Quite often, somebody(usually a guitarist/strummer!) will play a tune which you know doesn't really exist. Usually, you are able to guess what it is meant to be but it's fairly obvious that he/she has picked it up wrongly. Now, in many cases, it is played extremely well and doesn't sound unpleasant but you know that it's not the actual tune or even a different setting/variation. It's just in the player's imagination, even if he knows the title.
I hope I'm not sounding over critical or snooty about this. Really, I don't mean to be. It was just that I wondered what you all did in this situation.
There are several possibilities, eg
1. Sit, listen, and politely applause
2. Make an effort to play the tune with them, even although you know its not correct.
3. Politely suggest that it should be played slightly differently.
and so on. Generally, I would choose either options 1 or 2 but you might have other suggestions.
I always find that it's a mistake to ask where they got the tune and its title as it usually confirms your worst fears and you have to "bite your tongue" and not say something like "Planxty never played it that way on the album I've got" or similar.
Sorry, if I'm sounding a bit critical here. In many cases, the "culprits" are actually good musicians in many respects but they don't quite have a grasp of traditional music. I just wonder how I/you/we can tactfully direct them on to the right path.
Also, I should add, because it's not usually "beginning musicians"(in the general sense) who do this sort of thing I am often reluctant to say anything in case they either take offence or flatly refuse to "take a telling". A novice, on the other hand, will usually appreciate well intended advice and assistance re tunes.
It has happened to me too & I usually wait till they are finished, praise them, & then explain that I have a slightly different version & play it the way I know it.
I then try & chat about how each tune has many versions & that everyone should listen closely to any version they hear & select their favourite.
If they do follow that advice, then perhaps they will notice that everyone else actually plays it the same way, but not the way they play it.
Or you could just tell them to wise up, catch a grip & for jobees sake try & learn the bleedin' thing properly!!
If it is good why not just say"that's good, but is that "O'Neill,s March", it usually goes like this" and demonstrate. No harm done there unless we are dealing with shrinking violets.
I know an excellent player who I think sometimes improvises a tune, just to check who tries to pick it up and join in.
I try and busk the tune but I've asked him before whether he was just f@rting about. He laughed, but if a good musician at the session doesn't join in, he then tells me they don't have the guts to go for it because it's not written down. So it can be done on purpose too. As long as it happens once in a while, it does entertain me. More disturbing is if someone think they're doing the tune right and completely screw up. That'll be me!
I was just wondering how we can define what version of each tune is correct (unless you composed it). Within my family, we can all be playing the same tune but up to 6 different versions. I think it would become very boring if everyone was playing the same way.
Different areas have different versions because of their local styles. I myself play mainly traditional Irish music but also some Scottish music. Many tunes overlap therefore are played completely different in the Irish and Scottish styles. You are more of a musician if you can guide people.
It also depends on the instrument e.g. a tune that goes lower than a D gives rise to different versions on the tin whistle. This is another reason why tunes aren't played the same way by varying musicians.
A big part of the "folk process" or "oral tramsmission" or whatever you want to call it actually involves tunes being "misheard" "misrermembered" etc. 60 years ago that might have meant a Clare musician hearing a tune from a Sligo player at a dance, then going home and playing it as best he could remember, but filling in some areas with Clare-isms where his memory was faulty.
Today it might mean you or me hearing a Planxty track a few times, then going away and playing the tune and filling in with a few of our own personal touches (gleaned from whatever influences and individual quirks we have) where our memory is faulty.
As far as I know, we do not really have a duty to play things exactly as we hear them. In my experience, if I learn a tune note for note from a recording, that's no guarantee it's going to be how anybody else plays it anyway.
When I hear somebody play a tune differently than me I think "how interesting" and I either like my setting more or their setting more. What I like is to hear their version, then maybe offer to let them hear mine, have a little chat about it and then maybe look for a tune we can play together.
I don't agree that the setting/variation is non-existent. It might be a new setting or variation but once it plays it certainly exists; even if it is never played again.
I agree with Kris regarding how tunes naturally get changed. Prior to the invention of tape recorders I suspect that most settings developed more by accident than by intentional changes made to the tune.
Heck, another example of all this is when the A part of a tune gets combined with the B part of a second tune. I can think of several tunes where this can happen and sound like a good tune (were it not for the fact that you know the existing two tunes...). There are at least a few tunes that have A parts so like another tune that I have wondered if something like this didn't happen to them.
