Something I've noticed over the years (sad, isn't it?). Actually I was particularly put out when a non-player told me off the other week for stamping too heavily.
If I stamp the front of my foot, it hurts. Hmm.
Left or right? (right in my case)
Stamping is left more or less for when I need to communicate that I have a certain speed in mind, I generally tap otherwise. And the answer to the last question is "yes". Sometimes both at once -- on with one foot and off with the other.
For me, it's pretty much always the toe. If I tap my heel, my leg bobs up and down, and that shakes the banjo/zouk/mando that I might be playing at the time.
I tap in time on jigs, and double time (unfortunately) on reels, and if we're going fast enough, my reel tapping is usually spasmic and out of time, so I commonly shut it off and don't tap at all on reels. If I happen to get out of time, it's fine, because Zina will stamp me back in (with a look of doom thrown in for good measure).
Quite an interesting image is emerging of legs, feet, heels and toes tapping, stamping and stomping in and out of time or double time.
Occasionally this sets up sympathetic vibrations in one of the tables at the Blythe and you lose your pint.
Perhaps the practice is to be frowned upon.
But does it help?
Hmmm. I never stamp, stomp or tap while playing. Never developed the habit. Sometimes I stamp on the beat with my heel or do the Canadian thing while listening.
“I tend to be a heel person “
Grego, don’t be so hard on yourself. I think you’re fairly well behaved.
A friend of mine taps the front of this foot while playing, but it’s never in time with the music - more like an involuntary tic. Fortunately, it’s not loud enough to hear.
... I do the Canadian thing to... I think we can be as indifferent as any. I do the left-heel-right-heel ba-da-bump on an on kinda off beat with the left (If i'm sitting) If I'm standing quite often I'll either go toe-heel-toe-heel like an offbeat stomp alternating foot to foot in order to keep the legs and hips from gettin' sore. Sometimes, If I'm screamin' and playing hell as dirty, I like to hit it hard with the whole bottom of the foot... like a stomp so to speak. Usually, I'm on my own and just imagining that it sounds good at that point though. To each their won I guess, whatever works for ya. I don't believe anyone could hit the floor hard enough though!
Being able to tap your foot(s) in rhythm no matter what your hands are doing is one of the most valuable skills you can develop as a musician, in my opinion. I spend a lot of time teaching pupils to do this if it doesn't come naturally.
However, I agree that it can get over the top on some kinds of floors/stages - esp with a size 12 foot in a hard shoe. A lot of the time I just tap my toe inside my shoe - unless I'm getting a bit overexcited - then anything goes.
"Being able to tap your foot(s) in rhythm no matter what your hands are doing is one of the most valuable skills you can develop as a musician, in my opinion. I spend a lot of time teaching pupils to do this if it doesn't come naturally. "
And classical teachers spend a lot of time breaking students of the habit. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I wonder if I subtly tap a toe or heel without realizing it. I'll have to investigate that. I've always been neutral about it with students.
"And classical teachers spend a lot of time breaking students of the habit. "
The sound of toes taping is out of place in classical music. The lack of toes taping is out of place in dance music. You'll rarely see a classical musician clogging while playing a fiddle either, let alone doing it on an amplified sounding board.
In any case I don't do it by habit, but by volition, when and where I wish to. Too much classical training at a young age I guess.
Well, I have to say, Dow taught me quite a valuable exercise while I was in Australia regarding this very topic, which was passed on to him by really great flute player down under... Essentially, the art of double tapping. Toes or heels, doesn't matter, left or right, doesn't matter, but it's the internalizing of the offbeat that gives the tune lift. You don't have to double tap or tap at all in sessions, but after a couple weeks of praciticing double tapping on your own time, it's astonishing how your rhythm improves. I spent one whole session in Sydney (well it didn't help I couldn't even hear the piper at the other end of the table) practicing double tapping, & for me, it was like walking & chewing gum, or patting your head & rubbing your belly, it was really hard at first, but became easier over time. But my reels have benefitted the most, rhythmically speaking anyway. Thanks Dow!!!!
Have you been trying it out some more, Em? It works doesn't it? I find that a lot of people try and get the same effect by emphasizing that offbeat, especially fiddle players, who sometimes have a tendency to yank their bow in a horrendously cringifying way on that offbeat, but if you do double foot-tapping practice, you find that your offbeat is consistently in time because you've "internalized" it (a good way of putting it), and that's enough to give a reel lift without having that horrible dup-YANK-aduppa-YANK-adup-YANK-aduppa-YANK thing happening, eeugh.
Well I almost always use a metronome on double time for help, & if it's a tune I"m not solid on, it can get messy... I"m still waiting for it to become second nature (but I know it will like anything you work on in Irish music, ie ornaments, learning by ear etc) but in terms of watching other ppl's feet, I now appreciate the skill & rationale behind the double tappers. If anyone sees a double tapper who sucks, let me know. Well, shoot, I'm a double tapper who sucks. But I don't double tap in sessions... yet! Hee. Yeah Dow, I owe you one!
