i was just wondering if anyone out there knew of a way to change a ITM tune to a bluegrass tune, i'm not sure if there even is a "patteren" to follow but was wonderin if maybe someone knows the same tune in each style? (by the way im not abandoning my roots, just interested) thanks
Put another string on your banjo, get an f-scroll on your mandolin, trade in your lowden for a martin D18, give the bodhran player a double bass and play so fast it hurts.
Play it fast and with a straight rhythm. No dotted notes allowed! Play variations on the tune phrases using blues scales. Speed is favored over ornamentation. Forget jigs, slides, polkas. No triple meter except for the occasional waltz (limit of one per session). Play hornpipes as reels (fast and straight). Put a flashy tag at the end of the tune.
It comes from an old joke where a classical violinist wanted to play like Kevin Burke. A brain surgeon told him he could do a simple opperation that would do the trick. During the opperation the doctor slipped and cut something he didn't intend to. When the violinist came out from under sedation afterwards, the doctor asked nervously if he would like to play like Kevin burke. The violinist replied, "Nah, I wanna play bluegrass now."
Jeezus geezers! What kind of bluegrass have you guys been listening to? Has a disbanded chewgrass session descended on your session at the best bit or something?
Anyway, picking (haha!) up on what Bob himself himself says, "Play hornpipes as reels (fast and straight)" - An example : 'Harvest Home' hornpipe becomes 'Cincinnatti Hornpipe' - out goes the bounce and in comes a flat reel - the notes themselves are virtually identical.
"Put a flashy tag at the end of the tune.".. the official technical term for this is "shave and a haircut, two bits".
I've never been to a teetotal Bluegrass session. But I think that very few things are teetotal this side of the Atlantic. The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that aside from the stylistic changes you would have to make, you need to prepare a little 'spontaneous' solo', as unlike Irish (or Old timey) ensemble type sessions, bluegrass sessions are strings of solos, like an instrumental circle of death, albeit with backing. All the ones I've been to, everyone plays the tune together once, then everyone plays quieter and the leader points at, say a mando player, and asks "Do you want some?". He then plays a hyperactive version of the tune, demonstrating his manliness and twiddliness, and then the process is repeated for all the other instrumentalists who 'want one'.
All good fun...
I've arrived from the other direction, starting with Bluegrass before discovering ITM as a musician. It was very difficult to
find a doctor who could un-lobotomize me so I had to do it myself. It was a crude operation. I almost died early on a few times from the stares I received when I opened my 5-string banjo case. But I survived. Occasionally since I have been able to pass myself off as someone who plays ITM without serious defects.
Here are a few more differences between the styles
that should be considered when shifting from ITM to
bluegrass.
1) The backing instruments must be able to do the "chop" in unison. Free-form backing like that found among ITM guitarists is not welcome. This is why many backing instruments can be found at a bluegrass session. When a guitarist arrives at a bluegrass session, if he or she knows the chop, no evil eyes will descend on the new player. This is why a bluegrasser new to ITM sometimes doesn't understand why
multiple backing/strumming instruments are not welcome at an Irish session. (This is kind of interesting in that
bluegrass has free-form melodies and strict rhythm codes,
while ITM has strict melody codes with free-form backing.
Of course this is a sweeping generalization so have at it all you
purists and technicians on either side of the fence.)
2) Good bluegrass sessions have many songs. Singing and vocal harmonizing are some of the best moments in a bluegrass session. The most boring bluegrass sessions are just tune after tune after tune. Once again this is hard to understand for someone entering or leaving the bluegrass world from/to ITM. I have been to many ITM sessions where it
was tunes all night long. I enjoyed it because I love to play no matter what. However, I always notice that no one is
singing. I don't know if anyone else notices the same thing.
One more thing...I've also never been to a teetotal bluegrass session, though I have heard the bluegrass version of the Teetotaler reel many times.
I've heard some interesting crossover Bluegrass/ITM too, on one of those digital radio stations where you never hear the name of the group. It seems to me that the meeting point was a consistent swing, which allowed them to combine the two without too much conflict, and maybe more Jazz-influenced than the average Bluegrass group. They had a killer flute-player, who was able to play bg solos, as well as very nice ITM. Not everyone's cup of tea, but very well played.
Bristol has said it all. I like and play (to some extent) both styles.
I personally find it pleasant to stay up playing until the wee hours without being surrounded by the usual mayhem of alcohol madness.
One aspect of moving from bluegrass to ITM is that the 6/8 time signature appears highly exotic - there is a joke that there are two time signatures in bluegrass 4/4 and the Tennesse Waltz. Bluegrassers find it hard to adjust having spent all their lives developing strict 4/4 timekeeping.
I would recommend anyone with an interest in ITM to listen to some Bluegrass - those guys can really play. It is especially interesting to see what has happened to some of the tunes.
Bristol has characterized it pretty well and Mark the otter is right about solos. Most of the opportunities to play a melody part come in the form of the instrumental break in a song. If you’re a fiddler, you’re generally expected to play lots of double stops in your break.
I wouldn’t stay long at a bluegrass session where there’s no singing or beer. Some BG festivals do prohibit alcohol or at least limit it to the camping area. At least this is true in *The South*, where the BG audience draws heavily from the same population that loves gospel music. It’s a bible-belt thing.
Why the hostility to bluegrass among some ITMers? Because bluegrass melody players think that unvaried, unornamented irish melodies played with flat rhythms and as fast as humanly possible are a good and desirable thing. I call it noise.
And bluegrass backers have no business trying to back ITM, they just make a mess of things - they're too loud, they use the wrong chords, and they overemphasize the backbeat in 4/4 tunes. It gets to be distracting and annoying. It's bad enough when an irish guitar wannabe just sort of flounders around in a session, at least some of them figure out that they're clueless and reconcile themselves to working at it. Bluegrass backers think they already know everything and that good irish style backing is "wimpy" and "emasculated" because it's not driving the ensemble sound. Philistines.
my friend tanya from chicago hates bluegrass. u know all these chops and fings. solo, show off breaks on the mandolin and so on. better 2 play in unison. u know wot i mean.
by the way she was f---ing gorgeous.
