I went to the fiddle recital this year at the Wilie Clancy Summer School. The most outstanding performers in my opinion were John Carty, Gerry O'Connor, Cíarán O'Maonaigh and Liam O'Connor.
One of the things that impressed me about Liam O'Connor's playing was his use of double and possibly triple stopping during his rendition of the Silver Spire.
Does anyone know of any other traditional players who habitually play three note chords on the fiddle? It seems to be a classical technique, possibly easier to do on "fiddle" rather than "violin" as apparently fiddles tend to have flatter bridges.
On the F# he was probably playing two open strings as well - A and D; for the high G in the third bar of the A part he was dividing it up - that's where the triple stopping came in (I think). Does any of that make any sense? I don't read music.
"On the F# he was probably playing two open strings as well - A and D"
D Major triad.
Flatten the bridge and slacken the bow. Bows used to be made concave (like an archery bow) with fully slack hair tensioned manually with the thumb, allowing full four string chords to be played, then the hair tensioned to allow playing single strings. Bach's solo works were composed specifically to be played with such a bow and full chords. Modern players arpeggiate the chords, but this is not how they were intended to be played.
I read about Baroque bows being slackened for that very purpose. I'd love to hear a recording of one of Bach's works played on authentic instruments. Any recommendations?
Rudolf Göhler, music scholar and virtuoso performer, understood that the disruption of the chords and disturbance of the melodic line caused by the rapid arpegiation necessatated by the modern bow were not necessary. In this recording we have the sonatas and partitas played as Bach would have performed them, with full three and four note chords. The result is a slow, deliberate, full bodied and tranquil sound; at places strongly reminiscent of a small baroque organ. This ARTE NOVA CD is available on order only from the manuracturer. Orders can be placed at:
BULLIT KLASSIEK
Heuvelgalerie 138
5611 DK EINDHOVEN
The Netherlands
Or you can place an order at your local classical music CD dealer.
****
The catalog number is 74321 67501 2
The other day I ran across a used copy on the net for six and a half pounds, but I've lost the site.
Triple stops? maybe. I've never tried it. I use a pretty flat bow, but not quite as flat as Mariachi.
When I first started into ITM, I was told fequently that double-stops are forbidden, but when I asked who to listen to I was told; Coleman, Morrison, Kevin Burke, etc. Of the recording I was able to collect they all use doublestops... not to the extent of Tennessee Drag, or Georgia shuffle, but it's there.
Having learned "Silver SPEAR" off a Fin Furey record, I tend to hit the end tag with double stops. (Bg)2 ge (A^f) ^fe &c. (Hope that makes sense. I'm at work, no soundcard or abc sw.)
Sometimes I'll get the open D as well, but I never thought it worth developing.
There was an older man I used to see Open tune and play "Amazing Grace" with the bow upside down. The stick under the fiddle and the hair across the strings. I would assume the tuning was AEAE, but I couldn't say for sure.
As far as Baroque violin goes, Monica Huggett: would be an obvious choice. I haven't heard her Bach recordings but going on other performances I've heard, I'll bet they're good:
Ed, believe it or not, I've already got that CD set!
I didn't realise she was playing it on a baroque fiddle. I can tell you now though, it is wonderful. Let me know if you, er, want a "lend" of it.
No need to flatten the bridge - just hit the centre string of the three, nearer the fingerboard. Perfect triple stop (but you'll have a job doing it with steel strings, which is sometimes why they flatten the bridge contour....also making alternating double-stops, or 'shuffle' easier).
I had a wonderful time Stefan, one of the better years. Are ye back from the land that time forgot?
Armand, every time I listen back to Liam dedicating his set to his aunt who made the long journey from Ennistimon, it makes me chuckle. The playing is sublime.
Jim, don't you have to change the pitch of all three strings for it to "count" as a triple stop?
Thanks for the references in the Bach/baroque tangent. One of my greatest musical pleasures is finding “new” (previously unheard by me) interpretations of the Bach violin, cello or lute solo works. There’s an entire universe contained in that collection.