John J,
You have a lot more confidence than I do. There are way to many similar tunes and different settings out there for me to be labelling anything I don't recognize as "non-existant." I might go as far as to say, "that is similar to, but different than, something I play," and maybe show them by playing the tune I know, but that is as far as I would go. If they say "oops," well, then it was a mistake. But they may very well not think it is a mistake, and maybe in their circle of musicians, it is not. I guess, the way I look at it, unlike classical music, there are no "right" paths in this music, only "different" paths (maybe a few paths are preferrable to others, but "right" is probably too strong a word).
Interesting thread John. I guess this is where there are larger differences between the Scottish & Irish traditions. Anyone please put me right if I'm totally off-beam...
In my (limited) experience, tunes in Scotland are more likely, but not necessarily have been taken from the dots and consequently, due to this rigidity, there is more likely to be a "correct" version of any particular tune. Whereas, the "folk" tradition is more evident and, accepted in Ireland, due to ear playing predominating.
Long live the "folk" tradition, and hopefully it'll get more of a grip in Scotland than it has at present - I love to hear tasteful variations of tunes!
Although, having said that, sometimes people do play minging versions of tunes, which you might describe as err..........WRONG!
You have to play with the tune, it's just their variation.
A guy called Tom Smith told me an Accordian young accordian player walked in the bar and was perfectly playing all the tunes and was all chuffed about it. His friend turned round and said to the accordian player "Well, you got all the notes" and he was looking all chuffed with himself but he ment it as an insult.
Who cares if it's not your version, or not a version you like. It's no biggie.And it does exist as it is their variation and their way of playing it.
Oh dear, obviously I came over as a bit harsh. Really, I'm not talking about different styles of playing, different settings or variations, even deliberate changes, or a few different notes here and there. I'm all for a bit of innovation and experimentation too under certain circumstances.
Ron's right in a way though. It has seemed a bit more rigid in Scotland until recently and probably more players learn from the dots, although many play by ear too(I do both). Aly Bain, for instance, is an "ear player" and admits himself that his sight reading is very limited.
No, it's usually fairly obvious when someone hasn't grasped the idea of the tune. As I say, it's often played very well and still enjoyable to listen to. In a band situation, it wouldn't really matter but in a session the poor chap(ess) invariable ends up playing it on his/her own.
I believe in the "folk process" too but not to the extent where it is used just as an excuse for being sloppy. There are quite a few examples of this within the tune section here.
John, you are kind of arguing contrary points here. One the one hand you are saying that they fail to grasp the tune and then on the flip side you say its played very well and still enjoyable to listen to. Ultimately the question one has to ask is how can you be sure that the person just didn't learn a setting of the tune that you are not familiar with?
Believe me, I don't claim to be a great musician myself and there's many tunes and settings I don't know. However, I've been around the music in general and listened to it long enough to know when something just isn't quite right about a tune. Of course, there's different settings, variations, even mistakes(which I make constantly). Also, most of us never play a tune exactly the same way twice.
I'm really talking about a particular type of musician here--one who is usually fairly new to playing traditional tunes but who is possibly fairly accomplished in other forms of music even folk music itself. Everyone has to start somewhere and I used to do something similar when I first started playing tunes. There were versions which were "in my head" or those which I picked up incorrectly from albums, That's why I'm not wishing to come over as being critical.
Basically, all I'm asking is what we should do in such a situation. My instinct and usual approach is to be tactful.
"but you know that it's not the actual tune or even a different setting/variation"
My tuppence worth - there are lots of different tunes out there that share the same or a very similar name. So, it's very difficult to be certain that the tune you hear (especially when strummed) is 'correct' or not. Likewise, there are many variations on the same tune that sound almost nothing like the one you might know.
I know this from personal experience of having learnt a tune from a book (with a tape to listen to) only to find a tune by the same name (here or elsewhere) that sounds nothing like it. Who is wrong? The Irish musician who wrote the book or the person who posted the tune? I would always hesitate to tell another musician to "catch a grip & for jobees sake try & learn the bleedin' thing properly" except in extreme jest and only with somebody I know well.
The problem with strumming is that you can substitute lots of chords (especially if you are good) that add interest and fit perfectly as an accompanyment but sound, when played alone, almost completely different to the standard 'basic' chords.
On a personal note, if anybody told me I was playing a tune wrong, I'd be more than happy to listen to their version and I might or might not accept their way depending on whether I think they've got it wrong
Non existent tunes
Non existent tunes
I'm sure you've all experienced this.
Quite often, somebody(usually a guitarist/strummer!) will play a tune which you know doesn't really exist. Usually, you are able to guess what it is meant to be but it's fairly obvious that he/she has picked it up wrongly. Now, in many cases, it is played extremely well and doesn't sound unpleasant but you know that it's not the actual tune or even a different setting/variation. It's just in the player's imagination, even if he knows the title.