Yeah, but since I'm not quite up to speed, ie a beginner, I usually just hang out in the 180s or so, sometimes less, sometimes more. On good days I can fly so that double tapping for reels becomes irrelevant, you know? It's more for myself to know the tune more intimately, fooling around with breathing patterns, ornaments, phrasing & of course the tapping, sometimes playing straight against it, sometimes with more of a *close your eyes Bridie* swing, thinking of where the offbeat is & how to best use it. Then bring it up to speed, & for me, honestly, that is the biggest challenge.
"fascinating , watching Harry Bradley ,or Paul Ó;shaughnessy"
I've noticed this -- it's a double beat. Their knee goes up and down double to the tap. If you have Harry on a wooden floor (like the local pub here) and it's quiet, he's actually doing a light tap in between the down beat taps. His knee rises up more before the down beat than for the back beat. I've seen him switch legs without missing a beat. I doubt he's thinking about it at all.
There's a recording of Liz Carroll playing solo on the Fiddle Sticks recording where it sounds like someone's dribbling a basketball in time with the music. It the track where she plays "That's Right Too."
I've gotten complaints from the guitar player and the fiddler I play with about tapping my foot. It's the only time I've gotten complaints about it, but neither of them tap their foot much. Liz Carroll is the fiddler's hero, so I directed him to listen to that track. He stopped complaining after that.
Another related thing I have sometimes wondered about is the crossing of the legs. If I'm bored in a session I tend to cross 1 leg over the other but then if I start playing I forget to uncross them so then the raised foot starts flailing wildly - i.e., if it were on the ground as usual it would be stamping. Is this the same as the "mid-air" tapping? (I don't think so). And is there some kind of message about playing with crossed legs (e.g., God I'm bored)?
OK I'm typing this from work, so I'm only estimating 180s to sound cool, but it's probably slower, with the dial around 4 or 5 o'clock....
Q it's not nearly as interesting as it sounds. I would get out a CD, prolly not yer Flook as they do play fast, heh, just pick a set of reels at a moderate tempo. Even though I normally have dominant right toe tap on the downbeat ie heel planted, during these exercises I often end up downbeating with my left toe & hit the offbeat with my right. leftrightleftright.... Does that make sense? It also helps my posture. I think Dow's source recommended foot 'rocking' ie heel toe heel toe, heel being the downbeat & toe being the off. As far as RSI, yeah I tried lots of combinations but the key (like Jack says) is to not even think about it. BTW have you heard that new P O'S & HB CD? I've only heard a few tracks, but I LOVE IT. He gave us Bonnie Annie & Comb Your Hair & Curl it at FKWS 2 winters ago, so cool to hear him record them! Anyway, back to the RSI, you can even just do microscopic toe crunches, the point is to listen for the offbeat to help the rhythm & I suppose the additional somatic effort in yer feet sort of brings your whole playing around in your head & hands. After you listen to a few reels & choose your style of double tapping, try playing a few tunes. It's not as easy as it looks, or it wasn't for me at least!
I'm at work. I'm tired. I can't believe I just wrote about toe crunches.
Yeah when I was first told to do it, I tried it once and couldn't do it for scheidt, just like the tapping head rubbing tummy thing. I said out loud that I'd go away and try it, but I was secretly thinking "bugger this, it's too hard and it's not *me*". But then I was at home and gritted my teeth and worked at it because I wanted to see if it'd help. A week later it was like I'd worked miracles. It makes it so much easier to play reels at speed nice and evenly as well. Maybe it wouldn't work for everyone, but I was pretty glad I tried it.
I was going to say that I can't do the left-right thing because I like to rest Tina on my knee. That heel-toe thing is good but jeez my ankle gets really tired. Em, I love your toe-crunching idea. I haven't tried it yet, but I will do as I'm sure it'll work for me. Why didn't I think of that?!
I used to tap my foot on the 1st beat of the bar pretty loudly actually. I used to annoy myself a bit actually, but I couldn't help it. I needed it to keep time. Now with this double tapping thing I don't even feel the need to tap at all.
I"m thinking it would be easier to extend the toe up rather than flex it down, but that's just me. I mean, can you believe there's even a link called podiatry channel? Wow, am I a dork.
PS Em, Bridie swings her reels heaps, and don't let her tell you otherwise. It's a nice swing, of course. Oh my god what's happening to me, I'm being nice to Beebs :-o
Ah it's just you're feeling protective as she ventures out into Yank-land, & beyond. Pretty soon you'll miss all her crap tunes & relentless slagging, so it's only natural. I, on the other hand, will be having my head melted...
BTW I've cramped my whole leg up from crunching my toes in like that before. I'm thinking if I start toe-crunching to my reels and it's a particularly good session and I get too enthusiastic, my whole leg could spaz out on me while playing, which might be a bit of a shock, not least for the musicians around me. Are you saying it might be better to raise my toes inside my shoes on the offbeat, and then bring them down for the downbeat. Would that be a safer and healthier thing for me to do. Pls help me, nurse Seay
No, seriously, re: Beebs. I'm extremely widdled off that she's leaving. I was thinking about it today and got quite depressed and was suddnely going to ring her and then suddenly decided not to because I felt silly
LOLOL I am vividly seeing you kick over the entire table at Durty Nelly's in a spastic moment during the Up Downy reel, pints flying, punters catching fire.... Anyway, yeah, there's a list of those muscle groups that work the toes, & basically any sudden, intense use of any muscle group can lead to cramping, tearing of tissue, etc... see the bit about the Achilles tendonitis. My professional opinion always involves massage & hot wax treatments. ;)
Dude I'm working in the Psychiatric Holding Unit tonight & apparently there's a lady in triage who is stripping down, pretty wasted & psychotic, I'm thinking she's a keen candidate for restraints & seclusion once the cops finish running a check on her, so please excuse me if I don't return suddenly!