Such 'tude dude! Most bluegrassers and old timeys think very highly of the irish and scot styles that are bg roots. BG would not exist otherwise. Maybe start hanging out with more positive people.
Bill Evans was asking about it the other night so we've decided to include as near as we can the "recipe." It's loosely based on a big band device of changing the texture every eight bars.
For lack of a better name, we call this a "window" rhythm section. We've tried to find a better name but this one won`t go away. I really don't like it cause it sounds too much like computers.
Everybody has a bunch of things they can do on their instruments you can l)play rhythm on the down beat, 2) play rhythm on the off beat, 3) play a figure, like boogie woogie, 4) play a figure, like high or low bass runs, 5) play unison lead, 6) play harmony, 7) deaden your strings and play rhythm things, 8) play 4/4 chromatic runs, 9) play straight open chord rhythm, 10) play closed chords, 11) always play just one note like the tonic or 12) you can just lay out.
So every eight bars (a window) you change what you're doing or lay out (less is more). You might have five or six instruments and never more than three playing at the same time. The first window might be just the mandolin, the second window just the banjo, the third, the mandolin doing something different and also adding the guitar.
The next window might be everyone and then for contrast, just the fiddle. If it's a tune you haven`t heard before you might want to listen for a window or two before you dive in. Or you can play something with anything the first time you hear it even if it's one note or just something chromatic. An entrance or exit should sould on purpose and not fading in or out and we are trying to make each window real different from the one before.
Yoa can also lay out two windows (l6 bars) if you need to, to change instruments or leave the stage for some reason like adjust the PA system, sell a t-shirt or kick some body's posterior.
The figure or lick does not have to, be the same through the whole window as lone as it works consistently as window.
It's probably a good idea to lay out every third window anyway to keep it from getting too busy.
Generally, try and build with one, then two, then three instruments and then maybe, all of them and then lay out for pacing
The groove is all important and should never he lost.
Note my caveat was about "events" like concerts and festivals.
The only Bluegrass sessions I've been to were held in music stores... Except the one ITM session in the coffee shop that the Bluegrassers took over and the mgmt pitched us all out.
Things may have loosened up in the past 20 years or so, but if you can get a copy of BIll Monroe's albums, you heard it all already, note for note.
I have never found a crowd of people more sanctimonious than the Bluegrass element. That whole you-pretend-to-be-a-musician-but-you-don't-play-God's-Music-yr-goin'-to-Hell attitude drove me away completely.
Roddy, I'm jesting a bit here. You obviously have forgotten about our old friend TLT. I like listening to a bit of bluegrass too, although I much prefer "old time" American music.
Can I just say I hate this site? I just wrote a long essay, hit post, and then it neglected to post it... An hour down the drain!
Well, to sum it up. I really think ITM and BG are mirror images of each other in many ways. Both have a hardcore element of snobs who brook no diversion from "tradition," won't listen to anything recorded after ____ (insert date here), can't stand "progressive" musicians, etc. No matter what group of musicians you encounter, you will always find this hardcore group who think they have found God's chosen music.
Fortunately, there are some open-minded people on both sides. Bluegrass great Tim O'Brien tours frequently with Kevin Burke, John Williams, Karen Casey, and John Doyle as part of The Crossing.
But, aside from that rare exception, most ITM and BG musicians don't "get" the other side. BGers try to play "Irish-Style" but only end up playing a leprachaun type melody without ornaments. On the other hand, I have seen world renowned Irish musicians (no names now) screw up a tiny bit of improvisation on a vocal tune. They just don't practice that skill!
Anyway, for all you ITM fiddlers out there who despise bluegrass, have you actually listened to any? I recommend listening to Stuart Duncan, Ron Stewart, Michael Cleveland, or Aubrey Haynie. These guys are phenomenal musicians! I really don't understand why any fiddle player would purposely ignore another fiddle-based music...
When there's been no activity from you on the board, you have to sign in again, so if you've been typing for a long time, best to hit ctrl-a and then ctrl-v to select and copy your post in case you have to paste it in again. Sometimes you can actually hit "back" on your browser and get a post to post after signing in, but it's a dicey proposition. Best to play it safe with long posts!
I don't think anyone above said they despised bluegrass, Botox.
I used to listen to quite a lot of bluegrass, but really only like it now as a backing for songs. I find the instrumental stuff superficially exciting, but lacking in emotional resonance (for me). But as a session music it's fun and different (and mostly way beyond my technical ability)
Like JohnJ, I prefer Old Timey music, it seems to be more about the tunes and songs, and less about technical virtuosity for its own sake ......
I've noticed ITM fans mostly ignore or dislike bluegrass, but often like Old Time. I guess it's the dance music element that's common to both. I saw Bruce Molsky play at the Blarney Star in NYC a few years back. He was the only non-ITM guy to perform there and the place was packed! They loved him!
Bluegrass music, though its roots are in dance music, really isn't made for dancing. It's more for sitting and listening to. And, of course, mixing OT and BG musicians is usually like mixing oil and water. They can't stand each other either!
I like OT music too... I just hate to retune my fiddle all the time. And they do tend to go on with one tune for way too long! I like to play sets of tunes, but that's just not in the OT tradition.
One thing you might try lanefest is to pick up a copy of Natalie MacMaster's BluePrint album. I know, a lot of people will throw fits about this suggestion, but I happen to think she did a pretty decent job of crossing over. If anything at least she has the guts to try it. Listening to that might give you some hints of what or what not to do.
