I've just joined the ranks of those who have a flute AND a squeezebox (I think there are a couple on this site!). The Hohner Double Ray B/C box I bid for on ebay arrived today. The photos on the site were very poor, and it looked blue, but I convinced myself that it must really be red, as I've only ever seen red ones(!)
It turned out to be black. Is that unusual? It's an old one, made in Germany, with red and gold logos...
Any info would be appreciated.
Ok, this is my first post on here.. but if its a Black Double Ray, then it is old indeed; the black dot (as it is sometimes affectionately known) has been red at least since the early 1970s maybe even longer. The vintage Hohners have their place as along with the Paolos they were the B/C boxes that were available in the 40-60s but since they were generally inferior to the Paolos you see alot fewer vintage ones showing up at sessions. Still its not a bad starter box at all; I got started on my Dad's old one.
Well, for me it's very much a starter box(!) I've never, ever seen one of these black ones before. It is perfectly in tune, and the bellows are clean and airtight, so it will certainly do. It's a wonderful, liberating feeling to have an instrument that is so alien that every step forward feels like a major triumph (Iborrowed a friends box for a couple of weeks a short while ago). It's like learning to ski - half the fun is in falling over!
Here's wishing you all the very best with your new toy, Mark. I have to say I tried the B/C system - the Black Dot, as Bill says, having borrowed one from a friend, but found it impossible. 2 reasons:
1. already inculcated into the evil ways of the D/G system
2. never really spent enough time on it - because it was borrowed, I suppose.
No doubt you will find the time to get it sorted. No better instrument.
A double ray isn't neccesarily a black dot double ray.
I have an old black dot from the 50s i'd say that I started on,
it's red,and now in snobby Eb. I had an uncle who has a double ray,which aint a black dot,and has a 12 bass system from the 50s or 60s not sure though. He's dead now. I wonder would my aunt part with it? double ray just means 2 row and probably goes without saying. The black dot has a rough black button(usually outside Bb,B which sometimes gets replaced) which must have been some sort of fashion statement,as if aqueerdions were ever fashionable.....
This one is a black dot one, with the rough black button, and 12 basses. I'm going to do something to stop the buttons going in quite so far, as they have a very 'sloppy action', if that's the right expression (they depress right into the finger board), but apart from that it seems in perfect nick.
John Brosnan replaces the keyboard on Hohners,but you're probably a squillion miles away from killarney...
mine has a felted about an inch wide board going across the leverboard to stop the levers going up so far,as you will find that the keyboard has to be broken off,or if u can undo the glue......
Thanks for that. I'm not quite a squillion miles from Killarney, but it's not exactly local(!). I've got a lady coming round tomorrow whose already managed to customise her box (ooh - er missus!) - she has a hohner pokerwork b/c, and she's going to have a prod around at mine - so much fun should be had by all....
Caveat: it is hard to give advice without seeing an instrument. As you can see by the comments above, even names that are familiar, like "double ray," have been put on several different models of instrument over the years so you might not have what I think you do -- and then often these have been modified by their owners with things glued that shouldn't be, etc. So take this with a grain of salt and if possible take the box down to the best (or the best local) accordion expert for most reliable advice. YMMV etc.
12 basses is unusual (8 is the norm) for a double ray but I have seen them like that. Lucky you -- this will give you the option of putting in some useful extra basses and chords.
If you have a standard 2 voice size Hohner double ray body (same size as an Erica), and if the keyboard is one of the most common type used after WW2 (first wooden ones then plastic ones) you should NOT have to break it off to block the action (or to send the keyboard off to be replaced with a tweaked one or a custom replacement).
You can get inside the accordion by pulling out the 4 bellows (escutcheon) pins for the treble side. These are near where the bellows meet the casework; there are usually 2 in front and 2 in back for the treble side, and another 4 similarly positioned for the bass side. Keep the box squeezed together when pulling or replacing these 4 pins -- maybe with a friend's help -- so you compress the bellows frame gasket. Once the box is open, I would expect you will see two screws that run from the inside of the soundboard near the treble reedblocks into the keyboard. On the wooden keyboards of early double rays these are long woodscrews and on the more recent plastic keyboards they are machine screws. If you remove these, the keyboard should come off over the buttons.