PS If I get the beachside mansion gig, I promise Australia will be my next stop.
The other flute player at our sesh has this weird foot-tapping thing. It's more of a bounce than a tap, as it involves the whole leg, and it's not in time. He *plays* perfectly in time, but his tapping thing is out of synch with the rhythm.
We think.
See, he's a really really good fluter and musician so the bizarro stomplng can't automatically be dismissed as unmusical. So, before my time, someone actually sat down and analysed it: turns out it's a rhythmic cycle that phases or synchs into 8 bars perfectly.
Extremely distracting, though Especially in a miked up gig when dear Andrew is not only thumping his foot down loudly on a wooden stage, but knocking the mic stand at the same time causing an incessant out of time "boom"!
These days there's usually a spare underfoot pillow brought along to save us from his soles...
Anyhoo ... about the RSI - it's not a biggie, but I'm currently on a heavy duty quarterzone treatment to sort out my knee, which the doctor says is a result of too much foot tapping. ("Stop tapping your foot when you play", says he. "Don't tell *me* that, doc, tell the knee!") It's not really serious, and I wouldn't even have bothered sorting it out were I not expecting to be gallavanting all over Britain in a few weeks. Hum.
Q stop tapping your foot by double-tapping for a couple of weeks. It cured me really quickly. I swear to god it's like one of those miracle internet spammy e-maily things.
Heh, okie doke, will do. But just to clarify - it's basically tapping quickly and lightly with both feet .. or toes.. alternating - 4 beats to a bar in a reel instead of just the two... is that what y'all mean?
Yeah yeah yeah. Watch all the pros, they all seem to do it, well heaps of them do it so it must be good. Like I read it in your newspaper, so it must be true
Well, I've been practicing for the past two hours non-stop, and you're right - it's not nearly as painful as normal tapping. I can't wait until the myprodol wears off so I can tell for sure!
But hey, about this 'Oil of Snake' balm you said I could buy off've yer, I know you said to keep it between ourselves else everyone would want it, but it sounds like the sort of thing everyone should at least know about. Is it really made from real snake? That's just gotta work!
Oops, gotta go. The brother of the president of Nigeria needs my help getting some of his money out of the country, and I'm the only one who can help!
You can internalize the off beat to other parts of the body as well as through tapping the feet. Lots of flute players do this, I don't know how they manage to keep the flute on their embro when they do it, but you see their shoulders and arms pulsing on the off beat all the time. Some fiddlers also internalize the thing into their rib cages or somewhere else in the general vincinity. I believe someone once told me that Liz Carroll says she feels the beat down in the bottom of her gut.
Has anyone noticed that different types of musicians tap at a different timing from each other? Some tap twice the speed of others for example. No one is tapping out of time it is just with different rapidity. Have a look in your local session but I reckon it is instrument specific!!
When my wife and I were in a band together, we were living at the time in an apartment over our landlord. He didn't object to our band (really a trio) playing music per se, but he complained about our fiddler's tendency to tap her foot during tunes. So we had to put a small cushion or some other buffer between her foot and the floor, since there weren't any rugs.
Now, my wife and I are landlords, and live over our tenant apartment. But we still have to be careful about making too much noise, musically or foot-tapping wise, or we won't hold onto our tenants for very long!
There were these fellas having a session in their apartment one time with pipes, banjos, flutes, fiddles, etc., and the guy that lives down stairs from them couldn't handle the music coming through his ceiling anymore and decided to come up and protest. He knocked on the door and the music stopped. One of them came to the door and the guy announced he was from downstairs and could they please stop all the racket. The fella who answered the door was very congenial and said it was no problem and they would stop right away. The guy from downstairs was surprised and delighted. He returned to his apartment satisfied that it had been taken care of. As soon as he got comfy, the music coming from upstairs started up again and man became livid because they were so deceitful with him. He immediately jumped up and marched back upstairs and pounded on the door. The music stopped and the same fella answered the door. The guy from downstairs yelled, "I THOUGHT YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO STOP!" The fella said back to him, "We did... we stopped tapping our feet."
OK is nobody else ROFL @ quarterzone!!! or Q, was that just for my benefit!
Anyway, I try to put both feet flat on the floor in front of me which automatically realigns your whole body & has you sitting up straighter, ya know? You're all of a sudden much more mindful of everything, from your spine & diaphragm down to your phalanges & metatarsals. KFG (is that Kentucky Fried Guinness/Guitar/gan ainm?) I was really laughing at your dance improv suggestion, it reminded me of that video clip that got circulated around the email a while ago about a drunk driver pulled over by a state trooper, who makes him recite the alphabet backwards & walk a straight line into increasingly funnier things ending in a Broadway dance routine ie OK ready, leap turn kick ball chain kick ball chain, it's really funny.