Conan - Rachel Podger plays Baroque violin and has recorded two CDs of Bach Sonatas and Partitas that I think are excellent. When I listen to these recordings I hear so much music that its hard to remember that she is playing unaccompanied. The recordings are on Channel Classics. Their website is not working right now, but you can probably find these wherever you get CDs.
I have just had a higher bridge put on my fiddle and the angle of the neck changed. It has a more powerful sound now. I'm still trying to work out if I have made things more difficult for myself. Great classical players can do wondrous stuff with a set up like that so in the end it must be down to technique (which i haven't got . .. yet!)
Some classical soloists like to have a low action (strings close to the fingerboard) because that makes life a lot easier for them when playing high up on the strings, and pressing the strings takes a lot less effort. This, by the way, is an important consideration for the cellists who have thick heavy strings to cope with, compared with the fiddle. My cello has its strings pretty well as close as possible to the fingerboard without causing any buzzes. My new fiddle also has a very low action, and my old one has an action that is only just a little higher.
A low action is quite compatible with a high bridge for power provided the fingerboard is raised up towards the strings. Obviously, this is a job for the luthier. Is this what you have had done, Rob?
Monica Huggett's Bach recording is lovely, yes. She actually rolls the bow over the strings, and because the baroque violin reverberates so long (less tension on the bridge, lower pitch A=415) and fabulous technique, it sounds a lot like 3 or 4 notes at once. I find she lingers on some bass notes more than anyone else I've heard, and this lets you hear when there's a melody in that range, much better than other ways of playing it.
"Deperado/Once Upon a Time in Mexico" :not familiar with that.
Some (not all) Mariachi fiddlers have no discernable arch on the bridge. Apparently in a Guadalajara type horn Band the fiddlers are "alongsiders" and only play chords. (At least that 's what I think he said.) The only Mariachi fiddler I actually know plays in a smaller guitar/guitaron and vocal band. She has a standard classical bridge, I think, but she is the melodist..
Baroque bow: I'd like to try it. I can think of several occaisions where variable tension might be effective.
If you want Monica Hugget's CD, the link above will take you to ArkivMusic.com where it costs $37.49 (£21.74). Try amazon.co.uk - they've got it for £7.99.
It's worth remembering that violins and cellos of the 18th century and earlier had a quite different sound then compared to the same instruments used today.
Those old instruments used gut strings at a lower pitch (somewhere in the region of A415) than today. They also had a flatter neck angle, a wider and shorter fingerboard, and a shorter bass bar (a piece of wood that's glued on the underside of the belly under the bass foot of the bridge and runs more or less parallel to the axis of the instrument), the length of which has a lot to do with the power of the instrument. These things combined to give a lighter and quieter tone than what we are used to today, which would have been eminently suitable for the small room acoustics of the day. It is certain that an old instrument in regular use today will have had a lot done to it to give it the power now required.
A few years ago the cellist Yo-Yo Ma made a CD* of baroque music with Ton Koopman's Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. He used his Stradivari cello, but he had it worked on to take it back closer to the baroque sound that Koopman needed. For insurance reasons he wasn't allowed to modify it back to Stradivarius's original spec, but a baroque bridge spread the strings a little more, the cellist's end-pin was removed, and a baroque bow and gut strings provided, resulting in a quieter instrument than its modern equivalent. The luthier reckoned this gave a close approximation to the sound that Stradivarius would have heard.
Ma then had to learn how to use gut strings to advantage - a warmer and more relaxed sound than metal, using a baroque bow, and getting used to the baroque intonation which predated the wide acceptance of today's equal temperament in which all of the semitones are of the same size. In the baroque temperament Ma was working with only the octaves were exact (as they are today), but the 3rds 5ths and other intervals were certainly not equal temperament.
To get back to the original question about double/triple stopping (or chords) on the fiddle - in particular playing Bach's works as he intended - to get the best results you'll really have to use gut strings (at Baroque pitch), a flatter, wider bridge, and a baroque bow. If you're serious about the matter it might be best to get hold of a modern "baroque" fiddle (they're still being made).
* Yo-Yo Ma's CD is "SImply Baroque" with Ton Koopman and The Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, made in 1999 on the Sony Classical label, SK 60680. The works played include various cello solos from Bach's cantatas, and two cello concertos by Boccherini in their original orchestration.