In some areas, there’s lots of overlap in the bluegrass and Celtic audiences; bluegrass is just another slightly exotic ethnic style to be imported and enjoyed. In the Confederate States of America (aka the Old South), not so much. Some, but not a lot. There used to be a great acoustic/trad venue in Atlanta called The Moonshadow, where I first saw Kevin Burke, Boys of the Lough, De Dannan, Touchstone, etc. It was basically a very large pub with a stage, so people could eat, drink and smoke if they wanted to. At those shows, I very rarely saw anyone smoking. When I went to a bluegrass show there, virtually every table had two or more people smoking constantly. I came home with a whomping migraine headache. Very different audience.
I’ve listened to a lot of bluegrass at festivals and concerts and I occasionally jam with BG-ers, but I admit to being ambivalent about the bluegrass “scene”. In a lot of the touring bands, there’s just too much concern for image and impact at the expense of the music. For my money, anyway. Obviously, a lot of folks like it that way. It really makes me sad to hear a fine old tune turned into a showcase for machismo.
Most of my bluegrass friends engage the music with an attitude that’s more like old-time than bluegrass. One of them calls it “progressive old-time”. That’s the way I like it.
Mr Otter!!! How can you not be moved by those songs about being buried beneath the willows after being stabbed by your lover for unspecified reasons as your daddy came back to Jesus when mama died? And all in the key of G!!!!
But I did start playing fiddle at a bluegrass jam, and that 'circle of death' allowed me to work through the discomfort of solo playing, not to mention forcing me to think on my feet. And thoses tunes seem so easy now: no pesky ornaments or bowing demands....
I said I liked the songs (especially ones where the lover gets thrown in the river, it reminds me of courting Mrs Ottery), it was the tunes (workouts?) that I said I found a bit cold....
Hmmm, yes, they can be workouts. I shudder everytime the banjo guy starts in on Blackberry Blossoms....
On the other hand, my dear husband's guitar playing has been ratched up a few notches after he quit dabbling in his native bluegrass genre. He has what I call the "John Doyle Sweatin' to the Gigs Workout DVD". He is developing a manly forearm, and has trouble going back to 'boom chicka boom".
All joking aside, I like bluegrass. I think the musicianship is phenomenal, and the demand it makes on musicians deserves respect. From what I understand, Bill Monroe hired some swing jazz musicians for his band and invented the form. It's derivative of Old-Time and seems to be a sort of southern white man's jazz with a down home drawl. Robby B's description (above) could be explaining be-bop with out changing but a few words.
Having a background in jazz having played be-bop period piano for many years, I have a particular fondness for the improvisational characteristics of bluegrass. The closest I've ever seen ITM get to that are the projects Cormac Breatnach is involved in. He's one of the few ITM musicians that understands jazz improvisation and can successfully apply it to ITM. If anyone could successfully convert ITM to bluegrass or jazz – he’d be the one to do it.
I first heard him on a demo tape for a band calling itself, "Maristem" back in 1990, and since then I've heard him on dozens of recordings. Some of you might be familiar with his band, "Deiseal" but he has recorded or contributed to a considerable amount of recordings.
I'm not sure that 'southern white man's jazz with a down home drawl' is a good description, Jack. It has some similarity with jazz as there is a limited amount of extemporisation, but drawl, I don't think so! The operative word in BlueGrass singing is Whine(!) Bluegrass singers traditionally sing at the upper limit of their vocal range, which is why so many records have titles like 'The High And Lonesome Sound'. That's why I like that Steve Earl record with the Del McCoury Band so much - it's just so refreshing to hear someone drawling along to the bluegrass backing!
'southern white man's jazz with a down home drawl', would however, be a better description of Western Swing, I feel!
Nice post Ottery... I agree with you that Western Swing fits Jack's description better.
By the way, I saw Del and the boys in New York last Thurs and let me tell you... Jason Carter is one HELL of a fiddler. Anyone who thinks bluegrass musicians have no taste, tone or timing, should listen to that guy.
So you don't think bluegrass has any jazz elements? Is it not true that Monroe hired jazz musicians? (jazz at the time was swing jazz) Do they not Improvise in a similar way to jazz in that they all play the tune together first and then trade solos? And isn't Western Swing a bluegrass spin-off?
Jack, the jazz element was one of the reasons I began listening to bluegrass. That and the obvious influence of Irish, Scottish and English folk tunes. I found the mix interesting. But I think of Western Swing as a blues-spin off. But I could be wrong....
Sure, Jack, there’s a jazz influence, but I’d say it’s heavily weighted toward the blues corner of jazz.
Actually, I think it’s pretty hard to confidently trace musical influences after the dawn of radio and recording. There was suddenly cross fertilization all over the country and across borders. Maybell Carter picked up some subtle Mexican influence and brought it into early country music. Elvis Presley and Bill Monroe influenced each other. Monroe must have heard plenty of western swing and probably some blues while he was forming his own sound.
I’ve tried several times to explain my own musical influences, only to realize later that I didn’t have it quite right. People have told me they hear influences in my playing or singing that I just don’t recognize (or maybe I just don’t want to).
Regardless of whether a person likes the music or not, nobody can deny that the level of musicianship, instrumental and vocal, required in a serious bluegrass band is very high. It takes some formidable chops to play with the pros. I just wish they’d get past the obsession with speed. I mean, it’s amazing that these guys can play so fast, but once that point has been proven, I don’t need to hear it again. Just play me a good tune with heart and soul.
Yeah, there's definitely a jazz element to bluegrass, in that they improvise (over simpler chords) in the way that jazz musicians do. I think what Ottery meant was that Western swing has more elements of "actual jazz," meaning sophisticated chord progressions, different scales, etc. Monroe did not really hire "jazz musicians." Fiddlers like Kenny Baker and Bobby Hicks played a lot of swing, but were certainly not jazz men in the strict sense.