I think maybe it's funnier if you're a medical type, Em. *smirk* That clip was from some movie about Las Vegas, can't remember what it was called. "Wow, you're pretty good. Do you dance professionally?" "No, ma'am...I'm just drunk..."
I dep in someone elses band where the fiddler vigorously bangs both feet up and down (his feet take off). Any music on stage has the quivers and wine glasses regularly fall off the stage.
He does it in session as well, so I suspect he cannot play without doing it.
The best tunes I've had are when you can't hear anyone tapping anything.
I personally find it a distraction as I react off everything around me,which can be as much of a hinderence as an advantage.
If you can't play in time,then you can't tap your foot in time.
I know plenty of great players who don't bother tapping anymore.
And as for spoons and bones,clap along cassidy .....
Generally, I like it when musicians tap their feet, as long as it's clearly in time with the music. I think the tapping offers a great percussive beat to the music, especially in solo playing.
For me...if I try to tap with the front of my foot, my calf gets tired, which is highly distracting to me. I simply can't tap in time with the back of my foot...so I guess I'll forever be a non-tapper
On Tues nite in the pub, there were a fairly large group of us playing. One flute player was tapping away their feet very loudly , of course no one said anything. Surprisingly it sounded grand on the dictaphone though...
But I have to say the "stomping" was kinda distracting while we were playing. However, we all tap our feet to the rythmn involuntarily.
A word of warning, the shoes that you wear *i.e. the hill walking heavy shoe variety, can make you the foe of all your session collegues.
I'm a bit late in this discussion but I was a contradance recently and the fiddler had a weird stomping pattern. Stranger than anything I've seen or heard before. She used one foot and the other was anchored to keep her from flying away. She would tap her toe (heel off the ground) and then slide her heel along the floor. I think that's it. She was going so fast I couldn't really tell. But she playing in time! ...and she played in tune, but she couldn't play nothin' but Old Zip Coon! (She could, actually, and did. She didn't have a double chin either.)
'nother latecomer, just snuck in before Emily shut the door!
At a quiet, relaxed session I don't usually bother tapping my feet at all.
As things liven up I might tap one toe.
However, if it's really cooking, I find I tap my left foot single time & holding my right heel off the ground I bounce my right foot in double time, with the emphasis on the off beat!
I have tried tapping both toes together at the same time & both heels, but that just feels weird to me!
In the 70's I wore clogs, well it was the fashion back then, & if you tapped hard with those babies on, the whole Bar knew about it - you didn't need size 12 hiking boots!
I agree with one of the postings above too in that I always teach my Bodhran students, from early on, to tap their feet!
Stamping your
Stamping your
feet - when playing, do you stamp with your heel, or the front of your foot?
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by pfft
Re: Stamping your
Front. Kind of an unusual question. Any particular reason why you asked?
Mary
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Antikhntr
Re: Stamping your
Something I've noticed over the years (sad, isn't it?). Actually I was particularly put out when a non-player told me off the other week for stamping too heavily.
If I stamp the front of my foot, it hurts. Hmm.
Left or right? (right in my case)
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by pfft
Re: Stamping your
Sometimes I tap the front, sometimes the back, sometimes both, on either foot at any given time. Just depends on the tune and who I'm playing with.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Stamping your
Ah, now is it stamping or tapping, Zina? On- or off-beat?
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by pfft
Re: Stamping your
Stamping is left more or less for when I need to communicate that I have a certain speed in mind, I generally tap otherwise. And the answer to the last question is "yes". Sometimes both at once -- on with one foot and off with the other.
K. I'm off to get some lunch!
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Stamping your
I tend to tap time with my toe, but I tend to stomp with my heel.
When listening I often use my feet as double ended beaters in rhythmic countpoint.
KFG
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by KFG
Re: Stamping your
I tend to be a heel person - I find toe-tapping becomes painful on my ankle after a while. Probably old age.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by grego
Re: Stamping your
For me, it's pretty much always the toe. If I tap my heel, my leg bobs up and down, and that shakes the banjo/zouk/mando that I might be playing at the time.
I tap in time on jigs, and double time (unfortunately) on reels, and if we're going fast enough, my reel tapping is usually spasmic and out of time, so I commonly shut it off and don't tap at all on reels. If I happen to get out of time, it's fine, because Zina will stamp me back in (with a look of doom thrown in for good measure).
Pete
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Reverend
Re: Stamping your
Sometimes I stamp the heel of my left foot on the beat and then tap the toe of my right foot on the off beat. Its like playing with a drum machine
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by natharious
Re: Stamping your
Quite an interesting image is emerging of legs, feet, heels and toes tapping, stamping and stomping in and out of time or double time.
Occasionally this sets up sympathetic vibrations in one of the tables at the Blythe and you lose your pint.
Perhaps the practice is to be frowned upon.
But does it help?
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by pfft
Re: Stamping your
Hmmm. I never stamp, stomp or tap while playing. Never developed the habit. Sometimes I stamp on the beat with my heel or do the Canadian thing while listening.
