Apologies first for yet another accompaniment v's melody thread, but do please read on!
As a guitarist, I will either play very gently or play out more, depending on the session I'm in. However, I was at a session recently in the outskirts of Macroom during the Munster Fleadh, and due to the top quality music being played, was prompted to do some serious naval gazing regarding accompaniment for Irish traditional music (although, I have had similar feelings for a number of years). I was sitting beside a very good fiddle player, who very tastefully, would slip in occasional double stops - not always where I might have expected. Further to this, one of the box players did likewise by slipping in very occasional bass notes. I did try, as best I could, to anticipate what these players were doing, to either work with, or leave space for them. However, for this particular session, my thoughts tended towards thinking that any accompaniment, other than that which the melody players were doing themselves, was perhaps a bit superfluous.
At the risk of doing myself out of a job, I'd be very interested to hear specifically from melody players and, especially from any "top" Irish melody players (i.e. Irish musicians, playing Irish music all their lives), who might not normally be bothered with much of the nonsense on this site (I'm NOT criticising this site, just some of the threads - I do get quite a lot of enjoyment from the session.org). What might your thoughts be on this matter?
I would also like to add, that I often wonder about the suitability of the guitar to accompany Irish traditional music, and feel that the bouzouki family of instruments is probably better, if it's to be accompanied at all that is......
Who ARE you criticizing, then, the NON-"top melody players" on this site? I've known some players from Ireland who have played all their lives who are frankly sh*te (and who often will tell you so themselves), and many who are from places thousands of miles from Ireland who started playing ten years ago who are lovely players respected by people who know the music very well, and who don't match your description of "top" Irish players.
Sorry, I know you're not trying to start controversy, but I am really starting to get seriously sick of this "nonsense" thing.
...you're probably not going to get too many replies from anyone, since you've asked for only "top" Irish melody players. If you really want answers, why not open it up to the non-"top" Irish players. We've plenty of people here who qualify as knowledgeable musos who love and respect this stuff.
I love having a guitarist play with us Farewell to Ireland, it lifts the tune right off if well played. Bouzouki is also great. I think it pads out some of the instruments. I've played fiddle with just another banjo player or two and we all missed having someone smooth out the sound with a guitar.
Same with the bodhran, you can have just a whistle and bodhran, or fiddle and bodhran, great on jigs.
But to be honest Ron, this has come up a few times before. However, since it seems hard work to check through all the old thread, some themes are going to come up with newer members. A bit like someone turning up late for a session and starting a set that's been played already
As a Top Irish musician, albeit not really Irish, except by dint of me stepfather, whose family is around Cork, or was, more likely, as he's passed on now, and although I haven't been playing the music ALL my life, due to an extended period of dabbling with the pharmaceuticals, if you must put it that way, and rarely achieving the level of competence that might put meself in the same bracket as an actual MUSICIAN, though I have played in some storming sessions, I'd like to help you on this matter of the chordal accomplishments to the music. If only I could put a finger on the point I was trying to make.
It was on the tip of my tongue only the moment ago.
Really quite simple - I've been playing tunes for the better part od 30 years and I just LOVE it when John Boy plays the zouk alomg with me - sheer heaven!!!!!!!
Well Paddy of "The Chieftains" had a slew of Nashville's finest guitarists on both of the "Plank Road" CDs and the DVD. If he is fine with the strummers then I am sure it is ok.
Hi Zina, if you re-read my post, you'll see that it IS an open invitation to all melody players to comment, but I'm particularly interested in what any "top" Irish players might have to say - is there any harm in asking that question? I'm also not trying to criticize (or insult anyone).
Hi Cath, thanks for your amusing comparision to my late arrival at a session.
Ron, sorry to have misread your post -- however, my point still stands: a "top" Irish melody player may not be from Ireland, may have not played this stuff all their lives, and, if they don't bother with the "nonsense" on this site, they probably won't post to this thread either. (Although I'd love to see some of the lurkers I know are out there comment, so c'mon, you know who you are, go ahead and prove me wrong, I TRIPLE dog dare you. Don't make me name the names. *smirk*)
OK Zina, I concede your point re my definition of "top" Irish melody players, and I am aware of many non-Irish "top" musicians playing Irish music in other countries as well as in Ireland, who are highly respected by Irish musicians playing Irish music in Ireland. However, personally, I'm especially interested in what Irish musicians playing Irish music in Ireland think, AS WELL AS what other people think. What's the harm there? It's just a question, after all.
Well, Ron, before I let it go (and I promise I'll let it go after this), the harm is that it's a bit of snobbery, and a bit impossible as well -- I mean, who's going to admit to being a "top" Irish muso? Besides Bodhran Bliss, of course. Oh, and Mark, as per above, although I suspect he was actually being sarcastic.
Anyway, I was once told, while I was in Ireland, by an Irish citizen who plays Irish music and has for most of his life (he started at 4, so I suppose that's close enough), and who would be deemed at least "well known" by most, that he felt that the real innovations in Irish traditional music were happening outside of Ireland, "apart from these ridiculous hybrids of different kinds of music and Irish traditional music, of course", he said.
I don't know that I actually agree with that (certainly there's plenty of hybrids happening outside of the Irish environs), but that was his opinion. At least at that time on that day of that week in that month of that year. He may have changed his mind by now.
BTW, I'd like to see someone walk up to some tough in a bar and ask the question, "so, how long have you been a child molester/drunkard/insert something insulting here"! I mean, what's the harm, it's only a question, yes? LOL
Jesus, I can't believe people are still on this whole not born in Ireland thing. Has anyone ever heard of Steve Cooney, Liz Carroll or Mike McGoldrick?!!! They are all 'foreign' in theory. I was born in Ireland but I couldn't possibly consider myself to be in the same class as these guys or indeed many of the wonderful musicians I encounter on a weekly basis in London. I know a few people with absolutely no Irish ancestry who can play ITM better than most of you guys can dream about. So please for Gods sake stop classing being born in Ireland as the ultimate classification for being a genuine Irish traditional musician. I play in a few regular seisiúns in London and there is a guy there who has been playing for longer than most of us have lived, and he's German! Still most of us give him the respect he deserves, he is an Irish traditional musician and very bloody good at it too. So Ron P I know you didn't mean to cause controversy, but please next time remember that being Irish is not an essential qualification for being a 'top' traditional Irish musician.
To add to this, if you didn't feel adequate enough to accompany these musicians, that just means that you haven't learnt enough. Any good accompanist can hear where a tune player is going with a tune, presuming it is a tune they know. Every accompanist has to busk at times, but the best ones can even anticipate where the melody player is going in a tune they don't know. So in conclusion, if you found yourself feeling that you weren't needed in the seisiún, chances are you weren't because you aren't good enough. Sorry to sound so harsh, but I've been in the same boat myself and learnt from it. Most good melody players love a good backer, occasionally you'll come across the odd eejit who would tell Steve Cooney, Arty McGlynn and Donal Lunny to collectively feck off and let him play unnaccompanied! But you shouldn't worry about them, as I said, it sounds like you need to do some more homework. If both the fiddle player and accordionist were doing some harmony at the same time, that means it is a standard harmony for their style of playing. You also need to realise that tunes are played VERY differently in different regions, so a West Clare musician will play a tune completely differently to an East Clare musician, different feel, accompaniment style etc, so you need to study these things to get this chip off your shoulder. Believe me I understand where you are coming from, it is a harsh lesson I learnt myself. Thought I was the greatest guitarist in the world until I sat in with some seasoned Clare musicians a few years ago, then I realised I'd a lot more to learn, and always will, I still come unstuck at times with certain players, but it is a learning process so you've got to learn to deal with it. Think you need to learn this too, if you do you will become a great accompanist who will be respected by every decent tune player out there.
Ron P don't mess with Zina, that's our pit bull and she stays outside. She's been maltreated and taunted [by us] so [that] she can be vicious, especially in fights. She'll clamp onto you and never let go, so you have to use the breaking stick technique. Chuck her a biscuit and you should be okay.
If its any indication of suitability of guitar accompaniment, many of the top fiddler's use guitar accompaniment almost exclusively. Not sure if the suitability is unique to fiddle playing. Sure there are tunes that don't need guitar, but for a whole heck of a lot of them, it just really gives the tune uber drive. Think of how many albums Tommy People's has done with just guitar accompaniment be it Paul Brady, Alph Duggan etc. Also you have Liz Carroll and John Doyle and Martin Hayes and Denis Cahill. Then there's Steve Cooney who's played with so many greats. The list goes on. I was just in Ireland for 4 weeks and all the top sessions used guitar accompaniment. The ones in Doolin were perhaps the most impressive. FWIW, I actually didn't see a zouk the entire trip but that may be a freak accident (I was going to about 3 sessions a week). As a fiddle and guitar player, I know I really love the way the timbre of the guitar and fiddle jive with each other. If you're still having doubts about guitar accompaniment, give the Molloy, Brady, Peoples album another listen. Paul Brady plays a real "raw" style of accompaniment on the album which is so cool.