"The trick is to concentrate on the middle string?" - is correct.
If you strike the strings at the right angle _^^_ , straight on to the middle string, ^^ , and parallel to the underscores __ , the middle string will be pressed down and made in-line with the other two strings, which will sound too.
You really don't need a lot of bow pressure if you make contact at the right angle.
....of course ignore all of the above if you're talking about baroque'd, bent, hooped and / or modified fiddles and bows. I'm talking about a classical fiddle setup, from a soloist's point of view.
Trevor, the action is still low. A friend of mine is a great violinist and he reckons playing Bach really improves technique. He says you can play a lot of it in first position. I leave out a few triple stops for now and just try to get through as much of it as I can. A bit of ITM ornamentation here and there sounds quite good!
Double/triple stopping
Double/triple stopping
I went to the fiddle recital this year at the Wilie Clancy Summer School. The most outstanding performers in my opinion were John Carty, Gerry O'Connor, Cíarán O'Maonaigh and Liam O'Connor.
One of the things that impressed me about Liam O'Connor's playing was his use of double and possibly triple stopping during his rendition of the Silver Spire.
Does anyone know of any other traditional players who habitually play three note chords on the fiddle? It seems to be a classical technique, possibly easier to do on "fiddle" rather than "violin" as apparently fiddles tend to have flatter bridges.
Cheers
Conán
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Double/triple stopping
I'm pretty fond of the odd double/triple stop meeself Conan.
especially in the first phrase of the Silver Spear/Spire.
But then i'm classiclally trained for my sins!
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by jfiddlerh
Re: Double/triple stopping
Was he dividing the chord up?
Otherwise he would be 'sawing the belly out of it' as my old teacher used to say.
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by jfiddlerh
Re: Double/triple stopping
On the F# he was probably playing two open strings as well - A and D; for the high G in the third bar of the A part he was dividing it up - that's where the triple stopping came in (I think). Does any of that make any sense? I don't read music.
Conán
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Double/triple stopping
"On the F# he was probably playing two open strings as well - A and D"
D Major triad.
Flatten the bridge and slacken the bow. Bows used to be made concave (like an archery bow) with fully slack hair tensioned manually with the thumb, allowing full four string chords to be played, then the hair tensioned to allow playing single strings. Bach's solo works were composed specifically to be played with such a bow and full chords. Modern players arpeggiate the chords, but this is not how they were intended to be played.
KFG
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by KFG
Re: Double/triple stopping
I read about Baroque bows being slackened for that very purpose. I'd love to hear a recording of one of Bach's works played on authentic instruments. Any recommendations?
Cheers
Conán
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Double/triple stopping
The only one of which I am aware is this one:
Rudolf Göhler, music scholar and virtuoso performer, understood that the disruption of the chords and disturbance of the melodic line caused by the rapid arpegiation necessatated by the modern bow were not necessary. In this recording we have the sonatas and partitas played as Bach would have performed them, with full three and four note chords. The result is a slow, deliberate, full bodied and tranquil sound; at places strongly reminiscent of a small baroque organ. This ARTE NOVA CD is available on order only from the manuracturer. Orders can be placed at:
BULLIT KLASSIEK
Heuvelgalerie 138
5611 DK EINDHOVEN
The Netherlands
Or you can place an order at your local classical music CD dealer.
****
The catalog number is 74321 67501 2
The other day I ran across a used copy on the net for six and a half pounds, but I've lost the site.
KFG
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by KFG
Re: Double/triple stopping
Triple stops? maybe. I've never tried it. I use a pretty flat bow, but not quite as flat as Mariachi.
When I first started into ITM, I was told fequently that double-stops are forbidden, but when I asked who to listen to I was told; Coleman, Morrison, Kevin Burke, etc. Of the recording I was able to collect they all use doublestops... not to the extent of Tennessee Drag, or Georgia shuffle, but it's there.
Having learned "Silver SPEAR" off a Fin Furey record, I tend to hit the end tag with double stops. (Bg)2 ge (A^f) ^fe &c. (Hope that makes sense. I'm at work, no soundcard or abc sw.)