“I tend to be a heel person “
Grego, don’t be so hard on yourself. I think you’re fairly well behaved.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Stamping your
Canadian thing?
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by pfft
Re: Stamping your
A friend of mine taps the front of this foot while playing, but it’s never in time with the music - more like an involuntary tic. Fortunately, it’s not loud enough to hear.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Stamping your
"Canadian thing?"
Yeah. Ba-da-bump ba-da-bump - right-left-right... Like the Capers and Quebecers do.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Stamping your
... I do the Canadian thing to... I think we can be as indifferent as any. I do the left-heel-right-heel ba-da-bump on an on kinda off beat with the left (If i'm sitting) If I'm standing quite often I'll either go toe-heel-toe-heel like an offbeat stomp alternating foot to foot in order to keep the legs and hips from gettin' sore. Sometimes, If I'm screamin' and playing hell as dirty, I like to hit it hard with the whole bottom of the foot... like a stomp so to speak. Usually, I'm on my own and just imagining that it sounds good at that point though. To each their won I guess, whatever works for ya. I don't believe anyone could hit the floor hard enough though!
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by tulloch
Re: Stamping your
...eh-hem...to each their *own* - must be drinking time...
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by tulloch
Re: Stamping your
There's actually an official name for that, ped something or other. Sort of stepdancing with your feet while you're sitting down.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Stamping your
Being able to tap your foot(s) in rhythm no matter what your hands are doing is one of the most valuable skills you can develop as a musician, in my opinion. I spend a lot of time teaching pupils to do this if it doesn't come naturally.
However, I agree that it can get over the top on some kinds of floors/stages - esp with a size 12 foot in a hard shoe. A lot of the time I just tap my toe inside my shoe - unless I'm getting a bit overexcited - then anything goes.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by kris
Re: Stamping your
Doing things that shake your instrument are usually a bad idea. Unless of course it's a shakey egg - then the best thing is to stamp on it.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by kris
Re: Stamping your
"Being able to tap your foot(s) in rhythm no matter what your hands are doing is one of the most valuable skills you can develop as a musician, in my opinion. I spend a lot of time teaching pupils to do this if it doesn't come naturally. "
And classical teachers spend a lot of time breaking students of the habit. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I wonder if I subtly tap a toe or heel without realizing it. I'll have to investigate that. I've always been neutral about it with students.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Stamping your
"And classical teachers spend a lot of time breaking students of the habit. "
The sound of toes taping is out of place in classical music. The lack of toes taping is out of place in dance music. You'll rarely see a classical musician clogging while playing a fiddle either, let alone doing it on an amplified sounding board.
In any case I don't do it by habit, but by volition, when and where I wish to. Too much classical training at a young age I guess.
KFG
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by KFG
Re: Stamping your
I'm a dancer, so my feet are stamping all over the place when I play.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by m
Re: Stamping your
Well, I have to say, Dow taught me quite a valuable exercise while I was in Australia regarding this very topic, which was passed on to him by really great flute player down under... Essentially, the art of double tapping. Toes or heels, doesn't matter, left or right, doesn't matter, but it's the internalizing of the offbeat that gives the tune lift. You don't have to double tap or tap at all in sessions, but after a couple weeks of praciticing double tapping on your own time, it's astonishing how your rhythm improves. I spent one whole session in Sydney (well it didn't help I couldn't even hear the piper at the other end of the table) practicing double tapping, & for me, it was like walking & chewing gum, or patting your head & rubbing your belly, it was really hard at first, but became easier over time. But my reels have benefitted the most, rhythmically speaking anyway. Thanks Dow!!!!
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
Have you been trying it out some more, Em? It works doesn't it? I find that a lot of people try and get the same effect by emphasizing that offbeat, especially fiddle players, who sometimes have a tendency to yank their bow in a horrendously cringifying way on that offbeat, but if you do double foot-tapping practice, you find that your offbeat is consistently in time because you've "internalized" it (a good way of putting it), and that's enough to give a reel lift without having that horrible dup-YANK-aduppa-YANK-adup-YANK-aduppa-YANK thing happening, eeugh.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
Well I almost always use a metronome on double time for help, & if it's a tune I"m not solid on, it can get messy... I"m still waiting for it to become second nature (but I know it will like anything you work on in Irish music, ie ornaments, learning by ear etc) but in terms of watching other ppl's feet, I now appreciate the skill & rationale behind the double tappers. If anyone sees a double tapper who sucks, let me know. Well, shoot, I'm a double tapper who sucks. But I don't double tap in sessions... yet! Hee. Yeah Dow, I owe you one!
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
"Well I almost always use a metronome on double time for help"
Since the average metronome tops out at 208 that's the only way to get it to go fast enough, innit?
KFG
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by KFG
Re: Stamping your
Yeah, but since I'm not quite up to speed, ie a beginner, I usually just hang out in the 180s or so, sometimes less, sometimes more. On good days I can fly so that double tapping for reels becomes irrelevant, you know? It's more for myself to know the tune more intimately, fooling around with breathing patterns, ornaments, phrasing & of course the tapping, sometimes playing straight against it, sometimes with more of a *close your eyes Bridie* swing, thinking of where the offbeat is & how to best use it. Then bring it up to speed, & for me, honestly, that is the biggest challenge.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
Wait, Dow or Em, can you explain this double-tapping thing again... I'm not sure I get it.
