or a costume or even the entire costume design for a play -- don't get me started on the play's parabolae or the flow of the costuming design as it fits into the play's script, which is what proportion translates out into for costumers.
So I personally think Scott's statement stands up well enough.
zls
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: tune tempos?
There is nothing wrong with people using metronomes or sheetmusic for that matter if they want to. It isn't a matter of right or wrong or one or other way being better or worse.
How one goes about things: technically or artisticly is how one goes about things.
Just so long as each way is accommodating of other points of view. There are as many subterly different points of view as there are contributors here. Why not just recognise that there are many more ways than one to approach the music as there are many ways to approaching life. Personal preference and freedom is the key. I'm all for experimentation and going about things the way that is right for you.
Cheers
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by Jill
Re: tune tempos?
ok,as with everything else,what works for you...etc etc - the point i lost in my ramble was that metronomes are not the universal panacea for poor rhythm and i would rather try other methods like using your lugs and listening to other players who have stronger rhythm than myself.
i'm not going to go for the role of 'metronome-finder general' so for those who do like them,good for you and you're a better man than i am,gunga din.
as for carpenters and tapes,i'll bung that in with my own long list of dubious analogies.that last is said with a smile,by the way.
see you on the click track!
# Posted on August 11th 2002 by biggus dave
I hate my metronome
The damn thing has never learned to play in time with me!
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by glauber
Re: tune tempos?
Nor me!
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by Jill
Re: tune tempos?
My husband has been a club and radio dj for almost 20 years and is one of the few dj's I know of who still beat mixes on a regular basis. In the last few years, he's been doing re-mixes, too. He HATES working with tracks with live drummers -- because they're always off, speeding up, slowing down... *grin*
zls
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: tune tempos?
The Copperplate reels came into this thread - I'm not exactly sure why apart from the fact that they're great session tunes! I've posted the New Copperplate as the Old Copperplate is already there - they go nicely together with the new one normally being played first.
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by Bannerman
Re: tune tempos?
"A sculptor may have that same good eye, but doesn't need to have everything squared."
All I'm saying is that playing music doesn't rely on perfect, precise unwavering rhythm as much as you might think. As Yo-Yo Ma says, the goal isn't perfection, it's expression. Music doesn't need to have everything squared. So I disagree with an earlier post--it *is* possible to develop a rocksolid rhythm without a metronome, at least for most people. I've taught people to play music on and off since 1974, and nearly every student I've had responded more quickly to following the rhythm set by another player than that set by a metronome. For their solo practice at home, I encourage them to play along with the tape of the lesson. I've offered metronomes as an option, but no one ever said they preferred one over the tape.
Zina, you made my point for me, even while you were arguing against it.
I have no problem with anyone using any of the various tools of the trade (as I said, I own a (rather dusty) metronome), but Scotty's aphorism is based on what strikes me as a false premise--that we are "carpenters." As a fiddler I may do a lot of sawing (groan), but the end result I'm aiming for is *not* a plumb, square, well-built, practical wall or door frame. I'm a wood carver, and the measuring tape languishes in its holster.
Harmon's tongue-in-cheek stolen counter-aphorism:
"A musician without a metronome is like a fish without a bicycle." Grin.
Here in Helena, we have an excellent local father/son duo on guitar, mandolin, keyboard, and other instruments. I like the name they go by, as deliberate, caring, expressive musicians--Watercarvers Guild. For me, playing music is indeed like trying to carve water.
Since this thread started out about tempos...one of the few good things about playing too fast (especially trying to keep up at a session) is that it can inspire flights of out-of-control wildness that will take your music to highly expressive places it might not otherwise go. This is probably a risky exercise for people just starting out on their instruments, but more experienced players can dance along that edge between innovation and disaster with a little more confidence. A little excess speed sometimes works as just the push you need to move beyond your comfort zone and revitalize your playing. Of course the reverse is also true...slowing down sometimes opens up space to try things you wouldn't have time for at faster tempos.
To each his/her own....
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: tune tempos?
In striving for solid timing, bear in mind that difference between 120 and 125 beats per minute is .020 seconds. The metronome will measure that out for you with incredible accuracy.
