Hey all,
yeah, i'm a novice fiddler and have been lurking this site for a while, but finally have been driven past the point of no return by some maddening questions to which you experts might have the key...
...so, one of the most frequently encountered ideas on thesession is that 'this music is an aural tradition, you can't really enter it through 'the dots,'' which i am really happy with, as i've always had a decent ear but am a dismal sightreader. However, i won't be good enough to join sessions for many months to come, and so i was looking for recordings that would give me the most bang for my buck in preparing me for that day when i first bring my fiddle along with me to the pub...
... wich brings me to my question: am i missing something, or are many of the most influential records inexpicably out of print? I want to memorize records like "Michael Coleman 1891-1945" and Kevin Burke's "if the cap fits" but cant find them for less than absurd blackmarket prices! This seems to be a pattern for more than just those two records... Why would the big irish trad record companies (Gael-Linn, Shanachie, Green Linnet) drop their classic recordings? I grew up in the punk rock scene, (that's what happens in highschool in the southbay) and i'm used to being able to find (easily and cheaply) every God-awful bootleg, bedroom-recording, and disasterous cut from recording sessions that these screwed-up teens produced... but i can't find important records from the most influential fiddlers of yesteryear or today? Does anybody know the innerworkings of Gael-Linn, Shanachie, and Green Linnet? If it is still profitable to press the Germs very first show (before they knew how to play their instruments) than Michael Coleman 1891-1945 must be a goldmine... again, i must be missing something here; thank you for your help, and i apologize for my ignorance...
I almost always find the trad CDs I'm looking for on Amazon, usually at not to bad prices. I'm sure I bought a CD copy of If the Cap Fits within the last year.
However, the Coleman on Gael Linn is out of production. The last I heard it was some technical problem, but that was over a year ago.... There is a decent Coleman compilation called The Enduring Magic which was put out by the Coleman Heritage Centre. It may be available generally now, but if not you can get it directly from them www.colemanirishmusic.com
I hope some other folk here will have further ideas.
Just wondering, how would you know if you're "good enough" to join a session? Surely if it's a decent session it will be OK to go and then gradually pick up stuff?
I think my best learning ever (playing the harp I'm talking about here, but could apply to any instrument) is, after 2 years of "noodling around", is of someone one day saying, "why don't you bring your harp along". Little did I realise that you can't appear with something as big as a harp, then slink out again without playing. But seriously, it was great - just playing along quietly with stuff, and then gradually growing in confidence thanks to odd bits of encouragement.
I shall carry on until one day when someone says, "why don't you leave it at home?"!!
I can't possibly know your circumstances, but I'd just say, take it to the pub - you can't start except by starting!
Looking for old recordings is admirable stephen, but the chances of the session players playing all the tunes on those old recordings is negligable. Go along to the nearest session whether you are ready or not, ask them can you record their sets [if they dont mind] and then go home and learn them until you feel confident to play them. When you have done that , then go back and ask them if they wouldnt mind if you joined in. If they have seen you before, and know that you are taking the time to fit in musically with what they are doing, the chances are they will welcome you with open arms. Eveyone has to start some where, and I personally think this would be the best way to approach it. By the way, you dont need to learn ALL their sets to take part but, the ones you do learn should be learnt tastefully and in keeping with the original players of that particular gathering, after all these will be the people who, if you play your cards right, can guide you in the future and point you in the right direction with trad, if you`re are sensitive about it that is.
A really good CD is ALP - Adult Learning Project
They have two 'session tunes' cds full of the best which will give you a solid foundation in tunes, they also have booklets with them full of notation which is good for a sight-reader such as yourself, try it, its good.
I agree with 'Rea. If you arrived in our session playing obscure Michael Coleman tunes you might impress but you won't get too many joining in with you.
You'd be more than welcome to tape tunes in most sessions - all you have to do is ask.
Try and get the names of the tunes from them at the same time and then you can look for the ABC here at the session. I use ABC Navigator and this allows you to slow the tune way down and then you can follow the ABC notation - great way to learn.