Also, has anyone ever injured their knee RSI-wise from stamping/tapping?
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Q
Re: Stamping your
"fascinating , watching Harry Bradley ,or Paul Ó;shaughnessy"
I've noticed this -- it's a double beat. Their knee goes up and down double to the tap. If you have Harry on a wooden floor (like the local pub here) and it's quiet, he's actually doing a light tap in between the down beat taps. His knee rises up more before the down beat than for the back beat. I've seen him switch legs without missing a beat. I doubt he's thinking about it at all.
There's a recording of Liz Carroll playing solo on the Fiddle Sticks recording where it sounds like someone's dribbling a basketball in time with the music. It the track where she plays "That's Right Too."
I've gotten complaints from the guitar player and the fiddler I play with about tapping my foot. It's the only time I've gotten complaints about it, but neither of them tap their foot much. Liz Carroll is the fiddler's hero, so I directed him to listen to that track. He stopped complaining after that.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Stamping your
Another related thing I have sometimes wondered about is the crossing of the legs. If I'm bored in a session I tend to cross 1 leg over the other but then if I start playing I forget to uncross them so then the raised foot starts flailing wildly - i.e., if it were on the ground as usual it would be stamping. Is this the same as the "mid-air" tapping? (I don't think so). And is there some kind of message about playing with crossed legs (e.g., God I'm bored)?
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by pfft
Re: Stamping your
OK I'm typing this from work, so I'm only estimating 180s to sound cool, but it's probably slower, with the dial around 4 or 5 o'clock....
Q it's not nearly as interesting as it sounds. I would get out a CD, prolly not yer Flook as they do play fast, heh, just pick a set of reels at a moderate tempo. Even though I normally have dominant right toe tap on the downbeat ie heel planted, during these exercises I often end up downbeating with my left toe & hit the offbeat with my right. leftrightleftright.... Does that make sense? It also helps my posture. I think Dow's source recommended foot 'rocking' ie heel toe heel toe, heel being the downbeat & toe being the off. As far as RSI, yeah I tried lots of combinations but the key (like Jack says) is to not even think about it. BTW have you heard that new P O'S & HB CD? I've only heard a few tracks, but I LOVE IT. He gave us Bonnie Annie & Comb Your Hair & Curl it at FKWS 2 winters ago, so cool to hear him record them! Anyway, back to the RSI, you can even just do microscopic toe crunches, the point is to listen for the offbeat to help the rhythm & I suppose the additional somatic effort in yer feet sort of brings your whole playing around in your head & hands. After you listen to a few reels & choose your style of double tapping, try playing a few tunes. It's not as easy as it looks, or it wasn't for me at least!
I'm at work. I'm tired. I can't believe I just wrote about toe crunches.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
Yeah when I was first told to do it, I tried it once and couldn't do it for scheidt, just like the tapping head rubbing tummy thing. I said out loud that I'd go away and try it, but I was secretly thinking "bugger this, it's too hard and it's not *me*". But then I was at home and gritted my teeth and worked at it because I wanted to see if it'd help. A week later it was like I'd worked miracles. It makes it so much easier to play reels at speed nice and evenly as well. Maybe it wouldn't work for everyone, but I was pretty glad I tried it.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
I was going to say that I can't do the left-right thing because I like to rest Tina on my knee. That heel-toe thing is good but jeez my ankle gets really tired. Em, I love your toe-crunching idea. I haven't tried it yet, but I will do as I'm sure it'll work for me. Why didn't I think of that?!
I used to tap my foot on the 1st beat of the bar pretty loudly actually. I used to annoy myself a bit actually, but I couldn't help it. I needed it to keep time. Now with this double tapping thing I don't even feel the need to tap at all.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
http://www.podiatrychannel.com/anatomy/
I"m thinking it would be easier to extend the toe up rather than flex it down, but that's just me. I mean, can you believe there's even a link called podiatry channel? Wow, am I a dork.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
PS Em, Bridie swings her reels heaps, and don't let her tell you otherwise. It's a nice swing, of course. Oh my god what's happening to me, I'm being nice to Beebs :-o
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
Ah it's just you're feeling protective as she ventures out into Yank-land, & beyond. Pretty soon you'll miss all her crap tunes & relentless slagging, so it's only natural. I, on the other hand, will be having my head melted...
