We've been discussing the use of rosin a few times in the past. Now: ever seen a classical violinist applying extra rosin on his bow before jumping into the final part of a violin concerto? I've never seen such....
In ITM-circles there seems to be a real rosin addiction though. My luthier once told me,when I wanted to have him rehair my bow because I had to use more and more rosin: your bowhair is OK, use l e s s rosin!
So: why do so many ITM-players over the world use so much rosin? Is ITM 'asking' for more rosin than classical styles?
Or is it perhaps a method to cover up a sloppy technique, is it a quest for a more gravelly sound or is it simply the trap I fell in when using more and more?
Why do I ask all this? Sometimes I am using too little.....; what is your trick to decide whether it is time to put some on?
Never been much of a mystery to me. I can feel when the bow begins to loose its bite on the strings. I agree though, many fiddlers use more rosin than needed.
...Only kidding, sometimes I go for days without applying, then I need it and can't find it becasue I left it on my filing cabinet. Then I have to use a tiny chunk left from the last time I dropped it on the kitchen floor.
Depends on the crowd you travel in I suppose... I use very little However, I was in Ennis with Kerri a while back and I saw a great fiddler furiously rubbing the bow with rosin as if tree sap was going out of style. dust everywhere. minutes went on and the application continued. i was starting to get concerned. Finally it stopped and a great tune ensued.
Then out of the blue kerri says... "so that settles it."
myself "what?"...
kerri - "i've always wondered if there was a state of *too much rosin*... "
Also depends on your bow. With my pernambuco bow, I apply a little rosin every time I play. (Which, in the case of that bow, is about every other day.) With my Incredibow, I rosin it about once a week, or when I develop "dead" spots or it squeaks on the open E. How much rosin I apply to that bow depends on the degree of "deadness" I've heard.
However, I don't generally rosin any bow heavily; I start light and add more as needed to get the sound I want. I happen not to like the heavily scratchy sound, at least not from my own fiddle.
It does seem for some folks to be like a billiard player thoughtfully chalking the cue as he looks over the table, or a laborer rolling up sleeves, spitting in the palms and rubbing them together. A ritual that signifies one's about to get down to business.
No need for much rosin, assuming the bow is in good nick. I think the over-use is to compensate for the muck and film of grease accumulated on the bow hair (often through holding the bow away from the frog). A snow-white belly may be traditional, but it only acts as grinding paste when you try to clean it off.
Fidkid, you got that one right. Part of the old get-settled routine for a lot of people, I think. Used to be for me too, before I started paying closer attention to how I sounded.
Ironically, this same subject came up today on a music list I'm on. One very experienced Irish fiddler mentioned that he used to be of the just-enough-rosin-to-get-good-sound school, but now after playing with a lot of Cape Breton fiddlers he is using much more rosin. He finds it gives him more precise control over the fine details of his sound. He does report, though, that he cleans the excess off of his fiddle every night to prevent the fiddle from developing a tinny sound.
It's also good in helping plectrum players hold onto their picks.
A bit of rosin on the pick-holding fingers and the little thing is glued up for a rollicking set of pickin'. I just learned this from a fellow who had been constantly sucking on peppermints so he could touch them and glue his pick in place with the sugar.
It seems that American old-time players also often like to play in the rosin cloud ...
One of the things classical players learn to do is change bow direction with no discernable change to the sound. This is catagorically not what diddlers do. Crunch = rosin.
Eh, depends, Michael. I can get a nice crisp little crunch by using some downward pressure of my forefinger on the bow stick. Granted some rosin is necessary to accomplish it, but not loads of it unless I've been neglecting my bow and haven't rehaired it since dirt was new. But then my bow tends to a slightly scratchy sound anyway, which may give me a leg up on getting the crunch.
Was listening to a scottish fiddler the other day and thinking - it's amazing the variety and beauty of the schreeches/grunts/just plain weird sounds that the fiddle can make. The proper little grunt at the right time is like the icing on the cake in certain tunes.
Now as for making these fiddle-grunts (graunches?)... I imagine there is as much variety in the how-tos of the sound as in the sounds themself. Anyone want to share some good graunch-techniques?
I don't know if its a good "graunch technique", but here's what I do: a combination of applying pressure with the forefinger on the bow and playing in the bottom middle of the bow -- what I get is (at least in my ear) a nice scritchy sound. Its a little crunchy and also scratchy. Its difficult to describe in words. Anyway, this can be done in a roll, a triplet, or at the beginning of any note. Its nice as a way to emphasize an important ONE beat of a phrase.
"...change bow direction with no discernable change to the sound... " They make the bow travel in small arc when they get to the end of the bow just before changing direction. Same thing when they get to the heel. Looks like drawing a slim figure-of-eight if you were to view the whole thing from above.
Concerning Rosin.
I like Fidkid's observation. It has a ritual air over it.
I tend to apply more rosin, the louder the session gets. Probably all in my head, as I have a quiet fiddle and a too-light bow. My fiddlemaker tells me wiping the fiddle off after every session cannot be stressed enough.
Another key to a good controlled graunch is bowing in that sweet spot very near the bridge. Paddy Canny is the master at targeting that narrow spot.
