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Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Hi, i have been playing music for a number of years and am pretty handy at the guitar. I have been thinking for a while about buying a banjo and i need some advice as to what direction to take. I play mostly irish tunes with a mix of common hits. I want to be able to strum the banjo and play chords as i am singing, but also play out medleys. what is the best type to get to do this? also what is type of tunnings are involved and how do the chords(if any) differ fromt he fingering of guitar chords?

Thanks.

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by scully

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

I love the title of this discussion.

Realising you have a problem is always the first step to recovery, so chin up Scully I'm sure you'll pull through.

:-) Chris

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by ramblingpitchfork

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

I was just thinking the same thing, Chris. My first thought was "Yes, my friend, you certainly do".

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Conán McDonnell

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

thanks for the reply's lads. ill file them under U, for useless attempts of humor.

;)

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by scully

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Sorry Scully. You'll find many of my contributions filed under the same heading. The man to speak to on here is probably Coyotebanjo, although I guess he probably doesn't strum that many chords. Have you thought of getting a five-string? They're much better for accompanying songs.

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Conán McDonnell

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

If this is a serious post, Scully (Sounds a bit close to Sully!)....

Anyway, I wouldn't recommend "strumming" a banjo. It can be done but it's not very well accepted.

Now, if you want to play tunes, you should buy a tenor banjo (pref a shorter scale). Most of us tune it "Irish style" GDAE as with the fiddle or mandolin, although the standard tuning is CGDA. You can do it this way, if you wish, and there are other options.
If you prefer singing and accompaniment, perhaps a five string or G banjo might suit you better----pick, frail etc but preferably do not strum.. but you can always accompany yourself with a tenor banjo too.
The chords for a tenor banjo are very similar to that of the mandolin, although it's a bigger stretch. I've never played the five string variety.

Anyway, it depends what your after. Hope you're genuine, after all that. :-)

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Johnny Jay

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Great minds think alike, Conan. :-)

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Johnny Jay

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

:) or as some people would have it, "fools seldom differ"

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Conán McDonnell

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Thanks to john j.

This is a serious post, sorry for the niavity of it all. prehaps the best way to phrase it is that i want to accompany myself on a banjo as i would on guitar, so maybe strumming wasnt the correect choice of words.

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by scully

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Scully

Are you aware that you can get a guitar-banjo? One which is mechanically a banjo, but with six strings to guitar tuning. This you can play as you play your guitar already, but produce banjo sounds.

Dave

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by showaddydadito

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Oh, I'd forgotten about those. They're getting quite popular these days and might just be what you're after.

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Johnny Jay

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

dont know about guitar banjos. the price of things comes into play as well.

another stupid question: What is the difference between short scale and long scale?
If i am to play with others in a varied band which would ye recommened?

thanks lads!

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by scully

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

I'm thinking of buying a bodhran - I am told I need help.

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by geoffwright

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

The short scale tenor is 17 frets instead of 19.

The frets are a little smaller so it's easier for somebody who is used to playing a fiddle or mandolin. It's possibly not so good in terms of sound and options for "playing up the neck"(there are different views on this) but ideal for our kind of music where most of the tunes are played in the first position.

I'm not sure what you mean by a varied band. What kind of music?

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Johnny Jay

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Hello again,

I didn't have time to post the serious response earlier, andbut John J has in the interim said pretty much what I wanted to say.

In terms of actual models:I play a Clareen Oyster 17 fret tenor made by Tom Cussen's in Co. Galway. These are great banjos, in both 17 & 19 fter models. IIRC the Clareen range starts at around £400, which is expensive perhaps if you just want to try out the banjo, but I think a much better choice than the various far eastern mass produced banjos in this price range. "Student "banjos can be found cheaper, but will sound and feel it.

Cheers - Chris

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by ramblingpitchfork

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Price may well be an issue, but reading your post it does indeed seem to me as if you are crying out for a 6 string banjo.

Tenor banjo is a very versatile instrument as well though with a long tradition of strumming for both backing vocals and instrumental music and you are more likely to find a decent used one at a reasonable price.

There is also the plectrum banjo.. It's like a 5 string without the 5th string. Take a 5 string banjo and remove/mute the 5th string, instant plectrum banjo readily convertable back to a 5 string.

They're all tunable to suit your musical needs/whims.

