So recently I have been on a huge tune learning jag and have received many CDs from my friends. In these Cds, was a Leo McCann cd. I fell in love and decided I needed to learn the accordian. I had 2 years of classical piano training and know the notes pretty well. It's just a matter of getting back into shape. I just picked up a junker 120 bass piano accordian then 3 hours later bought a nicer one. (though i have to go pick it up) So this brings me to my question. I want to know if any one has good suggestions for learning tunes. I don't really know how ornamentation works on it which is my main concern. I already play fiddle and have ornamentation down well enough to know how it works. Is fiddle orn. simmilar to accordian orn.?Do you even do things like rolls, cuts, crans, ect? And if so, how are they executed Do you switch direction of the bellows like switching bowings to add swing and texture and lilt. And if anyone can tell em about history, playing styles, or anything I would greatly appreciatte it. Thanks!!!
Why not visit your heroe's Website at: http://www.leomccann.musicscotland.com/
& ask the man himself. He's a great bloke & is sure to give you sound advice.
Referring to ornamentation in general. I believe the characteristic elements of ITM ornamentation are in most cases shared by every melody instrument that you find in this music. Pipes, Fiddle, Flute, Melodeon and stringed instruments use much the same ornaments, although executed in different ways, depending on their characteristics. One ornament on the same instrument could be played in many ways, as well.
You wrote that you have the fiddle ornamentation down well. I think that, for a start, you could try to emulate these fiddle ornaments on accordion, try to "translate" them to your new instrument concentrating on how it finally sounds, comparing it to what you hear in recordings of traditional musicians.
I believe that traditional ornamentation deriving mostly of the piping tradition spread the same way among other solo instruments that later came to the ITM, so it's quite a natural way.
Well pointed out jimbo, and this is on a piano accordion - so, it is possible to get very nice ornamentation on that instrument - she's probably one of the best piano accordion players to listen to for Irish Traditional Music.
The Mad for Trad CD tutorial on button box has some examples of technique. In general for triplets and rolls you try and play notes using the bellows going in the one direction -smoother.
Piano accordions are *for* nice big fat right-hand chords. Skip the diddly ornamentation which is about just flute & fiddle envy!! Whack down some full four-finger mashes for that echt alt-europa sound!
AJ - welcome to the world of one of the most disliked instruments! You'll love it!
However, if you really do want to sound like Leo, then you might be better learning the B/C box....
While changes of bellows direction are analogous to changes of bow direction to a certain extent, I don't think you would gain anything by trying to achieve the effect of, say, a bowed triplet by changing the bellow 3 times. There's a great technique of doing that with your fingers, by using 3 different fingers rapidly on the same key. Even a lot of button players do this.
The main reason for changing fiddle bow direction is for effect. To seperate or connect notes. This is better achieved with fingers, for the most part, on the piano box. The accordion is very different from the piano in this respect - however long you hold the key down, that's exactly how much sound you get. (On the piano the notes ring a bit, and also die away eventually.) So you need to express a lot of the things that you would do by bowing on the fiddle by seperating or connecting notes using your fingers. So if a piano box player sounds either slushy or like they're chopping wood it's because they're not very good, not because that's all the instrument is capable of.
What is good is to change bellows direction at the end of say a 2 or 4 bar phrase, which doesn't usually start at the bar line (or on a strong beat). There's usually a "pick up note(s)" or anacrusis, to use the fancy word. If you can develop the habit of doing that from the start, I believe you will be a much better player in the long run.
And, yes, you can do all sorts of ornaments on the piano accordion. Like every instrument, these have their own variations, preferences, substitutions, etc.
AJ, I'm in a similar situation as you, starting on the piano accordion after having played piano and other instruments for much longer. Some things I have found helpful include:
- Karen Tweed's MadForTrad CDROM tutorial
- listening to good PA players and attempting to figure out their approaches (e.g., Tweed, Mirella Murray, Alan Kelly, Jimmy Keane)
- (especially) playing tunes with fiddlers and others, and attempting to adapt my playing to blend with theirs
Rooiighttt! Lederhosen.. fat chords, Un cha Un cha non-stop left hand, 3rds & 6ths in the right hand getting drowned out by the bass..one of those short-brimmed hats, and a big stein of beer in front 'a ya. Looks are everything .. if you can't play. Even my first and favorite Crucianelli, Italian 24-bass piano accordion is a mini orchestra, has a "large dynamic range,"ie., is loud, so you can get in good accents where you need to by varying air pressure on the left hand for some "lift" of the tunes. Good old reeds in that box, which I had fairly dry-tuned. Some people just squeeze the hell out of the bellows, same pressure all the time--which is a bore. [Good--I see folks nodding in agreement.. :-]
Someone advised me somewhere, a light, sparse touch on the left hand, hint of the basic rhythm with the occasional big accent, is best. Too busy, and it takes away quite a bit from what you can put into the rt-hand melody.