LOL -- you're such an idiot, Mark. A real picture of me would reveal that I'm overfed and too lazy to hang on for very long. But I'll take on the charge of being a bitch.
another great thing about that Molloy Brady Peoples Album is the fact that they tune to Eb a lot which corresponds to another discussion. But I agree, Paul Brady was a great traditional musician, such a shame he ended up writing sh*tty MOR songs with the likes of Ronan Bloody Keating!
I"m only "Top Irish" melodist, by dint of both me Granny's insistance and am bigger than most and can wrestle the contenders down ;->
I wasn't gonna say this, but
A) the music is perfectly complete, accompaiment is often welcome but not needed.
B) if you feel like a second class citizen, start learning the tunes, then you can be an arrogant melodist....like ME!!!!
Sarah McQuiad ( in her DADGAD book) points out that "You can't play the tune if you don't know it." & Chris Smith "coyotebanjo" pretty well expects you to play the melody as well in his excellent accompaniment book (don't remember the title). SO why don't you start learning tunes instead of just starting at yr navel. Then you can lord it over the other string-bashers.
Frankly, I can't stand anyone accompanying my melody playing. It's because they are usually in rhythm, which I'm not. Also, when I stop for 1-2 seconds to inhale and find the proper embochure again, they continue with playing, which is absolutely incompetent. After all, it's the melody instrument they should be following.
I think boxorox hit it on the head with "accompaniment is often welcome but not needed."
It's a shame the thread has drifted, cause I'd say "Well done, Ron" for being so aware on this. Specifically, the dangers of accompaniment when players are throwing double stops and drones around. This is such a marvelous effect that I would say if the accompanist is aware that they are in a session where this is being done frequently and to good effect, they would show great sensitivity by backing off of even sitting out. I am particularly aware of this because it is a style of fiddling that I love listening to and something which I do in my box playing a lot.
As for frisbee's comment that "if you don't feel adequate to accompany these musicians that just means you haven't learnt enough." I would say the fact that Ron is thinking about not playing all the time under every circumstance shows he has learnt a helluva lot - and his openness sets him up to learn much more. And supposing he eventually learns how to accompany the style he describes satisfactorily, he may still have the sense to ask whether it is an improvement on the unaccompanied.
Ron, I don't think you can be too surprised with the response you got form Zina. You hardly expected to sign off you post with a hint that what people write hear is nonsense, and then just get replies from the "top" players that maybe lurking.
Anyway, to answer your question, I think there should be no
accompnaiment if the melody players don't want it, but obviously so many do that is if by top you mean Kevin Burke,
Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy etc.
But if a melody pleyer doesn't want accompaniment, then fair play.
(on the Paul Brady thing, he still appears on albums accompanying ITM eg the recent Ciaran Tourish album and
more so these days plays his old songs, despite the recent contemporary albums which aren't that bad if you exclude RK)
Should have added that it is not always appropriate to accompany as some people have since pointed out. Some seisiúns work very well and nicely without a backer, others really benefit from the extra lift a good backer can give. It is probably always best to either ask politely if you can join or just sit and listen. 9 out of 10 times a good accompanist will be welcomed. 10 out of 10 times a bad accompanist will not be welcomed! To add to the comment about not knowing the tune. Almost every backer I know or have seen who is at a high or professional has developed an ability to accompany most tunes even ones they don't know. They hear the key first then listen out for the changes. There are some mad tunes which are almost impossible to follow like this, but most tunes can be backed very well using this method of listening while playing. I'm sure melody players realise this happens, because it is almost impossible for any backer to know every tune they've ever backed in a seisiún. Some melody players almost insist that you accompany every tune they play, even one's they've just written themselves. So I tend to disagree with the 'If you don't know the tune don't play it' policy as a whole, I would only agree with it in certain situations, but certainly agree with it when applied to backers who don't have good enough ears for this (probably about 90% of them).
It is always good to know the tastes of individual players, so there is no harm in asking what kind of accompanists they like, this will usually give you an idea what to do. If they say, 'I don't like any accompanists' you're better off leaving them alone and finding another seisiún. There is no reason for you to sit in shame with your head down, if you feel uncomfortable playing with certain people.Just either ask them what kind of accompaniment they like or get the hell out of there. And Ron I'm sorry if I came across a bit strict or rude in my previous posts, as others have said, realising that it is not always appropriate to accompany is one of the best things an accompanist can do. People are often more impressed with an accompanist who knows when not to play as apposed to one who just plays manically over everything with tons of 'interesting' chords.
It's clear that Ron P doesn't know what he's talking about. But to his credit, and I'm kind of defending him here, he has an inkling that he knows he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's started to accept that he may not be needed, which means he is at least listening. Well done Ron, you have your first foot on the long and winding yellow brick road to the emerald city.
Two things that are clear from the above 2 posts:
1 Neither frisbee nor michael have heard RonP playing.
2 -It's very easy to come to totally wrong conclusions from discussion posts on the Internet.
I guess that backers will always have problems when moving from session to session, because of the things that Ron is talking about. At his "home" or regular session his playing might be one of the things that keeps the other players coming back for more, wheras at another session the melodists may play in a manner that doesn't suit backing, or they may simply just not like backing at all. (oh, when I say "backing", I really mean "chordal playing", but its too much of a pain to type and also sounds a bit silly).
But I think it's a bit redundant to say that Irish music SHOULD or SHOULD NOT have backing. It can sound great. It can also sound horrible. But that's true of all of our playing isn't it? You may as well have a discussion called "Should ITM have Plinkey?"..........but I fear I know what the answer to that would be.......
yes, that's the point really. Every player is an individual, ragardless of the instrument. Some people gell, some people don't. And it has nothing to do with whether you scrape, toot or strum
Thanks Kenny, I appear to have stirred up yet another hornets nest. I guess I shouldn't have used the word "top".
I certainly won't back down on my nonsense comment on some of the content in session threads however - as with life in general, there might be a lot of it about - that's not to say that a lot of the nonsense isn't good fun, as it can be!
Regarding "Irish musicians playing Irish traditional music", I still don't see any harm in asking that question, as that's the home of "ITM". I certainly wouldn't take offence if someone asked the same regarding Scottish traditional music.
I like accompaniment a lot. I've even gotten so into the tune with accompaniment that I forget I'm playing the melody and mess the whole thing up. That said, too much of anything will kill ya. So all in moderation.
By the way, I do think that accompaniment is a learned process with each individual a 'backer' will paly with. For traditional and highly improvised music, I'd say it's pretty darn near impossible to do a stellar job until you get to know the melody players style more intimately. That takes time.
A few of us had a session at a secret location last Sunday. No names mentioned, just some good (and me!)players of melody instruments, plenty of not-so-commonly played tunes, no newbies, no percussion, no backers.
Ron, you used the I word.
Erm, wait a minute... Ron you used the I abbreviation. No, that still sounds crap. I know it's an old chestnut but why is the word "abbreviation" so bloody long?
Anyway, the correct phrase is "Ireland is the home of Irish Traditional Music", as any fule kno
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here yet as I've skimmed some of the posts. The "top" melody players as opposed to the "better" or "best" may not always be the same people. It's all subjective, anyway, but there will be(and are) many relatively unknown musicians playing in sessions throughout the world who are equally as good and, in many cases, arguably much better than a lot of famous "top" names.
I'd also suggest that those players who concentrate on session activities may take a different view than "top" players(whatever these are) who are more used to playing gigs and dabbling in elaborate arrangements. That's not to say, of course, that these players would necessarily have different views about what should happen when they are in a session situation. They would probably, in most cases, accept and conform to what was going on at the particular time' i.e. they'd leave the day job behind.
Michael, like it or not, that's where that genre mainly developed. Scotland is the home of Scottish traditional music, likewise Cape Breton Island the home of that genre etc, etc. These different genres may well be played (very well) in other parts of the globe, but Ireland is still the original home of "ITM".
Now might we get back to my original question - please!
Hi Conán, apologies for using the dreaded "I word" - you're quite right to point that the correct phrase is "Ireland is the home of Irish Traditional Music".
I thought about not adding to this thread, but decided to chime in to say that I am thoroughly sick and tired of discussing this topic, and I bet many others are as well. Being both a backer and melody player, I keep looking into these threads, just like I can't tear my eyes away from a car wreck on the side of the road. Or like I was rivetted to the TV last night, when Matt Clement, the Red Sox pitcher, was hit in the head with a ball so hard it looked like he was dead (I hear he will be OK, fortunately). In order to heal, you sometimes have to refrain from picking at scabs. Maybe we should give it a rest.
Ron,
I don't think you can simplify things quite as easily as that. The music has also developed as Irish people emigrated and travelled overseas to find work. So, you have a strong Irish-American, London Irish scene and so on. So, many of the tunes and syles didn't originate from Ireland itself, though that's obviously where the roots of the music came from. Nowadays, it seems to be universal and is played all over the world by people of many nationalities. The cosmopolitan style played in many sessions in cities throughout the world will obviously differ from local Sligo, Donegal styles etc but it is still Irish music.
