I've noticed how "traditionalists" have been playing a big role in what is acceptable and what is not. This is not just in "ITM" but all types of music, ie Scottish, where the Bagpipes are stressed as an instrument having to play bagpipe music, the attitude should be that it is an instrument to play music full stop.
And for example, Silly Wizard were given a hard time for having an electric bassist, but they didn't care.
I see how "traditionalists" want to perserve the Tradition, but in order for it to evolve. new elements have to be introduced.
What are everybodys views on this?
Please Discuss.
I think nobody has the right to say how someone should play. We all have our own unique style that have grown out of different influences. Whether it be Michael Coleman or Moving hearts you want to play like should be up to that person. If someone doesnt like it they dont have to listen to it----this is just my view on this matter
The key is in what is acceptable to whom? Anybody is free to define what is acceptable to themselves personally, including traditionalists. And everybody else is free to ignore this entirely and go and buy Silly Wizard recordings if they want to.
It's a bit impractical to say what attitudes "should be", unless you're a religious leader.
Traditionalists are important in reminding us where we came from. It is then up to us whether we want to stick with the tradition or step out on our own in new directions. Traditionalists and those moving in new directions both have an important role to play--no tradition and we lose our way, no new directions and we become stagnant.
Balance is the key.
Why does it have to be a binary, either/or? I would say traditionalism is both good and bad, depending on the aspect of it you're dealing with. Hidebound insistence that the tunes should never ever change and can only be played a certain way is bad, because if you stop growing you're dead. A rich heritage that tells you where you came from and how it used to be done is good, because it gives you a foundation to work from.
I think traditionalism is good, bad, and indifferent all at once. It covers the entire spectrum, as any living thing does.
Traditions evolve over time. Mandolin is a relative newcomer to ITM. I suppose, depending on how traditional some traditionalists are, they may balk at the mandolin's presence in the music today. Some traditionalists don't like the use of guitar in ITM. Some traditionalists may dislike all instruments in ITM except the harp, which started it all. Such attitudes don't help the music or anyone who plays it and should be ignored, IMO. Oh, by the way, I'm usually a lurker here...hi, everybody.
Zookman: "...the Bagpipes are stressed as an instrument having to play bagpipe music..."
If you listen to the repertoires of many pipe bands today, they contain, in additional to traditional GHP music, a great number of modern tunes and tunes borrowed from other traditions (including Western Classical and Irish). Most tunes are, by necessity, specially adapted for the bagpipes, due to the limited range of the instrument (an octave and a note) - which, one might say, turns it into 'bagpipe music'. But to my ears, the bagpipe world is quite forward thinking.
P.S. I do not play the bagpipes - neither do I have any vested interest in any pipe band or associated organisation.
If you play tuba and want to play tunes in a hybrid Irish/Scottish/Basque style, go for it Sparky. In fact, I'll want to have a listen.
But I reserve the right to become "purist" on demand. History informs. It's a bit ironic, but I'm prone to draw the most criticism from "traditionalists" not when I'm doing something like playing hybrid sytles on tuba (or something), but rather when I'm playing straight purist in a tradition with which they are unfamiliar. Tradition changes with time and place, but most "traditionalists" lock onto some idea of "The Music" with a laser narrow focus and if they were in control we'd all still be banging on rocks and logs with only the approved rhythms.
But in "Real Life" even the same player will adopt different styles depending on the time and place. How you play in the kitchen for Ma and the dogs is different from how you play for a social dance is different from how you play by yourself out in the barn. The tradition is a vast spectrum, even within the range of a single musician.
So I have two beefs with the "traditionalists," the first being the noted tendency to control and lock down the music to whatever their view of "tradition" is, and the second is that they only rarely have an accurate idea of the tradition in the first place and the irony is further hightened when the particular "traditionalist" is preserving a "tradition" that I know only arose during my own lifetime and is thus quite modern.
I don't like guitar in Irish dance music, not because of a sense of tradition, but simply because I don't think it suits (I think it's a dandy harp alternative though). I don't like harp in Irish dance music either and wish the harpers would concentrate more on rebuiliding a true harp tradtition instead of learning how to play fiddle ornaments. Its a Bardic instrument well suited to that tradition and is simply out of place in a session. Synthesizers, on the other hand, can fit right in.
