I've just done a bad thing. Ive just bought a fiddle. A cheap one on ebay, which I thought might be OK to learn how to play on. It'll probably arrive in a couple of days....
Why is this a bad thing? Well, I already play guitar and mandolin (not at the same time though), and I think I may now have more instruments than I have talent. But I just couldn't resist, y'know?
So my question to you esteemed chaps and chapesses is this: If you play more than one instrument, how do you decide which instrument to play on which tune? It's a fairly obvious decision with guitar and mando, because I play mandolin on the tunes I know, and bang furiously away as loud as I can on a D guitar chord for the ones I don't (I jest of course). But with two melody instruments, what do you do? If I really take to the fiddle I might end up playing it exclusively, but I'd be interested to hear what approaches other people take.
You'll soon enough find that some tunes just sit better on one instrument than on another - sometimes this is a personal thing and sometimes this is more of a hard fact (slow airs on the banjo - don't fit well generally).
Just keep hacking away. Most of us have more instruments than talent.
never know which instrument to pick up, have guitars setup in diff tunings too which makes the dilema even greater!
sometimes wonder if id be better at say the box, if id just devoted all the time ive spent learning these other instruments soley to the box, but defo the choice is a good thing to have
I learn the tunes on all my instruments, but apart from the flute ,the guitar, banjo and mandolin I tune the same so it's easy to transfer...not very conventional, but I was always a bit naughty...
Why don't you just see "who else is playing what" before you decide which instrument?
Not so much which instrument for which tune, but which will fit in best with the other instruments.
Doesn't necessarily mean you can't double up on the same instrument as someone else playing.
The fiddle is quite a logical step onwards from the mandolin. The fingering is the same, although you have to approach the playing of tunes diffrently at times; ie with the bowing and picking techniques.
Obviously, the fiddle is better for slow airs, waltzes and the like. You have to work much harder to make these sound half interesting on the mandolin. It's probably actually easier than the mandolin for faster tunes too-once you've mastered the bowing. However, I still alternate between the two and their both light enough to carry around. The guitar gets a bit neglected, these days.
And you can always "bash out the tunes you don't know in D" on the mandolin instead. Only joking too.
I play fiddle, harp, and mountain dulcimer. (Although I only bring my fiddle to sessions. I'm not good enough on either of the others to inflict my playing on anyone other than the spouse!) I find that in playing different tunes on different instruments, my ear soon tells me which tunes are better suited to which instrument. Of course, as my skill levels improve I may begin to be able to play more tunes on all three instruments, but I'm not holding my breath.
It's only a bad thing to get another instrument when you're too busy to put enough time into the ones you have. That's why I ended up deciding not to get a mando, even though I want one quite badly. I don't have enough free time to adequately practice more than two of the three I presently own; why add a fourth to gather dust? I'm going to wait until I have the time to play the darned thing before I buy it.
Life is short. Why not learn to play several instruments badly, rather than one well?
I'm a guitarist who tried fiddle, but the fiddle didn't find me. I could probably play it well if I gave up bicycling, sailing, eating, computers, etc., but I decided to try mandolin instead. (I used to play acoustic and electric bass professionally, but gave it up after discovering ITM.) That led to octave mandolin and banjo. I'm still just a guitarist who slums on mando/banjo, but well enough that I'm tolerated at the local sessions. The only problems are carrying the damn things--my banjo is a good one, and the pot must weigh 15 lbs--and finding room to put them in a crowded session. I'm going to be at Swannanoa next week taking guitar, mando, octave, and banjo classes, and I'm wondering how the hell I'm going to schlep all that around w/o looking stupid. Oh, well...
Oh, yes, your question: I took up the mandolin a long time ago in order to understand the structure and phrasing of fiddle tunes better. I also wanted to have a bit more of a melodic voice in sessions. And frankly, I have too much of an ego to be satisfied playing guitar in a session where there's already another guitar or two being played (unless it's played badly). When that happens, I can pull out another instrument and play some tunes w/o contributing to the cacaphony.
