i amn't sure whether this is a problem or not really but when i play the fiddle i tend to always change bow direction for each note (if that makes sense)(i've been playin about a year). but ive noticed i think that other fiddle players tend to play more notes in one direction. i know that for some degree you have to change direction in certain parts but am i hindering myself by changing direction (almost) every note?
Sean Smyth once told a workshop (dunno if it was just the one I was attending) that when learning a tune, he likes to start off with a single bow per note and then change that as he decides the tune demands. I shouldn't stress about it, but when you think the tune demands slurring several or even a couple notes, then just play it that way.
There've been some discussions about this in the past,t ry a search through the archives! have fun, and good luck!
Have a look at my teaching site - http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/ . There's a comparison of styles between the "Scottish" and "Irish" on the demo video clips, showing bowing using 1-note-per-bow, several-notes-per-bow, and combination of both of these. The demo clips are played up to speed, but the analysis and mechanics videos are shown at a slower rate. They're listed down the right-hand-side of the page.
Then again, at another workshop, Martin Hayes said to slur the whole phrase first, then figure our where to change bow, depending on where the line takes you.
I know, I know, mentioning his name opens up a whole nother can of little squiggly critters, but the fact remains, it takes all kinds.
Have a look/listen at/to Matt Cranitch's book/cd for good suggestions for how to start adding slurs to Irish music. Lots of variety for how to, but he has an exxcellent feel for it. Yeah, I'll leave that typo, it looks good.
One bow stroke per note is associated with the Donegal style - fast, and not all that much in the way of ornamentation. The further south you go through Ireland it seems that the more notes you tend to put into one bow stroke, and the more ornamentation, so the more lyrical the playing becomes.
BTW, the ultimate school of thought apparently says you only change bow when you come to the end of the A or B part or if you change onto another string, which ever comes first - but that sounds a bit apocryphal to me
There are influences at work on bowing other than the regional styles of Ireland. For instance, players who come into fiddle playing after a lot of experience of using a plectrum (banjo, mandolin, etc) often tend to play one note per bow stroke, perhaps unconsciously imitating the plectrum action they're used to. This is something that needs to be addressed fairly swiftly by a good teacher because it also tends to be associated with a stiff bowing arm and wrist - all inimical to good relaxed playing.
On the other hand, classical violinists who take up fiddle playing tend to think in musical phrases (not in itself a bad thing, of course), but may also unconsciously tend to use classical bowing patterns for these phrases which may not always be appropriate for Irish fiddle music and its (non-classical) rhythms. The answer for them is to get to workshops by the best players and teachers (e.g. Matt Crannitch and Pete Cooper who are but two of many in the British Isles, and who have very useful tutor books in print), and to concerts by someone like Martin Hayes who has a vast repertoire of bowing patterns at his command.
A lot of the advice given by teachers (normally well-known players too) on bowing tends be fairly non-commital ("do what feels right to you"...) - but learners usually needs some pretty positive advice, something to take away and work on. The "Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle" by David Lyth is a good book in this respect, as it shows several ways to bow the same phrase (which I believe to be a good thing to get under your belt).
The thing about "just do what feels right to you" is that if you haven't done your homework (ie: listened to as much good Irish traditional music as possible, preferably until it's overflowing out your ears and through your instrument), what feels right may in fact not be right for Irish traditional music, so be warned.
Oh dear, I just re-read that and perhaps it sounds a little harsh. What I mean to say is that if you listen to enough Irish trad music, you'll soon know when the tune demands slurs and when it doesn't, at least insofar as your personal version of irish tradtional music goes.
If you listen to the music and can't hear a difference between you bowing single notes and everyone else slurring the notes, you need to listen to more music.
Zina - I don't think you even know how to be harsh. Basically the secret for learning everything in Irish Trad is to listen enough - preferably for 24hrs per day for 30 yrs or so.
I only go on what I see here over the years (?No.)
I don't need to know about your Jekyll and Hyde personality. As for Dow he seems to know what buttons to push for everyone.
Two schools then: start by bowing every note, then take out the ones you don't want. Or my prefered way, start with one continous flow and put in the the accents wherre you want them.
Interseting, though, that Martin Hayes likes the second option, seeings as when he plays jigs he bows every note, 6 per bar.
I like discussing Martin Hayes. A lot of people seem to like his playing. Why is this when it is so repetative?