Also, by your argument, Scotland could also claim to be the home of Cape Breton music as much of their repertoire consists of old Scottish tunes which the early immigrants brought with them. Also, many well known Irish tunes are originally Scottish and vice versa.
As an exile of Inverness who has now lived in a few different places, I think "Home" is where you happen to be at the time. The same criteria can apply to various genres of music.
So Ireland isn't the home of Irish Traditional Music? I suppose England isn't the home of the English language then?
Catch yourself on!
Ireland is where it comes from, that's it's home.
C
Hi John J, fair argument - Cape Breton Island was a bad example. The reason I asked my original question, and requested feedback especially from Irish players, is because I go over a few times each year - I generally don't play that much Irish Traditional Music in Scotland - and just wanted opinions from players of the music in Ireland. It might be simpler to ask people next time I'm across, than post a relatively straightforward question on this forum!
But Ireland IS the home of Irish music. That's why it's called, er, Irish Music. It may be played all over the world by people with no other connection to Ireland. But it's from IRELAND. As music, it belongs to no-one, fair enough, but it's plain daft to disagree with the simple phrase "The home of irish Music is Ireland" It really IS that simple.
Ron, as I understand your original post, you were at a session where you were unsure what your playing was contributing to the music as a whole. That to me says two things.
1) You were listening closley enough to the music to be concerned about this in the first place. That should tell you that you are the best judge of your own question. Trust your own judgement over that of any of us fools on here. Some sessions will benefit enormously from your playing, and in others you will find it difficult to add anything of value. That doesn't mean that backing in session music is good or bad in itself, it just demonstrates that different sessions are different animals with different needs, different strengths and weaknesses. It also doesn't pass judgement about your abilities. Listen to the session and you will know yourself whether to play, and how to play.
2) This is not specific to strummers. I play melody on a mandolin, and were I playing in a session where my playing wasn't adding anything to the music as a whole, I'd stop playing, and rightly so. So for the question "Should ITM be accompanied", you could just as easily add "by obtrusive and unwieldy fiddle melodists", as you could "by obtrusive and unwieldy strummers".
Hope this makes sense. I'm feeling sleepy after lunch.
This isistance on nationality really is starting to get my goat.
English language? Just think about that. It's latin based. And it's the most widespread language in the world. It migrates with people it evolves, it borrows, it transforms, it upsets. And just where about in England does it come from? Do people who live in the soutern half of the town Berwick upon Tweed own it, and those half a mile away merely borrow it? Has Cornwall always been in England. Did William 1st speak Fremch? Christ I hate thes glib generalisations
It's not all from Ireland either, Conan. As I've already suggested, many of tunes were imported from elsewhere or composed by Irish and non Irish people outwith Ireland. Some tunes e.g. Calliope House, McArthur Road were written by a Geordie(Dave Richardson) and adopted into the Irish(and other) session scenes.
Yes, I agree that the genre originated in Ireland but that's not the same thing as being its home.
I have my own brand of music called "Plinkeys No 12 Coniston Avenue Olde Tyme Hollerin' music", (although I prefer the abbreviation PNCAOTHM) and not one of you lot can play it properly becasue you don't come from round here.
Saying it’s the home of the music is different form claiming ownership
Michael – you know that.
Scotland is the home of golf, Scotland doesn’t own golf
The Delta is the home of blues, doesn’t own it.
Ireland is the home of me, it doesn’t own me.
I think I might take Al Brown's advice in future and drive past the wreck by the roadside without looking (although it was me who crashed the car this time) - I'm signing off from this thread - it's just gone too far off track.
Thank you BegF. At least somebody understands my point.
Geez, if we were to take this "non-nationality" thing to it's extreme, maybe we shouldn't call it Irish music.
Yup, we're all off to the pub to play "music-whose-style-and- content-comes-largely-from-the-island-known-to-the-Romans-as-Hibernia-but-which-is-now-played-worldwide-and-has-borrowed-melodies-from-similar-cultures".
Don't think so.
ha ha . it ain't called Irish music, it's called diddley music. And yup, round here we all say, "we're off for a diddle." And yes, I sometimes gemerise too.
Actually, Cape Breton is the home of Scottish traditional music as well as the Scottish language and Scottish traditional dance, as any self-respecting Scottish musician, linguist or dancer will tell you.
Also, I think you shot yourself in the foot with that "top" business - no Irish native worth listening to would be caught dead responding to a call like that, as they'd get a royal p*sstaking for defining themselves as such.
Ron P, if ever you have this problem of double stops and bass notes again, just ignore it. Melody players rarely have a clue about harmony and chords. What you have to do is simply play louder and force them to conform to your harmony. You're the backer providing the rhythm and harmony for them so that they sound good. They should bloody well respect that.
Re the origins of Irish music, if we want to go to extremes we could say Irish music should be called African music because that is where everything is supposed to have started! If you listen to some Malian Kora music you might even believe what I said there is true
No but yeah but there is an element of truth in what I'm saying, even though I said it in jest. There's been a few time when I've been playing with an accordionist or whatever and they've been pumping out this 3 chord bass which bears no sensible harmonic relationship to the actual tune, and I've managed to find some cool chords, and they clash with the accordion bass, and I just want to shout, DUDE, SHUT THE C'UP AND PLAY THE TUNE YOUR CHORDS ARE sh*t.
There was a programme on TV a bit back about how the early Gospel music of the southern United States sounds uncannily like early Gaelic singing. They were saying how one might have developed out of the other. Sadly I didn't see it myself, but Mrs. Plinky was most impressed. Apparently they got some gospel singers and gaelic singers together and they had a bit of a singing session that really brought out the similarities.
Ron, just re-reading your initial post there. There are certain melody players who sound like they've been playing together for years, and perhaps they have. I think that no matter how good an accompanist you are, it's very difficult to walk in "cold" to those types of sessions and fit right in.
I would imagine that at your local session you are probably more "in tune" with those musicians so I wouldn't worry about it.
Michael, that's where you and I differ. I never generalise. Ever.
Actually, Ron, I think it's only fair that someone who slams other threads and contributors for nonsense had his thread devolve into nonsense... ;)
Not that it was all nonsense. Basically, you have your answers: for some people, yes, always accompaniment, for others, it depends upon the players involved and perhaps even the situation, although you never got the "no never" that I'm sure is out there as well.
As for Conan's thing -- well, I'd agree that Ireland is the home of Irish trad music. But that doesn't mean that everyone lives at home with the 'rents, nor that everyone who still lives at home is somehow better than those who moved out.
Oh, and here's my two cents: the better the player, the less they need accompaniment to make the music sound good -- I'd listen to the best players unaccompanied all day long and never miss the backing. The less experienced the player, the more they need the accompaniment to make the stuff enjoyable to listen to.
Must be the weather. Or maybe it's post festival blues with you guys. Tempers fraying all round. I'm only here to get away from neuromuscular junctions for a few minutes and have a cupasoup. Oh well, finished now.... back to the grind....
Ron P's summation and query, and Frisbee's initial response, are both right on target. Accompanying instruments, in the right hands, can really push music onto a higher level. However, because ITM is melody-based and often played in modes that standard chords and progressions don't always fit easily, chordal accompaniment is not absolutely essential nor appropriate under all circumstances. That's a hard thing for accompanists to understand and accept, but it's true. This music predates chordal instruments, going back all the way to unaccompanied voice.
So, Ron's uneasiness at the session is a sensitive response to a tricky situation. Do you whip out your guitar and start wanging away under these circumstances? I wouldn't, or at least I'd wait for an appropriate opening. I've been in intimate, melody-rich sessions that were ruined by inappropriate or even clumsy accompaniment. I know professional ITM musicians who are now recording w/o accompaniment just because they don't want the tune to be transmogrified into something completely different. So, good form sometimes means not opening up your guitar or 'zouk case at all. When that happens, relax, have another pint, and enjoy the music. Great music is rare.
And the top players know who they are, but the vast majority of them have enough class not to bray about it.
I think Zina's point above is a good one about the better the player, the less they need strummers. This has nothing to do, of course, with "wanting" strummers, or rather, wanting your favourite strummer.
Someone said above that "we all missed having someone smooth out the sound with a guitar." What they really meant was "we all missed having the wall of sound to hide behind."
'Tis true, Mr. Gill. I've been the 'engine' at local sessions on guitar, driving the tempo or trying not to let it get out of the barn. Nothing wrong with that--it can be great fun, and when non-expert melody players have a solid foundation to stand on, they often respond vigorously.
However, when I sit down with really fine players, those who do it every other night and often for a living, "name" players, well, it's very clear that *they* don't really need me. They're happy to have me there, but it's a world of difference, and it's quite sobering. At that point, it's the craic that counts, and not the ego of some amateur guitarist who gets to hang with the big boys and girls.
Hi folks, I'm afraid some of the unpleasantness in this thread has scunnered me, and I won't be so inclined to submit a discussion in future. However, thanks to those who took my question at face value and gave a straight answer.