I tend to also play certain instruments based on my mood and the mood of the session. An octave mandolin can really change the feel of a session after a couple of hot reel or jig sets, or a banjo can pick things up nicely following a waltz, air, or song. Having several instruments for me is sort of like having a larger palette of colors. Also, if I don't really know the melody but don't want to play guitar, I can play some stuff on the octave that adds to the rythym w/o destroying the melody. But that's another discussion.
Never too many instruments! And talent? What's talent? You can learn! Good luck with that...
And there are others like you: after piano I picked up recorder then whislte then flute then harp . I know how to play a fiddle....it sound awful though...and I've just started voice lessons.
Like Fiddlemouse said, play whatever you want at home. Bring your best instrument to the session. Knowing some tunes on the mando does not make you a fiddle player. Learn the instrument first. Later, you can try to figure out which one to bring to the session.
20 years ago I had a pretty crap fiddle, two or three mandolins, a bazouki, two guitars, a fretless bass, a bowed psaltry, and, heaven forbid, a tenor banjo. I sold the lot and bought a decent fiddle. It's where it's at.
I always like to have one instrument on the go that I'm SO inexperienced at that ANY semblance of a tune coming out of it feels like a miracle. In my pursuit of that initial, heroin-like rush I've worked my way through whistle, flute, guitar, mandolin, fiddle (got housemaids elbowed out of that one), and piano, I never really got that far with any of them once the initial buzz wore off. Now a cruel lady has gone and lent me her b/c box. It's a whole new world of pushing and pulling. I want one!
Oh my god, is that what they cost!
Like Bren said, pick the instrument that fits what others are playing. Our session has alternating leaders, and somewhat different crews on those alternating nights. At the one session, I stick mostly to guitar, since I am the only accompanist who generally shows up. At the other, there is an excellent bouzouki player, so I play my melody instruments as much as I can. Just make sure you know the tune on the instrument you happen to grab!
For me, the only instrument that doesn't cut into another instrument's practice time is my harmonica, which I practice when the highway is less crowded on the long commutes to work.
I think more people should work on more than one instrument. It can keep the session sound fresh, as others have pointed out, and sometimes it can be an inspiriation on your primary instrument., reinvorgorating your playing and sound.
Sometimes you just have to play something. I was happy years ago playing pennywhistle until I heard Mat Moloney in concert. I knew I wouldn't be content unless I could play Irish music on the mandolin, and later the banjo.
If you have to play that sound, you have to play. There's no use being haunted by music or instruments you never played.
Well I play bouzouki and i learnt many tunes on it using the GDAD tuning, when i tried the fiddle it was a big pain in the backside move all my tunes on the high D string a note down so i gave up as you cant really tune a fiddle a string down. Whereas on Mandolin, you can and you just play the exact same stuff which satisfys me, Fiddle's a great instrument but it affects my playing, like when i'm playing a tune on a GDAD tuned mandolin/bouzouki i find myself playing the fiddle version making loads of wrong notes and when playing the fiddle i find myself playing the GDAD part which again, doesn't sound pleasant. It just confuses me and in order to improve alot, i can't afford to make these silly mistakes as they will become bad habits.
I started off playing Guitar, it's completely differant but when i picked up the bouzouki i transfered all my chord knowledge comparing stuff with a bouzouki chord chart, like a D on a guitar is a C on the bouzouki, you remember these things so playing an instrument can help your other one, So in a way it can help your playing. But can also affect it.
I presume it's a matter of which instruments, like if they're related(with the same tuning on the bottom sting :P) then i suppose you can manage and that's great, the more the merrier. But there was an old saying "Jack of all trades, master of none"
I'm adding a low A flute (big sucker) to my stable to keep my whistles & D-flute company. In theory, with a C-natural key I'll be able to play just about any D-flute friendly tune on the bigger one, just by transposing the fingerings around by a 4th. Which is not really that hard to do.
BUt I don't think this transition would be a radical as going from guitar to mando or zouk. More like going from fiddle to viola.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts folks - I agree with the gist of the comments posted here, but I'm not sure my wife would! I told her that I'd bought a fiddle, and I'm sure she's developed a nervous twitch overnight.