Jim Troy, let me second everything you said about Martin Hayes who, most importantly, before being a great Irish fiddler is a musician! He doesn't play a tune to show off his technique - how fast he can play, how many ornaments he can squeeze into a bar and all the other tricks that get called virtuoso fiddling - he explores a tune to discover its musical soul and uses his superb fiddle technique to express it.
As for the bowing part of this thread, of course you have to vary bowing to suit the music and if you're going to use ornaments I don't see how you can avoid slurring - does anybody bow each note in a long roll during a reel?
Is that: "Yes, I am saying that in jigs he doesn't vary his bowing."
or: "Yes, in jigs he does vary his bowing"?
Listen again to him to him playing "Paddy Fahy's" and "Sean Ryans" jigs or to his version of 'The Star of Munster"; all of these are full of bowing, ornamental and melodic variation; every repeat is a variation. In fact Martin Hayes makes more use of variation than anyone else I know of - with the exception of Kevin Burke.
Oh, please, Michael, you haven't seen Martin Hayes playing live, obviously.
Anyway, lots of fiddlers don't use too many slurs on jigs, I believe a friend of mine was told by Paddy Glackin at a workshop that this was one of the ways he deals with most jigs, as well.
I have been taught that while there is no single "right way" to bow a jig, there are however, lots of wrong ways. When you set out to learn a tune, you form an image in your mind of how that tune should sound. You need to adjust your bowing to make the tune sound like that aural image. Bringing out the correct rthym and phrasing of the tune will determine the bowing of the tune.
Even better, I'd say that there's not so much lots of wrong ways to bow a jig, but there's lots of ways to make a jig sound wrong.
We were out sessioning with two very fine fiddlers last night. Pete commented to me after that it was amazing how they sound very similar in style and feel, but that they go about getting that sound very differently.
It's not how you get the sound and feel, it's whether you get it at all, however you have to do so.
I agree Zina, The point is, if it sounds right, you're doing it right and if it doesn't, you not. The key therefore is knowing what it should sound like, learning the techniques to bring that sound out of the instrument and the patience and good fortune to be able to bring those things together.
btw - that concept I quoted of "no right way" ... I got that this weekend at a Randal Bays workshop.
Perhaps rather the difference is between his studio recordings and seeing (or hearing) his live performances. I must admit I've not spent much time listening to Mr. Hayes so I really can't comment on his soo style. But I have heard from several people that there is a distinct difference in his live performances. Perhaps he styles his playing to his intended audience. I can say, one recording he plays on I have spent considerable time listening to is the Tulla Ceili Band, 50th Anniversary CD. As far a celil music goes, there are moments of sheer brilliance on this recording.
Because listening to a recording means you only hear what he played right then, Michael, as you know very well. He plays whatever takes him at the moment live, just like anyone else. And he plays differently out at sessions than he does for performing or recording, just like every other recording player I know. Don't be idiotic for the sake of arguing, please.
Can't stand the way Martin Hayes plays jigs bowing every note. It's really tedious. (IMO). Some of his meldoic variations on the tune are interesting though.
"In fact Martin Hayes makes more use of variation than anyone else I know of - with the exception of Kevin Burke."
Haven't heard Tommy Potts have ya!
Vas is dis bowink? I can't get this "vary the bowing patterns" schtuff at all - I think only in terms of melodic and ornamental variation - the closest I can get to varying bowing is to purposely bow one stroke per note for a change - or slur a whole bar. Maybe this comes from playing other instruments before taking up fiddle? But I can knock a tune out OK, after a year of work.
Kevin Burke told me he doesn't think in terms of patterns either - it'd be like considering what you're going to do with your tongue while speaking. "Glottal stop hard pallate soft pallate plosive emphasis." You'd never get a sentence going!
But Kevin does use some patterns (every fiddler does, because the music relies on repeated motifs--it only makes sense that certain bowing patterns are going to fit really well on certain motifs and will bear repeating). Mr. Burke got away from a more predictable use of patterns after he faced up to where they were habitual and then took his bowing to another level.
To my ear, lots of good Irish fiddlers do a lot of single bowing. But it is artfully mixed in with well-placed slurs and varied timing and emphasis. Many fiddlers don't slur much other than onto strong beats (often described as "across the bar line").
Martin Hayes isn't the only one to single bow most of the notes in jigs. The difference is that--on some jigs, anyway--he tends to separate each note from the next. It's possible to single bow a jig with a more flowing or legato feel to the bowing and not have it come out so stilted. He's also fond of varying only one half of a tune, leaving the other half basically the same each time through. Lots of other fiddlers are remarkably inventive--Bobby Casey is one of my favorites for that. Also worth listening closely to James Kelly, Ciaran Tourish, Paul O'Shaughnessy, Martin Rochford, Tommy Peoples (no duh), Liz Carroll, and Brendan Bulger. At last year's An Ri Ra festival in Butte, MT, during a wee hours session, Roisin Dillon played a 15 minute solo on Beare Island Reel that was like a walking tour of western Ireland--something new and beautiful around every bend.