You can try to insert felt, cork, etc. into the keyboard under the button positions, but this can make it hard to get the keyboard back on again. Alternatively you can use a wood, metal, leather, or felt blocking up near the pivot point of the levers to reduce their travel. You may want to block the levers for the inside row to a different degree than for the outside row.
I have seen replacement wooden keyboards for these made by Mr. Brosnan or others in Ireland, on boxes brought back to the US, and they are great! I hope someday I will have a chance to go over and meet some of the craftsman who have been keeping accordions alive (and improving them) in Ireland. You can also get a thumb groove and different button spacing (if you want that) with this approach.
Short of an aftermarket replacement keyboard, my favorite approach is to mill out the back of the original Hohner keyboard so that a removable padded plate can be screwed on. A good craftsman can do this really slickly, especially with the older wooden Hohner keyboards. Then the padding can be adjusted just so, and by removing the padded plate it is easy to get the keyboard on and off the accordion body without fouling the buttons or levers. I think Benedict Koehler or Eamonn Flynn were the first guys I saw doing this, and a machinist friend and I do it also now.
Have fun with the box. There is something special about the light weight, the way these balance, and the way you can control the pressure on the reeds of this model. Whether they are tuned wet or dry (or my favorite, in between) I think they sound great too.
Ottery,
Good to hear that you are getting someone with experience to work on your new box--my advice is never to open up an accordion without adult supervision--fortunately the one I mucked up was a cheap one.
After years of playing whistle and harmonica, when I got an accordion, I found it a pleasure not to get winded while I play, but also found that especially early on, you have to think a lot about "air management" or getting that bellows to do the breathing properly.
When I was a beginner, I envied the folks with those black dots, that odd colored button helps you navigate in the early days before your fingers learn to find their way around without having to be looked at.
Enjoy!
Thanks Al.
It is now all disassembled on Eve's kitchen table(scary!) - apparently the inside all looks in good condition.
I'm really pleased, I was a bit nervous about buying something sight-unseen on ebay.
Strangely enough, the black dot isn't much help, as once I'visually located the button to start on, I find it easier to negotiate the keyboard without looking at it - looking slows me down (From tortoise speed to snail speed at the moment) as it introduces another level of things to think about. Maybe this is the legacy of being a flute player(?)
Mark
Coming from playing the flute, the air button seemed pretty natural right off the bat. Maybe I didn't notice learning how to use it, but it didn't even seem weird to "breathe" in both directions. Which is not to say that I don't run out of air once in a while...
If bc_boxplayer were here, he'd tell you not to look at the keyboard at all while you're playing. This is sound advice, as tested by me, although a little difficult to put into practice while you're still learning the notes.
I'm at the stage where use of the air button is like getting a quick gulp of air in extremis, than a natural breathing type thing, but it is getting better.
As a flute player, the thing that is is a real 'treat' is not having to continually adjust the tuning ...
Gzeg,
I do not have to worry much about "hair management" any more, unfortunately.
Many tunes didn't need much conscious work on the bellows as the "ins" equal the "outs." Since I have played the harmonica for many years, the bellows thing was not a totally alien concept--and it is nice to be able to play quick tunes without hyperventilating and seeing occasional visions as the world swirls around me (who needs free pints--just play mouth harp, the proverbial natural high).
I have taken to playing accordion in a dark room to discourage my beginner habit of watching my fingers....
And Mark, I do agree, it is nice to be the standard to which the other instruments must tune....
If anyone has any idea how old it is, please tell me. It's a B/C, stamped "H/C" on the edge of the buttonboard. Oh, and I bought mine sight unseen, sound unheard on eBay. When I opened it up there was stamp inside "Serviced by Ralston Accordions, Darlington 1991".
The H/C is just German for B/C.
I can't follow your link as it asks for a password. (Not that I'd be any use in identifying it for you anyway!)
