I propose to discuss about the old modes of ITM
I believe it means : (from Cath Maighe Tuireadh ; Battle of Moytura)
-suantraige : sleep
-goltraige : lament
-gentraige : hapiness
If someone has good informations about it, please let it know
Thanks
hey, thats really nothing to do with traditional music at all, its just folklore on the magical properties of the harp in ancient ireland. thats going back to celtic times.
now to get technical! you might want to know that the spellings you have would be ye old gaelic, the proper ones are
sunatraí
goltraí
geantraí (thus the popular t.v. series over here)
George, have you decided to compete with Glauber for funniest non-sequiters? *grin*
Máirtín! Are you saying that the magical properties of the harp have nothing to do with traditional music!? For shame! *grin* A million Iroids cower back in shock and dismay.
So, did the old legends of those magical properties stem from the locals or from the tourists, do you suppose? Certainly, we're all pretty much aware that the music strikes a sympathetic chord in most listeners (and certainly us players!), but do you think that, say, the music of Altan or Frankie Gavin can cause sleepiness, sadness, and/or happiness in the listener? What, d'you suppose, makes that all that different from the vaunted properties of the harp and harpists?
well, concidering that they are from fairy tails, where the musician makes all his enemys fall asleep, then escapes or kills them its just colourful folklore.
just imagine, mairead after singing a suantraí filled song say's come on guys, get 'em ! and the band uses their instruments to pulverise the dosey listeners! and if you think they're bad, imagine how leathel fiddlesticks are !!!
i think it would probably be better to leave this in the fairytails (along with Matt Moloys metronome leprechaun!) or else we could end up telling tails of Mairead Mooney and her Merry Men. and maol domhnaigh 'll end up goltraige(lamenting) about bad conversations again! and now that im on that topic, whats with the name ? maol is bald and domhnaigh is sunday. what does it really mean?
Hello there !
Thanks for your answers !
Thanks Máirtín for the spellings and thanks to Zina for your remarks. I think that what we call folklore and legends (even if it goes back to celtic times) influenced directly ITM. Even if it's just foolishness, a legend has always a part of true and what I think is that, in the ancient times, people may have been very much more sensitive to music than we are now : that's what this "Folklore" (Oh God, I hate this word ! In french it is terribly pejorative...) means. This legend of Lug playing sunatraí, goltraí, geantraí teaches us that Ceol had an enormous role in ancient celtic world and medieval world.
You probably already realised that Maol Domhnaigh it's a sort of play on words that Brad did with his surname (maloney) using nearly Irish pronuntiation. Or maybe he probably thought nobody would notice and so he could post anonymously.
That's my surname in Irish, "maol" does mean bald - but it also refers to monks (who are bald) & other devout people. Sunday is also synonymous with church for obvious reasons. The O Maol Dhomhnaigh surname is roughly "devout of the church". The Maloney's originally came from the Tulla area & served the O'Brien clan.
As far as ancient harp verbiage, that's fine if you’re playing ancient Irish music in a fairytale. Those terms refer to ancient myths & folklore where people danced to death, fell into a coma or cried uncontrollably to the strains of”magical harpers" music. Where they would than empty their pockets or kill them etc etc etc after the listener was incapacitated by the magic music.
Tentatively putting my wee toes in the waters here...with several observations about the original question.
The names of the so-called "three strains" or "three musics" in the Old Irish texts are translated usually as:
suantraige - sleep strain
goltraige - weeping or sorrowful strain
geantraige - merry or joyful strain
They can't really be considered "modes of early ITM", not in the way Aeolian, Dorian, etc, are modes in the musical sense. They were the three types of music that a master harper was to have mastered in order to be acknowledged as a master harper (if that doesn't sound too circular...). In the old tales they were considered to have magical effect in the hands of such a harper (I presume only if the harper so intended. Otherwise every time they set hands to strings people would be laughing or crying or nodding off or something, and wouldn't that get just a bit trying? I can imagine the poor harper longing for just an ordinary audience reaction, none of this magical music malarky).
In reality, I'm sure that a master musician then would have as marked an effect on people through his/her music as a master musician now (whatever the instrument of choice). If Frankie Gavin can make your spirit soar on hearing a tune, he's done as much as any real 6th century harper could. (Legendary harpers are, of course, a different matter entirely, since legend is not dependent on truth.)
Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
I propose to discuss about the old modes of ITM
I believe it means : (from Cath Maighe Tuireadh ; Battle of Moytura)
-suantraige : sleep
-goltraige : lament
-gentraige : hapiness
If someone has good informations about it, please let it know
Thanks
# Posted on July 3rd 2002 by kolaz333
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
hey, thats really nothing to do with traditional music at all, its just folklore on the magical properties of the harp in ancient ireland. thats going back to celtic times.
now to get technical! you might want to know that the spellings you have would be ye old gaelic, the proper ones are
sunatraí
goltraí
geantraí (thus the popular t.v. series over here)
the aí give it the ee sound.
slán
Máirtín.