For a laugh, I typed Martin Hayes into http://www.googlism.com
The I did the same with Michael Gill.
One "opinion" that made me laugh was the following:
"michael gill is a good offensive player"
I think that sums Michael up perfectly: good and offensive!
Hmm, I did notice Burke on his videos does a lot of talking about how effective ways of playing this passage and that part. Yet he says he doesn't think in terms of patterns...maybe he's addressing individual bars?
On another track I'm finding more and more these days that much of what goes into a given player's sound is far less obvious than the instrument or fingering techniques. For instance on the flute Charles Nicholson (who pioneered the use of flutes with large toneholes, which are de regieur in Irish music now) wrote about achieving good tone by ensuring that the flute is pressing into the lips in the correct (i.e., his) manner, forming them into the right shape. Not something that can be easily explained in print. Varying the blowing pressure for different notes would be even harder to address - less point to it, as well. Yet so many people seem to think that if they get the right flute they'll sound like Conal O'Grada or someone.
With the fiddle you could achieve similiar effects with bow pressure, I suppose. Slacking off here and there. As opposed to getting another fiddle, buying a different brand of strings, etc. I'm reminded of an anecdote someone put in a post about playing various fiddlers, new and old, for a classical player, who wasn't impressed until Michael Coleman came up. She thought he had great tone, too - with probably some cheapy box and a set of Black Diamonds.
Frank Cassidy is another old fiddler with an amazing sound - even with muddy recordings. Like a trad Jascha Heifetz or something.
LOL -- I notice you left out all the non-family, unsavory ones, Conan! *smirk*
That's because my name stems from an old Persian word for the act (which is unthinkeable in some religions) of S.I. between the unmarried. The baby book my parents got my name from (my father always said that they got tired of looking and just chose the last one in the book) said that my name meant "beautiful woman, or hospitable woman", and never looked into more specific meanings any more past that!
The funny thing is that I recognize where some of these things came from on the Net, from Googling my name in the past. Heh.
Where on earth do you find these things, Conan, and however do you find the time? *smirk*
I'm at work! Where else do you think I find the time?
Apparently I'm "da bytch"
Your explanation of where those terms came from made me chuckle. I have a Jewish friend called Yoni and a Pakistani friend - Kailesh. K told me that when he mentioned to his dad he was meeting up with Yoni, his father nearly choked. Apparently Yoni is, well, something to do with Zina, in the Persian sense. ;)
All of which has little or less to do with bowing per note. So I'll put in my tuppence worth: isn't it very tiring, bowing EVERY note?
Kevin Burke doesn't think in patterns because he doesn't have to. He's apparently worked through that beginner stage. And he's astonishingly musical to boot. I'm guessing that most of the fiddlers who inuitively understand how to get the sound they're after aren't spending their time reading a thread about single bowing vs. slurring. But fiddlers who post such threads to begin with are probably looking for a more structured way to think about bowing, one that describes the patterns widely used by Irish fiddlers (even if those fiddlers aren't particularly conscious of using them).
We've danced around this before--good musicians don't generally think about technique while in the throes of actually playing the music. But plenty of even the best musicians can describe in detail what it is they do to get the sounds they get. This is particularly true of musicians who regularly teach--the challenge of explaining to others how they make the music they do stimulates them to reflect on and articulate their techniques. But when they're back into playing, they're just playing.
I suspect what Kevin Burke means when he says he doesn't think in bowing patterns is that he thinks instead in terms of musical phrases and sounds, and the bowing follows that. That's the goal--for your bow hand to automatically do whatever's needed to get the sound that's unfurling in your imagination. Sometimes, that can include a shuffle bow, or a particular sequence of single bows and slurs--a bowing package or "pattern" that produces the desired sound. An experienced player isn't going to think about the pattern--but the pattern happens when the player thinks of the desried sound. But inexperienced players can learn to play what's in their heads by breaking it down to technique and then building back from there to musical expression. Eventually, they too can quit thinking about technique.
In my experience, the nuances of bow pressure or breath pressure, embouchure, etc., can also be described and taught, though it's probably better if we each discover most of these things for ourselves--through obsessive listening and hours of playing. Still, there's nothing inherently wrong in asking a better player to shed some light on the finer points now and then.