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
BTW I've cramped my whole leg up from crunching my toes in like that before. I'm thinking if I start toe-crunching to my reels and it's a particularly good session and I get too enthusiastic, my whole leg could spaz out on me while playing, which might be a bit of a shock, not least for the musicians around me. Are you saying it might be better to raise my toes inside my shoes on the offbeat, and then bring them down for the downbeat. Would that be a safer and healthier thing for me to do. Pls help me, nurse Seay
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
No, seriously, re: Beebs. I'm extremely widdled off that she's leaving. I was thinking about it today and got quite depressed and was suddnely going to ring her and then suddenly decided not to because I felt silly
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
LOLOL I am vividly seeing you kick over the entire table at Durty Nelly's in a spastic moment during the Up Downy reel, pints flying, punters catching fire.... Anyway, yeah, there's a list of those muscle groups that work the toes, & basically any sudden, intense use of any muscle group can lead to cramping, tearing of tissue, etc... see the bit about the Achilles tendonitis. My professional opinion always involves massage & hot wax treatments. ;)
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
Awwwwwwwww hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug
Dude I'm working in the Psychiatric Holding Unit tonight & apparently there's a lady in triage who is stripping down, pretty wasted & psychotic, I'm thinking she's a keen candidate for restraints & seclusion once the cops finish running a check on her, so please excuse me if I don't return suddenly!
PS If I get the beachside mansion gig, I promise Australia will be my next stop.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
Don't it always seem to go....
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Stamping your
Thanks dowsie
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by bb
Re: Stamping your
Watch Martin Hayes in concert. It's almost a masterclass in foot tapping in it's own right.
Trevor
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Stamping your
The other flute player at our sesh has this weird foot-tapping thing. It's more of a bounce than a tap, as it involves the whole leg, and it's not in time. He *plays* perfectly in time, but his tapping thing is out of synch with the rhythm.
Especially in a miked up gig when dear Andrew is not only thumping his foot down loudly on a wooden stage, but knocking the mic stand at the same time causing an incessant out of time "boom"!
We think.
See, he's a really really good fluter and musician so the bizarro stomplng can't automatically be dismissed as unmusical. So, before my time, someone actually sat down and analysed it: turns out it's a rhythmic cycle that phases or synchs into 8 bars perfectly.
Extremely distracting, though
These days there's usually a spare underfoot pillow brought along to save us from his soles...
Anyhoo ... about the RSI - it's not a biggie, but I'm currently on a heavy duty quarterzone treatment to sort out my knee, which the doctor says is a result of too much foot tapping. ("Stop tapping your foot when you play", says he. "Don't tell *me* that, doc, tell the knee!") It's not really serious, and I wouldn't even have bothered sorting it out were I not expecting to be gallavanting all over Britain in a few weeks. Hum.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Q
Re: Stamping your
Q stop tapping your foot by double-tapping for a couple of weeks. It cured me really quickly. I swear to god it's like one of those miracle internet spammy e-maily things.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
Heh, okie doke, will do. But just to clarify - it's basically tapping quickly and lightly with both feet .. or toes.. alternating - 4 beats to a bar in a reel instead of just the two... is that what y'all mean?
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Q
Re: Stamping your
Yeah yeah yeah. Watch all the pros, they all seem to do it, well heaps of them do it so it must be good. Like I read it in your newspaper, so it must be true
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
Well, I've been practicing for the past two hours non-stop, and you're right - it's not nearly as painful as normal tapping. I can't wait until the myprodol wears off so I can tell for sure!
But hey, about this 'Oil of Snake' balm you said I could buy off've yer, I know you said to keep it between ourselves else everyone would want it, but it sounds like the sort of thing everyone should at least know about. Is it really made from real snake? That's just gotta work!
Oops, gotta go. The brother of the president of Nigeria needs my help getting some of his money out of the country, and I'm the only one who can help!
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Q
Re: Stamping your
Standing - Both or front
Sitting - Front or both
I should probably just stick to one, doing both front and heel isn't working =P
Cheers,
Armand
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by armandale
Re: Stamping your
Get a set rhythm going. Try this, and it's ok to actually practice it to get it down:
Quick double tap with the toe, pivot on ball to raise the heel on the second tap, then down with the heel.
One & Two, One & Two. . .
KFG
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by KFG
Re: Stamping your
You can internalize the off beat to other parts of the body as well as through tapping the feet. Lots of flute players do this, I don't know how they manage to keep the flute on their embro when they do it, but you see their shoulders and arms pulsing on the off beat all the time. Some fiddlers also internalize the thing into their rib cages or somewhere else in the general vincinity. I believe someone once told me that Liz Carroll says she feels the beat down in the bottom of her gut.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Stamping your
Has anyone noticed that different types of musicians tap at a different timing from each other? Some tap twice the speed of others for example. No one is tapping out of time it is just with different rapidity. Have a look in your local session but I reckon it is instrument specific!!
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Stamping your
Oh and I reckon I am largely a heel man!!
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Stamping your
When my wife and I were in a band together, we were living at the time in an apartment over our landlord. He didn't object to our band (really a trio) playing music per se, but he complained about our fiddler's tendency to tap her foot during tunes. So we had to put a small cushion or some other buffer between her foot and the floor, since there weren't any rugs.
Now, my wife and I are landlords, and live over our tenant apartment. But we still have to be careful about making too much noise, musically or foot-tapping wise, or we won't hold onto our tenants for very long!