Sometimes I wonder if the tunes are all that different. *Just* from a melodic form point of view, compare "Man of the House" to the bluegrass "Jerusalem Ridge". I play the first one regularly at the Irish session, and "Jerusalem Ridge" at the bluegrass one. The backings are of course totally different. But the melodic forms? A short sample of the 1st parts of each:
I didn't say there was no jazz influence on bluegrass, Jack. I think that jazz colours all 20th Century American Music, but I think that later bluegrass(Newgrass) used lots more Jazz shading - at the beginning I'd say there was a certain bluesinness about it, but not the swing of the fiddling in Western Swing, say.
Bill Monroe put together the Blue Grass Boys in the very early 40s. As far as the chronology of Western Swing, Bob Will's Doughboys started in '32, I believe.
I just did some research and it appears that Western swing was based on the Big Band swing music of the 20s and 30s. Unlike bluegrass, that was based on Old-Time and not intended for dancing, the Western swing bands could play any of the hits that the Big Bands of the day played, but their instrumentation was different. They would travel around playing for dances like the Big Bands, but only in the West and South West. Evidently, around the same time in the mid-30s, Bill Monroe put together his bluegrass band and eventually hired some of these Western swing musicians. So maybe it's safe to say that Bill Monroe fused Old-Time and Western swing to get bluegrass. This would support the notion that bluegrass has strong jazz elements and influences in it.
Bill Monroe had a band in the mid thirties, The music it played wasn't strictly speaking bluegrass at that point. But that's nitpicking. I never really thought of Bluegrass as being particularly jazzy, probably because I came in when 'Newgrass' was on the the scene, and that was REALLY jazzy. I always thought those slightly jazzy blue notes and slides and so on were more a nod to Frank Hutchinson and Darby and Tarlton and even Charlie Poole, on the white side, and maybe bands like the Dallas String Band (Dallas Rag) and the Georgia Blues men (Barbecue Bob etc) on the Black side. But that is an assumption based on the sound of what Bill Monroe played, and my limited knowledge of North American music, and not any firm research!
Nothing is creepier than an Irish fiddler trying to play bluegrass except a bluegrasser trying to play ITM. I should know, I'm stuck in the middle and sound creepy playing both.
BTW: Mr. Gill's early post claiming that bluegrass is fiddled with every note bowed is exactly 180 degrees off target. Bluegrass uses EXTREMELY long bow, it's old timey that does all the saw strokes and shuffle bows. ITM uses much more in the way of rythmic bowing figures than bluegrass.
KFG: you are exactly right! And you have to be stonefaced and somber while you play. Don't forget the stetson.
Kenny Baker is the king, although Aubrey Haynie and Andy Leftwich are getting there.
( I used to be a big fan) Bill Monroe deliberately created BG as a fusion of "Mountainy music"* w /jazz, blues, cajun, with an awareness of Irish and Scots TM and other popular music . Bob Wills did the same sort of thing with Old TIme, Swing and Mexican. Some claim that Wills was preceded by Milton Brown and his Musical Brownies.
Now you know as much about it as I do. Get thee to google if you have any questions.
Can't Spell Appolatch.... Apalach ....Apple A shun." , so I used the old word
Being a promiscuous sort, I happily play BG and WS as well as OT ,TB, RT, STM and ITM , and a fair bit of Sh ITE on my mando.
Happily I live in a part of the world where I can usually find someone else to play tunes with, in any of these styles or even more happily things that are so blurred that no one who knows their onions could really pinpoint what they were.
I don't think it's fair to characterise BG as being flat out and fast though. The main difference I find with Scottish and Irish tunes is that the other instruments leave a lot of space and you take your solos in turn. It can feel like the tune's slowed down rather than sped up.
Play with an American Southern accent (and sing with one too). Drop the whistles and flutes. Up north here, we tend to play the tunes closer in style to the way they were played across the pond. But down south, and in the mountains especially, things seem to have mutated a bit more. Maybe there was less interaction with the old country or something, and things drifted as time passed by.
And bluegrass has developed its own very unique definition of what its traditional style consists of, so even the same tune takes on a very unique flavor.
boxorox: I'm afraid I'm becoming a pronunciation Nazi. Probably what fuels it is hearing more and more people mispronounce my last name and Mac/Mc names in general.
ITM to Bluegrass
ITM to Bluegrass
i was just wondering if anyone out there knew of a way to change a ITM tune to a bluegrass tune, i'm not sure if there even is a "patteren" to follow but was wonderin if maybe someone knows the same tune in each style? (by the way im not abandoning my roots, just interested) thanks
# Posted on July 4th 2005 by lanefest rec.
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Major Tom to Ground Control
# Posted on July 4th 2005 by breandan
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
*Listen* to them in their different styles.
Red Haired Boy / Little Beggarman
Fairies Dance / Old Molly Hare
# Posted on July 4th 2005 by Emily Horne
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Play it twice as fast. Take out all the decoration. If on the fiddle, bow every note
# Posted on July 4th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Tanya!?
# Posted on July 4th 2005 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Put another string on your banjo, get an f-scroll on your mandolin, trade in your lowden for a martin D18, give the bodhran player a double bass and play so fast it hurts.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Cuso
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Give an Irish trad musician a lobotomy.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Play it fast and with a straight rhythm. No dotted notes allowed! Play variations on the tune phrases using blues scales. Speed is favored over ornamentation. Forget jigs, slides, polkas. No triple meter except for the occasional waltz (limit of one per session). Play hornpipes as reels (fast and straight). Put a flashy tag at the end of the tune.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I like Jack's answer.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Jack, that's a little rough, has someone in bluegrass hurt you?
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Cuso
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
It comes from an old joke where a classical violinist wanted to play like Kevin Burke. A brain surgeon told him he could do a simple opperation that would do the trick. During the opperation the doctor slipped and cut something he didn't intend to. When the violinist came out from under sedation afterwards, the doctor asked nervously if he would like to play like Kevin burke. The violinist replied, "Nah, I wanna play bluegrass now."