Will, don't think of sequences of posts, think of them as phrases. In your mind you should hear how the posts should appear and then Jeremy's software will do what is necessary to make them come out that way. Eventually you can quit thinking their sequence.
That's right Danny, and precisely the problem with spoons--someone comes along hearing the tunes in their head rattled out on spoons and there's nothing doing but they have to play what they hear. *grin*
Yeah, the leap from technique to musicality is common to every instrument. Still, it seems easier on some than others. Fiddle bowing is just tremendously awkward at first, flailing away with horse tail tied to a stick, and your hand a good foot away from the strings. Blowing into a whistle or even a flute seems much more direct, and the breathing more like singing. The learning curve to basic competence feels shorter by far to me on whistle and flute than on fiddle.
I agree Will. and calling it awkward is being kind. It's bloody unnatural is what it is. We were talking this past weekend and the coment was made if someone invented the fddle today, OSHA and the Product Safety Commission would never allow it on the market.
Right Ken, and if fiddle was invented today the symphony players' union would outlaw such a contraption, insisting that musicians stick to something easy like oboe.
I've been taking lessons with Patrick Ourceau and he can articulate quite clearly how and why he bows the way he does. One thing I've learned, studying his bowing is... it's NOT intuitive! In fact, if you did not learn some of these bowings from someone else, I have no idea how you would pick them up on your own! The trickiest thing for a beginner, I would think, would be the cross string slurs, both on up-bows and down-bows. These occur quite frequently, at least in Patrick's playing, and not always where you would expect them. Everything is connected to the downbeat. Once you get used to cross-string slurs, they're not so hard and you hear them in other people's playing... But to just say to a beginner: "bow it the way you feel it" is probably doing them more harm than good in the long run. Go get a teacher and learn how he or she bows. Trying to figure it out on your own can waste a lot of your time!
I agree Bojax, the bowing IS NOT intuitive. If it were intuitive none of us would have to work so hard at getting it to sound right.
Like I said earlier "The key ... is knowing what it should sound like, learning the techniques to bring that sound out of the instrument ...". My point is that there is no single one right way to bow a jig. It will vary based on the phrase.
More importantly, it should vary each time you play the phrase. And, as we've pointed out many times, while there can never be one right way, there is always plenty more wrong ways.
bowing per note
bowing per note
i amn't sure whether this is a problem or not really but when i play the fiddle i tend to always change bow direction for each note (if that makes sense)(i've been playin about a year). but ive noticed i think that other fiddle players tend to play more notes in one direction. i know that for some degree you have to change direction in certain parts but am i hindering myself by changing direction (almost) every note?
# Posted on June 19th 2005 by lanefest rec.
Re: bowing per note
Sean Smyth once told a workshop (dunno if it was just the one I was attending) that when learning a tune, he likes to start off with a single bow per note and then change that as he decides the tune demands. I shouldn't stress about it, but when you think the tune demands slurring several or even a couple notes, then just play it that way.
There've been some discussions about this in the past,t ry a search through the archives! have fun, and good luck!
# Posted on June 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
Have a look at my teaching site - http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/ . There's a comparison of styles between the "Scottish" and "Irish" on the demo video clips, showing bowing using 1-note-per-bow, several-notes-per-bow, and combination of both of these. The demo clips are played up to speed, but the analysis and mechanics videos are shown at a slower rate. They're listed down the right-hand-side of the page.
Jim
# Posted on June 19th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: bowing per note
Then again, at another workshop, Martin Hayes said to slur the whole phrase first, then figure our where to change bow, depending on where the line takes you.
I know, I know, mentioning his name opens up a whole nother can of little squiggly critters, but the fact remains, it takes all kinds.
Have a look/listen at/to Matt Cranitch's book/cd for good suggestions for how to start adding slurs to Irish music. Lots of variety for how to, but he has an exxcellent feel for it. Yeah, I'll leave that typo, it looks good.
Helen
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by fiddlefingers
Re: bowing per note
One bow stroke per note is associated with the Donegal style - fast, and not all that much in the way of ornamentation. The further south you go through Ireland it seems that the more notes you tend to put into one bow stroke, and the more ornamentation, so the more lyrical the playing becomes.