But, a)modern (within the last few centuries) dance music isn't the only kind of Irish music and b)what the hell this has to do with what Silly Wizard, Flook or you play is beyond me.
Long live tradition. Long live music. A pox on "The Music."
I'm from a country where we've lost our musical traditions, and I think roots are important , everebody wants to be from somewhere with something specific. Things and music have to go their way, and it's important that people remind us where it comes from, and it's also important that other people brings all those things in their words and music, if they do it with a traditionnal base, it means that the tradition is important in their mind. If you look to Britanny (la Bretagne), they are different from all the others by their music and the way they teach it to their children. I met some of those young guys from britanny, they're really in their century with the music of their country.
Not easy to find the right words (the english ones and when you're discussing about something we don't have anymore)
enjoy yourselves playing
As the Irish harpers have lost their tradition. Noboby here is disputing the value of tradition. The question is, once you've got it, what do you do with it?
Its an interesting topic and one with no right answers.
A 90 year old is going to have a wayyy different view of traditional irish music than I am. For example guitar & zouks sound the most natural thing in a session to me. In fact, I think a session loses something without a good backer (IMHO).
But Ive friends who've been playing years and years who almost faint when someone comes in with a guitar/zouk or starts a Flook! tune or something. Would make me laugh if it wasnt such a serious issue. ie in a city with hardly any trad players, we are all so different in our tastes that if we play together then non of us are entirley happy or think that its a blinding session.
(using the media-friendly sense of the term schizophrenic, not the medical - then I would be in trouble --- the shallow media usage is unsympathetic and way off target, but forgive me while I hijack it)
There is a need, nay, a requirement, not just in Irish music, but the various other recently disenterred or even redefined forms of European Music, to keep the sound of the music pure. For example, CCE promotes (among many other things) this notion.
Most dominant Pan-American and Australasian cultures are based on some white European model. My guess is that Irish sessions are the wee bit of that which we, were we to live there (in US or OZ), obsess about.
Hypermarkets, out-of-town malls, strips as they are known in US, every town centre looking exactly the same with their multinational companies occupying prime high street spots....from Ovieda to Galway to Seejithorpe to Gdynia to Ierapetra. These places all sound different, exotic, but the town centres, if not yet, will soon become indistinguishable.
That's why - or one reason why - people retreat into listening to and analysing and subsequently needlessly falling out over how their session is doing, what can they do about it, fix it make it a good little session again.
Politically, there's nothing left up for grabs. It's done, taken care of by the politicos...those people who seem to arise from nowhere, but who, when you think back to your schoolclass, were the ones who were always there....
As for mixing new stuff with the old....well, work away, trolley folk, just so long as I can stay in my little trad bubble. I hear all the Global fusion stuff - cut and paste what you want, wheh-hoh, my guess is it won't last, it's faffing about with unrelated idioms, whereas the Pure Drop is what keeps us rooted.
So - Traditionalism? Please allow me to be its token ogre...grrr.
Good or Bad? WTF's that supposed to mean? Good or bad for whom? what? for the tradition? for the supermarket lifestyle popheads?
To be brutally frank, whether Silly Wizard acquires another bassist or decides to embark upon the acquisitiion of a xylophone player, is of paltry significance to grander questions you alluded to.
Yes Dow and you;
a) Play the Cittern
b) Play the English Concertina
and
c) accidently started that mad Lunasa tune the Windbroke at a session the other day even though noone had played it before hand and even though you *hate* it because its to modern!!!
Dont talk to me about traditionalism Dow! hahahah!
Jazz shmaz, if its good enough for Brian Finnegan, Diarmad Moyihan, Tola Custy, Ed boyd, then its good enough for me.
Jack! Oh Jackkk! I am slagging Dow about his english concertina and thought you may want to join in!
So I think traditionalism can be good and it can be bad. I think it's good if it stops people from playing syncopated jazz "cuts". I think it's bad if people become trad extremists like Jack who look down on instruments like the english concertina for no apparent reason, and who shoot people down for playing a wrong note in their session.
Dow, whatever you say, whereever life takes you, whatever happens - you still started the Winbroke in a session and I will *never* let you forget it.