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
But why?
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
IMO, Might want to rethink that..... be advised (be very advised)that Bluegrass Events are almost all "Alcohol Free" .
Kinda takes the shine off, don't it?
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Jeezus geezers! What kind of bluegrass have you guys been listening to? Has a disbanded chewgrass session descended on your session at the best bit or something?
Anyway, picking (haha!) up on what Bob himself himself says, "Play hornpipes as reels (fast and straight)" - An example : 'Harvest Home' hornpipe becomes 'Cincinnatti Hornpipe' - out goes the bounce and in comes a flat reel - the notes themselves are virtually identical.
"Put a flashy tag at the end of the tune.".. the official technical term for this is "shave and a haircut, two bits".
Just so you know.
Jim
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I've never been to a teetotal Bluegrass session. But I think that very few things are teetotal this side of the Atlantic. The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that aside from the stylistic changes you would have to make, you need to prepare a little 'spontaneous' solo', as unlike Irish (or Old timey) ensemble type sessions, bluegrass sessions are strings of solos, like an instrumental circle of death, albeit with backing. All the ones I've been to, everyone plays the tune together once, then everyone plays quieter and the leader points at, say a mando player, and asks "Do you want some?". He then plays a hyperactive version of the tune, demonstrating his manliness and twiddliness, and then the process is repeated for all the other instrumentalists who 'want one'.
All good fun...
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I've arrived from the other direction, starting with Bluegrass before discovering ITM as a musician. It was very difficult to
find a doctor who could un-lobotomize me so I had to do it myself. It was a crude operation. I almost died early on a few times from the stares I received when I opened my 5-string banjo case. But I survived. Occasionally since I have been able to pass myself off as someone who plays ITM without serious defects.
Here are a few more differences between the styles
that should be considered when shifting from ITM to
bluegrass.
1) The backing instruments must be able to do the "chop" in unison. Free-form backing like that found among ITM guitarists is not welcome. This is why many backing instruments can be found at a bluegrass session. When a guitarist arrives at a bluegrass session, if he or she knows the chop, no evil eyes will descend on the new player. This is why a bluegrasser new to ITM sometimes doesn't understand why
multiple backing/strumming instruments are not welcome at an Irish session. (This is kind of interesting in that
bluegrass has free-form melodies and strict rhythm codes,
while ITM has strict melody codes with free-form backing.
Of course this is a sweeping generalization so have at it all you
purists and technicians on either side of the fence.)
2) Good bluegrass sessions have many songs. Singing and vocal harmonizing are some of the best moments in a bluegrass session. The most boring bluegrass sessions are just tune after tune after tune. Once again this is hard to understand for someone entering or leaving the bluegrass world from/to ITM. I have been to many ITM sessions where it
was tunes all night long. I enjoyed it because I love to play no matter what. However, I always notice that no one is
singing. I don't know if anyone else notices the same thing.
One more thing...I've also never been to a teetotal bluegrass session, though I have heard the bluegrass version of the Teetotaler reel many times.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by halfwaythere
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Spot on, Bristol.
Jim
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I've heard some interesting crossover Bluegrass/ITM too, on one of those digital radio stations where you never hear the name of the group. It seems to me that the meeting point was a consistent swing, which allowed them to combine the two without too much conflict, and maybe more Jazz-influenced than the average Bluegrass group. They had a killer flute-player, who was able to play bg solos, as well as very nice ITM. Not everyone's cup of tea, but very well played.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Gzeg
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Bristol has said it all. I like and play (to some extent) both styles.
I personally find it pleasant to stay up playing until the wee hours without being surrounded by the usual mayhem of alcohol madness.
One aspect of moving from bluegrass to ITM is that the 6/8 time signature appears highly exotic - there is a joke that there are two time signatures in bluegrass 4/4 and the Tennesse Waltz. Bluegrassers find it hard to adjust having spent all their lives developing strict 4/4 timekeeping.
I would recommend anyone with an interest in ITM to listen to some Bluegrass - those guys can really play. It is especially interesting to see what has happened to some of the tunes.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Cuso
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Bristol has characterized it pretty well and Mark the otter is right about solos. Most of the opportunities to play a melody part come in the form of the instrumental break in a song. If you’re a fiddler, you’re generally expected to play lots of double stops in your break.
I wouldn’t stay long at a bluegrass session where there’s no singing or beer. Some BG festivals do prohibit alcohol or at least limit it to the camping area. At least this is true in *The South*, where the BG audience draws heavily from the same population that loves gospel music. It’s a bible-belt thing.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Why the hostility to bluegrass among some ITMers? Because bluegrass melody players think that unvaried, unornamented irish melodies played with flat rhythms and as fast as humanly possible are a good and desirable thing. I call it noise.
And bluegrass backers have no business trying to back ITM, they just make a mess of things - they're too loud, they use the wrong chords, and they overemphasize the backbeat in 4/4 tunes. It gets to be distracting and annoying. It's bad enough when an irish guitar wannabe just sort of flounders around in a session, at least some of them figure out that they're clueless and reconcile themselves to working at it. Bluegrass backers think they already know everything and that good irish style backing is "wimpy" and "emasculated" because it's not driving the ensemble sound. Philistines.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Hanley
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
my friend tanya from chicago hates bluegrass. u know all these chops and fings. solo, show off breaks on the mandolin and so on. better 2 play in unison. u know wot i mean.
by the way she was f---ing gorgeous.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Such 'tude dude! Most bluegrassers and old timeys think very highly of the irish and scot styles that are bg roots. BG would not exist otherwise. Maybe start hanging out with more positive people.
Anyhow..... I found this interesting>
Snip - http://www.johnhartford.com/discog/speed.htm
Bill Evans was asking about it the other night so we've decided to include as near as we can the "recipe." It's loosely based on a big band device of changing the texture every eight bars.