Chord forms will, of course, vary with tunings, but it's really not an issue if you're willing to put a whole few hours into learning something new and it'll make a better musician out of you if you spend some time thinking about how and why chords are constructed and figuring some of them out on your own.

KFG

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by KFG

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

A five-string played clawhammer style could be really cool for the application you’ve described. For song accompaniment, it can provide chords in a way that’s more subdued and subtle than strumming with a pick and has a nice plucky sound for melody.

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Bob himself

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Scully, I think you're going to fit in round here, quite well. ;) Do be aware that there's quite a bit of prejudice against using the five-string banjo for tunes in Irish trad circles. You'll have to learn to deal with that, although from your reply to what I'm afraid was exactly what I thought myself, I think you'll do fine. :)

Of course, rather than one instrument, you can just be one of those guys who shows up with three instrument cases. Nothing wrong with taking along a banjo, guitar, and a zouk, right?

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Scully,

I see you have managed to elicit all of the traditional responses from the banjo nihilists (jokes) and the banjo lovers (feuds about which banjo is best) in one fell swoop. The problem is that you have a question that needs to be answered.

There are several types of banjos out there and with the exception of the guitar banjo all are alien to your experience. Here is a little roadmap:

Tenor banjo: The traditional ITM instrument for the past 40 years or so tuned in fifths (GDAE or CGDA) which makes it easy to play tunes on but because of the span of over an octave for chords makes it harder to utilize as an accompaniment for songs. The chords tend to be bright and loud if played fully. There is an answer and that is to play two or three string chords but that takes a little getting used to. There are two scales (an historical artifact) of 17 frets (21") and 19 frets (23".)

5String: Played in American folk music styles and also in Irish folk as exemplified by the Clancy Bros. Mostly played with finger picks or the clawhammer style, the 5string requires a higher level of competence to play ITM than the tenor. It is good for song accomaniment because the chord span is less than an octave and it sounds more in the guitar range. When well done the 5string is a lot of fun to listen to.

Guitar banjo: Used in the beginning of the last century in jazz and country blues. There is a distinct sound to this instrument but its main attrbute is volume (as is with all banjos) and finding a decent instrument is hard to do without a lot of money. If you go this route you will be in a definite minority, perhaps of one <G>.

Mandolin banjo: Combines the worst elements of both instruments. Nuff said.

Tenor guitar: While not a banjo, it is the second choice of a lot of tenor banjo players these days. It is good for songs and it has a unique voice for tunes. Not very loud, though.

I play all of the above and prefer the tenor banjo because unlike the 5string you don't have to retune or capo in the middle of a set and there is a strong tradition for this instrument in ITM. Also you can transition to mandolin and zouk easily from the tenor banjo. If you play the mandolin banjo in a session you are likely to have a beer poured over your head (both of them).

For your needs, however, you might consider the 5string because it gives you a good way to accompany your songs. I am assuming you are not familiar with the fifths tuning and may not want to learn (it is not that hard and more logical than guitar tuning) so the 5string is a lot closer at DGBD (fifth string is G) and is a chord played in open tuning so at the very least you only need to know 2 chords plus the open tuning.

I suggest you try a few out, however, because you may not like the banjo in any form. I never found this so but my first instrument was the trumpet and then the banjo. Guitar came later.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/aug05/righthand.html

# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by mikeyes

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

I have heard of this syndrome before, its called 'Banjobuytus'. Symptoms include impulse emotional desires for instruments with which one associates a likeness. The most common cure for it is to make a patient watch certain scenes from the film 'Deliverance' [1972] 200 times, tending to lead to immediate remission!!

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by bbrowne

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

You know, when I first asked a friend about playing the banjo he told me that it was a percussion instrument. . .you put it on the ground and jumped on it. When I saw him at a session a few months ago his banjo was sporting a brand new "no jumping" sticker. . .and I still picked up the banjo.

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by musicfan

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

LOL -- that's beautiful, musicfan!

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Remember that in 1972 there were no CGI enhancements - all the action was for real.

Gives you a new slant on Ned Beatty doesn't it?

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by showaddydadito

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Right.
Im getting worthwhile comments here and have got my choice down to between a 5 string and tenor.