As far as pressure with the forefinger, I try to do it with more of a wrist rotation, almost like turning a door knob. I find quicker response and better control that way. For me anyway.
Sometimes too much rosin on the bow willl make it slip like too little will and so I always carry an old toothbrush to gently brush away the excess ....slightly loosen the bow hair first.
Years ago ( pauses to knock the dottle out of his mearschum on the hob ) a friend of mine was playing both fiddle and mandolin, and found, like stv culchie has mentioned, that some rosin on the thumb end of the plectrum gave a firmer grip, and kept a 35mm film canister of the stuff, finely ground, in his mando case. Said friend was a bit wild and wooly, not to say casually dressed. Came the time the boys in blue stopped him and asked to see inside his case...........
"Wot's this then ?'.
"Smells a bit funny to me Sarge.....".
"Doesn't turn my tongue numb, though....".
Took him a while to talk his way out of that one......
I've also seen said friend rosin-up, then give the bow a couple of strokes through the air, like a fencer testing his blade, to remove the excess...."Have at thee, sirra !...".
G Pete sez: "Came the time the boys in blue stopped him and asked to see inside his case...........
"Wot's this then ?'.
"Smells a bit funny to me Sarge.....".
"Doesn't turn my tongue numb, though....".
Took him a while to talk his way out of that one......"
If one of 'em had tried to hoover a bit up a nostril the talking his way out of it would have been shortened by quite a bit.
Way back in my school days when I practised almost daily, I never used to rosin my bow at all, I rarely used the stuff, I hated the scratch sound it gave my violin.
But when I left school and ditched regular practise and began just doing gigs on weekends, I found that I have to rosin my bow every gig.
I should be shot too as I've neglected to clean my cheap pos regetti after use, and now i have a horrible black rosin stain across my top :(
rosin addiction
rosin addiction
We've been discussing the use of rosin a few times in the past. Now: ever seen a classical violinist applying extra rosin on his bow before jumping into the final part of a violin concerto? I've never seen such....
In ITM-circles there seems to be a real rosin addiction though. My luthier once told me,when I wanted to have him rehair my bow because I had to use more and more rosin: your bowhair is OK, use l e s s rosin!
So: why do so many ITM-players over the world use so much rosin? Is ITM 'asking' for more rosin than classical styles?
Or is it perhaps a method to cover up a sloppy technique, is it a quest for a more gravelly sound or is it simply the trap I fell in when using more and more?
Why do I ask all this? Sometimes I am using too little.....; what is your trick to decide whether it is time to put some on?
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by Henk Bos
Re: rosin addiction
Never been much of a mystery to me. I can feel when the bow begins to loose its bite on the strings. I agree though, many fiddlers use more rosin than needed.
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: rosin addiction
When the plume of dust rising from my bridge clears enough for me to see through it...... I apply more rosin
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by tulloch
Re: rosin addiction
...Only kidding, sometimes I go for days without applying, then I need it and can't find it becasue I left it on my filing cabinet. Then I have to use a tiny chunk left from the last time I dropped it on the kitchen floor.
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by tulloch
Re: rosin addiction
Never use it meself.
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by maxF
Re: rosin addiction
Depends on the crowd you travel in I suppose... I use very little However, I was in Ennis with Kerri a while back and I saw a great fiddler furiously rubbing the bow with rosin as if tree sap was going out of style. dust everywhere. minutes went on and the application continued. i was starting to get concerned. Finally it stopped and a great tune ensued.
Then out of the blue kerri says... "so that settles it."
myself "what?"...
kerri - "i've always wondered if there was a state of *too much rosin*... "
so there you have it.
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by searai
Re: rosin addiction
Also depends on your bow. With my pernambuco bow, I apply a little rosin every time I play. (Which, in the case of that bow, is about every other day.) With my Incredibow, I rosin it about once a week, or when I develop "dead" spots or it squeaks on the open E. How much rosin I apply to that bow depends on the degree of "deadness" I've heard.
However, I don't generally rosin any bow heavily; I start light and add more as needed to get the sound I want. I happen not to like the heavily scratchy sound, at least not from my own fiddle.
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by sara g
Re: rosin addiction
It does seem for some folks to be like a billiard player thoughtfully chalking the cue as he looks over the table, or a laborer rolling up sleeves, spitting in the palms and rubbing them together. A ritual that signifies one's about to get down to business.
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by fidkid
Re: rosin addiction
No need for much rosin, assuming the bow is in good nick. I think the over-use is to compensate for the muck and film of grease accumulated on the bow hair (often through holding the bow away from the frog). A snow-white belly may be traditional, but it only acts as grinding paste when you try to clean it off.
Jim
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: rosin addiction
Fidkid, you got that one right. Part of the old get-settled routine for a lot of people, I think. Used to be for me too, before I started paying closer attention to how I sounded.
Ironically, this same subject came up today on a music list I'm on. One very experienced Irish fiddler mentioned that he used to be of the just-enough-rosin-to-get-good-sound school, but now after playing with a lot of Cape Breton fiddlers he is using much more rosin. He finds it gives him more precise control over the fine details of his sound. He does report, though, that he cleans the excess off of his fiddle every night to prevent the fiddle from developing a tinny sound.
