So John Joe Kelly, who I listened to today, he is the one to blame for the "boom, boom, boom, boom," at the end of the line instead of a triplet or something.
Sorry, not for me. John Joe, if you inspired the imitators, you have a lot to answer for.
John Joe might be to some peoples taste, but the imitators, no, you can keep them.
Seriously, BB...and I know we've jested with each in the past, there's no problem with John Joe Kelly or any of the other good players. I wouldn't blame him(or them) for inspiring all these "bashers" who are going around. Most of them have never listened to a good bodhran player(that's part of their problem) and many will not even know who John Joe is.
In fact, I tried to encourage two of them to go and see John Joe when Flook last played in town but they never appeared. Some people are just happy in the midst of their own sh*t.
Oops, excuse the language.
John Joe is playing "a set of drums" or a snare drum behind jazzed up, or "esoteric" as I like to say, tunes. Being innovative, o.k.
The imitators do this behind normal tunes, and it is dreadful, it simply does not fit. If John Joe was playing like that at our session, I would be forced to have a quiet word, that is if Wotkey, the most inoffensive person you could meet, had not broken a guitar over his head. Wotkey is at the end of his tether with an imitator.
I realise that a lot of banjo players imitate Gerry O'Connor, and many are now playing bodhrans like John Joe. If there was a session with Liam oG, Gary Hastings, Tommy Peoples whatever, I presume John Joe could adapt, but the imitators cannot. And "boom, boom, boom,boom,boom" doesn't fit with "traditional" Irish tunes.
This is my opinion, not a criticism of John Joe, who I have only heard on "mini" downloads from the Flook site. I didn't like Jimi Hendrix, he tried to hard for me, but I could have listened to Rory Gallagher or someone like that.
As for Andy's "flamenco" style, I believe that a mandolin is designed for playing melodies, not strumming or "flamenco".
By the way Stefanpaz, there only is one bodhran lesson you can teach anyone, so it wouldn't be worth your while travelling. Plus, as there only is one lesson, I charge £500.
now yer just annoyin me. John Joe Kelly is a bleedin legend.
Syop blaming bad musicians on particular musicians. If some one is rubish on their instrument its because their rubish not because of who-evers styule they are taking from.
some of the worst musicians i have ever heard have been attempting a real traditional style!
JJK, quite an innovator, definitely changed drumming for a lot of folks. With little skinny tippers that look like pencils, holding the drumhead tightly most of the time, playing with only one end of the tipper, and more...
We were inundated with imitators for a long time and they weren't any fun at all. That seems to have abated, so maybe all those aspiring players who heard JJK at first have learned to listen to other, more traditional players as well and move on...
JJKs is not a style suited to everything, but it sure was common in sessions for a while.
Bliss, I reckon you're on the wind-up again...but just in case you aren't , here's a wee sample of the esteemed John Joe playing something that doesn't go "boom, boom, boom, boom".
So I guess you won't be one of his imitators, then?
If you don't like Andy Irvine's "flamenco" style in playing an instrument, just be glad he doesn't *sing* in the Flamenco tradition!!
Bliss, by "boom boom boom boom" are you talking about that sound that sounds like a sort of throbbing relentless techno beat that some session bodhran players use? If so then I heartily agree with you.
BB - sometimes you just havent a clue. Good bodhran players as we all know are very few and very very far between - John Joe is a total legend. Why dont you moan about someone who cant actually play. Phiddle is right on the money. Doesnt matter who you imitate. Some people have it - and some people just dont (tho they persit in playing anyway) - doesnt matter who you try and copy.
Yeah - and until you put something up on the mighty craic online then I dont rate your judgement at all. C'mon BB -show us your stuff - Mighty Craic, Mighty Craic. Right - I'm off to start a petiton.