I must add that I don't understand how anyone can say that Ireland's not the home of Irish Traditional Music - I ask you!!!!!
Can I say Cape Breton is the home of Scottish music still? I can argue this point very convincingly, when pressed...
I'd have given you a straight answer, Ron, but I didn't feel qualified. Honestly. I decided to hang out in the peanut gallery let all those top irish musicians who don't normally post here have the floor.
I terribly sorry it didn't work out the way you hoped.
For the record, if I had to choose either a great guitar alongsider or a great piper / accordion / flute / banjo player to come over for a few tunes, I'd likely choose the melodist unless the guitar player was unusually handsome. I guess that indicates an inclination to unaccompanied tunes, although I still love good guitar playing.
Many if not most of the Irish people who've been playing all their lives that I've met seem to have the same leanings, but what with their conspicuous absence from session.org forums who can say for sure?
As the main author of the unpleasantness, I can tell you that I DID take your question at face value -- I objected to it. Why is that so hard for you to understand, Ron?
And, Michael Gill, the above-mentioned point is one that has been impressed upon ME -- the guy who leads one of the sessions I attend regularly often plays without accompaniment, and I can listen to him all day long, just him. But if it's just me, I'd better damn well have the backer, because my feel and pulse isn't near good enough to stand alone.
Myth expolding: some famous musicians do not have accompaniment on their recordings because they want it. They are either "encouraged" by the record label or feel pressure in other ways. I know for certain that one musician mentioned above recorded an album and only after it was released did he find out there was accompaniment.
Playing with another person changes the way that you play.
"There was a programme on TV a bit back about how the early Gospel music of the southern United States sounds uncannily like early Gaelic singing."
Plinkey, would that early gospel music be Sacred Harp? Might there be an archived recording somewhere? My wife's family has been part of that tradition for many generations and we'd love to hear or read about the program.
Bob, I didn't see the show myself, so all I can tell you is that it was on the UK's Channel 4 network, and it was called "The Gospel Truth". I did a bit of Googling and from what I can gather the main man behind this theory is a chap from Alabama called Professor Willie Ruff.
I don't really know much more than that, but have a look at at http://www.rense.com/general41/dehb.htm as it might help you get a springboard for some research. Good luck, and let me know what you conclude!
Myth holds up under pressure: A certain top melody player I'm friends with started his own label to have complete creative control, not to get out from under the pressure (if there was any in the first place) of hiring 'name' accompanists. He's happy to play with an accompanist, but prefers someone who is restrained and tasteful, rather than a rock star.
He's also quite insistent on playing tunes at relaxed tempos, which is of course another tempest in a teapot.
The assertion was not that all recording artists have backing forced upon them, but that the number of recordings with backing is not indicative of the numbers of melody players who find it desirable.
And it is a tautology to note that those players who desire backing don't have it forced upon them.
Irrelevance of myth: The issue of unwanted, superfluous, or other accompanists is true of more styles of music than just ITM. Jazz, pop, R&B, and other musicians and singers routinely have their material 'sweetened' in the studio, some against their will, in order to broaden or target public consumption. With the digital technology available in modern studios, and after 75 years of selling records, producers can do virtually anything to create a more marketable product, and they know what different segments of the public wants, and what sounds they are attracted to and why. You're complaining about how unfair the music biz is? That's not news, my friend.
But you're very right about how playing with other people can change the way you play, although that doesn't hold quite as true with more experienced players. Wtth them, it's more of a choice than an involuntary reaction.
"You're complaining about how unfair the music biz is? "
No. In fact, I'm not complaining about anything at all. I am agreeing with, and defending, Jode's argument, which did not include any concept of fairness.
As far as I can tell, you seem to be agreeing with it as well.
"Are you like this in person, KFG?"
In person I don't communicate with strangers by tacking a typed note up in the village square and going back hours later to see if anybody left a note in response.
Ireland is the home of ITM, just as England is the home of soccer. It's just that they are not very good at it, and ITM is still scorned in large parts of Ireland, it's considered to be old Ireland rather than the trendy "Celtic Tiger". Hence so many derogatory mentions of "Diddley-dee" by those who want to feel "superior" and modern.
“I’m afraid that some of the unpleasantness has scunnered (???) me, and I won’t be so inclined to submit a discussion in the future” –Ron P
Ron...Don't be put off....post again , again and again. Nobody owns this site (except, possibly, for Jeremy) and you may say what you wish ....I think most people read your question and take your actual question seriously, knowing you use your words loosely…as do I…I take it as all for semantics sake, hypothetical…to be taken with a grain of salt. I don’t have a reply to your intial question, but I'm sure enjoying the discussion!
Oh yah…and generalizations about a generalization is a generalization, so it too can’t be true ...wow that ryhmes
On that first point, I was just saying that you shouldn't take certain recordings by an artist with the initals TP as hard evidence on the side of "yes it should". By having a recording with accompaniment, one is not making the statement that this music should ALWAYS be accompanied.
The second point was left vague for a purpose. Recordings aside, I feel that if a musician, however famous or skilled, will change the way they play a tune when they play with someone else. Sometimes this is a good thing, sometimes it is a bad thing, and sometimes it is simply just a different thing.
I love to hear unaccompanied tunes. I also love to hear tunes with great accompaniment.
Not being a "top" musician directly from Ireland, this is only one twit's opinion.
Thanks to all of you who e-mailed me with words of encouragement - it's very much appreciated. However, I think I'm likely to become a "lurker" for now, though may occasionally post information (rather than discussion topics) of potential interest to others on this website.
Again, thanks to those who posted interesting comments on the subject of this thread.
Jode, your recent comments seem spot on regarding my own personal opinions and the accompaniment of Irish Traditional Music, especially ".... I feel that if a musician, however famous or skilled, will change the way they play a tune when they play with someone else. Sometimes this is a good thing, sometimes it is a bad thing, and sometimes it is simply just a different thing".
I recently heard the following comments made about the idea of accompaniment, or backing of ITM, and since I totally agreed with it, will try to convey the spirit of the sentiment if not the precise statements:
The dialogue between the musicians is dependent on all participants having equal status, relevant to the music, and depends also on the notion that everyone can hear and understand the dialogue, even when it approaches the edge of impossibility (or going over the edge). The synergy that makes the whole process exciting is the knowledge that you and your mates are elevating the musical form to its highest level, and edging even further, and you are alive and immersed in it.
What happens with "backing" is a bit different, although it could be the same if the "backer" doesn't feel like an accompanist.
Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Apologies first for yet another accompaniment v's melody thread, but do please read on!
As a guitarist, I will either play very gently or play out more, depending on the session I'm in. However, I was at a session recently in the outskirts of Macroom during the Munster Fleadh, and due to the top quality music being played, was prompted to do some serious naval gazing regarding accompaniment for Irish traditional music (although, I have had similar feelings for a number of years). I was sitting beside a very good fiddle player, who very tastefully, would slip in occasional double stops - not always where I might have expected. Further to this, one of the box players did likewise by slipping in very occasional bass notes. I did try, as best I could, to anticipate what these players were doing, to either work with, or leave space for them. However, for this particular session, my thoughts tended towards thinking that any accompaniment, other than that which the melody players were doing themselves, was perhaps a bit superfluous.
At the risk of doing myself out of a job, I'd be very interested to hear specifically from melody players and, especially from any "top" Irish melody players (i.e. Irish musicians, playing Irish music all their lives), who might not normally be bothered with much of the nonsense on this site (I'm NOT criticising this site, just some of the threads - I do get quite a lot of enjoyment from the session.org). What might your thoughts be on this matter?
# Posted on July 26th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I would also like to add, that I often wonder about the suitability of the guitar to accompany Irish traditional music, and feel that the bouzouki family of instruments is probably better, if it's to be accompanied at all that is......
# Posted on July 26th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Who ARE you criticizing, then, the NON-"top melody players" on this site? I've known some players from Ireland who have played all their lives who are frankly sh*te (and who often will tell you so themselves), and many who are from places thousands of miles from Ireland who started playing ten years ago who are lovely players respected by people who know the music very well, and who don't match your description of "top" Irish players.
Sorry, I know you're not trying to start controversy, but I am really starting to get seriously sick of this "nonsense" thing.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Anyway...
...you're probably not going to get too many replies from anyone, since you've asked for only "top" Irish melody players. If you really want answers, why not open it up to the non-"top" Irish players. We've plenty of people here who qualify as knowledgeable musos who love and respect this stuff.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I love having a guitarist play with us Farewell to Ireland, it lifts the tune right off if well played. Bouzouki is also great. I think it pads out some of the instruments. I've played fiddle with just another banjo player or two and we all missed having someone smooth out the sound with a guitar.
Same with the bodhran, you can have just a whistle and bodhran, or fiddle and bodhran, great on jigs.