YMMV, I guess!
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by sara g
Re: rosin addiction
It's also good in helping plectrum players hold onto their picks.
A bit of rosin on the pick-holding fingers and the little thing is glued up for a rollicking set of pickin'. I just learned this from a fellow who had been constantly sucking on peppermints so he could touch them and glue his pick in place with the sugar.
It seems that American old-time players also often like to play in the rosin cloud ...
stv
http://www.cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: rosin addiction
One of the things classical players learn to do is change bow direction with no discernable change to the sound. This is catagorically not what diddlers do. Crunch = rosin.
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: rosin addiction
Eh, depends, Michael. I can get a nice crisp little crunch by using some downward pressure of my forefinger on the bow stick. Granted some rosin is necessary to accomplish it, but not loads of it unless I've been neglecting my bow and haven't rehaired it since dirt was new. But then my bow tends to a slightly scratchy sound anyway, which may give me a leg up on getting the crunch.
# Posted on June 8th 2005 by sara g
Re: rosin addiction
"Graunch" --- lovely word! Nicely onomatopoeic.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by sara g
Re: rosin addiction
Was listening to a scottish fiddler the other day and thinking - it's amazing the variety and beauty of the schreeches/grunts/just plain weird sounds that the fiddle can make. The proper little grunt at the right time is like the icing on the cake in certain tunes.
Now as for making these fiddle-grunts (graunches?)... I imagine there is as much variety in the how-tos of the sound as in the sounds themself. Anyone want to share some good graunch-techniques?
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by searai
Re: rosin addiction
I don't know if its a good "graunch technique", but here's what I do: a combination of applying pressure with the forefinger on the bow and playing in the bottom middle of the bow -- what I get is (at least in my ear) a nice scritchy sound. Its a little crunchy and also scratchy. Its difficult to describe in words. Anyway, this can be done in a roll, a triplet, or at the beginning of any note. Its nice as a way to emphasize an important ONE beat of a phrase.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by tacoman
Re: rosin addiction
"...change bow direction with no discernable change to the sound... " They make the bow travel in small arc when they get to the end of the bow just before changing direction. Same thing when they get to the heel. Looks like drawing a slim figure-of-eight if you were to view the whole thing from above.
Jim
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: rosin addiction
...and diddlers can safely do that too in a slow air.
Jim
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: rosin addiction
Thanks Jim. I always wondered how that is done.
Concerning Rosin.
I like Fidkid's observation. It has a ritual air over it.
I tend to apply more rosin, the louder the session gets. Probably all in my head, as I have a quiet fiddle and a too-light bow. My fiddlemaker tells me wiping the fiddle off after every session cannot be stressed enough.
Good thread this.
Snorre
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by snorre
Re: rosin addiction
Thanks for all your reactions! Gives me lots of new thoughts about the subject.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Henk Bos
Re: rosin addiction
Another key to a good controlled graunch is bowing in that sweet spot very near the bridge. Paddy Canny is the master at targeting that narrow spot.
As far as pressure with the forefinger, I try to do it with more of a wrist rotation, almost like turning a door knob. I find quicker response and better control that way. For me anyway.
Ken
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: rosin addiction
Sometimes too much rosin on the bow willl make it slip like too little will and so I always carry an old toothbrush to gently brush away the excess ....slightly loosen the bow hair first.
This works for me.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: rosin addiction - use on the plectrum
Years ago ( pauses to knock the dottle out of his mearschum on the hob ) a friend of mine was playing both fiddle and mandolin, and found, like stv culchie has mentioned, that some rosin on the thumb end of the plectrum gave a firmer grip, and kept a 35mm film canister of the stuff, finely ground, in his mando case. Said friend was a bit wild and wooly, not to say casually dressed. Came the time the boys in blue stopped him and asked to see inside his case...........
"Wot's this then ?'.
"Smells a bit funny to me Sarge.....".
"Doesn't turn my tongue numb, though....".
Took him a while to talk his way out of that one......
I've also seen said friend rosin-up, then give the bow a couple of strokes through the air, like a fencer testing his blade, to remove the excess...."Have at thee, sirra !...".
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: rosin addiction
G Pete sez: "Came the time the boys in blue stopped him and asked to see inside his case...........
"Wot's this then ?'.
"Smells a bit funny to me Sarge.....".
"Doesn't turn my tongue numb, though....".
Took him a while to talk his way out of that one......"
If one of 'em had tried to hoover a bit up a nostril the talking his way out of it would have been shortened by quite a bit.
Gaaaah, what an image...
stv
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: rosin addiction
If you can see rosin on the string you shouldn't really need to apply much to the bow, not more than one or two swipes, anyway.
Trevor
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: rosin addiction
Way back in my school days when I practised almost daily, I never used to rosin my bow at all, I rarely used the stuff, I hated the scratch sound it gave my violin.
But when I left school and ditched regular practise and began just doing gigs on weekends, I found that I have to rosin my bow every gig.
I should be shot too as I've neglected to clean my cheap pos regetti after use, and now i have a horrible black rosin stain across my top :(
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Leddivah