I was thinking about my guitar - mando - fiddle progression some more last night when I got home from playing,and it struck me that it perhaps reflects my growing interest/obsession with session music. I started out as being happy enough to provide some rudimentary backing on the guitar, then thought some more and tried to work out a more complimentary method of guitar accompanyment (though I'm not sure how sucessful I've been), THEN became interested in the melodic structure of the tunes (sounds similar to your experience High-Strung), and NOW I want to be able to play tunes on a more expressive instrument (not that the mandolin is a totally unexpressive one, but I hope you'll know what I mean.)
Anyhow, I'll certainly not be taking out in public until I can guarantee not to alarm anyone, and I'll let you know my progress.
P.S. Avery (unseen122): I'll never think I have too many instruments again. Now, does anyone know where I can get a decent theremin?
My main session instrument is the Banjo, 'cos it's nice and loud, but I also play mandolin, mandola, bazouki (GDAE as a melody instrument, as I have long fingers.), bodran and fingerstyle guitar in about 5 tunings. I've also had a doodle on my girlfriends fiddle (ooh-er) and just need to get my head around the bowing.
The guitar I've been playing for most of my life, but only realy do songs and slow instrumentals on it (Martin Simpson and John Fahey being my major influences), The banjo I've been playing since I was 16 (gosh, that's 14 years ago).
Be persistant and bloody minded and it will come. A good memory helps,
As I now play three instruments pretty regularly -- guitar, bouzouki (for melody) and bodhran -- one of the more enjoyable/challenging experiences at sessions has been to encounter a tune I'd previously associated with one specific instrument and see what I can do with one of the other two. This is especially true for the bodhran, which chronologically is my "newest" instrument: I've more or less kicked the habit of thinking to myself, "Oh boy! I love playing this tune! Better put this drum down and pick up the 'zouk!," and instead I try to see the tune through another lens, i.e., as a percussionist.
And yeah, the hauling around of several instruments can be a pain, but I've gotten used to it. Except that, what with carrying a guitar in one hand and a bouzouki in the other, I wonder if my arms will wind up getting stretched a few inches longer -- should come in handy when I swing from tree to tree.
On a non-ITM note, re John Fahey -- I had the unique experience of interviewing him years ago at a live broadcast on my college radio station when he performed on campus. The highlight came when I asked him to talk about the folk scene out on the west coast, and he just looked at me for a few seconds and then said, "Folk scene? There ain't no folk scene out there, man. Everyone just kinda...died." Certainly did enjoy his guitar-playing, though.
I think I've followed a similar musical path to plinkeyplonkey, and I pick up the guitar less and less these days - there was always a melody person trying to get out, and for me the guitar wasn't doing it. I was liberated by the mandolin which I still play a lot (especially in bed! - you can't get a good bowing action when lying down) but the fiddle will obsess me for my remaining time on earth. When your eBay one arrives, don't expect it to sound good straight away - I bought one on there that had a few "issues" but I had it set up by a luthier and it's really nice now. Also don't let the groans and eye-rollings and cries of anguish from family members etc put you off in the early days as you grope around on the E string attempting to hit a B - it does all start to get better, and you really feel a sense of triumph when it starts to sound a bit sweeter. The early months on the fiddle are much more painful than the mandolin, but needless to say worth it in the end.
Too many instruments?
Too many instruments?
I've just done a bad thing. Ive just bought a fiddle. A cheap one on ebay, which I thought might be OK to learn how to play on. It'll probably arrive in a couple of days....
Why is this a bad thing? Well, I already play guitar and mandolin (not at the same time though), and I think I may now have more instruments than I have talent. But I just couldn't resist, y'know?
So my question to you esteemed chaps and chapesses is this: If you play more than one instrument, how do you decide which instrument to play on which tune? It's a fairly obvious decision with guitar and mando, because I play mandolin on the tunes I know, and bang furiously away as loud as I can on a D guitar chord for the ones I don't (I jest of course). But with two melody instruments, what do you do? If I really take to the fiddle I might end up playing it exclusively, but I'd be interested to hear what approaches other people take.
Any thoughts?
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Too many instruments?
You'll soon enough find that some tunes just sit better on one instrument than on another - sometimes this is a personal thing and sometimes this is more of a hard fact (slow airs on the banjo - don't fit well generally).