Sometimes I'll get the open D as well, but I never thought it worth developing.
There was an older man I used to see Open tune and play "Amazing Grace" with the bow upside down. The stick under the fiddle and the hair across the strings. I would assume the tuning was AEAE, but I couldn't say for sure.
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Double/triple stopping
As far as Baroque violin goes, Monica Huggett: would be an obvious choice. I haven't heard her Bach recordings but going on other performances I've heard, I'll bet they're good:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp;jsessionid=BBCC1859ABBB2CEEE636DFFAF3E4461D?album_id=69239
I also heard Kati Debretzeni performing Bach a while back - absolutely superb. And what's more, charming company.
Ed.
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Presumin Ed
Re: Double/triple stopping
Ed, believe it or not, I've already got that CD set!
I didn't realise she was playing it on a baroque fiddle. I can tell you now though, it is wonderful. Let me know if you, er, want a "lend" of it.
C
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Double/triple stopping
No need to flatten the bridge - just hit the centre string of the three, nearer the fingerboard. Perfect triple stop (but you'll have a job doing it with steel strings, which is sometimes why they flatten the bridge contour....also making alternating double-stops, or 'shuffle' easier).
Jim
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Double/triple stopping
I LOVED Liam's version of the Silver Spear. I'm so glad I recorded it. Everytime I listen to it, it always makes me smile. What a fiddler... ::dies::
Cheers and half a stuffy nose,
Armand
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by armandale
Re: Double/triple stopping
hehe...judging from your post here, u enjoyed the Willie Week Conán!
Hope it was good craic for all that were there.
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Double/triple stopping
I had a wonderful time Stefan, one of the better years. Are ye back from the land that time forgot?
Armand, every time I listen back to Liam dedicating his set to his aunt who made the long journey from Ennistimon, it makes me chuckle. The playing is sublime.
Jim, don't you have to change the pitch of all three strings for it to "count" as a triple stop?
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Double/triple stopping
"I use a pretty flat bow, but not quite as flat as Mariachi."
You mean the guy from Desperado/Once Upon a Time in Mexico?
Never knew that about the baroque bow, inneresting.
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by KLR
Re: Double/triple stopping
Thanks for the references in the Bach/baroque tangent. One of my greatest musical pleasures is finding “new” (previously unheard by me) interpretations of the Bach violin, cello or lute solo works. There’s an entire universe contained in that collection.
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Double/triple stopping
Conan, you're absolutely right about the triple stop. What I meant to say was 'perfect 3-note chord' instead of 'perfect triple stop'.
Jim
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Double/triple stopping
Conan - Rachel Podger plays Baroque violin and has recorded two CDs of Bach Sonatas and Partitas that I think are excellent. When I listen to these recordings I hear so much music that its hard to remember that she is playing unaccompanied. The recordings are on Channel Classics. Their website is not working right now, but you can probably find these wherever you get CDs.
# Posted on July 19th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: Double/triple stopping
I have just had a higher bridge put on my fiddle and the angle of the neck changed. It has a more powerful sound now. I'm still trying to work out if I have made things more difficult for myself. Great classical players can do wondrous stuff with a set up like that so in the end it must be down to technique (which i haven't got . .. yet!)
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Fiddle Fancier
Re: Double/triple stopping
Some classical soloists like to have a low action (strings close to the fingerboard) because that makes life a lot easier for them when playing high up on the strings, and pressing the strings takes a lot less effort. This, by the way, is an important consideration for the cellists who have thick heavy strings to cope with, compared with the fiddle. My cello has its strings pretty well as close as possible to the fingerboard without causing any buzzes. My new fiddle also has a very low action, and my old one has an action that is only just a little higher.
A low action is quite compatible with a high bridge for power provided the fingerboard is raised up towards the strings. Obviously, this is a job for the luthier. Is this what you have had done, Rob?
Trevor
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Double/triple stopping
Monica Huggett's Bach recording is lovely, yes. She actually rolls the bow over the strings, and because the baroque violin reverberates so long (less tension on the bridge, lower pitch A=415) and fabulous technique, it sounds a lot like 3 or 4 notes at once. I find she lingers on some bass notes more than anyone else I've heard, and this lets you hear when there's a melody in that range, much better than other ways of playing it.