# Posted on July 4th 2002 by martin t
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
is that like in frank sunatrai. i didnt relaise he was Irish
# Posted on July 4th 2002 by donnchad
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
George, have you decided to compete with Glauber for funniest non-sequiters? *grin*
Máirtín! Are you saying that the magical properties of the harp have nothing to do with traditional music!? For shame! *grin* A million Iroids cower back in shock and dismay.
So, did the old legends of those magical properties stem from the locals or from the tourists, do you suppose? Certainly, we're all pretty much aware that the music strikes a sympathetic chord in most listeners (and certainly us players!), but do you think that, say, the music of Altan or Frankie Gavin can cause sleepiness, sadness, and/or happiness in the listener? What, d'you suppose, makes that all that different from the vaunted properties of the harp and harpists?
Zina
# Posted on July 4th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
Where did the legends stem from - Maybe it was the stout.
Zina no competition from me (but i couldnt resist). as they say in tennis - it was an open court)
# Posted on July 4th 2002 by donnchad
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
well, concidering that they are from fairy tails, where the musician makes all his enemys fall asleep, then escapes or kills them its just colourful folklore.
just imagine, mairead after singing a suantraí filled song say's come on guys, get 'em ! and the band uses their instruments to pulverise the dosey listeners! and if you think they're bad, imagine how leathel fiddlesticks are !!!
i think it would probably be better to leave this in the fairytails (along with Matt Moloys metronome leprechaun!) or else we could end up telling tails of Mairead Mooney and her Merry Men. and maol domhnaigh 'll end up goltraige(lamenting) about bad conversations again! and now that im on that topic, whats with the name ? maol is bald and domhnaigh is sunday. what does it really mean?
# Posted on July 4th 2002 by martin t
Showing my ignorance
just a stupid comment from me (comment?) What are fiddlesticks?? Are they the bows? i've never understood it.
# Posted on July 4th 2002 by no longer exists
I hate "FOLKLORE" ...
Hello there !
Thanks for your answers !
Thanks Máirtín for the spellings and thanks to Zina for your remarks. I think that what we call folklore and legends (even if it goes back to celtic times) influenced directly ITM. Even if it's just foolishness, a legend has always a part of true and what I think is that, in the ancient times, people may have been very much more sensitive to music than we are now : that's what this "Folklore" (Oh God, I hate this word ! In french it is terribly pejorative...) means. This legend of Lug playing sunatraí, goltraí, geantraí teaches us that Ceol had an enormous role in ancient celtic world and medieval world.
Slán go foill
P.s.: this is not Folklore !!!!!! Thanks
# Posted on July 4th 2002 by kolaz333
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
Maírtín,
You probably already realised that Maol Domhnaigh it's a sort of play on words that Brad did with his surname (maloney) using nearly Irish pronuntiation. Or maybe he probably thought nobody would notice and so he could post anonymously.
Toni
# Posted on July 5th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
That's my surname in Irish, "maol" does mean bald - but it also refers to monks (who are bald) & other devout people. Sunday is also synonymous with church for obvious reasons. The O Maol Dhomhnaigh surname is roughly "devout of the church". The Maloney's originally came from the Tulla area & served the O'Brien clan.
As far as ancient harp verbiage, that's fine if you’re playing ancient Irish music in a fairytale. Those terms refer to ancient myths & folklore where people danced to death, fell into a coma or cried uncontrollably to the strains of”magical harpers" music. Where they would than empty their pockets or kill them etc etc etc after the listener was incapacitated by the magic music.
# Posted on July 5th 2002 by Brad Maloney
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
Good Lord Brad! Are you going to change your nickname every week??
BTW, this last one is good. Are you a Star Wars fan?
# Posted on July 5th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Suantraige_goltraige_gentraige
Tentatively putting my wee toes in the waters here...with several observations about the original question.
The names of the so-called "three strains" or "three musics" in the Old Irish texts are translated usually as:
suantraige - sleep strain
goltraige - weeping or sorrowful strain
geantraige - merry or joyful strain
They can't really be considered "modes of early ITM", not in the way Aeolian, Dorian, etc, are modes in the musical sense. They were the three types of music that a master harper was to have mastered in order to be acknowledged as a master harper (if that doesn't sound too circular...). In the old tales they were considered to have magical effect in the hands of such a harper (I presume only if the harper so intended. Otherwise every time they set hands to strings people would be laughing or crying or nodding off or something, and wouldn't that get just a bit trying? I can imagine the poor harper longing for just an ordinary audience reaction, none of this magical music malarky).
In reality, I'm sure that a master musician then would have as marked an effect on people through his/her music as a master musician now (whatever the instrument of choice). If Frankie Gavin can make your spirit soar on hearing a tune, he's done as much as any real 6th century harper could. (Legendary harpers are, of course, a different matter entirely, since legend is not dependent on truth.)
slán agus beannachtaí
Dearbhghile
# Posted on July 7th 2002 by Dearbhghile