Does it play ok? Why do you you think it's one of the oldest made?
Just a comment on the use of the air button. The B/C probably uses the Air Button more than the C#/D since the B/C is generally not played in the native key of the instrument (BTW, hopefully your basses are set up for playing in D G and A and not the key of B like most of the old Hohners).
That being said, there seems to be two ways of using air. One is the quick air gulp that one person mentioned and it is the way that you most often see new players use the air button. The other method is to use the air slightly to help smooth things out a bit. You might have plenty of movementments left in the bellows but be outside of the area that is most comfortable for you so you give it a little air when you are playing a run of notes in the direction you want to go.
I've never seen one like that before. It looks very much like the Pokerwork one in shape and the grill....
But like I said, I know more about flutes than boxes.
Buttons and Blows
Buttons and Blows
I've just joined the ranks of those who have a flute AND a squeezebox (I think there are a couple on this site!). The Hohner Double Ray B/C box I bid for on ebay arrived today. The photos on the site were very poor, and it looked blue, but I convinced myself that it must really be red, as I've only ever seen red ones(!)
It turned out to be black. Is that unusual? It's an old one, made in Germany, with red and gold logos...
Any info would be appreciated.
# Posted on July 22nd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
Ok, this is my first post on here.. but if its a Black Double Ray, then it is old indeed; the black dot (as it is sometimes affectionately known) has been red at least since the early 1970s maybe even longer. The vintage Hohners have their place as along with the Paolos they were the B/C boxes that were available in the 40-60s but since they were generally inferior to the Paolos you see alot fewer vintage ones showing up at sessions. Still its not a bad starter box at all; I got started on my Dad's old one.
# Posted on July 22nd 2005 by bill_mchale
Re: Buttons and Blows
Well, for me it's very much a starter box(!) I've never, ever seen one of these black ones before. It is perfectly in tune, and the bellows are clean and airtight, so it will certainly do. It's a wonderful, liberating feeling to have an instrument that is so alien that every step forward feels like a major triumph (Iborrowed a friends box for a couple of weeks a short while ago). It's like learning to ski - half the fun is in falling over!
# Posted on July 22nd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
I wan to join those ranks I already got the Flute part.
# Posted on July 23rd 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Buttons and Blows
Here's wishing you all the very best with your new toy, Mark. I have to say I tried the B/C system - the Black Dot, as Bill says, having borrowed one from a friend, but found it impossible. 2 reasons:
1. already inculcated into the evil ways of the D/G system
2. never really spent enough time on it - because it was borrowed, I suppose.
No doubt you will find the time to get it sorted. No better instrument.
# Posted on July 23rd 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Buttons and Blows
A double ray isn't neccesarily a black dot double ray.
I have an old black dot from the 50s i'd say that I started on,
it's red,and now in snobby Eb. I had an uncle who has a double ray,which aint a black dot,and has a 12 bass system from the 50s or 60s not sure though. He's dead now. I wonder would my aunt part with it? double ray just means 2 row and probably goes without saying. The black dot has a rough black button(usually outside Bb,B which sometimes gets replaced) which must have been some sort of fashion statement,as if aqueerdions were ever fashionable.....
# Posted on July 23rd 2005 by P.browne
Re: Buttons and Blows
This one is a black dot one, with the rough black button, and 12 basses. I'm going to do something to stop the buttons going in quite so far, as they have a very 'sloppy action', if that's the right expression (they depress right into the finger board), but apart from that it seems in perfect nick.
# Posted on July 23rd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
John Brosnan replaces the keyboard on Hohners,but you're probably a squillion miles away from killarney...
mine has a felted about an inch wide board going across the leverboard to stop the levers going up so far,as you will find that the keyboard has to be broken off,or if u can undo the glue......
# Posted on July 23rd 2005 by P.browne
Re: Buttons and Blows
Thanks for that. I'm not quite a squillion miles from Killarney, but it's not exactly local(!). I've got a lady coming round tomorrow whose already managed to customise her box (ooh - er missus!) - she has a hohner pokerwork b/c, and she's going to have a prod around at mine - so much fun should be had by all....