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by fiddlefingers
Re: Double/triple stopping
I meant to say flat " bridge" rather than bow.
"Deperado/Once Upon a Time in Mexico" :not familiar with that.
Some (not all) Mariachi fiddlers have no discernable arch on the bridge. Apparently in a Guadalajara type horn Band the fiddlers are "alongsiders" and only play chords. (At least that 's what I think he said.) The only Mariachi fiddler I actually know plays in a smaller guitar/guitaron and vocal band. She has a standard classical bridge, I think, but she is the melodist..
Baroque bow: I'd like to try it. I can think of several occaisions where variable tension might be effective.
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Double/triple stopping
If you want Monica Hugget's CD, the link above will take you to ArkivMusic.com where it costs $37.49 (£21.74). Try amazon.co.uk - they've got it for £7.99.
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by bong tree
Re: Double/triple stopping
It's worth remembering that violins and cellos of the 18th century and earlier had a quite different sound then compared to the same instruments used today.
Those old instruments used gut strings at a lower pitch (somewhere in the region of A415) than today. They also had a flatter neck angle, a wider and shorter fingerboard, and a shorter bass bar (a piece of wood that's glued on the underside of the belly under the bass foot of the bridge and runs more or less parallel to the axis of the instrument), the length of which has a lot to do with the power of the instrument. These things combined to give a lighter and quieter tone than what we are used to today, which would have been eminently suitable for the small room acoustics of the day. It is certain that an old instrument in regular use today will have had a lot done to it to give it the power now required.
A few years ago the cellist Yo-Yo Ma made a CD* of baroque music with Ton Koopman's Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. He used his Stradivari cello, but he had it worked on to take it back closer to the baroque sound that Koopman needed. For insurance reasons he wasn't allowed to modify it back to Stradivarius's original spec, but a baroque bridge spread the strings a little more, the cellist's end-pin was removed, and a baroque bow and gut strings provided, resulting in a quieter instrument than its modern equivalent. The luthier reckoned this gave a close approximation to the sound that Stradivarius would have heard.
Ma then had to learn how to use gut strings to advantage - a warmer and more relaxed sound than metal, using a baroque bow, and getting used to the baroque intonation which predated the wide acceptance of today's equal temperament in which all of the semitones are of the same size. In the baroque temperament Ma was working with only the octaves were exact (as they are today), but the 3rds 5ths and other intervals were certainly not equal temperament.
To get back to the original question about double/triple stopping (or chords) on the fiddle - in particular playing Bach's works as he intended - to get the best results you'll really have to use gut strings (at Baroque pitch), a flatter, wider bridge, and a baroque bow. If you're serious about the matter it might be best to get hold of a modern "baroque" fiddle (they're still being made).
* Yo-Yo Ma's CD is "SImply Baroque" with Ton Koopman and The Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, made in 1999 on the Sony Classical label, SK 60680. The works played include various cello solos from Bach's cantatas, and two cello concertos by Boccherini in their original orchestration.
Trevor
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Double/triple stopping
So, things may have changed, in the past few decades. Playing more than 1 note at a time was widely discouraged. Now it's not only done, but admired?
The trick is to concentrate on the middle string?
Baroque cds ,like Napper Tandy, are much more interesting?
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Double/triple stopping
"The trick is to concentrate on the middle string?" - is correct.
If you strike the strings at the right angle _^^_ , straight on to the middle string, ^^ , and parallel to the underscores __ , the middle string will be pressed down and made in-line with the other two strings, which will sound too.
You really don't need a lot of bow pressure if you make contact at the right angle.
Jim
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Double/triple stopping
....of course ignore all of the above if you're talking about baroque'd, bent, hooped and / or modified fiddles and bows. I'm talking about a classical fiddle setup, from a soloist's point of view.
Jim
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Double/triple stopping
Trevor, the action is still low. A friend of mine is a great violinist and he reckons playing Bach really improves technique. He says you can play a lot of it in first position. I leave out a few triple stops for now and just try to get through as much of it as I can. A bit of ITM ornamentation here and there sounds quite good!
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Fiddle Fancier