Anyone who doesnt know the Winbroke its a very jazzy and syncopated tune!
No that's that other tune - Trip To Herve's, with the stupid last few bars I always sing along to loudly and in a really exaggerated way, and make gestures as if I was sticking my fingers down my throat to make myself sick.
If you two really actually *aren't* secretly married - and I'm still suspicious you are - you're ideally suited. You could just completely bypass the first fifteen years, save all that expense and effort and get there so much more efficiently than everyone else.
Tish, Do I detect a little bit of Jealousy maybe? Do you secretly fancy Dow by any chance He is a bit of a catch altho he has cr*p taste in tunes and he plays english concertina
Talk about a hijacked thread - but very entertaining.
Dow, Beebs must be madly in love if she's going as far as the other side of the world to get away!
Oh and BTW if you do swallow all those pills can I have your Basil when you're gone?
Donough I'm afraid I can't allow my Basil and your Niamh to be together. Did you see the way Niamh was looking at him? She's such a slut! Good catch tho'
"You could just completely bypass the first fifteen years, save all that expense and effort and get there so much more efficiently than everyone else."
Reminds me of the Lewis Gizzard line:
"The next time feel like getting married I'm just going to find a woman I don't like and buy her a house."
Wait till Niamh sees my new guitar. It'll be all over between her and Basil for sure.
KFG, your quote also reminds me of the baddie in the Asterix cartoons on seeing Asterix's ship on the horizon, when his sidekick asks what they're going to do next - "Sink ourselves. The end result will be the same and it will save many blows."
Hang on Tish is your guitar male or female and has it got a name.
Dow, I never realised that Niamh was ogling at Basil. I thought he was just looking strangely at me!
Oh yeah -I forgot to put in the accent
Youre right about a hijack Donogh - I wont be able to check much for about 2 months (Forum sighs with relief) and then youse can all get back to talking about music or something normal instead of having to put up with me and Dow talking al la 'little Britain & the young ones'.....
Come on, don't take this off the topic.
When the bagpipes were invented the first person made up a tune, then the second person made up a similar tune using the same set of rules, this person was the "traditionalist". Then a third person made up a tune not using the same set of rules but out of his own imagination. This was the "rebel. Then a fourth person came and copied the rebel that person became a traditionalist etc... So what we now know as pure traditional music has actually evolved this way and should always be allowed to evolve.
If music doesn't evolve it's in danger of becoming a minority interest and losing touch with the new generations, this does not mean it's selling out to fashion but evolving naturally.
Just because it was played like that then it doesn't mean it should be always played like that. People say, you can't put a grace not there, you can't slide etc... but you can, and why not? You can and people have and it sounds great.
It's not just with the famous pipes; the fiddle is considered a trad instrument now but it was an import from europe with a classical repertoire from Europe.
What makes Tradition? Tradition is when you have a pressure group who decide to formalize certain characteristics of musical styles that have been in excistence for an indeterminate period of time. This is done for thebest reasons and is good to have a bass line for any, but if and when this stifles creativity and diversity, it is questionable how useful it is.
Wow that was serious stuff Zookman. Does that mean that playtime is over for Beebs, Dow and Tish.
Anyway it's hard to say what is off topic when a topic evolves over a period of time - bit like the tradition eh!!
I appreciate the point you're making Zookman. Music, like anything else, will evolve not because it has to, but because it just *does*. Fair enough. But what I posited was that because we nowadays live in a mass-media, globalised, multicultural world, we are in danger of losing the pure essence of the music altogether. This fear is tempered by knowing that many people on this board refute the notion that our music is "museum music" and is a vibrant living phenomenon. So I guess it's knowing where the boundaries are. My aforementioned "schizophrenia" comes from a desire to keep a strong body of the tradition healthy and fertile, yet be able to accept the fact that eg the Afro-Celt Sound System might be looking for a new marimbas player. It's only through having a strong healthy "base", as it were, of the tradition, can we be prepared to accept these new-fangled innovations running alongside the "real, sorry, reel stuff".....
....that said, I still don't like shakey eggs at our session.....