Glad you mentioned bathrooms, Will. It seems to me that you are missing the potty, er,.... I mean point. Aim about 6 inches to the left.... (grin). The purpose of the metronome is not to keep everything 'squared up' , but to keep everything 'regular', i.e. spaced apart by a uniform amount. The carpenters tape helps to ensure that joists are spaced on a regular basis as well. There are a lot of things that one might practice with a metronome, exercises, arpeggios, etc., that one likely wouldn't practice with a
recording, or with accompaniament.
From an artistic point of view, even the best of players have enough fluctuation in their time that they fail to sound like a machine. There are few greater pleasures than listening to a group with exeptional timing. They got that way by aiming for perfection (i.e. about 6" to the left).
ducking and running
Scottytheflusher
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by scottythefiddler
Re: tune tempos?
Heh, heh. heh. Oh, beam up to your planet Scotty! Thanks for your sense of humor.
, but I keep hearing you and Zina suggest that a metronome is the best or even only way (Zina: "There is something that metronome work will help you to do that you really can't work on without one...the ability to have a rocksolid tempo that never changes....")
"Squared up" was Zina's contribution to this thread, not mine. I'm not arguing--nor have I ever--that a metronome won't help some people get or stay "regular" (geesh, the things we end up saying here
And I heartily disagree. Lots of good players have nailed their rhythm without ever using a metronome. Rhythm is an innate human talent; some may feel it more strongly than others, but it's there. The reason a good metronome has such fine distinctions between 125 and 120 bpm (or 120 and 122 bpm) is precisely because humans can hear/feel that fine a difference! In fact, one of my larger frustrations with most metronomes is that they don't split the beat fine enough for my sensibilities.
Also, aiming for perfection can actually be harmful to some people's performance. It's one thing to be careful and attentive, quite another to seek perfection. If it works for you, fine, but be careful to ascribe someone else's success to it, unless they've told you that's their approach. I like the fact that the quote about the goal being expression, not perfection, comes from Yo-Yo Ma, one of the more precise, "perfect" string players on the planet. Sometimes we confuse the end result with the means.
Yep, shared great timing is a joy to hear, and in my experience it comes from playing together a lot, listening to one another, and helping each other get in the zone. But when I focus on making it "perfect," I and my cohorts in crime usually encounter tensions and unrealistic expectations that block access to the zone. For me, great timing happens when everybody plays in a state of alert relaxation, far removed from ambitions of perfection.
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: tune tempos?
Oops...that was supposed to be "beam *me* up to your planet...."
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: tune tempos?
Well, a metronome does these things for me: 1) when I'm practising, let's me know my tempo is rock solid (and I'm a dancer from way back - I have an intuitive/excellent sense of rhythm - but I'm not primarily a musician, and when I start playing for dancing I have a great sense of rhythm at tempos that are comfortable for me - so a tune will really swing but not necessarily be good for dancing, even if what I'm playing is only the rhythm, and I've got fiddles playing the melodies) at speeds that are good for dancers, 2) a corollary - let's me know where the problems are at speeds that are not comfortable for me - because they won't work with a metronome, so I have to go fix them. And if I'm not using a metronome I'll only THINK they work at fast speeds, but in truth the tempo juggles, 4) I'm really good at playing thru mistakes - my family's a bunch of hams, and stage fright has never been a problem - but a metronome helps make sure that I'm comfortable enough with a tune that even with the mistakes the beat is still there - as you know, the d*** things are relentless, 3) when the band is practising, we can start with a given metronome tempo, and if we know a tune down pat it'll swing along at that tempo and tho we can't hear the metronome it'll be right there - I can watch it and the beat is right on and the tune swings. But if we don't know a tune down pat, or if as a band we have hard parts, the tune may have a swing, but that tune may have slowed down 4 beats per, and not be nearly as much fun to dance to, even if it does have a swing. So not being able to stay on the metronome tells us we don't know it well enough yet. And having the "swing" just isn't all we need for dancing - we need the swing at the right tempo. So I find it a useful tool in getting dance tempos well.