BTW, the ultimate school of thought apparently says you only change bow when you come to the end of the A or B part or if you change onto another string, which ever comes first - but that sounds a bit apocryphal to me
There are influences at work on bowing other than the regional styles of Ireland. For instance, players who come into fiddle playing after a lot of experience of using a plectrum (banjo, mandolin, etc) often tend to play one note per bow stroke, perhaps unconsciously imitating the plectrum action they're used to. This is something that needs to be addressed fairly swiftly by a good teacher because it also tends to be associated with a stiff bowing arm and wrist - all inimical to good relaxed playing.
On the other hand, classical violinists who take up fiddle playing tend to think in musical phrases (not in itself a bad thing, of course), but may also unconsciously tend to use classical bowing patterns for these phrases which may not always be appropriate for Irish fiddle music and its (non-classical) rhythms. The answer for them is to get to workshops by the best players and teachers (e.g. Matt Crannitch and Pete Cooper who are but two of many in the British Isles, and who have very useful tutor books in print), and to concerts by someone like Martin Hayes who has a vast repertoire of bowing patterns at his command.
Trevor
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: bowing per note
A lot of the advice given by teachers (normally well-known players too) on bowing tends be fairly non-commital ("do what feels right to you"...) - but learners usually needs some pretty positive advice, something to take away and work on. The "Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle" by David Lyth is a good book in this respect, as it shows several ways to bow the same phrase (which I believe to be a good thing to get under your belt).
Jim
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: bowing per note
The thing about "just do what feels right to you" is that if you haven't done your homework (ie: listened to as much good Irish traditional music as possible, preferably until it's overflowing out your ears and through your instrument), what feels right may in fact not be right for Irish traditional music, so be warned.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
Oh dear, I just re-read that and perhaps it sounds a little harsh. What I mean to say is that if you listen to enough Irish trad music, you'll soon know when the tune demands slurs and when it doesn't, at least insofar as your personal version of irish tradtional music goes.
If you listen to the music and can't hear a difference between you bowing single notes and everyone else slurring the notes, you need to listen to more music.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
Zina - I don't think you even know how to be harsh. Basically the secret for learning everything in Irish Trad is to listen enough - preferably for 24hrs per day for 30 yrs or so.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Donough
Re: bowing per note
Wha...?!? Donough, darling dear, you're the sweetest, but I don't think you know me very well!
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
I'd second that. Donough, if you don't believe her just shout "Cantonese" and quickly run away, and see what she says.
Oo I know Zeens, I'm pushing my luck
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Dow
Re: bowing per note
I only go on what I see here over the years (?No.)
I don't need to know about your Jekyll and Hyde personality. As for Dow he seems to know what buttons to push for everyone.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Donough
Re: bowing per note
Except on his concertina
Forgive me, I just couldn't resist !!!
Jim
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: bowing per note
Two schools then: start by bowing every note, then take out the ones you don't want. Or my prefered way, start with one continous flow and put in the the accents wherre you want them.
Interseting, though, that Martin Hayes likes the second option, seeings as when he plays jigs he bows every note, 6 per bar.
I like discussing Martin Hayes. A lot of people seem to like his playing. Why is this when it is so repetative?
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: bowing per note
Jim Troy, let me second everything you said about Martin Hayes who, most importantly, before being a great Irish fiddler is a musician! He doesn't play a tune to show off his technique - how fast he can play, how many ornaments he can squeeze into a bar and all the other tricks that get called virtuoso fiddling - he explores a tune to discover its musical soul and uses his superb fiddle technique to express it.
As for the bowing part of this thread, of course you have to vary bowing to suit the music and if you're going to use ornaments I don't see how you can avoid slurring - does anybody bow each note in a long roll during a reel?
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by bong tree
Re: bowing per note
So you have to vary the bowing. But it's OK for Martin Hayes not to because he's not showing off?
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: bowing per note
Michael, are you saying that maritin Hayes doesn't vary his bowing?
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by bong tree
Re: bowing per note
On jigs, yes. But it's not just the bowing, he doesn't really play variations at all
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: bowing per note
Is that: "Yes, I am saying that in jigs he doesn't vary his bowing."
or: "Yes, in jigs he does vary his bowing"?
Listen again to him to him playing "Paddy Fahy's" and "Sean Ryans" jigs or to his version of 'The Star of Munster"; all of these are full of bowing, ornamental and melodic variation; every repeat is a variation. In fact Martin Hayes makes more use of variation than anyone else I know of - with the exception of Kevin Burke.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by bong tree
Re: bowing per note
Oh, please, Michael, you haven't seen Martin Hayes playing live, obviously.
