i've been gone for a while (but not really, just in lurking-mode).
but now i'm back, with a question. two actually...
since we started our tune-learning sessions (which are working very well, thanks to all you guys for advice and support, http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/5489), we had a policy of "only (melody) instruments suited for irish music".
now someone asked me if i consider a clarinet as a "suitable" instrument, and i answered: "yes, since the music is mostly style related, and not so much instrument-related", remembering i heard some good recording of irish music, where a clarinet was (also) playing along. (the open door, by sean nua, http://thesession.org/recordings/display.php/908)
i know not everybody will agree with my position, but hey, this is a discussion board, right?
so, my questions are these:
1. does anyone else know of good (!) clarinet recordings in ITM?
2. what is your point on the style/instrument issue?
In the 30's, 40's and 50's saxophones were played a lot and clarinets to a limited extent. The music was for dancing and was a mixture of Trad and Ballroom. I don't know if there are any recordings, perhaps private ones. I played quite a lot with an old musician in Ennis and occasionally he played Sax if the "Lancers" was asked for. In Brittany there was and still is a very strong tradition of old simple system Clarinet playing. It would seem odd if there were none of these basic instruments in Ireland. I wonder if anyone ever came across Shawm (Bombarde) or Oboe (Hautbois) types?
1. though not with clarinet, I think At the Racket is a great band - and they use saxophone.
I think clarinet was quite common in Irish dance music. I saw lots of black and white photos of Irish dance bands anyway.
2. never heard a clarinet in an Irish session so I don't know. Still when instruments like bass, silver flutes, recorders... came into our session, I thought it did not fit. But that was probably because these people had very little interest in Irish music - just in "joining in"...
Years ago I enjoyed playing trad tunes with a very good clarinet player in West Virginia who had obviously spent a lot of time immersed in the music. He understood how to do rolls and cuts and taps and where to place them, and he had the feel for Irish rhythms and lift down pat. The tone of the clarinet was like a cross between pipes and wooden flute, so while it was different, I thought it fit the music well. I would not hesitate to include such a player in a session.
I think anyone who can play the music properly on any instrument should be given a chance. It’ll either catch on or not. Who would have predicted that the bouzouki would become de rigueur?
You can hear woodwind - either oboe and clarinet - on certain pre-1950s ceili band recordings. Because the instrumentation is not given for these, and the poor sound quality, it's hard to be certain about which instrument exactly is playing.
Most of these are not available commercially - try Comahltas's Great Ceili bands CD, I think offhand that there's woodwind on the Garda Metropolitan Ceilidh Band. Frank Lee's band, and Dick Smith's band also sometimes had these instruments.
@ will: i understand you're talking style-wise?
it's just very difficult to 'invent' a style for ITM on clarinet if there's no examples arround, so, i just keep on looking, for this guy's sake.
@ sabine: i also saw lots of pictures of combination wooden-flute/clarinet, but i though they were more klezmer-related?
@ ian: i personally don't like saxophone in irish sessionmusic (prob because they're too loud, and don't sound that well played at a lower volume?) though (exception to the rule?) there's one band arround here that bring the music with banjo-sax with lots of spirit. but that's not session-wise, is it?
The Shawm & Oboe are terrific instruments & sound absolutely wonderful playing Breton & French music, but I'm not convinced that their sound suits Irish, but I'll keep an open mind.
I'd say they could work well at a Ceili but don't fancy them in a session.
Careful Bob, you could be inundated with Cajons & Session WMDs if you are not careful!!
Moving off the topic of snake-charming slightly, there is indeed a 'charming' young lady who occasionally comes to the Herschell arms and plays saxophone. It blends in very well with the (largish) session and she only plays what she knows and refrains from the temptation to indulge in John Coltrane style free-form wailing, which is something of a blessing.
Despite the clarinet's apparent suitability for snake charming, Indian snake charmers still only use the traditional 'pungi'. They never have shakey (or snakey) eggs, as this will encourage the cobra to strike, as will the appearance of a didgeridoo. Bodhrans are used largely in winnowing the rice harvest.
The question I would ask is this...
"Why does this clarinettist want to play Irish music?"
The chap in Sean Nua is a flute player, and is presumably using the clarinet to add some colour to his band's efforts. There is a world of difference between an Irish musician playing something on a clarinet, and a clarinettist deciding to play 'Irish music'. Why doesnt he get a whistle (very small initial financial outlay) and learn something of the music, and then apply his new found skills to the clarinet?
Unless he becomes particularly enamoured of the sound of 1940s ceili bands I suspect he won't bother. Which sort of begs the question ....