But to be honest Ron, this has come up a few times before. However, since it seems hard work to check through all the old thread, some themes are going to come up with newer members. A bit like someone turning up late for a session and starting a set that's been played already
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Cath
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
As a Top Irish musician, albeit not really Irish, except by dint of me stepfather, whose family is around Cork, or was, more likely, as he's passed on now, and although I haven't been playing the music ALL my life, due to an extended period of dabbling with the pharmaceuticals, if you must put it that way, and rarely achieving the level of competence that might put meself in the same bracket as an actual MUSICIAN, though I have played in some storming sessions, I'd like to help you on this matter of the chordal accomplishments to the music. If only I could put a finger on the point I was trying to make.
It was on the tip of my tongue only the moment ago.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Really quite simple - I've been playing tunes for the better part od 30 years and I just LOVE it when John Boy plays the zouk alomg with me - sheer heaven!!!!!!!
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by breandan
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Well Paddy of "The Chieftains" had a slew of Nashville's finest guitarists on both of the "Plank Road" CDs and the DVD. If he is fine with the strummers then I am sure it is ok.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by bobgordon
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Hi Zina, if you re-read my post, you'll see that it IS an open invitation to all melody players to comment, but I'm particularly interested in what any "top" Irish players might have to say - is there any harm in asking that question? I'm also not trying to criticize (or insult anyone).
Hi Cath, thanks for your amusing comparision to my late arrival at a session.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron, sorry to have misread your post -- however, my point still stands: a "top" Irish melody player may not be from Ireland, may have not played this stuff all their lives, and, if they don't bother with the "nonsense" on this site, they probably won't post to this thread either. (Although I'd love to see some of the lurkers I know are out there comment, so c'mon, you know who you are, go ahead and prove me wrong, I TRIPLE dog dare you. Don't make me name the names. *smirk*)
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
OK Zina, I concede your point re my definition of "top" Irish melody players, and I am aware of many non-Irish "top" musicians playing Irish music in other countries as well as in Ireland, who are highly respected by Irish musicians playing Irish music in Ireland. However, personally, I'm especially interested in what Irish musicians playing Irish music in Ireland think, AS WELL AS what other people think. What's the harm there? It's just a question, after all.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Well, Ron, before I let it go (and I promise I'll let it go after this), the harm is that it's a bit of snobbery, and a bit impossible as well -- I mean, who's going to admit to being a "top" Irish muso? Besides Bodhran Bliss, of course. Oh, and Mark, as per above, although I suspect he was actually being sarcastic.
Anyway, I was once told, while I was in Ireland, by an Irish citizen who plays Irish music and has for most of his life (he started at 4, so I suppose that's close enough), and who would be deemed at least "well known" by most, that he felt that the real innovations in Irish traditional music were happening outside of Ireland, "apart from these ridiculous hybrids of different kinds of music and Irish traditional music, of course", he said.
I don't know that I actually agree with that (certainly there's plenty of hybrids happening outside of the Irish environs), but that was his opinion. At least at that time on that day of that week in that month of that year. He may have changed his mind by now.
BTW, I'd like to see someone walk up to some tough in a bar and ask the question, "so, how long have you been a child molester/drunkard/insert something insulting here"! I mean, what's the harm, it's only a question, yes? LOL
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Jesus, I can't believe people are still on this whole not born in Ireland thing. Has anyone ever heard of Steve Cooney, Liz Carroll or Mike McGoldrick?!!! They are all 'foreign' in theory. I was born in Ireland but I couldn't possibly consider myself to be in the same class as these guys or indeed many of the wonderful musicians I encounter on a weekly basis in London. I know a few people with absolutely no Irish ancestry who can play ITM better than most of you guys can dream about. So please for Gods sake stop classing being born in Ireland as the ultimate classification for being a genuine Irish traditional musician. I play in a few regular seisiúns in London and there is a guy there who has been playing for longer than most of us have lived, and he's German! Still most of us give him the respect he deserves, he is an Irish traditional musician and very bloody good at it too. So Ron P I know you didn't mean to cause controversy, but please next time remember that being Irish is not an essential qualification for being a 'top' traditional Irish musician.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by The Tune Composer
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
To add to this, if you didn't feel adequate enough to accompany these musicians, that just means that you haven't learnt enough. Any good accompanist can hear where a tune player is going with a tune, presuming it is a tune they know. Every accompanist has to busk at times, but the best ones can even anticipate where the melody player is going in a tune they don't know. So in conclusion, if you found yourself feeling that you weren't needed in the seisiún, chances are you weren't because you aren't good enough. Sorry to sound so harsh, but I've been in the same boat myself and learnt from it. Most good melody players love a good backer, occasionally you'll come across the odd eejit who would tell Steve Cooney, Arty McGlynn and Donal Lunny to collectively feck off and let him play unnaccompanied! But you shouldn't worry about them, as I said, it sounds like you need to do some more homework. If both the fiddle player and accordionist were doing some harmony at the same time, that means it is a standard harmony for their style of playing. You also need to realise that tunes are played VERY differently in different regions, so a West Clare musician will play a tune completely differently to an East Clare musician, different feel, accompaniment style etc, so you need to study these things to get this chip off your shoulder. Believe me I understand where you are coming from, it is a harsh lesson I learnt myself. Thought I was the greatest guitarist in the world until I sat in with some seasoned Clare musicians a few years ago, then I realised I'd a lot more to learn, and always will, I still come unstuck at times with certain players, but it is a learning process so you've got to learn to deal with it. Think you need to learn this too, if you do you will become a great accompanist who will be respected by every decent tune player out there.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by The Tune Composer
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron P don't mess with Zina, that's our pit bull and she stays outside. She's been maltreated and taunted [by us] so [that] she can be vicious, especially in fights. She'll clamp onto you and never let go, so you have to use the breaking stick technique. Chuck her a biscuit and you should be okay.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Here are some pics of Zina when we let her in the house a couple of years back. Zina I love that white stripe on your nose - you're so cute! http://groups.msn.com/AAAmericanPitBullTerriers/newpicsofzina.msnw
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
If its any indication of suitability of guitar accompaniment, many of the top fiddler's use guitar accompaniment almost exclusively. Not sure if the suitability is unique to fiddle playing. Sure there are tunes that don't need guitar, but for a whole heck of a lot of them, it just really gives the tune uber drive. Think of how many albums Tommy People's has done with just guitar accompaniment be it Paul Brady, Alph Duggan etc. Also you have Liz Carroll and John Doyle and Martin Hayes and Denis Cahill. Then there's Steve Cooney who's played with so many greats. The list goes on. I was just in Ireland for 4 weeks and all the top sessions used guitar accompaniment. The ones in Doolin were perhaps the most impressive. FWIW, I actually didn't see a zouk the entire trip but that may be a freak accident (I was going to about 3 sessions a week). As a fiddle and guitar player, I know I really love the way the timbre of the guitar and fiddle jive with each other. If you're still having doubts about guitar accompaniment, give the Molloy, Brady, Peoples album another listen. Paul Brady plays a real "raw" style of accompaniment on the album which is so cool.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by glennP
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
LOL -- you're such an idiot, Mark. A real picture of me would reveal that I'm overfed and too lazy to hang on for very long. But I'll take on the charge of being a bitch.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
another great thing about that Molloy Brady Peoples Album is the fact that they tune to Eb a lot which corresponds to another discussion. But I agree, Paul Brady was a great traditional musician, such a shame he ended up writing sh*tty MOR songs with the likes of Ronan Bloody Keating!
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by The Tune Composer
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Dow, it's the teeth behind the cuteness that the pictures missed out on.
Oops as a guitarist I wasn't supposed to comment on this thread - apologies.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Donough
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Yes, but you just couldn't stand not to get in a chance to slag me, could you, Donough!? I may be able to forgive you in time... *smirk*
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I"m only "Top Irish" melodist, by dint of both me Granny's insistance and am bigger than most and can wrestle the contenders down ;->
I wasn't gonna say this, but
A) the music is perfectly complete, accompaiment is often welcome but not needed.
B) if you feel like a second class citizen, start learning the tunes, then you can be an arrogant melodist....like ME!!!!
Sarah McQuiad ( in her DADGAD book) points out that "You can't play the tune if you don't know it." & Chris Smith "coyotebanjo" pretty well expects you to play the melody as well in his excellent accompaniment book (don't remember the title). SO why don't you start learning tunes instead of just starting at yr navel. Then you can lord it over the other string-bashers.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
P.S> Should be "staring" at yr navel. Maybe "Startled at yr navel" either way yr self image depends on it.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Frankly, I can't stand anyone accompanying my melody playing. It's because they are usually in rhythm, which I'm not. Also, when I stop for 1-2 seconds to inhale and find the proper embochure again, they continue with playing, which is absolutely incompetent. After all, it's the melody instrument they should be following.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Janek
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I think boxorox hit it on the head with "accompaniment is often welcome but not needed."
It's a shame the thread has drifted, cause I'd say "Well done, Ron" for being so aware on this. Specifically, the dangers of accompaniment when players are throwing double stops and drones around. This is such a marvelous effect that I would say if the accompanist is aware that they are in a session where this is being done frequently and to good effect, they would show great sensitivity by backing off of even sitting out. I am particularly aware of this because it is a style of fiddling that I love listening to and something which I do in my box playing a lot.