Have you ever spoken with John Joe? In conversation he told me that his style of playing the bodhrán with the band was not traditional Irish music. I have also witnessed Mr. Kelly repeatedly emphasize to the participants of a workshop that when playing traditional Irish music in any setting one should not imitate his style as heard with Flook. He, in addition to the repeated counsel cited above, went on to demonstrate some traditional rhythm patterns. To my way of thinking John Joe has nothing to answer for and quite a bit of which to be proud. I think there are a good number of traditional musicians that agree with me as the “Top End”, as some have grown to call it, style of play has won many Fleadhs of late. From the little I know of this man being braggadocios is not in his nature.
The fact that others attempt to imitate, and way to often fail miserably, John Joe’s play should not bring one to blame him, and believe me I detest the “Bashers” that go “Boom, Boom, Boom” as much as anyone. However, in my mind blaming John Joe for this would be the same as blaming the owner of a swimming pool for the drowning of a person that climbed the locked eight foot fence to get into the pool. I think that if any are to blame for the proliferation of the “Bangers and Bashed” (not to be confused with that great Pub Grub meal that goes so well with a few, well ok a lot of, pints) it would be those that profit from the manufacture and sale of the “Tourist” grade bodhráns. I cringe and run for another TALL glass of whiskey when someone approaches me and informs me that they “play the bo-drum too”.
John Joe Kelly’s sense, and interpretation, of rhythm is astounding and dynamic all the while his timing impeccable. I can only hope that I can reach his level one day.
It is a terrible thing to realise that reading ability in the world is even worse that I thought.
I did not criticise JJK's playing, I blamed him possibly for the God awful imitators. As for "have I ever talked to him" I never heard of him until I came on this site, and have only heard the mini downloads of two tunes from a Flook album. I admit I do not follow the music scene closely.
And obviously I myself cannot be much good at playing, as I can't even work a computer.
Jim Troy - the track is called "Larry Get Out of the Bin" from the "Rubai" album. Brian Finnegan is playing flute on it.
...and the bad booming imitators... they're not exactly young geezers either - they're more likely to be trying to emulate John Bonham than John Joe Kelly in their quest for ultra-powerful and "driving" rhythm......driving session players nuts, more like..
I quote your first post; “…he is the one to blame for the “boom, boom, boom, boom” at the end of the line instead of a triplet or something.” This statement is hardly “possibly” blaming him for the God awful imitators. It is indeed blaming him for them. In my interpretation your second statement addressing John Joe directly hardly mitigates your first. I believe my ability to read is fine although I will admit to some knee jerk reactions at times.
That said you are certainly entitled to your opinion about John Joe’s playing and I agree his playing as heard in the Flook environment would not be appropriate in a traditional setting although some of his ornamentation works well when modestly applied. My enquiring as to whether or not you have ever spoken to the man was simply a way to introduce first hand knowledge of his statements as they relate to his playing of the bodhrán in the band environment versus a traditional setting. This was offered only in an attempt to offer you some comfort in the fact that if others have poorly imitated his play in traditional settings they have done so of their own accord and with out the counsel of the man himself. It was also offered so that others that may read this thread do not think that Mr. Kelly is attempting to subvert a part of traditional Irish music. I think you will agree that the tenor of your original post may be construed as eluding to this by some, albeit not directly stating such. I can assure you it was offered more in the interest of fair play than being argumentative.
On another note, so to speak, I would welcome hearing your playing of this most intriguing instrument (duck, impending incoming bodhrán insults). This is not a challenge, nor is it intended in any way other than a genuine interest in hearing the play of a person that seemingly has strong emotional ties to a genre of music that is very dear to me. I am of a mind that I will benefit from all that I meet, electronically or otherwise. This media called the Internet has opened great opportunities for people around the world to share talents and philosophies with out having to travel any further than their keyboard. I for one hope that you would offer your prospective as interpreted through your playing of the bodhrán to us all at some point.
John Joe Kelly is an excellent bodhrán player, and you can't deny that simple fact. The problem is that the imitators can't seem to tell the difference between playing in a band context and playing in a session. They hear great percussion which happens to be played on a bodhrán and immediately have aspirations to that style.