Yours cantankerously
etc. etc ....
I wasn't really advocating these instruments in a session but there are precedents in the tradition. The Gallowglas certainly used a Sax which only ever played one A and one B part, not
exactly my cup of tea but they were a tight band and excellent for dancing.
Ptarmigan, thanks for the words. Quilty exists at the moment in 4 or 5 different formations but it will sort itself out in time.
Hey Ian, nothing wrong with a fexible line up. That way you can be all things to all people. You could even have a Ceili Band line up which used Sax &/or Clarinet!!
Good thinking Batman, hadn't thought about actually using the instruments in the band. What about a line-up of say.
Maltese Bagpipe (5 notes only. Bag made of Catskin.)
Rajasthan Flute.
Bandoneon.
Alpenhorn ( To give it a bit of Oomph).
Triangle.
Sounds as though we could be on to something here..........
Just a thought, we could sing in the style of the Mongolian shepherds but take it to it's ultimate conclusion and sing two songs at the same time, that way we could halve the length of the gigs for the same money...........
The queen of ITM clarinet is Virginia McKee from the Dingle peninsula. You can occasionally catch her at John Benny's in Dingle town and she is featured on Eilis Kennedy's album Time to Sail. It is great sound that works very well. It is more like a low whistle with a greater range and sensitively done by Virginia.
Mike Keyes
In my beginner banjo articles I advocate the use of four fingers mostly because I believe that it is easier to play the instrument with this style. The scale length of a 19 fret instrument is in the 23" (580 mm) range which is quite a reach for small hands if only three fingers are used. In addition, the four finger style is quicker because you are not left with the choice of playing two different frets on two different strings during a quick passage.
Players who come from the mandolin or fiddle have a natural tendency to play three fingers because they preserve all of their hard earned ornaments and are familiar with the tunes in a three finger style. If you work around the technical difficulties there is no problem with three finger style.
In fact there is very little difference between the two styles once a player is competent but it is hard to go from one to the other without a lot of work (about three months, at least that is what it took me to make the transition.) The main arguments seem to center around how the high B note is sounded. In the three finger style the little finger is used as part of the system (the seventh fret is taken care of by the little finger) while the four finger style demands a second position use of the little finger. The four finger player will be more aware of the shift that has to be made because he or she will think more of first and second position while the three finger player will always think first position. As a result the four finger player might go to second position on the A string in anticipation of a high B (Musical Priest for example) and there will be a slightly different approach to the music.
Most of the elite level players seem to switch between the two styles probably because they use whatever works for them and don't reall think about it. Look at my John Carty clip (below) and you can see him do this. Nothing is written in stone at this level.
Another thing a lot of elite players do is to tune the instrument in the original CGDA tuning and capo up two to DAEB tuning so the high B is just another string. That way they don't have to make the reach during a fast tune.
I started out with the mandolin and am learning to play the fiddle (my wife is out of town for a week <G>) and made th decision to go to four fingers after taking a course from Gerry O'Connor. For me it is the way to go and I now look at the banjo as a separate instrument from the mandolin. My styles are influencing one another but are distictive from banjo to mandolin. The tunes remain the same.
The sax is still with us (even if the lamented Gallowglass Band isn't). At the Swinford Festival (Co Mayo) a couple of weeks ago the Shaskeen Band was playing for set dancers in the town square. They had a sax in their line-up, but didn't use it all the time. For a refreshing change, this was one ceili band with no keyboard or percussion, just a straight line-up of melody instruments. A good clean sound.
We have a clarinet player/whistle/flute player around these parts.He even went so far as to get an A clarinet. He would play the clarinet mostly on waltzes. But he hasn't been using it as much since he got his flute.
MM, I would say that an important part of allowing that person into your tune learning session is letting them know that what they are doing is out of the "norm" - at least these days, and to talk to them about things like session etiquette, so that they don't automatically expect that they can go out into the "real world" and be freely accepted - even if they end up playing ITM beautifully on the clarinet.
@ ottery, i'll get your question through to the clarinetist.
i presume it's got something to do with him playing a clarinet and wishing to play our music,
not wanting to learn an other instrument.
@ mikeyes, thanks for the info (mostly about virginia .. )
@ mcmandolin, there's quite a few clarinet players around, that do play french/flemish folk music
(he's one of them) but he's looking for something more! the french/flemish music is mostly played for
dancers, and we have a very lively dancing community around these days! (see www.boombal.be)
@ pete: i'll talk to the guy about your point. the TLS is not a real 'session' yet.