As for frisbee's comment that "if you don't feel adequate to accompany these musicians that just means you haven't learnt enough." I would say the fact that Ron is thinking about not playing all the time under every circumstance shows he has learnt a helluva lot - and his openness sets him up to learn much more. And supposing he eventually learns how to accompany the style he describes satisfactorily, he may still have the sense to ask whether it is an improvement on the unaccompanied.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by kris
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Just a grammatical point, Ron,
contemplation is navel gazing
whereas naval gazing would be looking at boats
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron, I don't think you can be too surprised with the response you got form Zina. You hardly expected to sign off you post with a hint that what people write hear is nonsense, and then just get replies from the "top" players that maybe lurking.
Anyway, to answer your question, I think there should be no
accompnaiment if the melody players don't want it, but obviously so many do that is if by top you mean Kevin Burke,
Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy etc.
But if a melody pleyer doesn't want accompaniment, then fair play.
(on the Paul Brady thing, he still appears on albums accompanying ITM eg the recent Ciaran Tourish album and
more so these days plays his old songs, despite the recent contemporary albums which aren't that bad if you exclude RK)
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by BegF
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Playing with good backers is a joy. Always.
Snorre
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by snorre
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Should have added that it is not always appropriate to accompany as some people have since pointed out. Some seisiúns work very well and nicely without a backer, others really benefit from the extra lift a good backer can give. It is probably always best to either ask politely if you can join or just sit and listen. 9 out of 10 times a good accompanist will be welcomed. 10 out of 10 times a bad accompanist will not be welcomed! To add to the comment about not knowing the tune. Almost every backer I know or have seen who is at a high or professional has developed an ability to accompany most tunes even ones they don't know. They hear the key first then listen out for the changes. There are some mad tunes which are almost impossible to follow like this, but most tunes can be backed very well using this method of listening while playing. I'm sure melody players realise this happens, because it is almost impossible for any backer to know every tune they've ever backed in a seisiún. Some melody players almost insist that you accompany every tune they play, even one's they've just written themselves. So I tend to disagree with the 'If you don't know the tune don't play it' policy as a whole, I would only agree with it in certain situations, but certainly agree with it when applied to backers who don't have good enough ears for this (probably about 90% of them).
It is always good to know the tastes of individual players, so there is no harm in asking what kind of accompanists they like, this will usually give you an idea what to do. If they say, 'I don't like any accompanists' you're better off leaving them alone and finding another seisiún. There is no reason for you to sit in shame with your head down, if you feel uncomfortable playing with certain people.Just either ask them what kind of accompaniment they like or get the hell out of there. And Ron I'm sorry if I came across a bit strict or rude in my previous posts, as others have said, realising that it is not always appropriate to accompany is one of the best things an accompanist can do. People are often more impressed with an accompanist who knows when not to play as apposed to one who just plays manically over everything with tons of 'interesting' chords.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by The Tune Composer
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
It's clear that Ron P doesn't know what he's talking about. But to his credit, and I'm kind of defending him here, he has an inkling that he knows he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's started to accept that he may not be needed, which means he is at least listening. Well done Ron, you have your first foot on the long and winding yellow brick road to the emerald city.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by ...
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Two things that are clear from the above 2 posts:
1 Neither frisbee nor michael have heard RonP playing.
2 -It's very easy to come to totally wrong conclusions from discussion posts on the Internet.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Kenny
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Well the tune is king, so all that is “needed” is one melody player, but that doesn’t make for much of a session.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by BegF
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I guess that backers will always have problems when moving from session to session, because of the things that Ron is talking about. At his "home" or regular session his playing might be one of the things that keeps the other players coming back for more, wheras at another session the melodists may play in a manner that doesn't suit backing, or they may simply just not like backing at all. (oh, when I say "backing", I really mean "chordal playing", but its too much of a pain to type and also sounds a bit silly).
But I think it's a bit redundant to say that Irish music SHOULD or SHOULD NOT have backing. It can sound great. It can also sound horrible. But that's true of all of our playing isn't it? You may as well have a discussion called "Should ITM have Plinkey?"..........but I fear I know what the answer to that would be.......
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
yes, that's the point really. Every player is an individual, ragardless of the instrument. Some people gell, some people don't. And it has nothing to do with whether you scrape, toot or strum
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by ...
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Thanks Kenny, I appear to have stirred up yet another hornets nest. I guess I shouldn't have used the word "top".
I certainly won't back down on my nonsense comment on some of the content in session threads however - as with life in general, there might be a lot of it about - that's not to say that a lot of the nonsense isn't good fun, as it can be!
Regarding "Irish musicians playing Irish traditional music", I still don't see any harm in asking that question, as that's the home of "ITM". I certainly wouldn't take offence if someone asked the same regarding Scottish traditional music.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I like accompaniment a lot. I've even gotten so into the tune with accompaniment that I forget I'm playing the melody and mess the whole thing up. That said, too much of anything will kill ya. So all in moderation.
By the way, I do think that accompaniment is a learned process with each individual a 'backer' will paly with. For traditional and highly improvised music, I'd say it's pretty darn near impossible to do a stellar job until you get to know the melody players style more intimately. That takes time.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by tulloch
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Michael, can I call my debut album "Scrape, Toot and Strum"?
It might be a good few years before it gets recorded, but at least it'll have a catchy title.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
The home of ITM??? Ooooh you really are treading on thin ice here
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by ...
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Yes, everyone knows Cuba is the home of Irish traditional Music !
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by BegF
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
A few of us had a session at a secret location last Sunday. No names mentioned, just some good (and me!)players of melody instruments, plenty of not-so-commonly played tunes, no newbies, no percussion, no backers.
Unbeatable.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron, you used the I word.
Erm, wait a minute... Ron you used the I abbreviation. No, that still sounds crap. I know it's an old chestnut but why is the word "abbreviation" so bloody long?
Anyway, the correct phrase is "Ireland is the home of Irish Traditional Music", as any fule kno
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here yet as I've skimmed some of the posts. The "top" melody players as opposed to the "better" or "best" may not always be the same people. It's all subjective, anyway, but there will be(and are) many relatively unknown musicians playing in sessions throughout the world who are equally as good and, in many cases, arguably much better than a lot of famous "top" names.
I'd also suggest that those players who concentrate on session activities may take a different view than "top" players(whatever these are) who are more used to playing gigs and dabbling in elaborate arrangements. That's not to say, of course, that these players would necessarily have different views about what should happen when they are in a session situation. They would probably, in most cases, accept and conform to what was going on at the particular time' i.e. they'd leave the day job behind.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Michael, like it or not, that's where that genre mainly developed. Scotland is the home of Scottish traditional music, likewise Cape Breton Island the home of that genre etc, etc. These different genres may well be played (very well) in other parts of the globe, but Ireland is still the original home of "ITM".
Now might we get back to my original question - please!
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Hi Conán, apologies for using the dreaded "I word" - you're quite right to point that the correct phrase is "Ireland is the home of Irish Traditional Music".
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I thought about not adding to this thread, but decided to chime in to say that I am thoroughly sick and tired of discussing this topic, and I bet many others are as well. Being both a backer and melody player, I keep looking into these threads, just like I can't tear my eyes away from a car wreck on the side of the road. Or like I was rivetted to the TV last night, when Matt Clement, the Red Sox pitcher, was hit in the head with a ball so hard it looked like he was dead (I hear he will be OK, fortunately). In order to heal, you sometimes have to refrain from picking at scabs. Maybe we should give it a rest.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron,
I don't think you can simplify things quite as easily as that. The music has also developed as Irish people emigrated and travelled overseas to find work. So, you have a strong Irish-American, London Irish scene and so on. So, many of the tunes and syles didn't originate from Ireland itself, though that's obviously where the roots of the music came from. Nowadays, it seems to be universal and is played all over the world by people of many nationalities. The cosmopolitan style played in many sessions in cities throughout the world will obviously differ from local Sligo, Donegal styles etc but it is still Irish music.
Also, by your argument, Scotland could also claim to be the home of Cape Breton music as much of their repertoire consists of old Scottish tunes which the early immigrants brought with them. Also, many well known Irish tunes are originally Scottish and vice versa.
As an exile of Inverness who has now lived in a few different places, I think "Home" is where you happen to be at the time. The same criteria can apply to various genres of music.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
So Ireland isn't the home of Irish Traditional Music? I suppose England isn't the home of the English language then?
Catch yourself on!
Ireland is where it comes from, that's it's home.
C
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
One of the reasons you are getting some flipant remarks here is that we really have done this to death in the past few weeks.
But to briefly reiterate:
Music is music. It can't be owned, it is not property, therefor it can't belong.
And:
The tone of the question is asking for an answere yes or no. And we all know that life just ain't that simple
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by ...
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Hi John J, fair argument - Cape Breton Island was a bad example. The reason I asked my original question, and requested feedback especially from Irish players, is because I go over a few times each year - I generally don't play that much Irish Traditional Music in Scotland - and just wanted opinions from players of the music in Ireland. It might be simpler to ask people next time I'm across, than post a relatively straightforward question on this forum!
