Last Friday I spent the night recording in a spacious wooden cabin in the deep forests of south-east Norway. My good friend, the Whistle Player, had just purchased his own portable studio, and it was time to break in the new tech. (For those wandered in the ways of recording gear, he got a new Mac Powerbook, Cubase, a really neat external Lexicon soundcard with many clever contraptions and a shockmounted microphone with tubes....apparently the money came from a leftover budget in a research programme to document.....). Luckily I also have a friend who is an accoustic sound engineer of high acclaim, when not a computer specialist, who we coaxed into joining us for tutoring the Whistle Player in the use of his newfound goodies,with pints and a trip to the countryside. I had the dream job of driving and playing the fiddle, for the boys to have some material to work on. So the evening/night went on with me playing tunes and the boys shifting microphones, talking about frequencies, drinking beer, discussing sustain, more beer, more talk etc.
The next morning, our friend the Sound Guy gave the Whistle Player some hints and tips on mixing strategies, while we listened through a lot of the material. Now, listening to myself was a wake-up call. This was the first time I have been recorded solo and with brilliant sound at that (well done lads), and the first thought to strike was : What's missing? But I already knew the answer to that one.....Bad Rolls. For a long time now I have avoided (more and less conciously, depending on setting, drink etc.) rolls. I have eased into bowed triplets, bowed cuts, slurred triplets, slides, but No Rolls. I mean, I have learned the how of the roll, but I haven't sat down to play my 7000 Rolls. Now I have certainly learned the why. Today I have practiced rolls with steady bow speed and a "flick" of the ring finger. My hand is aching. Anybody got any good lefthand strengthening exercises to improve power, speed and precision?Apart from the obvious-More Rolls, I mean. I found that changing my left hand grip (from a grip to a mere "rest") on the fiddle accomdated the roll a bit, but I am still a good 6950 rolls behind schedule.......oh,and thanks to all the posters on previous threads on rolls. I found myself best at home with the Burke Method by way of Mr. Harmon.
That was nice to get it out. I am of to the session to play more Rolls.
Have a good time of day/night in your local time zone.
Snorre
Hey I'm glad to hear somebody's found those old threads to be helpful!
Since you're liking the Burke Method, I'd suggest three things for getting your rolls nice and crisp.
(1) More rolls. Yep, another 6,950 should about do it.
(2) Use more cuts in your playing. For the percussive type of cuts that separate two notes of the same pitch (e.g., |dB{d}BA| where the {d} is the right ring finger flicking against the string to break the B note in two, all on one bow stroke), the lefthand motion is basically the same as in a roll, just minus the lower note of the roll.
(3) Instead of strength, think about developing relaxed finger speed. The "pop" in a Burke style roll comes from that ring finger (or fourth finger on rolls around the note held by the ring finger) flicking at the string with the suddenness of a cobra strike. But it takes almost no "strength" at all.
Good on you for hearing an area you want to improve, rolling up your sleeves, and getting to work on it. I've grown lazy and my playing shows it.
God, what caught me off guard over the last few weeks was that once I got tired (and then stayed tired, it was a festival after all), I started missing my rolls, especially the second finger rolls. Very aggravating. Obviously I need to work more on my rolls, too.
Hi Snowy,
Good luck with your rolls. They have some good rolls at the bakery - eat & enjoy & keep practicing.
Won't make it down to the session today, maybe on saturday?
Halldor
A Snorre, it's the magic how to play without practicing pills you'll be wantin' then.
Ok, I'll give ya the roll pill, but you'll have to pay me 6950 more rolls, in advance.
Will is absolutely right. Rolls don't require strength at all. It's a matter of speed and muscular coordination, done with loose and relaxed fingers and developed by. . .repetition. The string is actually depressed more by the inertia of the finger than anything else.
Sorry, but I canna change the laws of biomechanics.
Just like melody the rhythm is more important than the speed, so be sure to practice at a speed you can execute with the proper rhythm, or when you try to speed it up you'll just play the wrong rhythm, faster, and things will go all to hell, but in a hurry.
Of course, I'm a celiac, so I'm not allowed to do rolls, so what the hell do I know about them anyway.
What's this new ornament, Will, that you call "rolling up your sleeves"? Is that fancier than cutting up your sleeves, or just easier on the clothing budget?
Banjo just might work with Green Day (better than any other instrument I pretend to play). It would fit right into the whole "American Idiot" theme. Where's my tooth blackout gunk? (searching around in my banjo case)
KFG : I think the "fingers falling off" was due to many reps of an unfamiliar movement
The difficultiy of first practicing in the house and then going to the session, was tempo. Even though it turned out that the first half of yesterday's session was fairly slow, rolls got messy quickly. But that's life I suppose.....