# Posted on July 23rd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
Hi Ottery,
Have to chime in here.
Caveat: it is hard to give advice without seeing an instrument. As you can see by the comments above, even names that are familiar, like "double ray," have been put on several different models of instrument over the years so you might not have what I think you do -- and then often these have been modified by their owners with things glued that shouldn't be, etc. So take this with a grain of salt and if possible take the box down to the best (or the best local) accordion expert for most reliable advice. YMMV etc.
12 basses is unusual (8 is the norm) for a double ray but I have seen them like that. Lucky you -- this will give you the option of putting in some useful extra basses and chords.
If you have a standard 2 voice size Hohner double ray body (same size as an Erica), and if the keyboard is one of the most common type used after WW2 (first wooden ones then plastic ones) you should NOT have to break it off to block the action (or to send the keyboard off to be replaced with a tweaked one or a custom replacement).
You can get inside the accordion by pulling out the 4 bellows (escutcheon) pins for the treble side. These are near where the bellows meet the casework; there are usually 2 in front and 2 in back for the treble side, and another 4 similarly positioned for the bass side. Keep the box squeezed together when pulling or replacing these 4 pins -- maybe with a friend's help -- so you compress the bellows frame gasket. Once the box is open, I would expect you will see two screws that run from the inside of the soundboard near the treble reedblocks into the keyboard. On the wooden keyboards of early double rays these are long woodscrews and on the more recent plastic keyboards they are machine screws. If you remove these, the keyboard should come off over the buttons.
You can try to insert felt, cork, etc. into the keyboard under the button positions, but this can make it hard to get the keyboard back on again. Alternatively you can use a wood, metal, leather, or felt blocking up near the pivot point of the levers to reduce their travel. You may want to block the levers for the inside row to a different degree than for the outside row.
I have seen replacement wooden keyboards for these made by Mr. Brosnan or others in Ireland, on boxes brought back to the US, and they are great! I hope someday I will have a chance to go over and meet some of the craftsman who have been keeping accordions alive (and improving them) in Ireland. You can also get a thumb groove and different button spacing (if you want that) with this approach.
Short of an aftermarket replacement keyboard, my favorite approach is to mill out the back of the original Hohner keyboard so that a removable padded plate can be screwed on. A good craftsman can do this really slickly, especially with the older wooden Hohner keyboards. Then the padding can be adjusted just so, and by removing the padded plate it is easy to get the keyboard on and off the accordion body without fouling the buttons or levers. I think Benedict Koehler or Eamonn Flynn were the first guys I saw doing this, and a machinist friend and I do it also now.
Have fun with the box. There is something special about the light weight, the way these balance, and the way you can control the pressure on the reeds of this model. Whether they are tuned wet or dry (or my favorite, in between) I think they sound great too.
Paul
# Posted on July 23rd 2005 by Paul Groff
Re: Buttons and Blows
Thanks Paul,
invaluable advice. It has a wooden keyboard. I'll think carefully before deciding what to do with it. It certainly feels like a nice instrument - and the sound is great (and pretty loud!)
If you are interested, you can see it at
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16218&item=7336015617&rd=1
Mark
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
p.s.
I am not 'THEMANWHOWASGOD'
That is my son's moniker!!
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
Ottery,
Good to hear that you are getting someone with experience to work on your new box--my advice is never to open up an accordion without adult supervision--fortunately the one I mucked up was a cheap one.
After years of playing whistle and harmonica, when I got an accordion, I found it a pleasure not to get winded while I play, but also found that especially early on, you have to think a lot about "air management" or getting that bellows to do the breathing properly.
When I was a beginner, I envied the folks with those black dots, that odd colored button helps you navigate in the early days before your fingers learn to find their way around without having to be looked at.
Enjoy!
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Buttons and Blows
Thanks Al.
It is now all disassembled on Eve's kitchen table(scary!) - apparently the inside all looks in good condition.
I'm really pleased, I was a bit nervous about buying something sight-unseen on ebay.