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
But Ireland IS the home of Irish music. That's why it's called, er, Irish Music. It may be played all over the world by people with no other connection to Ireland. But it's from IRELAND. As music, it belongs to no-one, fair enough, but it's plain daft to disagree with the simple phrase "The home of irish Music is Ireland" It really IS that simple.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron, as I understand your original post, you were at a session where you were unsure what your playing was contributing to the music as a whole. That to me says two things.
1) You were listening closley enough to the music to be concerned about this in the first place. That should tell you that you are the best judge of your own question. Trust your own judgement over that of any of us fools on here. Some sessions will benefit enormously from your playing, and in others you will find it difficult to add anything of value. That doesn't mean that backing in session music is good or bad in itself, it just demonstrates that different sessions are different animals with different needs, different strengths and weaknesses. It also doesn't pass judgement about your abilities. Listen to the session and you will know yourself whether to play, and how to play.
2) This is not specific to strummers. I play melody on a mandolin, and were I playing in a session where my playing wasn't adding anything to the music as a whole, I'd stop playing, and rightly so. So for the question "Should ITM be accompanied", you could just as easily add "by obtrusive and unwieldy fiddle melodists", as you could "by obtrusive and unwieldy strummers".
Hope this makes sense. I'm feeling sleepy after lunch.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Sorry Ron - I've gone off at a tangent. Hijack ended.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
So you should be. Anyway, Scotland is the home of Irish music. Didn't you know that, Conán?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
This isistance on nationality really is starting to get my goat.
English language? Just think about that. It's latin based. And it's the most widespread language in the world. It migrates with people it evolves, it borrows, it transforms, it upsets. And just where about in England does it come from? Do people who live in the soutern half of the town Berwick upon Tweed own it, and those half a mile away merely borrow it? Has Cornwall always been in England. Did William 1st speak Fremch? Christ I hate thes glib generalisations
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by ...
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
It's not all from Ireland either, Conan. As I've already suggested, many of tunes were imported from elsewhere or composed by Irish and non Irish people outwith Ireland. Some tunes e.g. Calliope House, McArthur Road were written by a Geordie(Dave Richardson) and adopted into the Irish(and other) session scenes.
Yes, I agree that the genre originated in Ireland but that's not the same thing as being its home.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I have my own brand of music called "Plinkeys No 12 Coniston Avenue Olde Tyme Hollerin' music", (although I prefer the abbreviation PNCAOTHM) and not one of you lot can play it properly becasue you don't come from round here.
The sessions are pretty lonely though.....
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Saying it’s the home of the music is different form claiming ownership
Michael – you know that.
Scotland is the home of golf, Scotland doesn’t own golf
The Delta is the home of blues, doesn’t own it.
Ireland is the home of me, it doesn’t own me.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by BegF
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I think I might take Al Brown's advice in future and drive past the wreck by the roadside without looking (although it was me who crashed the car this time) - I'm signing off from this thread - it's just gone too far off track.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Michael there’s a quote from another thread a while back where you say that it once was Irish
but not anymore – was that a glib generalisation ?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by BegF
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Thank you BegF. At least somebody understands my point.
Geez, if we were to take this "non-nationality" thing to it's extreme, maybe we shouldn't call it Irish music.
Yup, we're all off to the pub to play "music-whose-style-and- content-comes-largely-from-the-island-known-to-the-Romans-as-Hibernia-but-which-is-now-played-worldwide-and-has-borrowed-melodies-from-similar-cultures".
Don't think so.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
ha ha . it ain't called Irish music, it's called diddley music. And yup, round here we all say, "we're off for a diddle." And yes, I sometimes gemerise too.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by ...
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I’m glad this ended nicely, I’m sick of all the fighting lately
Probably a result of all the nonsense from Zina.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by BegF
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Actually, Cape Breton is the home of Scottish traditional music as well as the Scottish language and Scottish traditional dance, as any self-respecting Scottish musician, linguist or dancer will tell you.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Also, I think you shot yourself in the foot with that "top" business - no Irish native worth listening to would be caught dead responding to a call like that, as they'd get a royal p*sstaking for defining themselves as such.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron P, if ever you have this problem of double stops and bass notes again, just ignore it. Melody players rarely have a clue about harmony and chords. What you have to do is simply play louder and force them to conform to your harmony. You're the backer providing the rhythm and harmony for them so that they sound good. They should bloody well respect that.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Be careful, Dow. There's many a backer I've met who would take you at at your word here.
Ooh no, I can't believe you just said that!!!!
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Re the origins of Irish music, if we want to go to extremes we could say Irish music should be called African music because that is where everything is supposed to have started! If you listen to some Malian Kora music you might even believe what I said there is true
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by The Tune Composer
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
No but yeah but there is an element of truth in what I'm saying, even though I said it in jest. There's been a few time when I've been playing with an accordionist or whatever and they've been pumping out this 3 chord bass which bears no sensible harmonic relationship to the actual tune, and I've managed to find some cool chords, and they clash with the accordion bass, and I just want to shout, DUDE, SHUT THE C'UP AND PLAY THE TUNE YOUR CHORDS ARE sh*t.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
There was a programme on TV a bit back about how the early Gospel music of the southern United States sounds uncannily like early Gaelic singing. They were saying how one might have developed out of the other. Sadly I didn't see it myself, but Mrs. Plinky was most impressed. Apparently they got some gospel singers and gaelic singers together and they had a bit of a singing session that really brought out the similarities.
So music can travel in mysterious ways, no?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
"Sadly I didn't see it myself"
That means I didn't see the programme, not that I didn't see the similiarities.
Phew. I sure am glad of that clairification.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron, just re-reading your initial post there. There are certain melody players who sound like they've been playing together for years, and perhaps they have. I think that no matter how good an accompanist you are, it's very difficult to walk in "cold" to those types of sessions and fit right in.
I would imagine that at your local session you are probably more "in tune" with those musicians so I wouldn't worry about it.
Michael, that's where you and I differ. I never generalise. Ever.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Actually, Ron, I think it's only fair that someone who slams other threads and contributors for nonsense had his thread devolve into nonsense... ;)
Not that it was all nonsense. Basically, you have your answers: for some people, yes, always accompaniment, for others, it depends upon the players involved and perhaps even the situation, although you never got the "no never" that I'm sure is out there as well.
As for Conan's thing -- well, I'd agree that Ireland is the home of Irish trad music. But that doesn't mean that everyone lives at home with the 'rents, nor that everyone who still lives at home is somehow better than those who moved out.
Oh, and poo to you, Fin! *smirk*
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
P.s.
Just remember, we ALL know that ALL generalizations are ALL wrong, ALWAYS.
Besides which, who are you to talk, Conan? You live in London.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
P.p.s.
Oh, and here's my two cents: the better the player, the less they need accompaniment to make the music sound good -- I'd listen to the best players unaccompanied all day long and never miss the backing. The less experienced the player, the more they need the accompaniment to make the stuff enjoyable to listen to.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I know I live in London! Doesn't change my opinion. Harumph!
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Until next week? ;)
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Touché
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Must be the weather. Or maybe it's post festival blues with you guys. Tempers fraying all round. I'm only here to get away from neuromuscular junctions for a few minutes and have a cupasoup. Oh well, finished now.... back to the grind....
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Cup-a-soup, now there's a thing. Have you ever had a bowl of cup-a-soup?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Actually, Danny, you should know by now that my temper's always like this. :-p
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Can you have a bowl of cupasoup? People actually put it into a bowl?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ron P's summation and query, and Frisbee's initial response, are both right on target. Accompanying instruments, in the right hands, can really push music onto a higher level. However, because ITM is melody-based and often played in modes that standard chords and progressions don't always fit easily, chordal accompaniment is not absolutely essential nor appropriate under all circumstances. That's a hard thing for accompanists to understand and accept, but it's true. This music predates chordal instruments, going back all the way to unaccompanied voice.
So, Ron's uneasiness at the session is a sensitive response to a tricky situation. Do you whip out your guitar and start wanging away under these circumstances? I wouldn't, or at least I'd wait for an appropriate opening. I've been in intimate, melody-rich sessions that were ruined by inappropriate or even clumsy accompaniment. I know professional ITM musicians who are now recording w/o accompaniment just because they don't want the tune to be transmogrified into something completely different. So, good form sometimes means not opening up your guitar or 'zouk case at all. When that happens, relax, have another pint, and enjoy the music. Great music is rare.
And the top players know who they are, but the vast majority of them have enough class not to bray about it.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I think Zina's point above is a good one about the better the player, the less they need strummers. This has nothing to do, of course, with "wanting" strummers, or rather, wanting your favourite strummer.
Someone said above that "we all missed having someone smooth out the sound with a guitar." What they really meant was "we all missed having the wall of sound to hide behind."
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by ...