Flook are the first to admit that they don't play Traditional Irish Music; John Joe used to be a kit player before he began on the bodhrán, and he has brought much of his drumming background to his flamboyant bodhrán technique. However,he most definitely does not play in the same style at your bog-standard sessions, or at least he tones it down.
Anyone who tries to play top-end the whole time at a session needs their head examined.
Another point: John Joe isn't the first person ever to play in that style; as far as I'm concerned Damien Quinn was the first proponent. I remember him playing accomplished top-end in the early '90s. He was with a band Dónal Lunny had assembled for a TV programme on Channel 4 which, coincidentally, was called The Session.
Hi Bliss:
I think his wide range of percussion with the music being played is unique. I wouldn't call it trad, but maybe neo trad or some other intelligent sounding term. I'm for people doing what they want to do. I like Flook and his playing.
As I stated previously many times, my favorite bodhran player for many years has been Johnny McDonagh due to his relaxed, expressive style, even through fast, demanding sets.
Lissaniska - that did come out much harsher than it sounded in my head....Sometimes its hard to get across on this thing that you are taking the p*ss or slagging. I was in fact merely slagging BB as he loves to do to others all the time
Once you have learnt the bodhran, you need to remember the instruments limitations. I never suggested that John Joe actively encouraged imitators.
Unfortunately We are beset at the moment with an imitator, to traditional music, and I have sat and wondered "does he/she not realise that the drumming does not fit". Then I heard John Joe, and realised this is where the imitator got it from, and unlike JJK, does not realise that you cannot play a "drumming" rhythm all the time.
As for winning fleadhs, many, if not most, top class musicians wouldn't enter a fleadh. What is the point?
Bliss, I'm not sure what this guy sounds like, but for me bodhranist playing in an un-busy style fits in with the music better than the someone playing in an over-busy style - a full discussion on this topic is at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2008
Bliss, I agree with your points about JJK although I don't think he is necessarily to blame. Ed and I have had this discussion on other boards (peacefully) and my feeling is part of the problem is beginning players being led astray. Whenever some beginning player posts and asks for advice someone will invariably tell them to go and get a JJK CD, the implication being that this is what they should aspire towards.
My feeling is any beginner wanting to play in sessions should go and listen to players like McDonough, Kevin Conneff, etc. I would even stay away from Tommy Hayes at first. You have to walk before you can run.
This is not in any way slamming JJK, like Ed says I can only hope to be as good as he is. The problem is he does not play traditional music or in a traditional style, and people need to quit portraying him as someone to emulate if you want to play traditional music.
I concur with your feelings about Fleadh competition although one must agree that these competitions are adjudicated, in theory anyway, by traditional musicians, or keepers thereof, and it is by way of this adjudication that I contend that the “Top End” style has found its way into the realms of traditional Irish music. However I doubt that bodhrán play with the degree of ornamentation and rhythm variation such as is heard on Flook recordings is rewarded by these adjudicators. Great craic, thanks!
Greetings Rando,
Good to have your participation in this discussion. From what I have witnessed John Joe Kelly is perfectly capable of accompanying traditional Irish music on the bodhrán although I agree his playing with Flook, that which most beginners try to emulate unfortunately, is certainly not appropriate, in a traditional sense, for such accompaniment. I would venture a guess that at some point in the future Mr. Kelly’s name will be added to the list of the likes of Mssrs. McDonough and Conneff, to name but two. His play live and up close is nothing short of entrancing. In John Joe’s own words Mr. “Ringo” McDonough hs been his biggest influence.
Bliss:
I take it you are not an imitator then? or even influenced by another bodhrán player? I'd love to hear this unique style of yours.
Why do people on this site insist on analysing and criticising peoples music? I know this is a "discussion board" but it usually turns nasty when someone hits a nerve. More than likely the criticiser is nowhere near as good as the musician they are intent on slating, or moreso, they dont know the music (or musician) well enough to make a decent argument. No offence Bliss, but you are basing the whole John Jo kelly imitator thing on just hearing 3 or 4 mp3's?
why doesnt everyone chill and enjoy the music and stop making flighty comments that are based on absolutely nothing!
Bliss - i think this post is saturated now, and you've proved your supreme playing ability and knowledge again. how long before you crave more attention and post something else contraversial?
Lara, did you read your post, or indeed mine. All I did was "tongue in cheek" blame JJK for the "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom" imitators who are awful in an ordinary session, much as I blame Elvis Presley for awful Elvis impersonators. I did not criticise his playing.
I listened to the piece Jim put up, and there was JJK playing away at ITM, and very nice too. Remember, there is only so much you can do with a bodhran, and some people forget that. It sets the rhythm.
I may have been influenced by Peader Mercier and a brilliant player called Vinnie from Manchester, and yet I would be a bit more animated than those two. My biggest influence was in 1976 when a sergeant in the paras advised me to use one side of the stick. Eureka.
I would not claim to have a unique style, and if I was wrongly accused of judging JJK on a few mini-downloads, well I am now being judged by someone who has never, knowingly, heard me.
As for craving attention Stefanpaz, someone as multi-talented as my good humble modest self, craves protection from adoring fans. And I don't think you have heard me play either, even though you are spot on.
A last word. How many of you commenting on my playing actually play a bodhran. I mean I wouldn't give Tommy Peoples advice on playing the fiddle, which is much the same thing.
I don't think anyone has mentioned that Johnjoe won the All Ireland Multiple times.
His traditional play is very different from his stage play and in my opinion he's perfectly capable of using his experience and judgement to assess and adapt.
If it weren't for people like John Joe Kelly, the bodhran would not have had such a youth revival.
He has given it a new sound!
But then it was foolish of me to expect anyone on the session to be forward thinking and enjoy innovation.
cf. "I believe that a mandolin is designed for playing melodies, not strumming or "flamenco"."
Instruments are what you make of them! Not what the maker made them.
John Joe Kelly
John Joe Kelly
So John Joe Kelly, who I listened to today, he is the one to blame for the "boom, boom, boom, boom," at the end of the line instead of a triplet or something.
Sorry, not for me. John Joe, if you inspired the imitators, you have a lot to answer for.
John Joe might be to some peoples taste, but the imitators, no, you can keep them.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
Seriously, BB...and I know we've jested with each in the past, there's no problem with John Joe Kelly or any of the other good players. I wouldn't blame him(or them) for inspiring all these "bashers" who are going around. Most of them have never listened to a good bodhran player(that's part of their problem) and many will not even know who John Joe is.
In fact, I tried to encourage two of them to go and see John Joe when Flook last played in town but they never appeared. Some people are just happy in the midst of their own sh*t.
Oops, excuse the language.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: John Joe Kelly
You blame JJ Kelly for Boom Boom Boom???????????
You blame Andy Irvine for his "Flamenco style"????????
YOU ARE A GENIUS
I'm not being wound up - I am in awe.
Do you do lessons? - I will travel.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: John Joe Kelly
Oh dear. Have I been had?
I thought BB was being concilitory here and I responded accordingly.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: John Joe Kelly
John Joe is playing "a set of drums" or a snare drum behind jazzed up, or "esoteric" as I like to say, tunes. Being innovative, o.k.
The imitators do this behind normal tunes, and it is dreadful, it simply does not fit. If John Joe was playing like that at our session, I would be forced to have a quiet word, that is if Wotkey, the most inoffensive person you could meet, had not broken a guitar over his head. Wotkey is at the end of his tether with an imitator.
I realise that a lot of banjo players imitate Gerry O'Connor, and many are now playing bodhrans like John Joe. If there was a session with Liam oG, Gary Hastings, Tommy Peoples whatever, I presume John Joe could adapt, but the imitators cannot. And "boom, boom, boom,boom,boom" doesn't fit with "traditional" Irish tunes.
This is my opinion, not a criticism of John Joe, who I have only heard on "mini" downloads from the Flook site. I didn't like Jimi Hendrix, he tried to hard for me, but I could have listened to Rory Gallagher or someone like that.
As for Andy's "flamenco" style, I believe that a mandolin is designed for playing melodies, not strumming or "flamenco".
By the way Stefanpaz, there only is one bodhran lesson you can teach anyone, so it wouldn't be worth your while travelling. Plus, as there only is one lesson, I charge £500.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
I'll take 2 so.
**
BB - And I don't particularly like Andy Irvine's playing, too "Spanish flamenco" style for me....
GENIUS
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: John Joe Kelly
Oh, Andy is pretty good at playing melody when he likes. I prefer someone like Mick Moloney, though.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: John Joe Kelly
its time to stop criticising peoples style of playing, give it a break lads
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by no39
Re: John Joe Kelly
now yer just annoyin me. John Joe Kelly is a bleedin legend.
Syop blaming bad musicians on particular musicians. If some one is rubish on their instrument its because their rubish not because of who-evers styule they are taking from.
some of the worst musicians i have ever heard have been attempting a real traditional style!
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by phiddle
Re: John Joe Kelly
JJK, quite an innovator, definitely changed drumming for a lot of folks. With little skinny tippers that look like pencils, holding the drumhead tightly most of the time, playing with only one end of the tipper, and more...
We were inundated with imitators for a long time and they weren't any fun at all. That seems to have abated, so maybe all those aspiring players who heard JJK at first have learned to listen to other, more traditional players as well and move on...
JJKs is not a style suited to everything, but it sure was common in sessions for a while.
stv
www.cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: John Joe Kelly
Bliss, I reckon you're on the wind-up again...but just in case you aren't , here's a wee sample of the esteemed John Joe playing something that doesn't go "boom, boom, boom, boom".
So I guess you won't be one of his imitators, then?
If you don't like Andy Irvine's "flamenco" style in playing an instrument, just be glad he doesn't *sing* in the Flamenco tradition!!
...so here's the wee clip I was on about.
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/mp3/flook_john_joe_kelly_sample.mp3
Enjoy!!
Jim
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: John Joe Kelly
Bliss, by "boom boom boom boom" are you talking about that sound that sounds like a sort of throbbing relentless techno beat that some session bodhran players use? If so then I heartily agree with you.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: John Joe Kelly
I'm sorry but John Joe is far more subtle than that!!Bodhran bliss you must be envious listening to you talk.Let's hear what you can do then!!!
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by meri-lawes
Re: John Joe Kelly
BB - sometimes you just havent a clue. Good bodhran players as we all know are very few and very very far between - John Joe is a total legend. Why dont you moan about someone who cant actually play. Phiddle is right on the money. Doesnt matter who you imitate. Some people have it - and some people just dont (tho they persit in playing anyway) - doesnt matter who you try and copy.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by bb
Re: John Joe Kelly
ditto
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by lisaniska
Re: John Joe Kelly
Yeah - and until you put something up on the mighty craic online then I dont rate your judgement at all. C'mon BB -show us your stuff - Mighty Craic, Mighty Craic. Right - I'm off to start a petiton.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by bb
Re: John Joe Kelly
'bb' slow down
my dad says ''if you don't have a good word to say about someone, say nothing''
he maybe right
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by lisaniska
Re: John Joe Kelly
Greetings BB,
Have you ever spoken with John Joe? In conversation he told me that his style of playing the bodhrán with the band was not traditional Irish music. I have also witnessed Mr. Kelly repeatedly emphasize to the participants of a workshop that when playing traditional Irish music in any setting one should not imitate his style as heard with Flook. He, in addition to the repeated counsel cited above, went on to demonstrate some traditional rhythm patterns. To my way of thinking John Joe has nothing to answer for and quite a bit of which to be proud. I think there are a good number of traditional musicians that agree with me as the “Top End”, as some have grown to call it, style of play has won many Fleadhs of late. From the little I know of this man being braggadocios is not in his nature.
The fact that others attempt to imitate, and way to often fail miserably, John Joe’s play should not bring one to blame him, and believe me I detest the “Bashers” that go “Boom, Boom, Boom” as much as anyone. However, in my mind blaming John Joe for this would be the same as blaming the owner of a swimming pool for the drowning of a person that climbed the locked eight foot fence to get into the pool. I think that if any are to blame for the proliferation of the “Bangers and Bashed” (not to be confused with that great Pub Grub meal that goes so well with a few, well ok a lot of, pints) it would be those that profit from the manufacture and sale of the “Tourist” grade bodhráns. I cringe and run for another TALL glass of whiskey when someone approaches me and informs me that they “play the bo-drum too”.
John Joe Kelly’s sense, and interpretation, of rhythm is astounding and dynamic all the while his timing impeccable. I can only hope that I can reach his level one day.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by ejsant
Re: John Joe Kelly
It is a terrible thing to realise that reading ability in the world is even worse that I thought.
I did not criticise JJK's playing, I blamed him possibly for the God awful imitators. As for "have I ever talked to him" I never heard of him until I came on this site, and have only heard the mini downloads of two tunes from a Flook album. I admit I do not follow the music scene closely.
And obviously I myself cannot be much good at playing, as I can't even work a computer.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
By the way, S Club Seven, Westlife, The Spice Girls, Robbie Williams and Britney Speers are legends, if you follow my drift.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
I forgot about that other legend "Mr Blobby".
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
And Dow, that's exactly what I mean, although I am not familiar with the tern techno.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
Jim Troy - the track is called "Larry Get Out of the Bin" from the "Rubai" album. Brian Finnegan is playing flute on it.
...and the bad booming imitators... they're not exactly young geezers either - they're more likely to be trying to emulate John Bonham than John Joe Kelly in their quest for ultra-powerful and "driving" rhythm......driving session players nuts, more like..
Jim
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: John Joe Kelly
Greetings BB,
I quote your first post; “…he is the one to blame for the “boom, boom, boom, boom” at the end of the line instead of a triplet or something.” This statement is hardly “possibly” blaming him for the God awful imitators. It is indeed blaming him for them. In my interpretation your second statement addressing John Joe directly hardly mitigates your first. I believe my ability to read is fine although I will admit to some knee jerk reactions at times.
That said you are certainly entitled to your opinion about John Joe’s playing and I agree his playing as heard in the Flook environment would not be appropriate in a traditional setting although some of his ornamentation works well when modestly applied. My enquiring as to whether or not you have ever spoken to the man was simply a way to introduce first hand knowledge of his statements as they relate to his playing of the bodhrán in the band environment versus a traditional setting. This was offered only in an attempt to offer you some comfort in the fact that if others have poorly imitated his play in traditional settings they have done so of their own accord and with out the counsel of the man himself. It was also offered so that others that may read this thread do not think that Mr. Kelly is attempting to subvert a part of traditional Irish music. I think you will agree that the tenor of your original post may be construed as eluding to this by some, albeit not directly stating such. I can assure you it was offered more in the interest of fair play than being argumentative.
On another note, so to speak, I would welcome hearing your playing of this most intriguing instrument (duck, impending incoming bodhrán insults). This is not a challenge, nor is it intended in any way other than a genuine interest in hearing the play of a person that seemingly has strong emotional ties to a genre of music that is very dear to me. I am of a mind that I will benefit from all that I meet, electronically or otherwise. This media called the Internet has opened great opportunities for people around the world to share talents and philosophies with out having to travel any further than their keyboard. I for one hope that you would offer your prospective as interpreted through your playing of the bodhrán to us all at some point.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by ejsant
Re: John Joe Kelly
Speaking of "Boom, bang a bang", it's The Eurovision Song contest tonight!!!
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: John Joe Kelly
John Joe Kelly is an excellent bodhrán player, and you can't deny that simple fact. The problem is that the imitators can't seem to tell the difference between playing in a band context and playing in a session. They hear great percussion which happens to be played on a bodhrán and immediately have aspirations to that style.
Flook are the first to admit that they don't play Traditional Irish Music; John Joe used to be a kit player before he began on the bodhrán, and he has brought much of his drumming background to his flamboyant bodhrán technique. However,he most definitely does not play in the same style at your bog-standard sessions, or at least he tones it down.
Anyone who tries to play top-end the whole time at a session needs their head examined.
Another point: John Joe isn't the first person ever to play in that style; as far as I'm concerned Damien Quinn was the first proponent. I remember him playing accomplished top-end in the early '90s. He was with a band Dónal Lunny had assembled for a TV programme on Channel 4 which, coincidentally, was called The Session.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: John Joe Kelly
Hi Bliss:
I think his wide range of percussion with the music being played is unique. I wouldn't call it trad, but maybe neo trad or some other intelligent sounding term. I'm for people doing what they want to do. I like Flook and his playing.
As I stated previously many times, my favorite bodhran player for many years has been Johnny McDonagh due to his relaxed, expressive style, even through fast, demanding sets.
Bada boom bada bing!
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: John Joe Kelly
Lissaniska - that did come out much harsher than it sounded in my head....Sometimes its hard to get across on this thing that you are taking the p*ss or slagging. I was in fact merely slagging BB as he loves to do to others all the time
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by bb
Re: John Joe Kelly
David, are you sat watching Bland & Anodyne's entry for the Eurovision? Or are you having a bad session day or something?
Jim
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: John Joe Kelly
Ceol, I fully agree with your words about Johnny 'Ringo' Mc Donagh. Yet another of these clever geezers who can start a bar with a triplet!
Jim
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: John Joe Kelly
Once you have learnt the bodhran, you need to remember the instruments limitations. I never suggested that John Joe actively encouraged imitators.
Unfortunately We are beset at the moment with an imitator, to traditional music, and I have sat and wondered "does he/she not realise that the drumming does not fit". Then I heard John Joe, and realised this is where the imitator got it from, and unlike JJK, does not realise that you cannot play a "drumming" rhythm all the time.
As for winning fleadhs, many, if not most, top class musicians wouldn't enter a fleadh. What is the point?
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
Bliss, I'm not sure what this guy sounds like, but for me bodhranist playing in an un-busy style fits in with the music better than the someone playing in an over-busy style - a full discussion on this topic is at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2008
Jim
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: John Joe Kelly
Very interesting, but you can't have a best in the world. Even I only claim to be as good as anyone else who is highly rated.
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
Bliss, I agree with your points about JJK although I don't think he is necessarily to blame. Ed and I have had this discussion on other boards (peacefully) and my feeling is part of the problem is beginning players being led astray. Whenever some beginning player posts and asks for advice someone will invariably tell them to go and get a JJK CD, the implication being that this is what they should aspire towards.
My feeling is any beginner wanting to play in sessions should go and listen to players like McDonough, Kevin Conneff, etc. I would even stay away from Tommy Hayes at first. You have to walk before you can run.
This is not in any way slamming JJK, like Ed says I can only hope to be as good as he is. The problem is he does not play traditional music or in a traditional style, and people need to quit portraying him as someone to emulate if you want to play traditional music.
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by Rando
Re: John Joe Kelly
See, this thread wasn't controversial at all. most people agree, apart from the odd ranter at the start.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
Most people agree with a bodhran player?? Keep Dreaming
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by bb
Re: John Joe Kelly
Greetings BB,
I concur with your feelings about Fleadh competition although one must agree that these competitions are adjudicated, in theory anyway, by traditional musicians, or keepers thereof, and it is by way of this adjudication that I contend that the “Top End” style has found its way into the realms of traditional Irish music. However I doubt that bodhrán play with the degree of ornamentation and rhythm variation such as is heard on Flook recordings is rewarded by these adjudicators. Great craic, thanks!
Greetings Rando,
Good to have your participation in this discussion. From what I have witnessed John Joe Kelly is perfectly capable of accompanying traditional Irish music on the bodhrán although I agree his playing with Flook, that which most beginners try to emulate unfortunately, is certainly not appropriate, in a traditional sense, for such accompaniment. I would venture a guess that at some point in the future Mr. Kelly’s name will be added to the list of the likes of Mssrs. McDonough and Conneff, to name but two. His play live and up close is nothing short of entrancing. In John Joe’s own words Mr. “Ringo” McDonough hs been his biggest influence.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by ejsant
Re: John Joe Kelly
He cant be that bad if the best of the best keep hiring him and as drum player its amazing how busy he is
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by eurbanjo
Re: John Joe Kelly
Bliss:
I take it you are not an imitator then? or even influenced by another bodhrán player? I'd love to hear this unique style of yours.
Why do people on this site insist on analysing and criticising peoples music? I know this is a "discussion board" but it usually turns nasty when someone hits a nerve. More than likely the criticiser is nowhere near as good as the musician they are intent on slating, or moreso, they dont know the music (or musician) well enough to make a decent argument. No offence Bliss, but you are basing the whole John Jo kelly imitator thing on just hearing 3 or 4 mp3's?
why doesnt everyone chill and enjoy the music and stop making flighty comments that are based on absolutely nothing!
Laura x
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Britney Spears
Re: John Joe Kelly
I was heavily influenced by a great percussionist, Patrick Moore. Unfortunately, he plays the xylophone. :(
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: John Joe Kelly
Was he on "Stars in your eyes" too, Conan?
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: John Joe Kelly
Bliss - i think this post is saturated now, and you've proved your supreme playing ability and knowledge again. how long before you crave more attention and post something else contraversial?
The clock's ticking. Sorry for ranting.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: John Joe Kelly
ahhh - beat me to it Johnj.....
Hasn't he composed too?
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: John Joe Kelly
Well he's a big old guy; I suspect he has his own moon.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: John Joe Kelly
Lara, did you read your post, or indeed mine. All I did was "tongue in cheek" blame JJK for the "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom" imitators who are awful in an ordinary session, much as I blame Elvis Presley for awful Elvis impersonators. I did not criticise his playing.
I listened to the piece Jim put up, and there was JJK playing away at ITM, and very nice too. Remember, there is only so much you can do with a bodhran, and some people forget that. It sets the rhythm.
I may have been influenced by Peader Mercier and a brilliant player called Vinnie from Manchester, and yet I would be a bit more animated than those two. My biggest influence was in 1976 when a sergeant in the paras advised me to use one side of the stick. Eureka.
I would not claim to have a unique style, and if I was wrongly accused of judging JJK on a few mini-downloads, well I am now being judged by someone who has never, knowingly, heard me.
As for craving attention Stefanpaz, someone as multi-talented as my good humble modest self, craves protection from adoring fans. And I don't think you have heard me play either, even though you are spot on.
A last word. How many of you commenting on my playing actually play a bodhran. I mean I wouldn't give Tommy Peoples advice on playing the fiddle, which is much the same thing.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
Im only windin you up BB - you know that!
# Posted on May 25th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: John Joe Kelly
Still say you were spot on, I don't think someone else was winding.
# Posted on May 25th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: John Joe Kelly
I don't think anyone has mentioned that Johnjoe won the All Ireland Multiple times.
His traditional play is very different from his stage play and in my opinion he's perfectly capable of using his experience and judgement to assess and adapt.
# Posted on May 29th 2008 by powerhaus
Re: John Joe Kelly
If it weren't for people like John Joe Kelly, the bodhran would not have had such a youth revival.
He has given it a new sound!
But then it was foolish of me to expect anyone on the session to be forward thinking and enjoy innovation.
cf. "I believe that a mandolin is designed for playing melodies, not strumming or "flamenco"."
Instruments are what you make of them! Not what the maker made them.
Now lets just enjoy JJK!
# Posted on April 22nd 2012 by fearghas_mor
Re: John Joe Kelly
Only 4 years late...Well, seven actually.
# Posted on April 22nd 2012 by SmashTheWindows