" I think the "fingers falling off" was due to many reps of an unfamiliar movement"
Yes. Muscular movement is done with pairs of muscles. The contraction of one muscle moves the joint in one direction and the contraction of the other moves it back. That means that when one of them contracts the other has to stretch in coordination.
If you practice a new motion too quickly the muscles don't know how to coordinate properly. The muscle that needs to stretch doesn't do so properly and may even try to contract as well. Your muscles oppose each other, doing isometric exercises internally, limiting free motion and creating fatigue. This effect is exacerbated if you try to perform the motion "too hard," which is, unfortunately, a rather natural thing to do for most people. One of these days I'm going to build a model joint to demonstrate this to students.
To make matters worse your muscles learn to do whatever it is they have done, not what it is you wish them to do, so if you practice a movement with this internal tension of muscle opposing muscle they will learn to perform the motion that way. You now have a well trained bad habit. It isn't actually hard to aquire a habit. It just takes time and repetition. The process is mechanical. Getting rid a habit is another story. They're supposed to be hard to rid yourself of, so you don't forget how to walk or something just when that leopard jumps out at you (not that some people don't manage to do that anyway).
Take the Tai Chi approach.
Always begin practicing a new motion slowly enough that the muscles can "keep up" with what you are doing with a free and "loose" motion and using no more force than is necessary, increasing speed only when you can perform the motion well and automatically, as naturally and thougtlessly as walking.
This may feel like a slow approach, but that feeling is psychological. Because you are always performing the motion optimally patterning actually takes place at an accelerated rate and without things you'll have to spend time relearning later on.
The Discovery of the Missing Roll
The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Last Friday I spent the night recording in a spacious wooden cabin in the deep forests of south-east Norway. My good friend, the Whistle Player, had just purchased his own portable studio, and it was time to break in the new tech. (For those wandered in the ways of recording gear, he got a new Mac Powerbook, Cubase, a really neat external Lexicon soundcard with many clever contraptions and a shockmounted microphone with tubes....apparently the money came from a leftover budget in a research programme to document.....). Luckily I also have a friend who is an accoustic sound engineer of high acclaim, when not a computer specialist, who we coaxed into joining us for tutoring the Whistle Player in the use of his newfound goodies,with pints and a trip to the countryside. I had the dream job of driving and playing the fiddle, for the boys to have some material to work on. So the evening/night went on with me playing tunes and the boys shifting microphones, talking about frequencies, drinking beer, discussing sustain, more beer, more talk etc.
The next morning, our friend the Sound Guy gave the Whistle Player some hints and tips on mixing strategies, while we listened through a lot of the material. Now, listening to myself was a wake-up call. This was the first time I have been recorded solo and with brilliant sound at that (well done lads), and the first thought to strike was : What's missing? But I already knew the answer to that one.....Bad Rolls. For a long time now I have avoided (more and less conciously, depending on setting, drink etc.) rolls. I have eased into bowed triplets, bowed cuts, slurred triplets, slides, but No Rolls. I mean, I have learned the how of the roll, but I haven't sat down to play my 7000 Rolls. Now I have certainly learned the why. Today I have practiced rolls with steady bow speed and a "flick" of the ring finger. My hand is aching. Anybody got any good lefthand strengthening exercises to improve power, speed and precision?Apart from the obvious-More Rolls, I mean. I found that changing my left hand grip (from a grip to a mere "rest") on the fiddle accomdated the roll a bit, but I am still a good 6950 rolls behind schedule.......oh,and thanks to all the posters on previous threads on rolls. I found myself best at home with the Burke Method by way of Mr. Harmon.
That was nice to get it out. I am of to the session to play more Rolls.
Have a good time of day/night in your local time zone.
Snorre
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by snorre
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Hey I'm glad to hear somebody's found those old threads to be helpful!
Since you're liking the Burke Method, I'd suggest three things for getting your rolls nice and crisp.
(1) More rolls. Yep, another 6,950 should about do it.
(2) Use more cuts in your playing. For the percussive type of cuts that separate two notes of the same pitch (e.g., |dB{d}BA| where the {d} is the right ring finger flicking against the string to break the B note in two, all on one bow stroke), the lefthand motion is basically the same as in a roll, just minus the lower note of the roll.
(3) Instead of strength, think about developing relaxed finger speed. The "pop" in a Burke style roll comes from that ring finger (or fourth finger on rolls around the note held by the ring finger) flicking at the string with the suddenness of a cobra strike. But it takes almost no "strength" at all.
Good on you for hearing an area you want to improve, rolling up your sleeves, and getting to work on it. I've grown lazy and my playing shows it.
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Will CPT
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
God, what caught me off guard over the last few weeks was that once I got tired (and then stayed tired, it was a festival after all), I started missing my rolls, especially the second finger rolls. Very aggravating. Obviously I need to work more on my rolls, too.
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Hi Snowy,
Good luck with your rolls. They have some good rolls at the bakery - eat & enjoy & keep practicing.
Won't make it down to the session today, maybe on saturday?
Halldor
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by MrGanAinm
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Recording yourself can be so helpful and discouraging at the same time, can't it?
And Will, you'd better hop to it. 6 weeks and 3 days before you need to be in tip top playing shape. Especially on the banjo, right?
Pete
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Reverend
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Why, is he sitting in with Green Day?
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Green Day with Special Guest Will Harmon on Banjo! I'd pay to see that!
Pete
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Reverend
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
"Apart from the obvious-More Rolls, I mean."
A Snorre, it's the magic how to play without practicing pills you'll be wantin' then.
Ok, I'll give ya the roll pill, but you'll have to pay me 6950 more rolls, in advance.
Will is absolutely right. Rolls don't require strength at all. It's a matter of speed and muscular coordination, done with loose and relaxed fingers and developed by. . .repetition. The string is actually depressed more by the inertia of the finger than anything else.
Sorry, but I canna change the laws of biomechanics.
Just like melody the rhythm is more important than the speed, so be sure to practice at a speed you can execute with the proper rhythm, or when you try to speed it up you'll just play the wrong rhythm, faster, and things will go all to hell, but in a hurry.
Of course, I'm a celiac, so I'm not allowed to do rolls, so what the hell do I know about them anyway.
KFG
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
What's this new ornament, Will, that you call "rolling up your sleeves"? Is that fancier than cutting up your sleeves, or just easier on the clothing budget?
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Banjo just might work with Green Day (better than any other instrument I pretend to play).
It would fit right into the whole "American Idiot" theme. Where's my tooth blackout gunk? (searching around in my banjo case)
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Will CPT
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Thanks all for tips and encouragment!
KFG : I think the "fingers falling off" was due to many reps of an unfamiliar movement
The difficultiy of first practicing in the house and then going to the session, was tempo. Even though it turned out that the first half of yesterday's session was fairly slow, rolls got messy quickly. But that's life I suppose.....
I'll try to report progression/frustrations etc.
Snorre
# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by snorre
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Halldor:
I am playing the Dub Fri and Sat, but will prolly play the session from round 2000 for warming up.
S
# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by snorre
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
" I think the "fingers falling off" was due to many reps of an unfamiliar movement"
Yes. Muscular movement is done with pairs of muscles. The contraction of one muscle moves the joint in one direction and the contraction of the other moves it back. That means that when one of them contracts the other has to stretch in coordination.
If you practice a new motion too quickly the muscles don't know how to coordinate properly. The muscle that needs to stretch doesn't do so properly and may even try to contract as well. Your muscles oppose each other, doing isometric exercises internally, limiting free motion and creating fatigue. This effect is exacerbated if you try to perform the motion "too hard," which is, unfortunately, a rather natural thing to do for most people. One of these days I'm going to build a model joint to demonstrate this to students.
To make matters worse your muscles learn to do whatever it is they have done, not what it is you wish them to do, so if you practice a movement with this internal tension of muscle opposing muscle they will learn to perform the motion that way. You now have a well trained bad habit. It isn't actually hard to aquire a habit. It just takes time and repetition. The process is mechanical. Getting rid a habit is another story. They're supposed to be hard to rid yourself of, so you don't forget how to walk or something just when that leopard jumps out at you (not that some people don't manage to do that anyway).
Take the Tai Chi approach.
Always begin practicing a new motion slowly enough that the muscles can "keep up" with what you are doing with a free and "loose" motion and using no more force than is necessary, increasing speed only when you can perform the motion well and automatically, as naturally and thougtlessly as walking.
This may feel like a slow approach, but that feeling is psychological. Because you are always performing the motion optimally patterning actually takes place at an accelerated rate and without things you'll have to spend time relearning later on.
KFG
# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by KFG
Re: The Discovery of the Missing Roll
Thanks KFG. I know all about over-eagerness in the startup phase (I took up running a year ago).
I think the Tai Chi approach is def the one for me
Snorre
# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by snorre