@ gorgash: i invited him and i'm quite sure he'll turn up one day (he does play at the boombaljams).
Ah, if we were to get hung up on the "but it's not a proper instrument", we'd have what... The harp and pipes only? At some point, every "accepted" instrument was not. Anyway, I believe it's far more important to learn the right "style", and that comes from listening and imitating far better than reading a tutorial, so the lack of clarinet specific books/etc should not be a problem if the musician is able to honestly listen to the sound, as played on other instruments, and do their best to replicate it on the clarinet within it's limits, and not introduce bits you'd use on the clarinet from other musical styles if you don't hear them in good ITM played on the accepted body of instruments. Just my $0.02
I guess the guy has to have the ability to play softly..........; I' m afraid that in an unamplified setting the other trad. instruments otherwise soon will be ' sent home ' (even amplified it' s a bit of a problem, I realised this when listening to the French / Belgian band Valerio ( partly ITM; accordion, fiddle, guitar, soprano sax ).
style or instrument?
style or instrument?
hello everyone,
i've been gone for a while (but not really, just in lurking-mode).
but now i'm back, with a question. two actually...
since we started our tune-learning sessions (which are working very well, thanks to all you guys for advice and support, http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/5489), we had a policy of "only (melody) instruments suited for irish music".
now someone asked me if i consider a clarinet as a "suitable" instrument, and i answered: "yes, since the music is mostly style related, and not so much instrument-related", remembering i heard some good recording of irish music, where a clarinet was (also) playing along. (the open door, by sean nua, http://thesession.org/recordings/display.php/908)
i know not everybody will agree with my position, but hey, this is a discussion board, right?
so, my questions are these:
1. does anyone else know of good (!) clarinet recordings in ITM?
2. what is your point on the style/instrument issue?
mm
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by MM
Re: style or instrument?
my sister played dirty old town on clarinet once. not that this helps lol
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by S.McMullen
Re: style or instrument?
In the 30's, 40's and 50's saxophones were played a lot and clarinets to a limited extent. The music was for dancing and was a mixture of Trad and Ballroom. I don't know if there are any recordings, perhaps private ones. I played quite a lot with an old musician in Ennis and occasionally he played Sax if the "Lancers" was asked for. In Brittany there was and still is a very strong tradition of old simple system Clarinet playing. It would seem odd if there were none of these basic instruments in Ireland. I wonder if anyone ever came across Shawm (Bombarde) or Oboe (Hautbois) types?
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: style or instrument?
1. though not with clarinet, I think At the Racket is a great band - and they use saxophone.
I think clarinet was quite common in Irish dance music. I saw lots of black and white photos of Irish dance bands anyway.
2. never heard a clarinet in an Irish session so I don't know. Still when instruments like bass, silver flutes, recorders... came into our session, I thought it did not fit. But that was probably because these people had very little interest in Irish music - just in "joining in"...
Sabine
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Irish Trad. Head
Re: style or instrument?
You can do a good impression of an Indian Snake Charmer on a clarinet.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ottery
Re: style or instrument?
Years ago I enjoyed playing trad tunes with a very good clarinet player in West Virginia who had obviously spent a lot of time immersed in the music. He understood how to do rolls and cuts and taps and where to place them, and he had the feel for Irish rhythms and lift down pat. The tone of the clarinet was like a cross between pipes and wooden flute, so while it was different, I thought it fit the music well. I would not hesitate to include such a player in a session.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: style or instrument?
I think anyone who can play the music properly on any instrument should be given a chance. It’ll either catch on or not. Who would have predicted that the bouzouki would become de rigueur?
So, yes, it’s the style, not the instrument.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: style or instrument?
You can hear woodwind - either oboe and clarinet - on certain pre-1950s ceili band recordings. Because the instrumentation is not given for these, and the poor sound quality, it's hard to be certain about which instrument exactly is playing.
Most of these are not available commercially - try Comahltas's Great Ceili bands CD, I think offhand that there's woodwind on the Garda Metropolitan Ceilidh Band. Frank Lee's band, and Dick Smith's band also sometimes had these instruments.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by continuo
Re: style or instrument?
@ will: i understand you're talking style-wise?
it's just very difficult to 'invent' a style for ITM on clarinet if there's no examples arround, so, i just keep on looking, for this guy's sake.
@ sabine: i also saw lots of pictures of combination wooden-flute/clarinet, but i though they were more klezmer-related?