Anyway, lots of fiddlers don't use too many slurs on jigs, I believe a friend of mine was told by Paddy Glackin at a workshop that this was one of the ways he deals with most jigs, as well.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
I have been taught that while there is no single "right way" to bow a jig, there are however, lots of wrong ways. When you set out to learn a tune, you form an image in your mind of how that tune should sound. You need to adjust your bowing to make the tune sound like that aural image. Bringing out the correct rthym and phrasing of the tune will determine the bowing of the tune.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: bowing per note
Even better, I'd say that there's not so much lots of wrong ways to bow a jig, but there's lots of ways to make a jig sound wrong.
We were out sessioning with two very fine fiddlers last night. Pete commented to me after that it was amazing how they sound very similar in style and feel, but that they go about getting that sound very differently.
It's not how you get the sound and feel, it's whether you get it at all, however you have to do so.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
I agree Zina, The point is, if it sounds right, you're doing it right and if it doesn't, you not. The key therefore is knowing what it should sound like, learning the techniques to bring that sound out of the instrument and the patience and good fortune to be able to bring those things together.
btw - that concept I quoted of "no right way" ... I got that this weekend at a Randal Bays workshop.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: bowing per note
I agree, it's what it sounds like. So why would seeing Mr Hayes make a difference?
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: bowing per note
Perhaps rather the difference is between his studio recordings and seeing (or hearing) his live performances. I must admit I've not spent much time listening to Mr. Hayes so I really can't comment on his soo style. But I have heard from several people that there is a distinct difference in his live performances. Perhaps he styles his playing to his intended audience. I can say, one recording he plays on I have spent considerable time listening to is the Tulla Ceili Band, 50th Anniversary CD. As far a celil music goes, there are moments of sheer brilliance on this recording.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: bowing per note
Because listening to a recording means you only hear what he played right then, Michael, as you know very well. He plays whatever takes him at the moment live, just like anyone else. And he plays differently out at sessions than he does for performing or recording, just like every other recording player I know. Don't be idiotic for the sake of arguing, please.
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
I sometimes wonder if Michael is playing at being advocatus diaboli.
Trevor
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by lazyhound
Re: bowing per note
I'm gonna have another close listen to our Mr Hayes and get back to you all
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: bowing per note
Can't stand the way Martin Hayes plays jigs bowing every note. It's really tedious. (IMO). Some of his meldoic variations on the tune are interesting though.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Dow
Re: bowing per note
Meldoic? Maybe I meant Carboniferous.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Dow
Re: bowing per note
"In fact Martin Hayes makes more use of variation than anyone else I know of - with the exception of Kevin Burke."
Haven't heard Tommy Potts have ya!
Vas is dis bowink? I can't get this "vary the bowing patterns" schtuff at all - I think only in terms of melodic and ornamental variation - the closest I can get to varying bowing is to purposely bow one stroke per note for a change - or slur a whole bar. Maybe this comes from playing other instruments before taking up fiddle? But I can knock a tune out OK, after a year of work.
Kevin Burke told me he doesn't think in terms of patterns either - it'd be like considering what you're going to do with your tongue while speaking. "Glottal stop hard pallate soft pallate plosive emphasis." You'd never get a sentence going!
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: bowing per note
But Kevin does use some patterns (every fiddler does, because the music relies on repeated motifs--it only makes sense that certain bowing patterns are going to fit really well on certain motifs and will bear repeating). Mr. Burke got away from a more predictable use of patterns after he faced up to where they were habitual and then took his bowing to another level.
To my ear, lots of good Irish fiddlers do a lot of single bowing. But it is artfully mixed in with well-placed slurs and varied timing and emphasis. Many fiddlers don't slur much other than onto strong beats (often described as "across the bar line").
Martin Hayes isn't the only one to single bow most of the notes in jigs. The difference is that--on some jigs, anyway--he tends to separate each note from the next. It's possible to single bow a jig with a more flowing or legato feel to the bowing and not have it come out so stilted. He's also fond of varying only one half of a tune, leaving the other half basically the same each time through. Lots of other fiddlers are remarkably inventive--Bobby Casey is one of my favorites for that. Also worth listening closely to James Kelly, Ciaran Tourish, Paul O'Shaughnessy, Martin Rochford, Tommy Peoples (no duh), Liz Carroll, and Brendan Bulger. At last year's An Ri Ra festival in Butte, MT, during a wee hours session, Roisin Dillon played a 15 minute solo on Beare Island Reel that was like a walking tour of western Ireland--something new and beautiful around every bend.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: bowing per note
Ah ha. Will's back home.
Yay!