I hope I'm not sounding over critical or snooty about this. Really, I don't mean to be. It was just that I wondered what you all did in this situation.
There are several possibilities, eg
1. Sit, listen, and politely applause
2. Make an effort to play the tune with them, even although you know its not correct.
3. Politely suggest that it should be played slightly differently.
and so on. Generally, I would choose either options 1 or 2 but you might have other suggestions.
I always find that it's a mistake to ask where they got the tune and its title as it usually confirms your worst fears and you have to "bite your tongue" and not say something like "Planxty never played it that way on the album I've got" or similar.
Sorry, if I'm sounding a bit critical here. In many cases, the "culprits" are actually good musicians in many respects but they don't quite have a grasp of traditional music. I just wonder how I/you/we can tactfully direct them on to the right path.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Non existent tunes
Also, I should add, because it's not usually "beginning musicians"(in the general sense) who do this sort of thing I am often reluctant to say anything in case they either take offence or flatly refuse to "take a telling". A novice, on the other hand, will usually appreciate well intended advice and assistance re tunes.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Non existent tunes
It has happened to me too & I usually wait till they are finished, praise them, & then explain that I have a slightly different version & play it the way I know it.
I then try & chat about how each tune has many versions & that everyone should listen closely to any version they hear & select their favourite.
If they do follow that advice, then perhaps they will notice that everyone else actually plays it the same way, but not the way they play it.
Or you could just tell them to wise up, catch a grip & for jobees sake try & learn the bleedin' thing properly!!
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Non existent tunes
If it is good why not just say"that's good, but is that "O'Neill,s March", it usually goes like this" and demonstrate. No harm done there unless we are dealing with shrinking violets.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Non existent tunes
I know an excellent player who I think sometimes improvises a tune, just to check who tries to pick it up and join in.
I try and busk the tune but I've asked him before whether he was just f@rting about. He laughed, but if a good musician at the session doesn't join in, he then tells me they don't have the guts to go for it because it's not written down. So it can be done on purpose too. As long as it happens once in a while, it does entertain me. More disturbing is if someone think they're doing the tune right and completely screw up. That'll be me!
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by Cath
Re: Non existent tunes
I was just wondering how we can define what version of each tune is correct (unless you composed it). Within my family, we can all be playing the same tune but up to 6 different versions. I think it would become very boring if everyone was playing the same way.
Different areas have different versions because of their local styles. I myself play mainly traditional Irish music but also some Scottish music. Many tunes overlap therefore are played completely different in the Irish and Scottish styles. You are more of a musician if you can guide people.
It also depends on the instrument e.g. a tune that goes lower than a D gives rise to different versions on the tin whistle. This is another reason why tunes aren't played the same way by varying musicians.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by S.E.B.
Re: Non existent tunes
A big part of the "folk process" or "oral tramsmission" or whatever you want to call it actually involves tunes being "misheard" "misrermembered" etc. 60 years ago that might have meant a Clare musician hearing a tune from a Sligo player at a dance, then going home and playing it as best he could remember, but filling in some areas with Clare-isms where his memory was faulty.
Today it might mean you or me hearing a Planxty track a few times, then going away and playing the tune and filling in with a few of our own personal touches (gleaned from whatever influences and individual quirks we have) where our memory is faulty.
As far as I know, we do not really have a duty to play things exactly as we hear them. In my experience, if I learn a tune note for note from a recording, that's no guarantee it's going to be how anybody else plays it anyway.
When I hear somebody play a tune differently than me I think "how interesting" and I either like my setting more or their setting more. What I like is to hear their version, then maybe offer to let them hear mine, have a little chat about it and then maybe look for a tune we can play together.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by kris
Re: Non existent tunes
I don't agree that the setting/variation is non-existent. It might be a new setting or variation but once it plays it certainly exists; even if it is never played again.
I agree with Kris regarding how tunes naturally get changed. Prior to the invention of tape recorders I suspect that most settings developed more by accident than by intentional changes made to the tune.
Heck, another example of all this is when the A part of a tune gets combined with the B part of a second tune. I can think of several tunes where this can happen and sound like a good tune (were it not for the fact that you know the existing two tunes...). There are at least a few tunes that have A parts so like another tune that I have wondered if something like this didn't happen to them.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by bill_mchale
Re: Non existent tunes
John J,
You have a lot more confidence than I do. There are way to many similar tunes and different settings out there for me to be labelling anything I don't recognize as "non-existant." I might go as far as to say, "that is similar to, but different than, something I play," and maybe show them by playing the tune I know, but that is as far as I would go. If they say "oops," well, then it was a mistake. But they may very well not think it is a mistake, and maybe in their circle of musicians, it is not. I guess, the way I look at it, unlike classical music, there are no "right" paths in this music, only "different" paths (maybe a few paths are preferrable to others, but "right" is probably too strong a word).