Just keep hacking away. Most of us have more instruments than talent.
Got to stop in a hurry - my dad's on the phone
Dave
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Too many instruments?
Im a bit like that too
play the box and guitar and bouzouki and piano
never know which instrument to pick up, have guitars setup in diff tunings too which makes the dilema even greater!
sometimes wonder if id be better at say the box, if id just devoted all the time ive spent learning these other instruments soley to the box, but defo the choice is a good thing to have
:D
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Gersfanno1
Re: Too many instruments?
Why don't you learn all the tunes with all the instruments?
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Too many instruments?
I learn the tunes on all my instruments, but apart from the flute ,the guitar, banjo and mandolin I tune the same so it's easy to transfer...not very conventional, but I was always a bit naughty...
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by matildamarmotte
Re: Too many instruments?
PS Tried to do banjo picking on the flute...
It might take me a while to develop my style...
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by matildamarmotte
Re: Too many instruments?
Why don't you just see "who else is playing what" before you decide which instrument?
Not so much which instrument for which tune, but which will fit in best with the other instruments.
Doesn't necessarily mean you can't double up on the same instrument as someone else playing.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Bren
Re: Too many instruments?
The other question is: How do you haul of that stuff around?
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Batlady
Re: Too many instruments?
Very good point Batlady - if I can be bothered bringing my second instrument to a session, I find it a big enough pain in the butt to carry it around.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Ron P
Re: Too many instruments?
The fiddle is quite a logical step onwards from the mandolin. The fingering is the same, although you have to approach the playing of tunes diffrently at times; ie with the bowing and picking techniques.
Obviously, the fiddle is better for slow airs, waltzes and the like. You have to work much harder to make these sound half interesting on the mandolin. It's probably actually easier than the mandolin for faster tunes too-once you've mastered the bowing. However, I still alternate between the two and their both light enough to carry around. The guitar gets a bit neglected, these days.
And you can always "bash out the tunes you don't know in D" on the mandolin instead. Only joking too.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Back for a while
Re: Too many instruments?
What Dave said.
I play fiddle, harp, and mountain dulcimer. (Although I only bring my fiddle to sessions. I'm not good enough on either of the others to inflict my playing on anyone other than the spouse!) I find that in playing different tunes on different instruments, my ear soon tells me which tunes are better suited to which instrument. Of course, as my skill levels improve I may begin to be able to play more tunes on all three instruments, but I'm not holding my breath.
It's only a bad thing to get another instrument when you're too busy to put enough time into the ones you have. That's why I ended up deciding not to get a mando, even though I want one quite badly. I don't have enough free time to adequately practice more than two of the three I presently own; why add a fourth to gather dust? I'm going to wait until I have the time to play the darned thing before I buy it.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by sara g
Re: Too many instruments?
Life is short. Why not learn to play several instruments badly, rather than one well?
I'm a guitarist who tried fiddle, but the fiddle didn't find me. I could probably play it well if I gave up bicycling, sailing, eating, computers, etc., but I decided to try mandolin instead. (I used to play acoustic and electric bass professionally, but gave it up after discovering ITM.) That led to octave mandolin and banjo. I'm still just a guitarist who slums on mando/banjo, but well enough that I'm tolerated at the local sessions. The only problems are carrying the damn things--my banjo is a good one, and the pot must weigh 15 lbs--and finding room to put them in a crowded session. I'm going to be at Swannanoa next week taking guitar, mando, octave, and banjo classes, and I'm wondering how the hell I'm going to schlep all that around w/o looking stupid. Oh, well...
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Too many instruments?
Oh, yes, your question: I took up the mandolin a long time ago in order to understand the structure and phrasing of fiddle tunes better. I also wanted to have a bit more of a melodic voice in sessions. And frankly, I have too much of an ego to be satisfied playing guitar in a session where there's already another guitar or two being played (unless it's played badly). When that happens, I can pull out another instrument and play some tunes w/o contributing to the cacaphony.