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
For a laugh, I typed Martin Hayes into http://www.googlism.com
The I did the same with Michael Gill.
One "opinion" that made me laugh was the following:
"michael gill is a good offensive player"
I think that sums Michael up perfectly: good and offensive!
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: bowing per note
Another one:
"michael gill is happy and that makes me happy too"
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: bowing per note
Tee hee
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: bowing per note
Michael, yoiu laugh like a girl !
It should be "Ha HA" or "HOO HOO".
Please, you're embarrassing everyone.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by BegF
Re: bowing per note
I picture him with his little finger raised to his lip, tittering in a sinister manner, à la Doctor Evil.
Hey just tried googlism on Zina! Not a pretty sight
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: bowing per note
Hmm, I did notice Burke on his videos does a lot of talking about how effective ways of playing this passage and that part. Yet he says he doesn't think in terms of patterns...maybe he's addressing individual bars?
On another track I'm finding more and more these days that much of what goes into a given player's sound is far less obvious than the instrument or fingering techniques. For instance on the flute Charles Nicholson (who pioneered the use of flutes with large toneholes, which are de regieur in Irish music now) wrote about achieving good tone by ensuring that the flute is pressing into the lips in the correct (i.e., his) manner, forming them into the right shape. Not something that can be easily explained in print. Varying the blowing pressure for different notes would be even harder to address - less point to it, as well. Yet so many people seem to think that if they get the right flute they'll sound like Conal O'Grada or someone.
With the fiddle you could achieve similiar effects with bow pressure, I suppose. Slacking off here and there. As opposed to getting another fiddle, buying a different brand of strings, etc. I'm reminded of an anecdote someone put in a post about playing various fiddlers, new and old, for a classical player, who wasn't impressed until Michael Coleman came up. She thought he had great tone, too - with probably some cheapy box and a set of Black Diamonds.
Frank Cassidy is another old fiddler with an amazing sound - even with muddy recordings. Like a trad Jascha Heifetz or something.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: bowing per note
you perv, conán!
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: bowing per note
hehehe among the less unsavoury notions that came up were "Zina is deaf" and "Zina is a 3 year old Rottweiler mix"
Haha. cool!
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: bowing per note
LOL -- I notice you left out all the non-family, unsavory ones, Conan! *smirk*
That's because my name stems from an old Persian word for the act (which is unthinkeable in some religions) of S.I. between the unmarried. The baby book my parents got my name from (my father always said that they got tired of looking and just chose the last one in the book) said that my name meant "beautiful woman, or hospitable woman", and never looked into more specific meanings any more past that!
The funny thing is that I recognize where some of these things came from on the Net, from Googling my name in the past. Heh.
Where on earth do you find these things, Conan, and however do you find the time? *smirk*
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
I'm at work! Where else do you think I find the time?
Apparently I'm "da bytch"
Your explanation of where those terms came from made me chuckle. I have a Jewish friend called Yoni and a Pakistani friend - Kailesh. K told me that when he mentioned to his dad he was meeting up with Yoni, his father nearly choked. Apparently Yoni is, well, something to do with Zina, in the Persian sense. ;)
All of which has little or less to do with bowing per note. So I'll put in my tuppence worth: isn't it very tiring, bowing EVERY note?
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: bowing per note
Something to do with, indeed. *snort* hehehe. However did someone come to name their daughter THAT?! Very...er, basic. Heh.
Since when have we *ever* worried about keeping a thread on topic?
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
Even worse: my mate Yoni is a guy.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: bowing per note
SHEESSHH !!
Try bowing on the guitar !
Lost count of all the dickies I’ve destroyed !
That’s why I leave loads of notes out.
As Long as I get the first and last one, I’m thrilled.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by BegF
Re: bowing per note
ROFL! NEVER! HAHAHAHAHAHA! Conan, that's HILARIOUS! LOL!
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: bowing per note
Don't worry about staying on topic - it's only a fiddle thread after all....
:~}
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: bowing per note
What's a fiddle ?
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by BegF
Re: bowing per note
Zina, shouldn’t that be ROFTeeHeeing.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by BegF
Re: bowing per note
Tap, tap, tap. Ahem. Back to the topic at hand.
Kevin Burke doesn't think in patterns because he doesn't have to. He's apparently worked through that beginner stage. And he's astonishingly musical to boot. I'm guessing that most of the fiddlers who inuitively understand how to get the sound they're after aren't spending their time reading a thread about single bowing vs. slurring. But fiddlers who post such threads to begin with are probably looking for a more structured way to think about bowing, one that describes the patterns widely used by Irish fiddlers (even if those fiddlers aren't particularly conscious of using them).