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Non existent tunes
If someone's playin' it, it ain't nonexistant.
KFG
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: Non existent tunes
Interesting thread John. I guess this is where there are larger differences between the Scottish & Irish traditions. Anyone please put me right if I'm totally off-beam...
In my (limited) experience, tunes in Scotland are more likely, but not necessarily have been taken from the dots and consequently, due to this rigidity, there is more likely to be a "correct" version of any particular tune. Whereas, the "folk" tradition is more evident and, accepted in Ireland, due to ear playing predominating.
Long live the "folk" tradition, and hopefully it'll get more of a grip in Scotland than it has at present - I love to hear tasteful variations of tunes!
Although, having said that, sometimes people do play minging versions of tunes, which you might describe as err..........WRONG!
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Non existent tunes
You have to play with the tune, it's just their variation.
A guy called Tom Smith told me an Accordian young accordian player walked in the bar and was perfectly playing all the tunes and was all chuffed about it. His friend turned round and said to the accordian player "Well, you got all the notes" and he was looking all chuffed with himself but he ment it as an insult.
Who cares if it's not your version, or not a version you like. It's no biggie.And it does exist as it is their variation and their way of playing it.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by ecidralla
Re: Non existent tunes
Oh dear, obviously I came over as a bit harsh. Really, I'm not talking about different styles of playing, different settings or variations, even deliberate changes, or a few different notes here and there. I'm all for a bit of innovation and experimentation too under certain circumstances.
Ron's right in a way though. It has seemed a bit more rigid in Scotland until recently and probably more players learn from the dots, although many play by ear too(I do both). Aly Bain, for instance, is an "ear player" and admits himself that his sight reading is very limited.
No, it's usually fairly obvious when someone hasn't grasped the idea of the tune. As I say, it's often played very well and still enjoyable to listen to. In a band situation, it wouldn't really matter but in a session the poor chap(ess) invariable ends up playing it on his/her own.
I believe in the "folk process" too but not to the extent where it is used just as an excuse for being sloppy. There are quite a few examples of this within the tune section here.
# Posted on August 18th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Non existent tunes
John, you are kind of arguing contrary points here. One the one hand you are saying that they fail to grasp the tune and then on the flip side you say its played very well and still enjoyable to listen to. Ultimately the question one has to ask is how can you be sure that the person just didn't learn a setting of the tune that you are not familiar with?
# Posted on August 18th 2005 by bill_mchale
Re: Non existent tunes
Trust me, Bill.
Believe me, I don't claim to be a great musician myself and there's many tunes and settings I don't know. However, I've been around the music in general and listened to it long enough to know when something just isn't quite right about a tune. Of course, there's different settings, variations, even mistakes(which I make constantly). Also, most of us never play a tune exactly the same way twice.
I'm really talking about a particular type of musician here--one who is usually fairly new to playing traditional tunes but who is possibly fairly accomplished in other forms of music even folk music itself. Everyone has to start somewhere and I used to do something similar when I first started playing tunes. There were versions which were "in my head" or those which I picked up incorrectly from albums, That's why I'm not wishing to come over as being critical.
Basically, all I'm asking is what we should do in such a situation. My instinct and usual approach is to be tactful.
# Posted on August 19th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Non existent tunes
"but you know that it's not the actual tune or even a different setting/variation"
My tuppence worth - there are lots of different tunes out there that share the same or a very similar name. So, it's very difficult to be certain that the tune you hear (especially when strummed) is 'correct' or not. Likewise, there are many variations on the same tune that sound almost nothing like the one you might know.
I know this from personal experience of having learnt a tune from a book (with a tape to listen to) only to find a tune by the same name (here or elsewhere) that sounds nothing like it. Who is wrong? The Irish musician who wrote the book or the person who posted the tune? I would always hesitate to tell another musician to "catch a grip & for jobees sake try & learn the bleedin' thing properly" except in extreme jest and only with somebody I know well.
The problem with strumming is that you can substitute lots of chords (especially if you are good) that add interest and fit perfectly as an accompanyment but sound, when played alone, almost completely different to the standard 'basic' chords.
On a personal note, if anybody told me I was playing a tune wrong, I'd be more than happy to listen to their version and I might or might not accept their way depending on whether I think they've got it wrong
# Posted on August 19th 2005 by JonB