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
sad but true
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Speaking for myself there
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
'Tis true, Mr. Gill. I've been the 'engine' at local sessions on guitar, driving the tempo or trying not to let it get out of the barn. Nothing wrong with that--it can be great fun, and when non-expert melody players have a solid foundation to stand on, they often respond vigorously.
However, when I sit down with really fine players, those who do it every other night and often for a living, "name" players, well, it's very clear that *they* don't really need me. They're happy to have me there, but it's a world of difference, and it's quite sobering. At that point, it's the craic that counts, and not the ego of some amateur guitarist who gets to hang with the big boys and girls.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Hi folks, I'm afraid some of the unpleasantness in this thread has scunnered me, and I won't be so inclined to submit a discussion in future. However, thanks to those who took my question at face value and gave a straight answer.
I must add that I don't understand how anyone can say that Ireland's not the home of Irish Traditional Music - I ask you!!!!!
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Can I say Cape Breton is the home of Scottish music still? I can argue this point very convincingly, when pressed...
I'd have given you a straight answer, Ron, but I didn't feel qualified. Honestly. I decided to hang out in the peanut gallery let all those top irish musicians who don't normally post here have the floor.
I terribly sorry it didn't work out the way you hoped.
For the record, if I had to choose either a great guitar alongsider or a great piper / accordion / flute / banjo player to come over for a few tunes, I'd likely choose the melodist unless the guitar player was unusually handsome. I guess that indicates an inclination to unaccompanied tunes, although I still love good guitar playing.
Many if not most of the Irish people who've been playing all their lives that I've met seem to have the same leanings, but what with their conspicuous absence from session.org forums who can say for sure?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
As the main author of the unpleasantness, I can tell you that I DID take your question at face value -- I objected to it.
Why is that so hard for you to understand, Ron?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Minutae
Well, actually, I didn't object to the question itself, I objected to the rider on it.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Minutae
And, Michael Gill, the above-mentioned point is one that has been impressed upon ME -- the guy who leads one of the sessions I attend regularly often plays without accompaniment, and I can listen to him all day long, just him. But if it's just me, I'd better damn well have the backer, because my feel and pulse isn't near good enough to stand alone.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Myth expolding: some famous musicians do not have accompaniment on their recordings because they want it. They are either "encouraged" by the record label or feel pressure in other ways. I know for certain that one musician mentioned above recorded an album and only after it was released did he find out there was accompaniment.
Playing with another person changes the way that you play.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Jode
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Oooh, I'm just burning with curiosity Jode. I'm betting on Tommy Peoples' "High Part of the Road..." (with no data whatsoever to back it up.)
But you're not going to tell us, are you?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by grego
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I'm not a "top" Irish melody player, so I've stayed out (plus I'm a bit tired of this one right now), but:
What Jode just said, in spades.
KFG
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by KFG
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I lead our session, and without "backers" it wouldn't be very good.
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
"There was a programme on TV a bit back about how the early Gospel music of the southern United States sounds uncannily like early Gaelic singing."
Plinkey, would that early gospel music be Sacred Harp? Might there be an archived recording somewhere? My wife's family has been part of that tradition for many generations and we'd love to hear or read about the program.
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Bob, I didn't see the show myself, so all I can tell you is that it was on the UK's Channel 4 network, and it was called "The Gospel Truth". I did a bit of Googling and from what I can gather the main man behind this theory is a chap from Alabama called Professor Willie Ruff.
I don't really know much more than that, but have a look at at
http://www.rense.com/general41/dehb.htm as it might help you get a springboard for some research. Good luck, and let me know what you conclude!
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Myth holds up under pressure: A certain top melody player I'm friends with started his own label to have complete creative control, not to get out from under the pressure (if there was any in the first place) of hiring 'name' accompanists. He's happy to play with an accompanist, but prefers someone who is restrained and tasteful, rather than a rock star.
He's also quite insistent on playing tunes at relaxed tempos, which is of course another tempest in a teapot.
FWIW, Kentucky is not the home of Bluegrass.
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
JODE !!!!
C'mon, ya can;t leaving ot hanging in the air like that !
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by BegF
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Revenge of the Myth:
The assertion was not that all recording artists have backing forced upon them, but that the number of recordings with backing is not indicative of the numbers of melody players who find it desirable.
And it is a tautology to note that those players who desire backing don't have it forced upon them.
KFG
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by KFG
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I remember this thread not so long ago with the same twits saying the same things.
Why do they appoint themselves as spokes people?
Cracks me up.
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Finally, the feedback of a genuine Top Irish Musician!
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Irrelevance of myth: The issue of unwanted, superfluous, or other accompanists is true of more styles of music than just ITM. Jazz, pop, R&B, and other musicians and singers routinely have their material 'sweetened' in the studio, some against their will, in order to broaden or target public consumption. With the digital technology available in modern studios, and after 75 years of selling records, producers can do virtually anything to create a more marketable product, and they know what different segments of the public wants, and what sounds they are attracted to and why. You're complaining about how unfair the music biz is? That's not news, my friend.
But you're very right about how playing with other people can change the way you play, although that doesn't hold quite as true with more experienced players. Wtth them, it's more of a choice than an involuntary reaction.
Are you like this in person, KFG?
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
"You're complaining about how unfair the music biz is? "
No. In fact, I'm not complaining about anything at all. I am agreeing with, and defending, Jode's argument, which did not include any concept of fairness.
As far as I can tell, you seem to be agreeing with it as well.
"Are you like this in person, KFG?"
In person I don't communicate with strangers by tacking a typed note up in the village square and going back hours later to see if anybody left a note in response.
KFG
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by KFG
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Ireland is the home of ITM, just as England is the home of soccer. It's just that they are not very good at it, and ITM is still scorned in large parts of Ireland, it's considered to be old Ireland rather than the trendy "Celtic Tiger". Hence so many derogatory mentions of "Diddley-dee" by those who want to feel "superior" and modern.
# Posted on July 28th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
“I’m afraid that some of the unpleasantness has scunnered (???) me, and I won’t be so inclined to submit a discussion in the future” –Ron P
...wow that ryhmes
Ron...Don't be put off....post again , again and again. Nobody owns this site (except, possibly, for Jeremy) and you may say what you wish ....I think most people read your question and take your actual question seriously, knowing you use your words loosely…as do I…I take it as all for semantics sake, hypothetical…to be taken with a grain of salt. I don’t have a reply to your intial question, but I'm sure enjoying the discussion!
Oh yah…and generalizations about a generalization is a generalization, so it too can’t be true
# Posted on July 29th 2005 by Pete D
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
plus...we don't know what you look like, so we can't beat the crap out of you for you obtrusively bold statements...should we see you.
# Posted on July 29th 2005 by Pete D
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Was that me being a twit there? Sorry.
On that first point, I was just saying that you shouldn't take certain recordings by an artist with the initals TP as hard evidence on the side of "yes it should". By having a recording with accompaniment, one is not making the statement that this music should ALWAYS be accompanied.
The second point was left vague for a purpose. Recordings aside, I feel that if a musician, however famous or skilled, will change the way they play a tune when they play with someone else. Sometimes this is a good thing, sometimes it is a bad thing, and sometimes it is simply just a different thing.
I love to hear unaccompanied tunes. I also love to hear tunes with great accompaniment.
Not being a "top" musician directly from Ireland, this is only one twit's opinion.
# Posted on July 29th 2005 by Jode
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
BegF, Grego...to avoid being quoted directly, I found corroborating evidence:
http://www.irishmusicreview.com/tpeoples.htm
# Posted on July 29th 2005 by Jode
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Thanks Jode. Now I can get some rest.
# Posted on July 29th 2005 by grego
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Hey, anything for a fellow Stockton's Wing and Who fan.
# Posted on July 30th 2005 by Jode
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
Thanks Jode, I would have been surprised if it was High Part of the Road.
# Posted on July 30th 2005 by BegF
Thanks
Thanks to all of you who e-mailed me with words of encouragement - it's very much appreciated. However, I think I'm likely to become a "lurker" for now, though may occasionally post information (rather than discussion topics) of potential interest to others on this website.
Again, thanks to those who posted interesting comments on the subject of this thread.
Jode, your recent comments seem spot on regarding my own personal opinions and the accompaniment of Irish Traditional Music, especially ".... I feel that if a musician, however famous or skilled, will change the way they play a tune when they play with someone else. Sometimes this is a good thing, sometimes it is a bad thing, and sometimes it is simply just a different thing".
# Posted on July 30th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Should "ITM" be accompanied?
I recently heard the following comments made about the idea of accompaniment, or backing of ITM, and since I totally agreed with it, will try to convey the spirit of the sentiment if not the precise statements:
The dialogue between the musicians is dependent on all participants having equal status, relevant to the music, and depends also on the notion that everyone can hear and understand the dialogue, even when it approaches the edge of impossibility (or going over the edge). The synergy that makes the whole process exciting is the knowledge that you and your mates are elevating the musical form to its highest level, and edging even further, and you are alive and immersed in it.
What happens with "backing" is a bit different, although it could be the same if the "backer" doesn't feel like an accompanist.
WB
# Posted on July 31st 2005 by wvwhistler