I promise you, Philip, that Irish music is already, and will almost certainly remain, a minority interest. No matter how pure or trendy the drops might be! Any artist that I can recall in my 50 year lifetime, who has tried to take traditional music and break into the mainstream with it has either been a brief novelty, not very successful or ended up simply going mainstream.
As for evolution - try and stop it! Of course it has always been the ongoing process of traditions. As for revolution - I don't want that simply because I like the music as it is and feel no need for big changes. Neither do I want to stop the changes that naturally occur (a bit of guitar backing is nice sometimes, or a jazzy tune). However these changes don't need to be forced or engineered in order to keep the music relevant. In fact, it's the ones that are the least engineered which probably have the most lasting influence.
What has Irish music survived so far?
Here's a partial list (not meant to be in any order):
British colonialism
mass emigration
CCE
the famine
sectarianism
purists
politics
sessions
innovators
The Public Dance Halls Act
the music hall
the Catholic church
The Pogues
country and western
the civil war
Riverdance
complete indifference
the folk revival
fusion with just about everything
this forum
You might also say these are among the things which have contributed to it. They are that, too.
Remember I am from the generation which was wildly excited by innovators like the Bothy Band and the whole folk rock thing. It's interesting that most of these artists had a huge respect for tradition, and in many cases were pretty obsessed with it, in spite of presenting it in a way that was bang up to date.
Taking our cue from our "heroes" many of us began to look deeper into traditions, too, if we weren't already a part of them. And for some of us, our tastes evolved over the years more toward the "pure drop" side of things. Perhaps this will help some of the younger members to understand how musical tastes (which is all we're really talking about) can evolve in many directions.
Isn't it OK to play new tunes on trad instruments?
Or trad tunes on new instruments (midi anglo-concertina comes to mind) as long as it keeps either the tunes or the instruments being played/seen in public.
I don't think there's any good or bad about it. it's too subjective.
People complain about bouzoukis, guitars and bass guitars; even saxophones are creeping into the odd session over here.
What I'm wondering is, as we get older, will those of us who like to think we're open to progressive music begin to gripe when sessions are over-run with synths, trumpets, djembes and rainsticks? It's the "turn that crap down" syndrome; we'll be just like our parents.
Of course it's "OK" geoff, to play new tunes on trad instruments etc - but there's no need to do it in the name of keeping it before the public, in my opinion. If you think that, then maybe you feel Irish music needs a saviour, or at least an image update. I don't think it does. It seems to be attracting young people quite well. It'll never be everybodies' cup of tea, and why should it. Play it how you want to because that's how you want to play it, not for dubious promotional reasons.
I wonder what would happen if we applied chaos theory to Irish music. Would we be able to draw a Mandelbrot set of tunes, thus demonstrating that reels had self-similarity on (or in) different scales? Are we heading for a strange attractor?
Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
I've noticed how "traditionalists" have been playing a big role in what is acceptable and what is not. This is not just in "ITM" but all types of music, ie Scottish, where the Bagpipes are stressed as an instrument having to play bagpipe music, the attitude should be that it is an instrument to play music full stop.
And for example, Silly Wizard were given a hard time for having an electric bassist, but they didn't care.
I see how "traditionalists" want to perserve the Tradition, but in order for it to evolve. new elements have to be introduced.
What are everybodys views on this?
Please Discuss.
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by ecidralla
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
I think nobody has the right to say how someone should play. We all have our own unique style that have grown out of different influences. Whether it be Michael Coleman or Moving hearts you want to play like should be up to that person. If someone doesnt like it they dont have to listen to it----this is just my view on this matter
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by eurbanjo
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
The key is in what is acceptable to whom? Anybody is free to define what is acceptable to themselves personally, including traditionalists. And everybody else is free to ignore this entirely and go and buy Silly Wizard recordings if they want to.
It's a bit impractical to say what attitudes "should be", unless you're a religious leader.
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by grego
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
... or, put it another way: what 23mice said
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by grego
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Traditionalists are important in reminding us where we came from. It is then up to us whether we want to stick with the tradition or step out on our own in new directions. Traditionalists and those moving in new directions both have an important role to play--no tradition and we lose our way, no new directions and we become stagnant.
Balance is the key.