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by sts
Re: Stamping your
There were these fellas having a session in their apartment one time with pipes, banjos, flutes, fiddles, etc., and the guy that lives down stairs from them couldn't handle the music coming through his ceiling anymore and decided to come up and protest. He knocked on the door and the music stopped. One of them came to the door and the guy announced he was from downstairs and could they please stop all the racket. The fella who answered the door was very congenial and said it was no problem and they would stop right away. The guy from downstairs was surprised and delighted. He returned to his apartment satisfied that it had been taken care of. As soon as he got comfy, the music coming from upstairs started up again and man became livid because they were so deceitful with him. He immediately jumped up and marched back upstairs and pounded on the door. The music stopped and the same fella answered the door. The guy from downstairs yelled, "I THOUGHT YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO STOP!" The fella said back to him, "We did... we stopped tapping our feet."
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Stamping your
OK is nobody else ROFL @ quarterzone!!! or Q, was that just for my benefit!
Anyway, I try to put both feet flat on the floor in front of me which automatically realigns your whole body & has you sitting up straighter, ya know? You're all of a sudden much more mindful of everything, from your spine & diaphragm down to your phalanges & metatarsals. KFG (is that Kentucky Fried Guinness/Guitar/gan ainm?) I was really laughing at your dance improv suggestion, it reminded me of that video clip that got circulated around the email a while ago about a drunk driver pulled over by a state trooper, who makes him recite the alphabet backwards & walk a straight line into increasingly funnier things ending in a Broadway dance routine ie OK ready, leap turn kick ball chain kick ball chain, it's really funny.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
Q, I'm so glad you didn't mention the one for erection problems!
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
Hey Emin they're talking about what chords to use in you on another thread.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Stamping your
I think maybe it's funnier if you're a medical type, Em. *smirk* That clip was from some movie about Las Vegas, can't remember what it was called. "Wow, you're pretty good. Do you dance professionally?" "No, ma'am...I'm just drunk..."
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Stamping your
BTW, the barrel rolls that the guy does towards the end of the little dance routine is actually extremely difficult.
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Stamping your
Can you find it on the net anywhere? Step, BUMP! Step BUMP BUMP!!
# Posted on June 12th 2005 by emily_bmore
Re: Stamping your
I guess you guys already heard that one then eh?
# Posted on June 12th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Stamping your
I dep in someone elses band where the fiddler vigorously bangs both feet up and down (his feet take off). Any music on stage has the quivers and wine glasses regularly fall off the stage.
He does it in session as well, so I suspect he cannot play without doing it.
# Posted on June 12th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Stamping your
The best tunes I've had are when you can't hear anyone tapping anything.
I personally find it a distraction as I react off everything around me,which can be as much of a hinderence as an advantage.
If you can't play in time,then you can't tap your foot in time.
I know plenty of great players who don't bother tapping anymore.
And as for spoons and bones,clap along cassidy .....
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by P.browne
Re: Stamping your
Except for John Joe,I'd let him bang my wife along to tunes.
Lucky,I don't have a wife.
How's Jack?
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by P.browne
Re: Stamping your
Generally, I like it when musicians tap their feet, as long as it's clearly in time with the music. I think the tapping offers a great percussive beat to the music, especially in solo playing.
For me...if I try to tap with the front of my foot, my calf gets tired, which is highly distracting to me. I simply can't tap in time with the back of my foot...so I guess I'll forever be a non-tapper
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by Pete D
Re: Stamping your
Hey Peter... Jack's fine -- he misses Ireland though. I'm sure everything is great there at the Cobblestone... right?
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Stamping your
"Clap along Cassidy"
Errr... not sure how to take that
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Stamping your
whatever, however, whoever . . .
# Posted on June 15th 2005 by lisaniska
Re: Stamping your feet LOUDLY
On Tues nite in the pub, there were a fairly large group of us playing. One flute player was tapping away their feet very loudly , of course no one said anything. Surprisingly it sounded grand on the dictaphone though...
But I have to say the "stomping" was kinda distracting while we were playing. However, we all tap our feet to the rythmn involuntarily.
A word of warning, the shoes that you wear *i.e. the hill walking heavy shoe variety, can make you the foe of all your session collegues.
# Posted on June 16th 2005 by flauta dolce
Re: Stamping your
I'm a bit late in this discussion but I was a contradance recently and the fiddler had a weird stomping pattern. Stranger than anything I've seen or heard before. She used one foot and the other was anchored to keep her from flying away. She would tap her toe (heel off the ground) and then slide her heel along the floor. I think that's it. She was going so fast I couldn't really tell. But she playing in time! ...and she played in tune, but she couldn't play nothin' but Old Zip Coon! (She could, actually, and did. She didn't have a double chin either.)
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Emily Horne
Re: Stamping your
'nother latecomer, just snuck in before Emily shut the door!
At a quiet, relaxed session I don't usually bother tapping my feet at all.
As things liven up I might tap one toe.
However, if it's really cooking, I find I tap my left foot single time & holding my right heel off the ground I bounce my right foot in double time, with the emphasis on the off beat!
I have tried tapping both toes together at the same time & both heels, but that just feels weird to me!
In the 70's I wore clogs, well it was the fashion back then, & if you tapped hard with those babies on, the whole Bar knew about it - you didn't need size 12 hiking boots!
I agree with one of the postings above too in that I always teach my Bodhran students, from early on, to tap their feet!
# Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan