Hi,
I know what they are and I know pretty well how to play 'em, but getting them up to speed, that's another story. If anyone's got a sure fire method that can help me please let me know, thanks.
Paul.
Well, I'm probably not the best person to be giving advice. My main instrument is the bouzouki which relies more on triplets and cuts for ornamentation.
Still, my advice would be twofold: practice the rolls over and over again and listen to plenty of recordings of fiddlers using rolls.
Matt Cranitch's "The Irish Fiddle Book" (which comes with a cassette) has a good section on rolls and other ornamentation.
Let Matt Cranitch be your Yoda and you will soon be a trad Jedi
Paul,
Soemtimes I learn the most from people who really struggle to master a skill. So maybe I have something to offer, too, cause I've worn out my fingers trying to get rolls to sound half as good as a Kevin Burke or Sean Smyth. Assuming your fingers are landing in the right places, rolls have two parts: timing and finger speed. Timing means hanging on that fist note a smidgen longer than you think you should and then letting the next four notes happen in a percussive flick. If you're thinking of the individual notes still, you'll never get the timing. Try doing cut notes--hold an index finger note and flick the ring finger down to break it into two indes finger notes on the same bow (or breath), the first note slightly longer than the second. Then work on finger speed. On fiddle at least, the trick I found for left-hand finger speed is to loosen up to the point of sloppiness--flub the notes almost on purpose, but keep those fingers firing on the main beats. Start within your comfort zone for speed and gradually speed up to the point of failure, then do it again. As the speed develops, bring back some control and precision. It helps to pick a tune like Last Night's Fun, with a second half full of rolls, and just go at it for 20 minutes straight. The other key is to do it every day for at least a month. Finally, play with other people better than you are (this is easy for some of us). Bottom line is you have to do it enough that your fingers learn to relax in between all the gripping and note holding and hammering on--every micro second they get a chance, let them go soft.
Sorry for the length of this, but you could do a book and still not cover all the finer points of a good roll. Patience and perserverance. Good luck, and keep asking questions!
Will
Thanks Will 'n Jeremy, is there a finite number of rolls you can practice before the little men in white coats appear to drag you away? I've noticed my neighbours beginning to look at me strangely lately.
Paul.
Ahhh...the little people. That's precisely when you know you've played enough rolls, is when the little people show up (though usually in GREEN coats and tiny pointed shoes). The Leprashoneen will crowd around you dancing when you've got it right. As Seamus Ennis says (as quoted in Ciaran Carson's great book, Last Night's Fun), "Tere's an awful lot to be said for this Irish traditional folk music and folklore, becuase first of all, you have to learn it, and first you must learn the Talk and then you must learn the Grip and after that you must learn the Truckly-How, and then you have the whole lot just to keep on practising it."
So, no, there is no finite limit to rolls or triplets or tunes or variations on tunes. We go on repeating ourselves, re-creating and re-experiencing the power of it all. Isn't that great?
Good luck again, and enjoy.
Will
HI. I don't know if you'd agree but the really difficult roll for me is on A in the low register . Obviously it's difficult because all the notes are in the cramped left hand and when i first played it people may have thought I was strangling a ferret! It's made more difficult as there is arguably at least 3 ways to play this particular roll i'e ABAGA, ACAGA, or AC#AGA. Personally, I'd recommend ACAGA although that is not generally the recommended fingering. Using this finguring, relaxing the hands just short of dropping the flute, practising the use of the 3rd finger particularly i.e trilling A-G to develop speed and rotating the top section of the flute( if your's is in sections) a little outward to help free up the fingers has finally enabled me to develop a reasonably decent roll.
hope that's helpful___Johnny
One exercise I use is to maintain a constant note and then do a step up/step down exercise. For instance;
Sound your low D then step up to your E and then back down to your D.
Next after sounding your D step up to your F# and return to your D.
Next after sounding your D step up to your G and return to your D.
Next after sounding your D step up to your A and return to your D.
And that's about as far as you might like to go.
Now to have this apply to your rolls all you should have to do is roll on every note but your D. So when you play your D and step up to your E you would roll your E and then step back down to your D. Step up to your F# and roll and then back down to your D. Step up to your G and roll and then step back to your D. And on and on.
Important: start out slow trying to keep it smooth and even. Try it using a metronome. Of course as you step up the scale you want to step down the scale as well. In a slight abc fashion it might be written something like this tho I don't write in abc as yet. What would be a sign for a roll anyway? For my writing here I'll use a tilde (~)
DE~DF#~DG~DA~DG~DF#~DE~
And as mentioned in one of the other post,.. I roll my A with the BAGA pattern. I also use this as part of my warmup. HTH's
Can ayone help me with rolls?
Can ayone help me with rolls?
Hi,
I know what they are and I know pretty well how to play 'em, but getting them up to speed, that's another story. If anyone's got a sure fire method that can help me please let me know, thanks.
Paul.
# Posted on June 17th 2001 by Thewookster
Re: Can ayone help me with rolls?
Well, I'm probably not the best person to be giving advice. My main instrument is the bouzouki which relies more on triplets and cuts for ornamentation.
Still, my advice would be twofold: practice the rolls over and over again and listen to plenty of recordings of fiddlers using rolls.
Matt Cranitch's "The Irish Fiddle Book" (which comes with a cassette) has a good section on rolls and other ornamentation.
Let Matt Cranitch be your Yoda and you will soon be a trad Jedi
# Posted on June 17th 2001 by Jeremy
Re: Can ayone help me with rolls?
Paul,
Soemtimes I learn the most from people who really struggle to master a skill. So maybe I have something to offer, too, cause I've worn out my fingers trying to get rolls to sound half as good as a Kevin Burke or Sean Smyth. Assuming your fingers are landing in the right places, rolls have two parts: timing and finger speed. Timing means hanging on that fist note a smidgen longer than you think you should and then letting the next four notes happen in a percussive flick. If you're thinking of the individual notes still, you'll never get the timing. Try doing cut notes--hold an index finger note and flick the ring finger down to break it into two indes finger notes on the same bow (or breath), the first note slightly longer than the second. Then work on finger speed. On fiddle at least, the trick I found for left-hand finger speed is to loosen up to the point of sloppiness--flub the notes almost on purpose, but keep those fingers firing on the main beats. Start within your comfort zone for speed and gradually speed up to the point of failure, then do it again. As the speed develops, bring back some control and precision. It helps to pick a tune like Last Night's Fun, with a second half full of rolls, and just go at it for 20 minutes straight. The other key is to do it every day for at least a month. Finally, play with other people better than you are (this is easy for some of us). Bottom line is you have to do it enough that your fingers learn to relax in between all the gripping and note holding and hammering on--every micro second they get a chance, let them go soft.
Sorry for the length of this, but you could do a book and still not cover all the finer points of a good roll. Patience and perserverance. Good luck, and keep asking questions!
Will
# Posted on June 18th 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Can ayone help me with rolls?
Thanks Will 'n Jeremy, is there a finite number of rolls you can practice before the little men in white coats appear to drag you away? I've noticed my neighbours beginning to look at me strangely lately.
Paul.
# Posted on June 18th 2001 by Thewookster
Re: Can ayone help me with rolls?
Ahhh...the little people. That's precisely when you know you've played enough rolls, is when the little people show up (though usually in GREEN coats and tiny pointed shoes). The Leprashoneen will crowd around you dancing when you've got it right. As Seamus Ennis says (as quoted in Ciaran Carson's great book, Last Night's Fun), "Tere's an awful lot to be said for this Irish traditional folk music and folklore, becuase first of all, you have to learn it, and first you must learn the Talk and then you must learn the Grip and after that you must learn the Truckly-How, and then you have the whole lot just to keep on practising it."
So, no, there is no finite limit to rolls or triplets or tunes or variations on tunes. We go on repeating ourselves, re-creating and re-experiencing the power of it all. Isn't that great?
Good luck again, and enjoy.
Will
# Posted on June 19th 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Can ayone help me with rolls?
HI. I don't know if you'd agree but the really difficult roll for me is on A in the low register . Obviously it's difficult because all the notes are in the cramped left hand and when i first played it people may have thought I was strangling a ferret! It's made more difficult as there is arguably at least 3 ways to play this particular roll i'e ABAGA, ACAGA, or AC#AGA. Personally, I'd recommend ACAGA although that is not generally the recommended fingering. Using this finguring, relaxing the hands just short of dropping the flute, practising the use of the 3rd finger particularly i.e trilling A-G to develop speed and rotating the top section of the flute( if your's is in sections) a little outward to help free up the fingers has finally enabled me to develop a reasonably decent roll.
hope that's helpful___Johnny
# Posted on June 24th 2001 by Johnnypither
Re: Can ayone help me with rolls?
The ultimate way to get your rolls crisp: Put them under the grill for a minute.
# Posted on June 25th 2001 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Can ayone help me with rolls?
Hi,
One exercise I use is to maintain a constant note and then do a step up/step down exercise. For instance;
Sound your low D then step up to your E and then back down to your D.
Next after sounding your D step up to your F# and return to your D.
Next after sounding your D step up to your G and return to your D.
Next after sounding your D step up to your A and return to your D.
And that's about as far as you might like to go.
Now to have this apply to your rolls all you should have to do is roll on every note but your D. So when you play your D and step up to your E you would roll your E and then step back down to your D. Step up to your F# and roll and then back down to your D. Step up to your G and roll and then step back to your D. And on and on.
Important: start out slow trying to keep it smooth and even. Try it using a metronome. Of course as you step up the scale you want to step down the scale as well. In a slight abc fashion it might be written something like this tho I don't write in abc as yet. What would be a sign for a roll anyway? For my writing here I'll use a tilde (~)
DE~DF#~DG~DA~DG~DF#~DE~
And as mentioned in one of the other post,.. I roll my A with the BAGA pattern. I also use this as part of my warmup. HTH's
# Posted on July 18th 2001 by Jayl