For lack of a better name, we call this a "window" rhythm section. We've tried to find a better name but this one won`t go away. I really don't like it cause it sounds too much like computers.
Everybody has a bunch of things they can do on their instruments you can l)play rhythm on the down beat, 2) play rhythm on the off beat, 3) play a figure, like boogie woogie, 4) play a figure, like high or low bass runs, 5) play unison lead, 6) play harmony, 7) deaden your strings and play rhythm things, 8) play 4/4 chromatic runs, 9) play straight open chord rhythm, 10) play closed chords, 11) always play just one note like the tonic or 12) you can just lay out.
So every eight bars (a window) you change what you're doing or lay out (less is more). You might have five or six instruments and never more than three playing at the same time. The first window might be just the mandolin, the second window just the banjo, the third, the mandolin doing something different and also adding the guitar.
The next window might be everyone and then for contrast, just the fiddle. If it's a tune you haven`t heard before you might want to listen for a window or two before you dive in. Or you can play something with anything the first time you hear it even if it's one note or just something chromatic. An entrance or exit should sould on purpose and not fading in or out and we are trying to make each window real different from the one before.
Yoa can also lay out two windows (l6 bars) if you need to, to change instruments or leave the stage for some reason like adjust the PA system, sell a t-shirt or kick some body's posterior.
The figure or lick does not have to, be the same through the whole window as lone as it works consistently as window.
It's probably a good idea to lay out every third window anyway to keep it from getting too busy.
Generally, try and build with one, then two, then three instruments and then maybe, all of them and then lay out for pacing
The groove is all important and should never he lost.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Robby B.
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Note my caveat was about "events" like concerts and festivals.
The only Bluegrass sessions I've been to were held in music stores... Except the one ITM session in the coffee shop that the Bluegrassers took over and the mgmt pitched us all out.
Things may have loosened up in the past 20 years or so, but if you can get a copy of BIll Monroe's albums, you heard it all already, note for note.
I have never found a crowd of people more sanctimonious than the Bluegrass element. That whole you-pretend-to-be-a-musician-but-you-don't-play-God's-Music-yr-goin'-to-Hell attitude drove me away completely.
But I see which way the wind Blows
I'll get me coat.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Roddy, I'm jesting a bit here. You obviously have forgotten about our old friend TLT. I like listening to a bit of bluegrass too, although I much prefer "old time" American music.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Can I just say I hate this site? I just wrote a long essay, hit post, and then it neglected to post it... An hour down the drain!
Well, to sum it up. I really think ITM and BG are mirror images of each other in many ways. Both have a hardcore element of snobs who brook no diversion from "tradition," won't listen to anything recorded after ____ (insert date here), can't stand "progressive" musicians, etc. No matter what group of musicians you encounter, you will always find this hardcore group who think they have found God's chosen music.
Fortunately, there are some open-minded people on both sides. Bluegrass great Tim O'Brien tours frequently with Kevin Burke, John Williams, Karen Casey, and John Doyle as part of The Crossing.
But, aside from that rare exception, most ITM and BG musicians don't "get" the other side. BGers try to play "Irish-Style" but only end up playing a leprachaun type melody without ornaments. On the other hand, I have seen world renowned Irish musicians (no names now) screw up a tiny bit of improvisation on a vocal tune. They just don't practice that skill!
Anyway, for all you ITM fiddlers out there who despise bluegrass, have you actually listened to any? I recommend listening to Stuart Duncan, Ron Stewart, Michael Cleveland, or Aubrey Haynie. These guys are phenomenal musicians! I really don't understand why any fiddle player would purposely ignore another fiddle-based music...
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bojax
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
When there's been no activity from you on the board, you have to sign in again, so if you've been typing for a long time, best to hit ctrl-a and then ctrl-v to select and copy your post in case you have to paste it in again. Sometimes you can actually hit "back" on your browser and get a post to post after signing in, but it's a dicey proposition. Best to play it safe with long posts!
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I don't think anyone above said they despised bluegrass, Botox.
I used to listen to quite a lot of bluegrass, but really only like it now as a backing for songs. I find the instrumental stuff superficially exciting, but lacking in emotional resonance (for me). But as a session music it's fun and different (and mostly way beyond my technical ability)
Like JohnJ, I prefer Old Timey music, it seems to be more about the tunes and songs, and less about technical virtuosity for its own sake ......
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Yeah, Old Time is good. A lot of the same tunes, no pressure.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I've noticed ITM fans mostly ignore or dislike bluegrass, but often like Old Time. I guess it's the dance music element that's common to both. I saw Bruce Molsky play at the Blarney Star in NYC a few years back. He was the only non-ITM guy to perform there and the place was packed! They loved him!
Bluegrass music, though its roots are in dance music, really isn't made for dancing. It's more for sitting and listening to. And, of course, mixing OT and BG musicians is usually like mixing oil and water. They can't stand each other either!
I like OT music too... I just hate to retune my fiddle all the time. And they do tend to go on with one tune for way too long! I like to play sets of tunes, but that's just not in the OT tradition.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bojax
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
One thing you might try lanefest is to pick up a copy of Natalie MacMaster's BluePrint album. I know, a lot of people will throw fits about this suggestion, but I happen to think she did a pretty decent job of crossing over. If anything at least she has the guts to try it. Listening to that might give you some hints of what or what not to do.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by tulloch
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
In some areas, there’s lots of overlap in the bluegrass and Celtic audiences; bluegrass is just another slightly exotic ethnic style to be imported and enjoyed. In the Confederate States of America (aka the Old South), not so much. Some, but not a lot. There used to be a great acoustic/trad venue in Atlanta called The Moonshadow, where I first saw Kevin Burke, Boys of the Lough, De Dannan, Touchstone, etc. It was basically a very large pub with a stage, so people could eat, drink and smoke if they wanted to. At those shows, I very rarely saw anyone smoking. When I went to a bluegrass show there, virtually every table had two or more people smoking constantly. I came home with a whomping migraine headache. Very different audience.