I play melody, or accompaniment, or both, go back and forth--add to tunes even if I don't play the melody--say, mimic bagpipe drones & regulators, in any key. Eat yer hearts out, pipers!
I'm more or less self-taught, figure out the right hand & harmonies by myself, there were no Irish-piano-accordion-books, few players around in Toronto to show me how to do pipe or other ornaments--though were several players of ceili-band calibre. No matter--it's been very enjoyable to invent my own ornaments (ones I like & have a hope of playing..), and getting them to roll off the fingers with a bit of a snap. I borrow ornaments or aspects of playing from fiddle/pipes, but I'm also after the sound of my favorite melodeon and concertina players (Tony MacMahon, Paul Brock & other locomotive-steady chuggers, Noel Hill, Michael O'Raghallaigh el al) & borrowed their ornaments, too, ex.3rds above ornamented note--more harmonic than on fiddle with its 2nds around ornamented note. Some might be a bit unorthodox, but hey, if it sounds good or right, the ear's the judge.
Basically I arrange fingering to start or finish *beyond* the melody in order to put in these ornaments, a reinvention of what I started out playing, which may be a bit daunting..
I also try not to play the same note twice with the same finger--can repeat faster.
Playing faster than 110 is not generally my preferred cup of tea, as it requires a more stripped-down approach with no or few ornaments--trade off speed for complexity--which requires different fingering--and endurance.
Take heart, there's a good book out--we are not alone! Mel Bay (www.melbay.com) has been putting out some good books lately. One I would recommend, is by David Giuseppe, "100 Irish tunes for Piano Accordion," w/CD, full ornament notation and fingering--incl. by all-time great accordionists mentioned elsewhere, has been helpful.. shows ways to play the tunes. I alter here and there to taste, incorporate "my own" dotted quarter ornaments or fingering instead of his, etc.
)-: Before I go back to lurking mode.. the most practical advice: don't leave your squeezebox in a hot car, in sunlight, etc., or the wax holding the reeds can melt, the reeds fall out or go out of tune. Getting 'em set & retuned's a bitch. Have fun becoming your own favorite accordion player!
Hey, I have a related question that might be answered here instead of starting a new thread. I've inherited an old piano accordion that my great-aunt used to play. Her daughter, my aunt, would "love to hear the old accordion play again." So it goes to me, as my cousins generally limit their music to banging on things.
It's a 27 key 12 bass learner system, and I really can't find any methods for it. Most concentrate on more elaborate accordions with more bass and keys.
Anybody have any ideas? Sorry to butt in, but it seems like the thread for it. Or start a new one and endure the inevitable PA slagging.
The smaller 12-bass can use the methods for the larger bass accordions, the wiill just have more rows and columns, but your 12-bass is the framework around which the others are hung.
You have six rows of two butttons? Somewhere in the middle would be the C bass and Cmaj chord, and just follow the circle of fifths up and down from there (Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E), not sure which ones you have out of those ten, maybe Bb - A ?
Oh, and also... Just like the melodeon and B/C box differ in produced sound and ornamentation, as do the flute and fiddle, and on and on, so the PA will differ slightly from any other instrument in it's way of ornamenting, so take the strengths of your instrument to augment the traditional sound, just be careful not to destroy it in the process. As for cuts/taps/strikes/etc. being on 3rds instead of 2nds as on fiddles, this isn't a big deal, as on the flute most tutors will advise that you may well want to go a bit higher or lower to cut/strike, since the note is ever so brief you really aren't hearing that note, just a blip of pitch.
I'm joining the thread with a related question - but I'm in good company....i too recently got an old (120 LH button) piano accordion. It appears that they are not too well-liked in the folk scene. Is it worth persevering with the mind-boggling LH buttons (is there an easy way to work them - as I find it nigh-impossible to even locate the only indented one that is C!) or should I try and find a nice concertina with a softer tone and fewer buttons?
Of course there is an easy way to work the buttons - find either a good book or a good teacher and understand how they work, correct fingering, etc. In the long run, it is the right hand of a piano accordion which is the more difficult, in my opinion. The left hand looks scary because most of us are sort of used to looking at piano keyboards, but don't understand how the bass system of an accordion works. It's really easy once you know how.
However, should you play the concertina or the accordion? Huh? It's like should you play the flute or the whistle. Which one do you want to play? An old (possibly beat up) accordion won't sound very good, but neither will an old beat up concertina. The actual number of buttons isn't what determines the difficulty - it's how you approach them, etc. The piano box and the concertina are only about as closely related as the guitar and bouzouki. Take your pick.
lyrebird, I'm with kris on this : the left hand is fairly easy.
Yr 120 Bass has the Counterbass row., which is the top row (or furthest away when yr wearin' it.) The one with the diamond is C (it's OK to peek, just don't stare) so we'll use that for example.
The rows go in 5ths. The Counterbass is up one 3rd from the nearer button.
<-etc--- G, D, A, E, B, F#,C#,G#D# -etc
<--etc--- Eb,Bb, F, C, G, D, A, E, B---etc-->
(Hope that don't wreck yr browser, Dow.)
So C is the one with the Diamond, skip G for D,Go back to the top row for E, F is back on the near row below C, skip C for G, A is back down over the G (or you can skip D...) B is over the G, then yr down to C. Learn the pattern and it will fit for whatever key. The modal scales are a bit more complicated, but with a little advanced planning can be easily under your hand.
Once you get the scales down you can play simple melodies.
You have an open 5th with adjacent buttons, and that's about all you'd really need for ITM anyway.
The modal scales are a bit more complicated, but with a little advanced planning can be easily under your hand.
Now go around to the other side and try that linear R.H. side where the notes are all over the place. Frustrating, frustrating....
More Buttons = more notes, and a concertina doesn't have them all where you need them. (Well an Anglo anyway. I don't know from English, but they sound so ,......so,........ so,........ English!)
Besides, you already have an accordian, so bloom where yr planted. If you want to shell out the bucks to be fashionable or popular, get a B/C, but I'll warn ya, it's all buttons.
Accordian beginnings
Accordian beginnings
So recently I have been on a huge tune learning jag and have received many CDs from my friends. In these Cds, was a Leo McCann cd. I fell in love and decided I needed to learn the accordian. I had 2 years of classical piano training and know the notes pretty well. It's just a matter of getting back into shape. I just picked up a junker 120 bass piano accordian then 3 hours later bought a nicer one. (though i have to go pick it up) So this brings me to my question. I want to know if any one has good suggestions for learning tunes. I don't really know how ornamentation works on it which is my main concern. I already play fiddle and have ornamentation down well enough to know how it works. Is fiddle orn. simmilar to accordian orn.?Do you even do things like rolls, cuts, crans, ect? And if so, how are they executed Do you switch direction of the bellows like switching bowings to add swing and texture and lilt. And if anyone can tell em about history, playing styles, or anything I would greatly appreciatte it. Thanks!!!
AJ
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by berserker
Re: Accordian beginnings
Why not visit your heroe's Website at:
http://www.leomccann.musicscotland.com/
& ask the man himself. He's a great bloke & is sure to give you sound advice.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Accordian beginnings
accordian? accordion?
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Accordian beginnings
berserker, Leo plays a button box - so if you want to ornament like him.......
As Ptarmigan says, Leo's a great bloke - infact, you'd be hard-pushed to find a nicer person on the planet.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Ron P
Re: Accordian beginnings
Referring to ornamentation in general. I believe the characteristic elements of ITM ornamentation are in most cases shared by every melody instrument that you find in this music. Pipes, Fiddle, Flute, Melodeon and stringed instruments use much the same ornaments, although executed in different ways, depending on their characteristics. One ornament on the same instrument could be played in many ways, as well.
You wrote that you have the fiddle ornamentation down well. I think that, for a start, you could try to emulate these fiddle ornaments on accordion, try to "translate" them to your new instrument concentrating on how it finally sounds, comparing it to what you hear in recordings of traditional musicians.
I believe that traditional ornamentation deriving mostly of the piping tradition spread the same way among other solo instruments that later came to the ITM, so it's quite a natural way.
That's quite general, but I hope it helps a bit.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Barfly
Re: Accordian beginnings
I think one fantastic person to listen to if you want to hear a great example of oranamentation is Karen Tweed. She has the most amazing right hand!
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by jimbob
Re: Accordian beginnings
Well pointed out jimbo, and this is on a piano accordion - so, it is possible to get very nice ornamentation on that instrument - she's probably one of the best piano accordion players to listen to for Irish Traditional Music.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Ron P
Re: Accordian beginnings
The Mad for Trad CD tutorial on button box has some examples of technique. In general for triplets and rolls you try and play notes using the bellows going in the one direction -smoother.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: Accordian beginnings
Piano accordions are *for* nice big fat right-hand chords. Skip the diddly ornamentation which is about just flute & fiddle envy!! Whack down some full four-finger mashes for that echt alt-europa sound!
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by S1obhan
Re: Accordian beginnings
Ich wusste nicht dass du Deutsch sprechen koennte, Siobhán!
On the basis of your advice I'm off to my tailor (Fritz Kneissenteit) to get fitted for Lederhosen.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Accordian beginnings
AJ - welcome to the world of one of the most disliked instruments! You'll love it!
However, if you really do want to sound like Leo, then you might be better learning the B/C box....
While changes of bellows direction are analogous to changes of bow direction to a certain extent, I don't think you would gain anything by trying to achieve the effect of, say, a bowed triplet by changing the bellow 3 times. There's a great technique of doing that with your fingers, by using 3 different fingers rapidly on the same key. Even a lot of button players do this.
The main reason for changing fiddle bow direction is for effect. To seperate or connect notes. This is better achieved with fingers, for the most part, on the piano box. The accordion is very different from the piano in this respect - however long you hold the key down, that's exactly how much sound you get. (On the piano the notes ring a bit, and also die away eventually.) So you need to express a lot of the things that you would do by bowing on the fiddle by seperating or connecting notes using your fingers. So if a piano box player sounds either slushy or like they're chopping wood it's because they're not very good, not because that's all the instrument is capable of.
What is good is to change bellows direction at the end of say a 2 or 4 bar phrase, which doesn't usually start at the bar line (or on a strong beat). There's usually a "pick up note(s)" or anacrusis, to use the fancy word. If you can develop the habit of doing that from the start, I believe you will be a much better player in the long run.
And, yes, you can do all sorts of ornaments on the piano accordion. Like every instrument, these have their own variations, preferences, substitutions, etc.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by kris
Re: Accordian beginnings
AJ, I'm in a similar situation as you, starting on the piano accordion after having played piano and other instruments for much longer. Some things I have found helpful include:
- Karen Tweed's MadForTrad CDROM tutorial
- listening to good PA players and attempting to figure out their approaches (e.g., Tweed, Mirella Murray, Alan Kelly, Jimmy Keane)
- (especially) playing tunes with fiddlers and others, and attempting to adapt my playing to blend with theirs
Have fun,
Doug.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by tedium
Re: Accordian beginnings
Someone advised me somewhere, a light, sparse touch on the left hand, hint of the basic rhythm with the occasional big accent, is best. Too busy, and it takes away quite a bit from what you can put into the rt-hand melody.
I play melody, or accompaniment, or both, go back and forth--add to tunes even if I don't play the melody--say, mimic bagpipe drones & regulators, in any key. Eat yer hearts out, pipers!
I'm more or less self-taught, figure out the right hand & harmonies by myself, there were no Irish-piano-accordion-books, few players around in Toronto to show me how to do pipe or other ornaments--though were several players of ceili-band calibre. No matter--it's been very enjoyable to invent my own ornaments (ones I like & have a hope of playing..), and getting them to roll off the fingers with a bit of a snap. I borrow ornaments or aspects of playing from fiddle/pipes, but I'm also after the sound of my favorite melodeon and concertina players (Tony MacMahon, Paul Brock & other locomotive-steady chuggers, Noel Hill, Michael O'Raghallaigh el al) & borrowed their ornaments, too, ex.3rds above ornamented note--more harmonic than on fiddle with its 2nds around ornamented note. Some might be a bit unorthodox, but hey, if it sounds good or right, the ear's the judge.
Basically I arrange fingering to start or finish *beyond* the melody in order to put in these ornaments, a reinvention of what I started out playing, which may be a bit daunting..
I also try not to play the same note twice with the same finger--can repeat faster.
Playing faster than 110 is not generally my preferred cup of tea, as it requires a more stripped-down approach with no or few ornaments--trade off speed for complexity--which requires different fingering--and endurance.
Take heart, there's a good book out--we are not alone! Mel Bay (www.melbay.com) has been putting out some good books lately. One I would recommend, is by David Giuseppe, "100 Irish tunes for Piano Accordion," w/CD, full ornament notation and fingering--incl. by all-time great accordionists mentioned elsewhere, has been helpful.. shows ways to play the tunes. I alter here and there to taste, incorporate "my own" dotted quarter ornaments or fingering instead of his, etc.
)-: Before I go back to lurking mode.. the most practical advice: don't leave your squeezebox in a hot car, in sunlight, etc., or the wax holding the reeds can melt, the reeds fall out or go out of tune. Getting 'em set & retuned's a bitch.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by jimmydearing
Re: Accordian beginnings
Hey, I have a related question that might be answered here instead of starting a new thread. I've inherited an old piano accordion that my great-aunt used to play. Her daughter, my aunt, would "love to hear the old accordion play again." So it goes to me, as my cousins generally limit their music to banging on things.