I find that a lot of replies are of the thought that somethings can be morally wrong such as strumming a banjo, thsi doesnt bother me tho as im more of a crowd pleasing perfromer than a performer for performers.

so a lot of this will come down to price overall.
in relation to the tenor banjo, could someone explain why as to using it as an accompanying instrument is it hard to use? with relationt to the octave span mike keyes was refering to.

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by scully

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Mike's advice is good and he covers most of the aspects very well. I think you'd probably be better with a five string banjo as I feel that your heart lies more with "singing and accompanying yourself". There's much more scope to do this with this type of banjo and lots of different styles to try out.
As KFG suggests, you would probably be able to retune the five string to make it easier for playing tunes but this isn't strictly necessary, although I'll take Mike's word that it is harder(being a tenor banjo player myself)

Re the tenor banjo being "hard to use" as an accompanying instrument. It's not actually and, in fact, it's very easy. However, I'd suggest that it's very limiting and not really suitable for finger styles etc.

One more point. You only should perform to please a crowd whether they be an audience, punters in a pub or fellow musicians--if they wish to listen to you. However, in general, you *don't* perform to or for other players and musicians but rather play *with* them.
You'll also get many people here who will offer the view that a session is not a performance and, in most cases, I'm inclined to agree with this. So, by all means, play with other musicians for pleasure but don't think of it as "performing for performers".

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by Johnny Jay

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Well, Johnny J does bring up a good point -- if you're performing in front of a crowd, especially if they're there just to see you, then, sure, you don't have to care what a bunch of musicians think about your choice of instrument.

But if you're planning on playing in sessions (which is what this website is largely all about, so you can't truly go getting sniffy if you find that the outlook here is from that perspective), then be aware that lots of players think that a five string is not a good session instrument (rings too long, etc.) for this stuff, and you may take some flak for that until you can prove that you can make the instrument do something suitable.

I'm not saying they're right or wrong, mind you. I've never really understood why the five string is considered anathema in some circles and the tenor is not, myself, although I guess I get the "rings too long" argument.

I've just never heard a five string played at sessions except once by a really good player -- I might change my mind if I heard it played by a bad player, but that's more a function of the player and not the instrument to me. I didn't think it sounded that much different from the tenor.

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/820 for the first attempt of someone to explain the five string banjo to me (and to others!).

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

cheers zina.

the thing i find about other musicians is that they often judge more on music ability than the ability of a musician to bring something to a session.

anyway, im looking into things at the moment and ill let ye know how things pan out.

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by scully

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

"you would probably be able to retune the five string"

And as I also noted the same goes for tenor or plectrum. Tunings aren't set in stone and each has its advantages and disadvantages. Feel free to do what works for you in any given situation.

And a 5 string with muted (or absent) 5th string and capoed at the 5th or 7th fret *is* a tenor banjo. Instruments are what they are, not what they're named.

KFG

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by KFG

Idle musings when I should be working

A lovely muso, an Irishman that I know and love (bless his little cotton socks), once told me something along the lines of "we (musicians) spend a great deal of time training our ears and learning to have taste and style, and then end up having a very narrow definition of good music." (That's not an exact quote, by the way, I can't remember exaclty what he said, just the sense of it.)

And one of my former teachers once commented about someone we were talking about, "Isn't it funny how it doesn't matter if someone is a crap player if they're a good time?"

You can be aware that someone is a terrible player and still appreciate what they bring to a session in other ways. You can have a narrow definition of good music but still appreciate other kinds of music. That doesn't mean that you'll think the good hang is a good player or that the music you don't consider good is going to be good to your ears no matter how hard you try. Nor does it mean that someone is a terrible person if their musical abiilities aren't up to some kind of level that you've set as "good".

More or less, it's all good, but "good" is highly subjective. :)

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

See John Cage.

KFG

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by KFG

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Wouldn't it be a little dark?

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Wow! Funny you should mention John Cage. I’ve been working on transcribing his 4’33” for banjo. Trouble is, once I start playing it on the banjo, I just can’t seem to stop.

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by Bob himself

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

Hey, now you don't have to, Danny did it for you, Bob! http://thesession.org/tunes/display.php/2399

# Posted on August 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: Im thinking of buying a banjo and need help.

"Wouldn't it be a little dark?"

A little. I'd worry more about the damp though.

"Trouble is, once I start playing it on the banjo, I just can’t seem to stop."

You're obviously more of a gentleman than myself.

KFG

# Posted on August 4th 2005 by KFG

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