I’ve listened to a lot of bluegrass at festivals and concerts and I occasionally jam with BG-ers, but I admit to being ambivalent about the bluegrass “scene”. In a lot of the touring bands, there’s just too much concern for image and impact at the expense of the music. For my money, anyway. Obviously, a lot of folks like it that way. It really makes me sad to hear a fine old tune turned into a showcase for machismo.
Most of my bluegrass friends engage the music with an attitude that’s more like old-time than bluegrass. One of them calls it “progressive old-time”. That’s the way I like it.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
"but lacking in emotional resonance (for me)."
Mr Otter!!! How can you not be moved by those songs about being buried beneath the willows after being stabbed by your lover for unspecified reasons as your daddy came back to Jesus when mama died? And all in the key of G!!!!
But I did start playing fiddle at a bluegrass jam, and that 'circle of death' allowed me to work through the discomfort of solo playing, not to mention forcing me to think on my feet. And thoses tunes seem so easy now: no pesky ornaments or bowing demands....
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Batlady
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I said I liked the songs (especially ones where the lover gets thrown in the river, it reminds me of courting Mrs Ottery), it was the tunes (workouts?) that I said I found a bit cold....
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Hmmm, yes, they can be workouts. I shudder everytime the banjo guy starts in on Blackberry Blossoms....
On the other hand, my dear husband's guitar playing has been ratched up a few notches after he quit dabbling in his native bluegrass genre. He has what I call the "John Doyle Sweatin' to the Gigs Workout DVD". He is developing a manly forearm, and has trouble going back to 'boom chicka boom".
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Batlady
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
All joking aside, I like bluegrass. I think the musicianship is phenomenal, and the demand it makes on musicians deserves respect. From what I understand, Bill Monroe hired some swing jazz musicians for his band and invented the form. It's derivative of Old-Time and seems to be a sort of southern white man's jazz with a down home drawl. Robby B's description (above) could be explaining be-bop with out changing but a few words.
Having a background in jazz having played be-bop period piano for many years, I have a particular fondness for the improvisational characteristics of bluegrass. The closest I've ever seen ITM get to that are the projects Cormac Breatnach is involved in. He's one of the few ITM musicians that understands jazz improvisation and can successfully apply it to ITM. If anyone could successfully convert ITM to bluegrass or jazz – he’d be the one to do it.
I first heard him on a demo tape for a band calling itself, "Maristem" back in 1990, and since then I've heard him on dozens of recordings. Some of you might be familiar with his band, "Deiseal" but he has recorded or contributed to a considerable amount of recordings.
Here's a complete discography if anyone's interested: http://www.cormacbreatnach.com/discographyPrint.asp
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I'm not sure that 'southern white man's jazz with a down home drawl' is a good description, Jack. It has some similarity with jazz as there is a limited amount of extemporisation, but drawl, I don't think so! The operative word in BlueGrass singing is Whine(!) Bluegrass singers traditionally sing at the upper limit of their vocal range, which is why so many records have titles like 'The High And Lonesome Sound'. That's why I like that Steve Earl record with the Del McCoury Band so much - it's just so refreshing to hear someone drawling along to the bluegrass backing!
'southern white man's jazz with a down home drawl', would however, be a better description of Western Swing, I feel!
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Nice post Ottery... I agree with you that Western Swing fits Jack's description better.
By the way, I saw Del and the boys in New York last Thurs and let me tell you... Jason Carter is one HELL of a fiddler. Anyone who thinks bluegrass musicians have no taste, tone or timing, should listen to that guy.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bojax
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
So you don't think bluegrass has any jazz elements? Is it not true that Monroe hired jazz musicians? (jazz at the time was swing jazz) Do they not Improvise in a similar way to jazz in that they all play the tune together first and then trade solos? And isn't Western Swing a bluegrass spin-off?
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Jack, the jazz element was one of the reasons I began listening to bluegrass. That and the obvious influence of Irish, Scottish and English folk tunes. I found the mix interesting. But I think of Western Swing as a blues-spin off. But I could be wrong....
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Batlady
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Sure, Jack, there’s a jazz influence, but I’d say it’s heavily weighted toward the blues corner of jazz.
Actually, I think it’s pretty hard to confidently trace musical influences after the dawn of radio and recording. There was suddenly cross fertilization all over the country and across borders. Maybell Carter picked up some subtle Mexican influence and brought it into early country music. Elvis Presley and Bill Monroe influenced each other. Monroe must have heard plenty of western swing and probably some blues while he was forming his own sound.
I’ve tried several times to explain my own musical influences, only to realize later that I didn’t have it quite right. People have told me they hear influences in my playing or singing that I just don’t recognize (or maybe I just don’t want to).
Regardless of whether a person likes the music or not, nobody can deny that the level of musicianship, instrumental and vocal, required in a serious bluegrass band is very high. It takes some formidable chops to play with the pros. I just wish they’d get past the obsession with speed. I mean, it’s amazing that these guys can play so fast, but once that point has been proven, I don’t need to hear it again. Just play me a good tune with heart and soul.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Hey Jack,
Yeah, there's definitely a jazz element to bluegrass, in that they improvise (over simpler chords) in the way that jazz musicians do. I think what Ottery meant was that Western swing has more elements of "actual jazz," meaning sophisticated chord progressions, different scales, etc. Monroe did not really hire "jazz musicians." Fiddlers like Kenny Baker and Bobby Hicks played a lot of swing, but were certainly not jazz men in the strict sense.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bojax
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Sometimes I wonder if the tunes are all that different. *Just* from a melodic form point of view, compare "Man of the House" to the bluegrass "Jerusalem Ridge". I play the first one regularly at the Irish session, and "Jerusalem Ridge" at the bluegrass one. The backings are of course totally different. But the melodic forms? A short sample of the 1st parts of each:
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/mp3/itm-bluegrass-comp.mp3
What do you think?