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Why does it have to be a binary, either/or? I would say traditionalism is both good and bad, depending on the aspect of it you're dealing with. Hidebound insistence that the tunes should never ever change and can only be played a certain way is bad, because if you stop growing you're dead. A rich heritage that tells you where you came from and how it used to be done is good, because it gives you a foundation to work from.
I think traditionalism is good, bad, and indifferent all at once. It covers the entire spectrum, as any living thing does.
Or, in a nutshell: what Al said. ;)
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by sara g
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Traditions evolve over time. Mandolin is a relative newcomer to ITM. I suppose, depending on how traditional some traditionalists are, they may balk at the mandolin's presence in the music today. Some traditionalists don't like the use of guitar in ITM. Some traditionalists may dislike all instruments in ITM except the harp, which started it all. Such attitudes don't help the music or anyone who plays it and should be ignored, IMO. Oh, by the way, I'm usually a lurker here...hi, everybody.
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by mandolinann
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Zookman: "...the Bagpipes are stressed as an instrument having to play bagpipe music..."
If you listen to the repertoires of many pipe bands today, they contain, in additional to traditional GHP music, a great number of modern tunes and tunes borrowed from other traditions (including Western Classical and Irish). Most tunes are, by necessity, specially adapted for the bagpipes, due to the limited range of the instrument (an octave and a note) - which, one might say, turns it into 'bagpipe music'. But to my ears, the bagpipe world is quite forward thinking.
P.S. I do not play the bagpipes - neither do I have any vested interest in any pipe band or associated organisation.
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
<AOL>Me Too!</AOL>
If you play tuba and want to play tunes in a hybrid Irish/Scottish/Basque style, go for it Sparky. In fact, I'll want to have a listen.
But I reserve the right to become "purist" on demand. History informs. It's a bit ironic, but I'm prone to draw the most criticism from "traditionalists" not when I'm doing something like playing hybrid sytles on tuba (or something), but rather when I'm playing straight purist in a tradition with which they are unfamiliar. Tradition changes with time and place, but most "traditionalists" lock onto some idea of "The Music" with a laser narrow focus and if they were in control we'd all still be banging on rocks and logs with only the approved rhythms.
But in "Real Life" even the same player will adopt different styles depending on the time and place. How you play in the kitchen for Ma and the dogs is different from how you play for a social dance is different from how you play by yourself out in the barn. The tradition is a vast spectrum, even within the range of a single musician.
So I have two beefs with the "traditionalists," the first being the noted tendency to control and lock down the music to whatever their view of "tradition" is, and the second is that they only rarely have an accurate idea of the tradition in the first place and the irony is further hightened when the particular "traditionalist" is preserving a "tradition" that I know only arose during my own lifetime and is thus quite modern.
I don't like guitar in Irish dance music, not because of a sense of tradition, but simply because I don't think it suits (I think it's a dandy harp alternative though). I don't like harp in Irish dance music either and wish the harpers would concentrate more on rebuiliding a true harp tradtition instead of learning how to play fiddle ornaments. Its a Bardic instrument well suited to that tradition and is simply out of place in a session. Synthesizers, on the other hand, can fit right in.
But, a)modern (within the last few centuries) dance music isn't the only kind of Irish music and b)what the hell this has to do with what Silly Wizard, Flook or you play is beyond me.
Long live tradition. Long live music. A pox on "The Music."
KFG
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by KFG
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
I'm from a country where we've lost our musical traditions, and I think roots are important , everebody wants to be from somewhere with something specific. Things and music have to go their way, and it's important that people remind us where it comes from, and it's also important that other people brings all those things in their words and music, if they do it with a traditionnal base, it means that the tradition is important in their mind. If you look to Britanny (la Bretagne), they are different from all the others by their music and the way they teach it to their children. I met some of those young guys from britanny, they're really in their century with the music of their country.
Not easy to find the right words (the english ones and when you're discussing about something we don't have anymore)
enjoy yourselves playing
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by georges bij
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
As the Irish harpers have lost their tradition. Noboby here is disputing the value of tradition. The question is, once you've got it, what do you do with it?
KFG
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by KFG
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Each to their own, me thinks.
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Its an interesting topic and one with no right answers.
A 90 year old is going to have a wayyy different view of traditional irish music than I am. For example guitar & zouks sound the most natural thing in a session to me. In fact, I think a session loses something without a good backer (IMHO).