I tend to also play certain instruments based on my mood and the mood of the session. An octave mandolin can really change the feel of a session after a couple of hot reel or jig sets, or a banjo can pick things up nicely following a waltz, air, or song. Having several instruments for me is sort of like having a larger palette of colors. Also, if I don't really know the melody but don't want to play guitar, I can play some stuff on the octave that adds to the rythym w/o destroying the melody. But that's another discussion.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Too many instruments?
Never too many instruments! And talent? What's talent? You can learn! Good luck with that...
And there are others like you: after piano I picked up recorder then whislte then flute then harp . I know how to play a fiddle....it sound awful though...and I've just started voice lessons.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by nomithegnome
Re: Too many instruments?
Like Fiddlemouse said, play whatever you want at home. Bring your best instrument to the session. Knowing some tunes on the mando does not make you a fiddle player. Learn the instrument first. Later, you can try to figure out which one to bring to the session.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Jode
Re: Too many instruments?
20 years ago I had a pretty crap fiddle, two or three mandolins, a bazouki, two guitars, a fretless bass, a bowed psaltry, and, heaven forbid, a tenor banjo. I sold the lot and bought a decent fiddle. It's where it's at.
(but I now have a viola and a dobro)
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Too many instruments?
(Oh, and an overton low C)
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Too many instruments?
I always like to have one instrument on the go that I'm SO inexperienced at that ANY semblance of a tune coming out of it feels like a miracle. In my pursuit of that initial, heroin-like rush I've worked my way through whistle, flute, guitar, mandolin, fiddle (got housemaids elbowed out of that one), and piano, I never really got that far with any of them once the initial buzz wore off. Now a cruel lady has gone and lent me her b/c box. It's a whole new world of pushing and pulling. I want one!
Oh my god, is that what they cost!
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Too many instruments?
Read my bio I think you will know my opinion on the matter.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by Why Bother?
Re: Too many instruments?
Like Bren said, pick the instrument that fits what others are playing. Our session has alternating leaders, and somewhat different crews on those alternating nights. At the one session, I stick mostly to guitar, since I am the only accompanist who generally shows up. At the other, there is an excellent bouzouki player, so I play my melody instruments as much as I can. Just make sure you know the tune on the instrument you happen to grab!
For me, the only instrument that doesn't cut into another instrument's practice time is my harmonica, which I practice when the highway is less crowded on the long commutes to work.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Too many instruments?
I think more people should work on more than one instrument. It can keep the session sound fresh, as others have pointed out, and sometimes it can be an inspiriation on your primary instrument., reinvorgorating your playing and sound.
Sometimes you just have to play something. I was happy years ago playing pennywhistle until I heard Mat Moloney in concert. I knew I wouldn't be content unless I could play Irish music on the mandolin, and later the banjo.
If you have to play that sound, you have to play. There's no use being haunted by music or instruments you never played.
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Too many instruments?
Well I play bouzouki and i learnt many tunes on it using the GDAD tuning, when i tried the fiddle it was a big pain in the backside move all my tunes on the high D string a note down so i gave up as you cant really tune a fiddle a string down. Whereas on Mandolin, you can and you just play the exact same stuff which satisfys me, Fiddle's a great instrument but it affects my playing, like when i'm playing a tune on a GDAD tuned mandolin/bouzouki i find myself playing the fiddle version making loads of wrong notes and when playing the fiddle i find myself playing the GDAD part which again, doesn't sound pleasant. It just confuses me and in order to improve alot, i can't afford to make these silly mistakes as they will become bad habits.
I started off playing Guitar, it's completely differant but when i picked up the bouzouki i transfered all my chord knowledge comparing stuff with a bouzouki chord chart, like a D on a guitar is a C on the bouzouki, you remember these things so playing an instrument can help your other one, So in a way it can help your playing. But can also affect it.
I presume it's a matter of which instruments, like if they're related(with the same tuning on the bottom sting :P) then i suppose you can manage and that's great, the more the merrier. But there was an old saying "Jack of all trades, master of none"
Phil
# Posted on June 30th 2005 by ecidralla
Re: Too many instruments?
I'm adding a low A flute (big sucker) to my stable to keep my whistles & D-flute company. In theory, with a C-natural key I'll be able to play just about any D-flute friendly tune on the bigger one, just by transposing the fingerings around by a 4th. Which is not really that hard to do.