Jim
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
So what came first then, bluegrass or Western swing?
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
The egg.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I think it would be fair to say that western swing was a recognizeable style before bluegrass was.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
But I could be wrong. And just because it's fair doesn't mean it's true.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I didn't say there was no jazz influence on bluegrass, Jack. I think that jazz colours all 20th Century American Music, but I think that later bluegrass(Newgrass) used lots more Jazz shading - at the beginning I'd say there was a certain bluesinness about it, but not the swing of the fiddling in Western Swing, say.
Bill Monroe put together the Blue Grass Boys in the very early 40s. As far as the chronology of Western Swing, Bob Will's Doughboys started in '32, I believe.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
I just did some research and it appears that Western swing was based on the Big Band swing music of the 20s and 30s. Unlike bluegrass, that was based on Old-Time and not intended for dancing, the Western swing bands could play any of the hits that the Big Bands of the day played, but their instrumentation was different. They would travel around playing for dances like the Big Bands, but only in the West and South West. Evidently, around the same time in the mid-30s, Bill Monroe put together his bluegrass band and eventually hired some of these Western swing musicians. So maybe it's safe to say that Bill Monroe fused Old-Time and Western swing to get bluegrass. This would support the notion that bluegrass has strong jazz elements and influences in it.
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Bill Monroe had a band in the mid thirties, The music it played wasn't strictly speaking bluegrass at that point. But that's nitpicking. I never really thought of Bluegrass as being particularly jazzy, probably because I came in when 'Newgrass' was on the the scene, and that was REALLY jazzy. I always thought those slightly jazzy blue notes and slides and so on were more a nod to Frank Hutchinson and Darby and Tarlton and even Charlie Poole, on the white side, and maybe bands like the Dallas String Band (Dallas Rag) and the Georgia Blues men (Barbecue Bob etc) on the Black side. But that is an assumption based on the sound of what Bill Monroe played, and my limited knowledge of North American music, and not any firm research!
# Posted on July 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
You must be refering to the Row brothers, Charlieman and Billman.
The brother act had very little jazz in it although Bill did stretch the harmonies a good bit.
# Posted on July 6th 2005 by bt
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
The difference is really quite simple:
With Irish music you come home from work, take off your suit and put on a pair of dungarees to play it.
With Bluegrass you come home from work, take off your dungarees and put on a suit to play it.
KFG
# Posted on July 6th 2005 by KFG
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Nothing is creepier than an Irish fiddler trying to play bluegrass except a bluegrasser trying to play ITM. I should know, I'm stuck in the middle and sound creepy playing both.
BTW: Mr. Gill's early post claiming that bluegrass is fiddled with every note bowed is exactly 180 degrees off target. Bluegrass uses EXTREMELY long bow, it's old timey that does all the saw strokes and shuffle bows. ITM uses much more in the way of rythmic bowing figures than bluegrass.
KFG: you are exactly right! And you have to be stonefaced and somber while you play. Don't forget the stetson.
Kenny Baker is the king, although Aubrey Haynie and Andy Leftwich are getting there.
# Posted on July 6th 2005 by ScottC
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Very good KFG ...
# Posted on July 6th 2005 by Ottery
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
( I used to be a big fan) Bill Monroe deliberately created BG as a fusion of "Mountainy music"* w /jazz, blues, cajun, with an awareness of Irish and Scots TM and other popular music . Bob Wills did the same sort of thing with Old TIme, Swing and Mexican. Some claim that Wills was preceded by Milton Brown and his Musical Brownies.
Now you know as much about it as I do. Get thee to google if you have any questions.
Can't Spell Appolatch.... Apalach ....Apple A shun." , so I used the old word
# Posted on July 6th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Sorry, boxo, but it cranks my ear to hear you pronounce it like that. It's Apple-AT-chun! Named for the Apallachee Indians.
Apple-A-shun means "name".
# Posted on July 6th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
P.S. Harumph!
# Posted on July 6th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Being a promiscuous sort, I happily play BG and WS as well as OT ,TB, RT, STM and ITM , and a fair bit of Sh ITE on my mando.
Happily I live in a part of the world where I can usually find someone else to play tunes with, in any of these styles or even more happily things that are so blurred that no one who knows their onions could really pinpoint what they were.
I don't think it's fair to characterise BG as being flat out and fast though. The main difference I find with Scottish and Irish tunes is that the other instruments leave a lot of space and you take your solos in turn. It can feel like the tune's slowed down rather than sped up.
# Posted on July 6th 2005 by Bren
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
i was just wondering if anyone out there knew of a way to change a ITM tune to a bluegrass tune,
Wait 150 years.
# Posted on July 7th 2005 by fluti31415
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Play with an American Southern accent (and sing with one too). Drop the whistles and flutes. Up north here, we tend to play the tunes closer in style to the way they were played across the pond. But down south, and in the mountains especially, things seem to have mutated a bit more. Maybe there was less interaction with the old country or something, and things drifted as time passed by.
And bluegrass has developed its own very unique definition of what its traditional style consists of, so even the same tune takes on a very unique flavor.
# Posted on July 8th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Bob himself: Kinda' like hearing Trad tunes, on MIDI. I get it
Or people refering to horseback soldiers as "Calvary"
Cain't spell it Cain't say it. I'm beginning to understand the origins of the term "Mountainy"
And frankly I'm APPLEd at my insensitivity. ;->
# Posted on July 10th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
boxorox: I'm afraid I'm becoming a pronunciation Nazi. Probably what fuels it is hearing more and more people mispronounce my last name and Mac/Mc names in general.
# Posted on July 11th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
It's nice to know *somebody* cares. So how do they mispronounce "himself"?
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: ITM to Bluegrass
Ha! Left myself open for that one.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Bob himself