Hi - I'm in a similar position to you. Recordings of the experts are great to listen to and get a good feel for styles but there are many books of "dots" with accompanying CDs for learning purposes were the tunes aren't full of variations and ornamentation when you jujst need to learn the basics first. Try this http://www.hobgoblin-usa.com/local/contfram.htm
If there are local regular workshops they are also a good way to get into playing with others and for connections to sessions where you would fit in. I'm lucky in having lots of sessions locally but they vary so much- some with pro and semi pro musicians which I know I couldn't join in with but would be wonderful to listen to and some which are more a gathering of mates and no experts which are great to get a chance to try your playing out.
Stephen, if it's what you want are well-known tunes that often turn up in sessions then you could do worse than to try videos/dvds/cds of ceili bands playing for set dancers (not step dancing - that's solo dancing). The tunes are usually well played and straight down the line, without too much ornamentation. It's the sort of playing you can find at some of the better sessions where there are likely to be musicians who do gigs for set dancing.
Oh, welcome to The Session!
I know the aural is the best way into trad but, wherever possible, I think it speeds up the process by using both methods (ie notes as well). The Comhaltas Foinn Seisiun CD and books are a big help here. Virtually all the tunes are ones you'll hear at most sessions and the Book and CD can be obtained for just 20 Euro - more info is available from http://www.comhaltas.com/seisiun/foinnCD.htm
Regarding those Old Recordings: It's a treasure hunt, Stephen. I keep scrounging around in used record and CD stores whenever I'm in a likely city. (Portland is a likely city....). You never know what you'll find. Good hunting.
First sessions can be intimidating and exhilerating...but go ahead and try, even if you don't think you're "ready". Just have the right attitude of willingness and respect and you'll pick up alot of things by osmosis. In one of our groups, I was delighted to know that a fellow fiddler there just "came for a year and sat with her fiddle and held it; didn't play a tune till she got comfortable". I could do that! It didn't take that long, though,and I'm playing several tunes consistently and adding more each time, several just by learning while there. Listen for the ones your group plays often and go find one of the recordings mentioned above, or a simple book of common tunes (Kevin Burke has a great set with dvd or cd), and polish up one or two. That's bite-size and it's a real kick to play *something*. You can even play a few quiet drones underneath some sections and pick up the "last four diddley-diddley's on the A part", then add more from there next time around. After a little while, you'll get comfortable with the session folks and they will know you - you'll get tips and maybe borrow a cd or two back and forth. You don't have to bring a complete "wow" act to participate. In fact, it's preferred to be more subtle than that. Just bring whatcha got and show willingness to be part of the group and learn. I found alot of resouces come from the interaction of the session. Best of luck!
Thank y'all for your advice! Your replies have been truly helpful, and your warm welcome has encouraged me to muster the confidence necessary to pull a chair up to the circle with my beer instead of watching from the booth.. as regards some of the comments about not focusing on 'obscure MC tunes,' i guess i was running off of info i came across on the net; that Coleman album is the 'album with largest number of session tunes' or something like that on the irishtune.info chart, and on another thread here someone mentioned "that if you know Michael Coleman sets, you can find them in sessions anywhere you go"... so, is Coleman a staple, or obscure?
Yes, Coleman is a staple, but I wouldn't get too hung up on which tunes to learn. There is a general respect for new players that you should encounter which accepts what ever tunes you play. Sure, there are tunes that seasoned players are sick of, but these seasoned players will gladly play these tunes at a nice easy pace along with a beginner. Maybe not all night. but certainly two or three sets.
Amazon has lots of trad records - I bought Tommy Peoples, Andy McGann/Paddy Reynolds, John Carty there. Pretty much anything from Shanachie.
Phillipe Varlet is a fiddler who produced a couple of reissue records for Rounder - you can get those on Ebay if Rounder have deleted them - Phillipe said that there's pretty much no money in these reissues, the market is too piddling. I remember reading that the music industry is pretty much supported by Brittany Spears and similiar sugary versions of Hell, and everything else is actually expedient!