I found Zina's comment about drummer's interesting. My brother is a professional musician, and he, too, has commented about some drummers' tempos varying - but he claims it's because - see above - they don't know the material. They've come to "rehearsal" without practising first. He finds it - annoying. But he says it's true of all the musicians - if they haven't done their homework, they can't keep the rhythm going.
So I guess I'm with everybody - yeah, a tune will eventually swing at a tempo I'm comfortable with without a metronome - I remember when tunes first started sounding like dance music for me at half the speed at which I really would want to dance to them. But to actually test whether I could play for dancing - well, the metronome was a good guide. If I couldn't play with it and make it swing at danceable tempos, I wasn't there yet.
That's my experience -
CJ
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by cj
Oh - it turns out I can count, but not in order - 1), 2), 4), 3)? Well, I didn't teach math for nothing!
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by cj
Re: tune tempos?
Oh yeah, it is also true, I think, for dancing, that there is a sort of "minimum dance tempo" (which varies with the dance and the tunes, but I do think there's kind of a rock bottom tempo that's comfortable, and also that it may be different for a dance performance group), and that above that, it is better to play at a tempo which one can keep the rhythm on and swing, than to try to play too fast and wobble. whew!
CJ
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by cj
Heaven and hell with a metronome...
..... a metronome is a crutch. Might be helpful in certain situations to work with, but you have to pay much attention to get rid of it properly after the lesson is done or you
# Posted on August 12th 2002 by crannog
Re: tune tempos?
Well, let's not go taking me too literally again, Will. You don't want to go annoying the pig...*grin* I said "will HELP you" to do those things, not that a metronome will magically whip a regular pulse into you. Almost every teacher I've heard, seen, or taken classes or workshops from has talked about the importance of a steady rhythm, and almost all of them have suggested working with a metronome when you're a beginner. Who am I to argue with them?
Where did I say a metronome was the only way? No place. What about people who don't HAVE other players to play with? The metronome is a reasonable substitute if you have pulse problems and can't play fast enough to keep up with most recordings.
As for whether music needs to be "squared up" or not, a good classical musician can find the passion in Bach and the precision in Mahler at the same time s/he finds the vice versa. I think the same about ITM -- it's good to have expression AND good technical skills. What the hell. Aim high.
Of course you have to learn to play without a metronome. I'm not suggesting that you take a metronome with you everywhere you go and play and have never suggested it. All I'm saying is that metronomes can be helpful tools if you have rhythm problems.
You often don't have the opportunity to *practise* (as opposed to "play") regularly with other players or teachers, so if the pulse is a trouble spot and you want to work it, sometimes the metronome can be helpful that way.
Don't like working with metronomes and have pulse problems? (Of course there's always Beano, but...) Don't use one -- find another way round your problem. Don't care and have pulse problems? Use a metronome. I thought I was pretty clear about it. Guess I wasn't.
One more time: it's just a tool. Use it, or don't use it, it's up to you. I think either way is just fine.
Zina
# Posted on August 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: tune tempos?
Zina, say it again, for me, will ya....
You and everyone else is right except for those who don't agree with us. (Corrollory: On a multiple choice quizz, the answer is always "c", unless, of course, the answer isn't "c", in which case the answer is something else.)
Will, to be beamed anywhere, climb into that white porcelain thingy, and reach up and pull the handle.... my transporter is in the shop for repairs. *grin*
Um, er, ITM content? Every try to tune your fiddle by listening to the dial tone on your telephone? My phone is pretty close to F-natural...
Scottythebeamer
# Posted on August 13th 2002 by scottythefiddler
Re: tune tempos?
LOL! Just got this image of everything I've ever put in one of them porcelain thingies being molecularly beamed to the desks of some advanced civilization near Alpha Centauri.... ;-D Now I know why my seat says "Bemis" on it (Beam us...get it? Groan!). And who knew that Kohler and American Standard were responsible for all those crop circles....
Actually, Zina and I just had a little email exchange and acknowledged that we're both trying to mediate this discussion so that people who do use a metronome won't feel inferior for doing so, and people who don't use a metronome won't feel inferior for doing so.