@ ian: i personally don't like saxophone in irish sessionmusic (prob because they're too loud, and don't sound that well played at a lower volume?) though (exception to the rule?) there's one band arround here that bring the music with banjo-sax with lots of spirit. but that's not session-wise, is it?
keep'm coming, you lot.
mm
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by MM
Re: style or instrument?
Did not the great Gallowglass Ceili Band have a Sax???
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by mikemcdaid
Re: style or instrument?
Ian, Good Luck to the newly reformed Quilty.
The Shawm & Oboe are terrific instruments & sound absolutely wonderful playing Breton & French music, but I'm not convinced that their sound suits Irish, but I'll keep an open mind.
I'd say they could work well at a Ceili but don't fancy them in a session.
Careful Bob, you could be inundated with Cajons & Session WMDs if you are not careful!!
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: style or instrument?
Moving off the topic of snake-charming slightly, there is indeed a 'charming' young lady who occasionally comes to the Herschell arms and plays saxophone. It blends in very well with the (largish) session and she only plays what she knows and refrains from the temptation to indulge in John Coltrane style free-form wailing, which is something of a blessing.
Despite the clarinet's apparent suitability for snake charming, Indian snake charmers still only use the traditional 'pungi'. They never have shakey (or snakey) eggs, as this will encourage the cobra to strike, as will the appearance of a didgeridoo. Bodhrans are used largely in winnowing the rice harvest.
The question I would ask is this...
"Why does this clarinettist want to play Irish music?"
The chap in Sean Nua is a flute player, and is presumably using the clarinet to add some colour to his band's efforts. There is a world of difference between an Irish musician playing something on a clarinet, and a clarinettist deciding to play 'Irish music'. Why doesnt he get a whistle (very small initial financial outlay) and learn something of the music, and then apply his new found skills to the clarinet?
Unless he becomes particularly enamoured of the sound of 1940s ceili bands I suspect he won't bother. Which sort of begs the question ....
Yours cantankerously
etc. etc ....
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ottery
Re: style or instrument?
Clarinet appears on Lunasa's "The Merry Sister of Fate" though not as a melody instrument.
I think GHB and sax would complement each other very well.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by slainte
Re: style or instrument?
Hey, don't knock John Coltraine - he's the MAN, or so my son tells me & he's a gigging Jazz musician, so I have to take his word for it.
However, I would defend your right to 'cantanker' away to your hearst content.
You are making a lot of sense, which is a rare beastie around here!!
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: style or instrument?
You can listen to the live concert of "At the Racket" for free on the net: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thelatesession/rams/11august.ram
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by slainte
Re: style or instrument?
I wasn't really advocating these instruments in a session but there are precedents in the tradition. The Gallowglas certainly used a Sax which only ever played one A and one B part, not
exactly my cup of tea but they were a tight band and excellent for dancing.
Ptarmigan, thanks for the words. Quilty exists at the moment in 4 or 5 different formations but it will sort itself out in time.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: style or instrument?
Hey Ian, nothing wrong with a fexible line up. That way you can be all things to all people. You could even have a Ceili Band line up which used Sax &/or Clarinet!!
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: style or instrument?
Good thinking Batman, hadn't thought about actually using the instruments in the band. What about a line-up of say.
Maltese Bagpipe (5 notes only. Bag made of Catskin.)
Rajasthan Flute.
Bandoneon.
Alpenhorn ( To give it a bit of Oomph).
Triangle.
Sounds as though we could be on to something here..........
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: style or instrument?
Joey Oliver plays the oboe in 422.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Folkie Junkie
Re: style or instrument?
Just a thought, we could sing in the style of the Mongolian shepherds but take it to it's ultimate conclusion and sing two songs at the same time, that way we could halve the length of the gigs for the same money...........
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: style or instrument?
The queen of ITM clarinet is Virginia McKee from the Dingle peninsula. You can occasionally catch her at John Benny's in Dingle town and she is featured on Eilis Kennedy's album Time to Sail. It is great sound that works very well. It is more like a low whistle with a greater range and sensitively done by Virginia.
Mike Keyes
In my beginner banjo articles I advocate the use of four fingers mostly because I believe that it is easier to play the instrument with this style. The scale length of a 19 fret instrument is in the 23" (580 mm) range which is quite a reach for small hands if only three fingers are used. In addition, the four finger style is quicker because you are not left with the choice of playing two different frets on two different strings during a quick passage.
Players who come from the mandolin or fiddle have a natural tendency to play three fingers because they preserve all of their hard earned ornaments and are familiar with the tunes in a three finger style. If you work around the technical difficulties there is no problem with three finger style.