Much of Coleman's music is still being played! Like the ever popular Tarbolton/Longford Collector/Sailor's Bonnet medley. Or Bonnie Kate/Jennie's Chickens. Most players don't know where these medleys or settings came from in the first place! If you want to hear great fiddling he's well worth listening to anyway.
I'd agree though that going to the session you're interested in and recording it is the best thing to do. Ask for the names of the tunes, you can get many settings (versions) online, although some of these settings will be, well, lame. Or not precisely match what your local players may be playing. Often you'll run into people playing music from other, similiar genres to Irish music - Old time, Scottish, Contra Dance. All depends on the people involved.
Odd to hear Coleman mentioned in the same paragraph as the Germs!
amazon has a lot of stuff as people have said already.
http://elderly.com has a lot of recordings, most of them for about $13, so that can be a really good bet especially for more recent stuff. I've also been surprised at some of what i've found at used cd stores with decent celtic collections.
Coleman tunes are still played, especially the tarbolton set, but i think for albums that have tunes i hear played all the time in sessions, the "fiddle duets" album by paddy reynolds and andy mcgann is really good, and it's just a great album separate from that.
sorry but i was in a rush and unable to find out how to answer your querie about the railway hotel in heatley near lymm. I have now sent info to the ed about that session fizzling out. we have started attending the lloyds in chorlton on a monday eve for now. There is availability at the spread eagle in lymm bu no one is keen (the folk club is now there on a thursday eve (upstairs)
I must be missing something here...
I must be missing something here...
Hey all,
yeah, i'm a novice fiddler and have been lurking this site for a while, but finally have been driven past the point of no return by some maddening questions to which you experts might have the key...
...so, one of the most frequently encountered ideas on thesession is that 'this music is an aural tradition, you can't really enter it through 'the dots,'' which i am really happy with, as i've always had a decent ear but am a dismal sightreader. However, i won't be good enough to join sessions for many months to come, and so i was looking for recordings that would give me the most bang for my buck in preparing me for that day when i first bring my fiddle along with me to the pub...
... wich brings me to my question: am i missing something, or are many of the most influential records inexpicably out of print? I want to memorize records like "Michael Coleman 1891-1945" and Kevin Burke's "if the cap fits" but cant find them for less than absurd blackmarket prices! This seems to be a pattern for more than just those two records... Why would the big irish trad record companies (Gael-Linn, Shanachie, Green Linnet) drop their classic recordings? I grew up in the punk rock scene, (that's what happens in highschool in the southbay) and i'm used to being able to find (easily and cheaply) every God-awful bootleg, bedroom-recording, and disasterous cut from recording sessions that these screwed-up teens produced... but i can't find important records from the most influential fiddlers of yesteryear or today? Does anybody know the innerworkings of Gael-Linn, Shanachie, and Green Linnet? If it is still profitable to press the Germs very first show (before they knew how to play their instruments) than Michael Coleman 1891-1945 must be a goldmine... again, i must be missing something here; thank you for your help, and i apologize for my ignorance...
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by paralysedstephen
Re: I must be missing something here...
I almost always find the trad CDs I'm looking for on Amazon, usually at not to bad prices. I'm sure I bought a CD copy of If the Cap Fits within the last year.
However, the Coleman on Gael Linn is out of production. The last I heard it was some technical problem, but that was over a year ago.... There is a decent Coleman compilation called The Enduring Magic which was put out by the Coleman Heritage Centre. It may be available generally now, but if not you can get it directly from them www.colemanirishmusic.com
I hope some other folk here will have further ideas.
Good luck with your fiddling !
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by kris
Re: I must be missing something here...
Just wondering, how would you know if you're "good enough" to join a session? Surely if it's a decent session it will be OK to go and then gradually pick up stuff?
I think my best learning ever (playing the harp I'm talking about here, but could apply to any instrument) is, after 2 years of "noodling around", is of someone one day saying, "why don't you bring your harp along". Little did I realise that you can't appear with something as big as a harp, then slink out again without playing. But seriously, it was great - just playing along quietly with stuff, and then gradually growing in confidence thanks to odd bits of encouragement.
I shall carry on until one day when someone says, "why don't you leave it at home?"!!