Strangely enough, the black dot isn't much help, as once I'visually located the button to start on, I find it easier to negotiate the keyboard without looking at it - looking slows me down (From tortoise speed to snail speed at the moment) as it introduces another level of things to think about. Maybe this is the legacy of being a flute player(?)
Mark
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
Hair Management?
Coming from playing the flute, the air button seemed pretty natural right off the bat. Maybe I didn't notice learning how to use it, but it didn't even seem weird to "breathe" in both directions. Which is not to say that I don't run out of air once in a while...
If bc_boxplayer were here, he'd tell you not to look at the keyboard at all while you're playing. This is sound advice, as tested by me, although a little difficult to put into practice while you're still learning the notes.
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by Gzeg
Re: Buttons and Blows
I'm at the stage where use of the air button is like getting a quick gulp of air in extremis, than a natural breathing type thing, but it is getting better.
As a flute player, the thing that is is a real 'treat' is not having to continually adjust the tuning ...
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
Gzeg,
I do not have to worry much about "hair management" any more, unfortunately.
Many tunes didn't need much conscious work on the bellows as the "ins" equal the "outs." Since I have played the harmonica for many years, the bellows thing was not a totally alien concept--and it is nice to be able to play quick tunes without hyperventilating and seeing occasional visions as the world swirls around me (who needs free pints--just play mouth harp, the proverbial natural high).
I have taken to playing accordion in a dark room to discourage my beginner habit of watching my fingers....
And Mark, I do agree, it is nice to be the standard to which the other instruments must tune....
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Buttons and Blows
I think I have one of the oldest Black Dot Hohners made:
http://snipurl.com/blackdot
If anyone has any idea how old it is, please tell me. It's a B/C, stamped "H/C" on the edge of the buttonboard. Oh, and I bought mine sight unseen, sound unheard on eBay. When I opened it up there was stamp inside "Serviced by Ralston Accordions, Darlington 1991".
Bob
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by Laughtonb
Re: Buttons and Blows
The H/C is just German for B/C.
I can't follow your link as it asks for a password. (Not that I'd be any use in identifying it for you anyway!)
Does it play ok? Why do you you think it's one of the oldest made?
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
Just a comment on the use of the air button. The B/C probably uses the Air Button more than the C#/D since the B/C is generally not played in the native key of the instrument (BTW, hopefully your basses are set up for playing in D G and A and not the key of B like most of the old Hohners).
That being said, there seems to be two ways of using air. One is the quick air gulp that one person mentioned and it is the way that you most often see new players use the air button. The other method is to use the air slightly to help smooth things out a bit. You might have plenty of movementments left in the bellows but be outside of the area that is most comfortable for you so you give it a little air when you are playing a run of notes in the direction you want to go.
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by bill_mchale
Re: Buttons and Blows
Ottery wrote:
> I can't follow your link as it asks for a password.
Oops, try here instead:
http://homepage.mac.com/bob1/PhotoAlbum8.html
> Does it play ok?
It could use some padding and other improvements, but yes, it basically plays wery well.
> Why do you you think it's one of the oldest made?
The form is the same as the Vienna and Pokerwork models, painted wood with plated metal corners. The bases are in B and C.
Bob
# Posted on July 26th 2005 by Laughtonb
Re: Buttons and Blows
I've never seen one like that before. It looks very much like the Pokerwork one in shape and the grill....
But like I said, I know more about flutes than boxes.
# Posted on July 26th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Buttons and Blows
My Black Dot box is also black. And it has swastikas on it. Really it has. Nice sounding thing, though, despite the fact I can't really play it.
# Posted on July 26th 2005 by SL*
Re: Buttons and Blows
Just looked at Bob's link. Mine's exactly like yours.
Not sure if I remember this correctly but the fella that tuned it for me said it was about 1920's or 1930's.
# Posted on July 26th 2005 by SL*
Re: Buttons and Blows
SL* - That was my best guess as well, damn near 80 years old or older. Did you have yours retuned to a dry sound?
Bob
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by Laughtonb