In fact there is very little difference between the two styles once a player is competent but it is hard to go from one to the other without a lot of work (about three months, at least that is what it took me to make the transition.) The main arguments seem to center around how the high B note is sounded. In the three finger style the little finger is used as part of the system (the seventh fret is taken care of by the little finger) while the four finger style demands a second position use of the little finger. The four finger player will be more aware of the shift that has to be made because he or she will think more of first and second position while the three finger player will always think first position. As a result the four finger player might go to second position on the A string in anticipation of a high B (Musical Priest for example) and there will be a slightly different approach to the music.
Most of the elite level players seem to switch between the two styles probably because they use whatever works for them and don't reall think about it. Look at my John Carty clip (below) and you can see him do this. Nothing is written in stone at this level.
Another thing a lot of elite players do is to tune the instrument in the original CGDA tuning and capo up two to DAEB tuning so the high B is just another string. That way they don't have to make the reach during a fast tune.
I started out with the mandolin and am learning to play the fiddle (my wife is out of town for a week <G>) and made th decision to go to four fingers after taking a course from Gerry O'Connor. For me it is the way to go and I now look at the banjo as a separate instrument from the mandolin. My styles are influencing one another but are distictive from banjo to mandolin. The tunes remain the same.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/aug05/righthand.html
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by mikeyes
Re: style or instrument?
Sorry about that last note, I have to learn to use my computer more efficiently and not bring in a discussion that has nothing to do with the topic.
MJK
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by mikeyes
Re: style or instrument?
The sax is still with us (even if the lamented Gallowglass Band isn't). At the Swinford Festival (Co Mayo) a couple of weeks ago the Shaskeen Band was playing for set dancers in the town square. They had a sax in their line-up, but didn't use it all the time. For a refreshing change, this was one ceili band with no keyboard or percussion, just a straight line-up of melody instruments. A good clean sound.
Trevor
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by lazyhound
Re: style or instrument?
I've had the lucky opportunity to play with a great clarinet player. He's got a great feel for the music. You can hear some of his stuff here:
http://www.blackbirdsceltic.com/
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Jode
Re: style or instrument?
I love the clarinet. I think it's a wonderful instrument.
I love Irish music even more.
I feel no need to mix them, however.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by kris
Re: style or instrument?
We have a clarinet player/whistle/flute player around these parts.He even went so far as to get an A clarinet. He would play the clarinet mostly on waltzes. But he hasn't been using it as much since he got his flute.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by McMandolin
Re: style or instrument?
MM, I would say that an important part of allowing that person into your tune learning session is letting them know that what they are doing is out of the "norm" - at least these days, and to talk to them about things like session etiquette, so that they don't automatically expect that they can go out into the "real world" and be freely accepted - even if they end up playing ITM beautifully on the clarinet.
Pete
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Reverend
Re: style or instrument?
Well, you COULD just try it @ one of the sessions in Ghent. See how everyone feels about it.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Gorgash
Re: style or instrument?
@ ottery, i'll get your question through to the clarinetist.
and i'm quite sure he'll turn up one day (he does play at the boombaljams).
i presume it's got something to do with him playing a clarinet and wishing to play our music,
not wanting to learn an other instrument.
@ mikeyes, thanks for the info (mostly about virginia .. )
@ mcmandolin, there's quite a few clarinet players around, that do play french/flemish folk music
(he's one of them) but he's looking for something more! the french/flemish music is mostly played for
dancers, and we have a very lively dancing community around these days! (see www.boombal.be)
@ pete: i'll talk to the guy about your point. the TLS is not a real 'session' yet.
@ gorgash: i invited him
mm
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by MM
Re: style or instrument?
Ah, if we were to get hung up on the "but it's not a proper instrument", we'd have what... The harp and pipes only? At some point, every "accepted" instrument was not. Anyway, I believe it's far more important to learn the right "style", and that comes from listening and imitating far better than reading a tutorial, so the lack of clarinet specific books/etc should not be a problem if the musician is able to honestly listen to the sound, as played on other instruments, and do their best to replicate it on the clarinet within it's limits, and not introduce bits you'd use on the clarinet from other musical styles if you don't hear them in good ITM played on the accepted body of instruments. Just my $0.02
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by N9YTY
Re: style or instrument?
I guess the guy has to have the ability to play softly..........; I' m afraid that in an unamplified setting the other trad. instruments otherwise soon will be ' sent home ' (even amplified it' s a bit of a problem, I realised this when listening to the French / Belgian band Valerio ( partly ITM; accordion, fiddle, guitar, soprano sax ).
# Posted on September 4th 2005 by Henk Bos