So in short: metronomes are handy, there are other options, do whatever suits you best, and otherwise lets keep our dogma on leashes.
Harharharmon
# Posted on August 13th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: tune tempos?
Poor Doug, he'll probably never risk another post!
He asked for tune tempo suggestions and found out we couldn't even agree on how to take the patient's pulse!
# Posted on August 13th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: tune tempos?
In summary, use a metronome, unless you don't want to.
# Posted on August 13th 2002 by pearse
Re: tune tempos?
In the rare event I use a Metronome, I set so that it's playing the downbeats in 4/4 tunes. If a reel or hornpipe is played in perfect sync with a metronome for every eight note it will have no swing. No swing is a bad thing, work on playing with a syncopated rhythm. Some say it's a A>AA>A but I think it's a little less wooden than that, it's a thing you get from learning from good players by ear & every player does it different. It's really a matter of personal taste. Jigs also have a syncopated rhythm, I set the metronome so it clicks on the first & fourth eighth notes, . The most emphasis (length) is given to the first note of the three the second is the least & the third is somewhere in between the first & second. Think "Dowd-le-lee Deed-le-lee" But keep the metronome clicks on the "Dowd" & "Deed". Use the metronome to keep the tempo not the rhythm, Like booze, a metronome can be an excellent servant but a horrible master.
# Posted on August 13th 2002 by B Rad
Re: tune tempos?
thanx Brad for this: the metronome helps keeping tempo but not rhythm ....
.... and the dialing tone on the phone is a great tuning device! in Germany it is an exact 440 Hz A (Mr. Bell was not very well known here and Mr. Reis, Mr. Siemens and their fellow engineers surely met with the general postmasters family at some Beethoven concerts or Wagner operas) ... therefore we call it "amtliches (=official) A" ..... poor Doug - but didn
# Posted on August 13th 2002 by crannog
Re: tune tempos?
Good points Brad. A friend of mine told me of a little mnemonic she uses with her beginners to help them get the rhythm of jigs. It's "rashers 'n' sausages" (apologies to the Muslims). It's a bit of a tongue twister but it definitely conjures up a jig. I reckon a reel is in 2/2 tho' not in 4/4. I always notate reels in cut time. (that's the C with a vertical line through it). It should sound like ONE-a-and-a TWO-a-and-a. I have heard bodran players doing ONE-two-three-four ONE-two-three-four. Look out, the indians (Native Americans) are on the warpath!
# Posted on August 13th 2002 by milesnagopaleen
Re: tune tempos?
Great discussion thread, all who've posted here! To put in my own 2 cents worth: if you don't like the mechanical quality of metronomes, try walking and humming your tune before practising it. I've often come to a point where I can feel the music more by doing this, and when I next play that music it works better. It also helps me to memorize better (I'm a primarily a reading type of musician, more comfortable with using print before I risk playing by ear) - but I'm working on improving my trust in my ears. I guess all I'm saying is: different people use different ways of learning, we've got gifts in various proportions.
# Posted on August 17th 2002 by fiddlefingers
Re: tune tempos?
Metronomes? I haven't seen one of those at a session in Ireland for some time. Perhaps they are the metronomes of Zurich.
Mention has been made of reels and jigs but what about all the rest? Here they are in the (rough) order of frequency you are likely to hear them in a session where I come from.
Reel
Double Jig
Hornpipe
Barn dance
Polka
Waltz/Mazurka
Slow Air
Set Dance
March
Strathspey
Highland
Slip Jig
Slide
Single Jig
I agree with many of the comments above that the speed depends very much on the feel of the tune. There are some reels that I like to play hell for leather and others that need a more sedate treatment.
I would also comment that the music is dance music and if you are playing for dancers they like it to be lively. This is especially true of reels and jigs. Solo dancers on the other hand, dancing the likes of a hornpipe or set dance, prefer the music to be really slow so that they can get all the fancy steps in.
In summary - no cast iron rules apply to the tempo for Irish music in any of it's forms. It just depends on who yer with and where yer playin!
# Posted on August 29th 2002 by breandan