But Ive friends who've been playing years and years who almost faint when someone comes in with a guitar/zouk or starts a Flook! tune or something. Would make me laugh if it wasnt such a serious issue. ie in a city with hardly any trad players, we are all so different in our tastes that if we play together then non of us are entirley happy or think that its a blinding session.
# Posted on May 26th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Hey bb - I'm not 90 just yet!
My view is deliberately schizophrenic
(using the media-friendly sense of the term schizophrenic, not the medical - then I would be in trouble --- the shallow media usage is unsympathetic and way off target, but forgive me while I hijack it)
There is a need, nay, a requirement, not just in Irish music, but the various other recently disenterred or even redefined forms of European Music, to keep the sound of the music pure. For example, CCE promotes (among many other things) this notion.
Most dominant Pan-American and Australasian cultures are based on some white European model. My guess is that Irish sessions are the wee bit of that which we, were we to live there (in US or OZ), obsess about.
Hypermarkets, out-of-town malls, strips as they are known in US, every town centre looking exactly the same with their multinational companies occupying prime high street spots....from Ovieda to Galway to Seejithorpe to Gdynia to Ierapetra. These places all sound different, exotic, but the town centres, if not yet, will soon become indistinguishable.
That's why - or one reason why - people retreat into listening to and analysing and subsequently needlessly falling out over how their session is doing, what can they do about it, fix it make it a good little session again.
Politically, there's nothing left up for grabs. It's done, taken care of by the politicos...those people who seem to arise from nowhere, but who, when you think back to your schoolclass, were the ones who were always there....
As for mixing new stuff with the old....well, work away, trolley folk, just so long as I can stay in my little trad bubble. I hear all the Global fusion stuff - cut and paste what you want, wheh-hoh, my guess is it won't last, it's faffing about with unrelated idioms, whereas the Pure Drop is what keeps us rooted.
So - Traditionalism? Please allow me to be its token ogre...grrr.
Good or Bad? WTF's that supposed to mean? Good or bad for whom? what? for the tradition? for the supermarket lifestyle popheads?
To be brutally frank, whether Silly Wizard acquires another bassist or decides to embark upon the acquisitiion of a xylophone player, is of paltry significance to grander questions you alluded to.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Yeah, but would you have a mini heart attack if someone played a guitar at your session?
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
See bb? Listen to Danny he talks sense. Your Up Downey is global fusion trying to burst the trad bubble - I love it!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Yes Dow and you;
hahahah!
a) Play the Cittern
b) Play the English Concertina
and
c) accidently started that mad Lunasa tune the Windbroke at a session the other day even though noone had played it before hand and even though you *hate* it because its to modern!!!
Dont talk to me about traditionalism Dow!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Yeah I accidentally started it because you've brainwashed me and *burst my trad bubble*!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Your trad bubble was burst wayyy before that Dow, Tina, Basil - need I say more!?
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Yeah you have the cheek to look down on Tina when you're bursting everyone's trad bubble yourself by playing syncopated jazz
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Jazz shmaz, if its good enough for Brian Finnegan, Diarmad Moyihan, Tola Custy, Ed boyd, then its good enough for me.
Jack! Oh Jackkk! I am slagging Dow about his english concertina and thought you may want to join in!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Jack schmack. You need his help to gang up on me do you
I'm sure he's used up all his insults now anyway and just repeats himself 
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Isnt that your trick Dow?
Schappelle just got 20 yrs.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
So I think traditionalism can be good and it can be bad. I think it's good if it stops people from playing syncopated jazz "cuts". I think it's bad if people become trad extremists like Jack who look down on instruments like the english concertina for no apparent reason, and who shoot people down for playing a wrong note in their session.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
20 years? I feel so sorry for that poor woman. At least she didn't get the death penalty...
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Dow, whatever you say, whereever life takes you, whatever happens - you still started the Winbroke in a session and I will *never* let you forget it.
Anyone who doesnt know the Winbroke its a very jazzy and syncopated tune!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Now now children stop fighting
You'll give the Oz contingent a bad name, even though no-one else seems to be around right now.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Donough
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Anyway it's a great tune and its spelled Wind-broke as in.....
What is that smell?
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Donough
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Dunno, think I'd rather be dead than be in a balinese prison. It is very sad tho.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Yeah - I know how its spelt Donogh - But I hate the name and was secretly trying to change it.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Izzat that tune that was played the last time I was at the session where Dow looked like he was doing the Disco Heave?
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Tish
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
No that's that other tune - Trip To Herve's, with the stupid last few bars I always sing along to loudly and in a really exaggerated way, and make gestures as if I was sticking my fingers down my throat to make myself sick.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Oh no you're right, I think Windbroke *is* the one I do an exaggerated dance to with side-to-side head movements like someone out of an R&B video.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
nuh - he does that look every time I start a tune...
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
If you two really actually *aren't* secretly married - and I'm still suspicious you are - you're ideally suited. You could just completely bypass the first fifteen years, save all that expense and effort and get there so much more efficiently than everyone else.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Tish
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
You funny Tish... I laugh!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Tish, Do I detect a little bit of Jealousy maybe? Do you secretly fancy Dow by any chance
He is a bit of a catch altho he has cr*p taste in tunes and he plays english concertina
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Hands up who likes me! Because if you don't put your hands up then I'm going to kill myself by eating all of these pills. See, look, I'm eating them.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Beebs I know you're completely in love with me but there's no need to fight over me. You two girls just calm down. Put the knife away, Tish
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
"and the children will cry 'what happened to the peoples poet'?"
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
"The childwen will cwy..." hahaha!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Oh, what a choice - stick with Him Indoors wot plays Harvest Home on the cello, or leave him to pursue Dow ...
Nah, no jealousy beebs, just cynicism
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Tish
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Talk about a hijacked thread - but very entertaining.
Dow, Beebs must be madly in love if she's going as far as the other side of the world to get away!
Oh and BTW if you do swallow all those pills can I have your Basil when you're gone?
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Donough
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Donough I'm afraid I can't allow my Basil and your Niamh to be together. Did you see the way Niamh was looking at him? She's such a slut! Good catch tho'
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
"You could just completely bypass the first fifteen years, save all that expense and effort and get there so much more efficiently than everyone else."
Reminds me of the Lewis Gizzard line:
"The next time feel like getting married I'm just going to find a woman I don't like and buy her a house."
KFG
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by KFG
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Wait till Niamh sees my new guitar. It'll be all over between her and Basil for sure.
KFG, your quote also reminds me of the baddie in the Asterix cartoons on seeing Asterix's ship on the horizon, when his sidekick asks what they're going to do next - "Sink ourselves. The end result will be the same and it will save many blows."
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Tish
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Hang on Tish is your guitar male or female and has it got a name.
Dow, I never realised that Niamh was ogling at Basil. I thought he was just looking strangely at me!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Donough
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Oh yeah -I forgot to put in the accent
Youre right about a hijack Donogh - I wont be able to check much for about 2 months (Forum sighs with relief) and then youse can all get back to talking about music or something normal instead of having to put up with me and Dow talking al la 'little Britain & the young ones'.....
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by bb
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Come on, don't take this off the topic.
When the bagpipes were invented the first person made up a tune, then the second person made up a similar tune using the same set of rules, this person was the "traditionalist". Then a third person made up a tune not using the same set of rules but out of his own imagination. This was the "rebel. Then a fourth person came and copied the rebel that person became a traditionalist etc... So what we now know as pure traditional music has actually evolved this way and should always be allowed to evolve.
If music doesn't evolve it's in danger of becoming a minority interest and losing touch with the new generations, this does not mean it's selling out to fashion but evolving naturally.
Just because it was played like that then it doesn't mean it should be always played like that. People say, you can't put a grace not there, you can't slide etc... but you can, and why not? You can and people have and it sounds great.
It's not just with the famous pipes; the fiddle is considered a trad instrument now but it was an import from europe with a classical repertoire from Europe.
What makes Tradition? Tradition is when you have a pressure group who decide to formalize certain characteristics of musical styles that have been in excistence for an indeterminate period of time. This is done for thebest reasons and is good to have a bass line for any, but if and when this stifles creativity and diversity, it is questionable how useful it is.
Philip
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by ecidralla
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Wow that was serious stuff Zookman. Does that mean that playtime is over for Beebs, Dow and Tish.
Anyway it's hard to say what is off topic when a topic evolves over a period of time - bit like the tradition eh!!
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Donough
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
I appreciate the point you're making Zookman. Music, like anything else, will evolve not because it has to, but because it just *does*. Fair enough. But what I posited was that because we nowadays live in a mass-media, globalised, multicultural world, we are in danger of losing the pure essence of the music altogether. This fear is tempered by knowing that many people on this board refute the notion that our music is "museum music" and is a vibrant living phenomenon. So I guess it's knowing where the boundaries are. My aforementioned "schizophrenia" comes from a desire to keep a strong body of the tradition healthy and fertile, yet be able to accept the fact that eg the Afro-Celt Sound System might be looking for a new marimbas player. It's only through having a strong healthy "base", as it were, of the tradition, can we be prepared to accept these new-fangled innovations running alongside the "real, sorry, reel stuff".....
....that said, I still don't like shakey eggs at our session.....
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
I promise you, Philip, that Irish music is already, and will almost certainly remain, a minority interest. No matter how pure or trendy the drops might be! Any artist that I can recall in my 50 year lifetime, who has tried to take traditional music and break into the mainstream with it has either been a brief novelty, not very successful or ended up simply going mainstream.
As for evolution - try and stop it! Of course it has always been the ongoing process of traditions. As for revolution - I don't want that simply because I like the music as it is and feel no need for big changes. Neither do I want to stop the changes that naturally occur (a bit of guitar backing is nice sometimes, or a jazzy tune). However these changes don't need to be forced or engineered in order to keep the music relevant. In fact, it's the ones that are the least engineered which probably have the most lasting influence.
What has Irish music survived so far?
Here's a partial list (not meant to be in any order):
British colonialism
mass emigration
CCE
the famine
sectarianism
purists
politics
sessions
innovators
The Public Dance Halls Act
the music hall
the Catholic church
The Pogues
country and western
the civil war
Riverdance
complete indifference
the folk revival
fusion with just about everything
this forum
You might also say these are among the things which have contributed to it. They are that, too.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by kris
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
And another thing! (LOL)
Remember I am from the generation which was wildly excited by innovators like the Bothy Band and the whole folk rock thing. It's interesting that most of these artists had a huge respect for tradition, and in many cases were pretty obsessed with it, in spite of presenting it in a way that was bang up to date.
Taking our cue from our "heroes" many of us began to look deeper into traditions, too, if we weren't already a part of them. And for some of us, our tastes evolved over the years more toward the "pure drop" side of things. Perhaps this will help some of the younger members to understand how musical tastes (which is all we're really talking about) can evolve in many directions.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by kris
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Isn't it OK to play new tunes on trad instruments?
Or trad tunes on new instruments (midi anglo-concertina comes to mind) as long as it keeps either the tunes or the instruments being played/seen in public.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
I don't think there's any good or bad about it. it's too subjective.
People complain about bouzoukis, guitars and bass guitars; even saxophones are creeping into the odd session over here.
What I'm wondering is, as we get older, will those of us who like to think we're open to progressive music begin to gripe when sessions are over-run with synths, trumpets, djembes and rainsticks? It's the "turn that crap down" syndrome; we'll be just like our parents.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Of course it's "OK" geoff, to play new tunes on trad instruments etc - but there's no need to do it in the name of keeping it before the public, in my opinion. If you think that, then maybe you feel Irish music needs a saviour, or at least an image update. I don't think it does. It seems to be attracting young people quite well. It'll never be everybodies' cup of tea, and why should it. Play it how you want to because that's how you want to play it, not for dubious promotional reasons.
# Posted on May 27th 2005 by kris
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
I wonder what would happen if we applied chaos theory to Irish music. Would we be able to draw a Mandelbrot set of tunes, thus demonstrating that reels had self-similarity on (or in) different scales? Are we heading for a strange attractor?
# Posted on May 28th 2005 by pfft
Re: Traditionalism, Good or Bad?
Judging by recent posts on other threads, I think it depends on whether you see Nazism as good or bad.
# Posted on May 28th 2005 by bodhran bliss