We've danced around this before--good musicians don't generally think about technique while in the throes of actually playing the music. But plenty of even the best musicians can describe in detail what it is they do to get the sounds they get. This is particularly true of musicians who regularly teach--the challenge of explaining to others how they make the music they do stimulates them to reflect on and articulate their techniques. But when they're back into playing, they're just playing.
I suspect what Kevin Burke means when he says he doesn't think in bowing patterns is that he thinks instead in terms of musical phrases and sounds, and the bowing follows that. That's the goal--for your bow hand to automatically do whatever's needed to get the sound that's unfurling in your imagination. Sometimes, that can include a shuffle bow, or a particular sequence of single bows and slurs--a bowing package or "pattern" that produces the desired sound. An experienced player isn't going to think about the pattern--but the pattern happens when the player thinks of the desried sound. But inexperienced players can learn to play what's in their heads by breaking it down to technique and then building back from there to musical expression. Eventually, they too can quit thinking about technique.
In my experience, the nuances of bow pressure or breath pressure, embouchure, etc., can also be described and taught, though it's probably better if we each discover most of these things for ourselves--through obsessive listening and hours of playing. Still, there's nothing inherently wrong in asking a better player to shed some light on the finer points now and then.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: bowing per note
Wha...is it just me, or is the sequence of posts horrible scrambled?
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: bowing per note
Will, don't think of sequences of posts, think of them as phrases. In your mind you should hear how the posts should appear and then Jeremy's software will do what is necessary to make them come out that way. Eventually you can quit thinking their sequence.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: bowing per note
LOL Ken! No matter how much I imagine some posts disappearing, Jeremy's software does not comply. I'm still a beginner at this, apparently....
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: bowing per note
Same principle goes for any instrument -- box, flute, rocks spoons.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: bowing per note
That's right Danny, and precisely the problem with spoons--someone comes along hearing the tunes in their head rattled out on spoons and there's nothing doing but they have to play what they hear. *grin*
Yeah, the leap from technique to musicality is common to every instrument. Still, it seems easier on some than others. Fiddle bowing is just tremendously awkward at first, flailing away with horse tail tied to a stick, and your hand a good foot away from the strings. Blowing into a whistle or even a flute seems much more direct, and the breathing more like singing. The learning curve to basic competence feels shorter by far to me on whistle and flute than on fiddle.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: bowing per note
I agree Will. and calling it awkward is being kind. It's bloody unnatural is what it is. We were talking this past weekend and the coment was made if someone invented the fddle today, OSHA and the Product Safety Commission would never allow it on the market.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: bowing per note
lol conan...
kerri is under construction
kerri is rad
kerri is not only the top professional lady angler in the world billfish series but ...
I could hang out there all day....
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: bowing per note
Right Ken, and if fiddle was invented today the symphony players' union would outlaw such a contraption, insisting that musicians stick to something easy like oboe.
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: bowing per note
I've been taking lessons with Patrick Ourceau and he can articulate quite clearly how and why he bows the way he does. One thing I've learned, studying his bowing is... it's NOT intuitive! In fact, if you did not learn some of these bowings from someone else, I have no idea how you would pick them up on your own! The trickiest thing for a beginner, I would think, would be the cross string slurs, both on up-bows and down-bows. These occur quite frequently, at least in Patrick's playing, and not always where you would expect them. Everything is connected to the downbeat. Once you get used to cross-string slurs, they're not so hard and you hear them in other people's playing... But to just say to a beginner: "bow it the way you feel it" is probably doing them more harm than good in the long run. Go get a teacher and learn how he or she bows. Trying to figure it out on your own can waste a lot of your time!
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by Bojax
Re: bowing per note
For all you retro fiends out there, have a look at "Tanya" on the googlism site
Trevor
# Posted on June 21st 2005 by lazyhound
Re: bowing per note
I agree Bojax, the bowing IS NOT intuitive. If it were intuitive none of us would have to work so hard at getting it to sound right.
Like I said earlier "The key ... is knowing what it should sound like, learning the techniques to bring that sound out of the instrument ...". My point is that there is no single one right way to bow a jig. It will vary based on the phrase.
# Posted on June 22nd 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: bowing per note
More importantly, it should vary each time you play the phrase. And, as we've pointed out many times, while there can never be one right way, there is always plenty more wrong ways.
# Posted on June 23rd 2005 by llig leahcim