It's a 27 key 12 bass learner system, and I really can't find any methods for it. Most concentrate on more elaborate accordions with more bass and keys.
Anybody have any ideas? Sorry to butt in, but it seems like the thread for it. Or start a new one and endure the inevitable PA slagging.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Accordian beginnings
Sneaky!!
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Accordian beginnings
You be nice or I'll reveal your deeply-hidden true name to Michael Gill.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Accordian beginnings
;)
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Accordian beginnings
The smaller 12-bass can use the methods for the larger bass accordions, the wiill just have more rows and columns, but your 12-bass is the framework around which the others are hung.
You have six rows of two butttons? Somewhere in the middle would be the C bass and Cmaj chord, and just follow the circle of fifths up and down from there (Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E), not sure which ones you have out of those ten, maybe Bb - A ?
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by N9YTY
Re: Accordian beginnings
Oh, and also... Just like the melodeon and B/C box differ in produced sound and ornamentation, as do the flute and fiddle, and on and on, so the PA will differ slightly from any other instrument in it's way of ornamenting, so take the strengths of your instrument to augment the traditional sound, just be careful not to destroy it in the process.
As for cuts/taps/strikes/etc. being on 3rds instead of 2nds as on fiddles, this isn't a big deal, as on the flute most tutors will advise that you may well want to go a bit higher or lower to cut/strike, since the note is ever so brief you really aren't hearing that note, just a blip of pitch.
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by N9YTY
Re: Accordian beginnings
I'm joining the thread with a related question - but I'm in good company....i too recently got an old (120 LH button) piano accordion. It appears that they are not too well-liked in the folk scene. Is it worth persevering with the mind-boggling LH buttons (is there an easy way to work them - as I find it nigh-impossible to even locate the only indented one that is C!) or should I try and find a nice concertina with a softer tone and fewer buttons?
# Posted on September 4th 2005 by lyrebird
Re: Accordian beginnings
Of course there is an easy way to work the buttons - find either a good book or a good teacher and understand how they work, correct fingering, etc. In the long run, it is the right hand of a piano accordion which is the more difficult, in my opinion. The left hand looks scary because most of us are sort of used to looking at piano keyboards, but don't understand how the bass system of an accordion works. It's really easy once you know how.
However, should you play the concertina or the accordion? Huh? It's like should you play the flute or the whistle. Which one do you want to play? An old (possibly beat up) accordion won't sound very good, but neither will an old beat up concertina. The actual number of buttons isn't what determines the difficulty - it's how you approach them, etc. The piano box and the concertina are only about as closely related as the guitar and bouzouki. Take your pick.
# Posted on September 4th 2005 by kris
Re: Accordian beginnings
lyrebird, I'm with kris on this : the left hand is fairly easy.
Yr 120 Bass has the Counterbass row., which is the top row (or furthest away when yr wearin' it.) The one with the diamond is C (it's OK to peek, just don't stare) so we'll use that for example.
The rows go in 5ths. The Counterbass is up one 3rd from the nearer button.
<-etc--- G, D, A, E, B, F#,C#,G#D# -etc
<--etc--- Eb,Bb, F, C, G, D, A, E, B---etc-->
(Hope that don't wreck yr browser, Dow.)
So C is the one with the Diamond, skip G for D,Go back to the top row for E, F is back on the near row below C, skip C for G, A is back down over the G (or you can skip D...) B is over the G, then yr down to C. Learn the pattern and it will fit for whatever key. The modal scales are a bit more complicated, but with a little advanced planning can be easily under your hand.
Once you get the scales down you can play simple melodies.
You have an open 5th with adjacent buttons, and that's about all you'd really need for ITM anyway.
The modal scales are a bit more complicated, but with a little advanced planning can be easily under your hand.
Now go around to the other side and try that linear R.H. side where the notes are all over the place. Frustrating, frustrating....
More Buttons = more notes, and a concertina doesn't have them all where you need them. (Well an Anglo anyway. I don't know from English, but they sound so ,......so,........ so,........ English!)
Besides, you already have an accordian, so bloom where yr planted. If you want to shell out the bucks to be fashionable or popular, get a B/C, but I'll warn ya, it's all buttons.
# Posted on September 6th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Accordian beginnings
Like I say, Mel Bay (www.melbay.com) has books and videos that suit beginners, too.
Cheers,
# Posted on September 28th 2005 by jimmydearing