BUt I don't think this transition would be a radical as going from guitar to mando or zouk. More like going from fiddle to viola.
# Posted on July 1st 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Too many instruments?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts folks - I agree with the gist of the comments posted here, but I'm not sure my wife would! I told her that I'd bought a fiddle, and I'm sure she's developed a nervous twitch overnight.
I was thinking about my guitar - mando - fiddle progression some more last night when I got home from playing,and it struck me that it perhaps reflects my growing interest/obsession with session music. I started out as being happy enough to provide some rudimentary backing on the guitar, then thought some more and tried to work out a more complimentary method of guitar accompanyment (though I'm not sure how sucessful I've been), THEN became interested in the melodic structure of the tunes (sounds similar to your experience High-Strung), and NOW I want to be able to play tunes on a more expressive instrument (not that the mandolin is a totally unexpressive one, but I hope you'll know what I mean.)
Anyhow, I'll certainly not be taking out in public until I can guarantee not to alarm anyone, and I'll let you know my progress.
P.S. Avery (unseen122): I'll never think I have too many instruments again. Now, does anyone know where I can get a decent theremin?
# Posted on July 1st 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Too many instruments?
Just have fun,
My main session instrument is the Banjo, 'cos it's nice and loud, but I also play mandolin, mandola, bazouki (GDAE as a melody instrument, as I have long fingers.), bodran and fingerstyle guitar in about 5 tunings. I've also had a doodle on my girlfriends fiddle (ooh-er) and just need to get my head around the bowing.
The guitar I've been playing for most of my life, but only realy do songs and slow instrumentals on it (Martin Simpson and John Fahey being my major influences), The banjo I've been playing since I was 16 (gosh, that's 14 years ago).
Be persistant and bloody minded and it will come. A good memory helps,
Jim
# Posted on July 1st 2005 by TallJim
Re: Too many instruments?
Hi Jim, good to hear from a John Fahey appreciator! I've not heard Martin Simpson, but I will check him out.
# Posted on July 1st 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: Too many instruments?
As I now play three instruments pretty regularly -- guitar, bouzouki (for melody) and bodhran -- one of the more enjoyable/challenging experiences at sessions has been to encounter a tune I'd previously associated with one specific instrument and see what I can do with one of the other two. This is especially true for the bodhran, which chronologically is my "newest" instrument: I've more or less kicked the habit of thinking to myself, "Oh boy! I love playing this tune! Better put this drum down and pick up the 'zouk!," and instead I try to see the tune through another lens, i.e., as a percussionist.
And yeah, the hauling around of several instruments can be a pain, but I've gotten used to it. Except that, what with carrying a guitar in one hand and a bouzouki in the other, I wonder if my arms will wind up getting stretched a few inches longer -- should come in handy when I swing from tree to tree.
On a non-ITM note, re John Fahey -- I had the unique experience of interviewing him years ago at a live broadcast on my college radio station when he performed on campus. The highlight came when I asked him to talk about the folk scene out on the west coast, and he just looked at me for a few seconds and then said, "Folk scene? There ain't no folk scene out there, man. Everyone just kinda...died." Certainly did enjoy his guitar-playing, though.
# Posted on July 1st 2005 by sts
Re: Too many instruments?
I think I've followed a similar musical path to plinkeyplonkey, and I pick up the guitar less and less these days - there was always a melody person trying to get out, and for me the guitar wasn't doing it. I was liberated by the mandolin which I still play a lot (especially in bed! - you can't get a good bowing action when lying down) but the fiddle will obsess me for my remaining time on earth. When your eBay one arrives, don't expect it to sound good straight away - I bought one on there that had a few "issues" but I had it set up by a luthier and it's really nice now. Also don't let the groans and eye-rollings and cries of anguish from family members etc put you off in the early days as you grope around on the E string attempting to hit a B - it does all start to get better, and you really feel a sense of triumph when it starts to sound a bit sweeter. The early months on the fiddle are much more painful than the mandolin, but needless to say worth it in the end.
# Posted on July 1st 2005 by RichardB