I can't possibly know your circumstances, but I'd just say, take it to the pub - you can't start except by starting!
Mark
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: I must be missing something here...
Looking for old recordings is admirable stephen, but the chances of the session players playing all the tunes on those old recordings is negligable. Go along to the nearest session whether you are ready or not, ask them can you record their sets [if they dont mind] and then go home and learn them until you feel confident to play them. When you have done that , then go back and ask them if they wouldnt mind if you joined in. If they have seen you before, and know that you are taking the time to fit in musically with what they are doing, the chances are they will welcome you with open arms. Eveyone has to start some where, and I personally think this would be the best way to approach it. By the way, you dont need to learn ALL their sets to take part but, the ones you do learn should be learnt tastefully and in keeping with the original players of that particular gathering, after all these will be the people who, if you play your cards right, can guide you in the future and point you in the right direction with trad, if you`re are sensitive about it that is.
Good luck and keep practising.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: I must be missing something here...
A really good CD is ALP - Adult Learning Project
They have two 'session tunes' cds full of the best which will give you a solid foundation in tunes, they also have booklets with them full of notation which is good for a sight-reader such as yourself, try it, its good.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by ecidralla
Re: I must be missing something here...
I agree with 'Rea. If you arrived in our session playing obscure Michael Coleman tunes you might impress but you won't get too many joining in with you.
You'd be more than welcome to tape tunes in most sessions - all you have to do is ask.
Try and get the names of the tunes from them at the same time and then you can look for the ABC here at the session. I use ABC Navigator and this allows you to slow the tune way down and then you can follow the ABC notation - great way to learn.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by breandan
Re: I must be missing something here...
I agree with mark, get down the boozer right now
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by ...
Re: I must be missing something here...
Michael, we`re talking about playing, not drinking practise
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: I must be missing something here...
I meant both - not that I need to practise (drinking, that is...)
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: I must be missing something here...
Hi - I'm in a similar position to you. Recordings of the experts are great to listen to and get a good feel for styles but there are many books of "dots" with accompanying CDs for learning purposes were the tunes aren't full of variations and ornamentation when you jujst need to learn the basics first. Try this http://www.hobgoblin-usa.com/local/contfram.htm
If there are local regular workshops they are also a good way to get into playing with others and for connections to sessions where you would fit in. I'm lucky in having lots of sessions locally but they vary so much- some with pro and semi pro musicians which I know I couldn't join in with but would be wonderful to listen to and some which are more a gathering of mates and no experts which are great to get a chance to try your playing out.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Caraaz
Re: I must be missing something here...
Sound advice Caraaz.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: I must be missing something here...
Stephen, if it's what you want are well-known tunes that often turn up in sessions then you could do worse than to try videos/dvds/cds of ceili bands playing for set dancers (not step dancing - that's solo dancing). The tunes are usually well played and straight down the line, without too much ornamentation. It's the sort of playing you can find at some of the better sessions where there are likely to be musicians who do gigs for set dancing.
Oh, welcome to The Session!
Trevor
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: I must be missing something here...
I know the aural is the best way into trad but, wherever possible, I think it speeds up the process by using both methods (ie notes as well). The Comhaltas Foinn Seisiun CD and books are a big help here. Virtually all the tunes are ones you'll hear at most sessions and the Book and CD can be obtained for just 20 Euro - more info is available from http://www.comhaltas.com/seisiun/foinnCD.htm
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Bannerman
Re: I must be missing something here...
Regarding those Old Recordings: It's a treasure hunt, Stephen. I keep scrounging around in used record and CD stores whenever I'm in a likely city. (Portland is a likely city....). You never know what you'll find. Good hunting.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Michele Sims
Re: I must be missing something here...
First sessions can be intimidating and exhilerating...but go ahead and try, even if you don't think you're "ready". Just have the right attitude of willingness and respect and you'll pick up alot of things by osmosis. In one of our groups, I was delighted to know that a fellow fiddler there just "came for a year and sat with her fiddle and held it; didn't play a tune till she got comfortable". I could do that! It didn't take that long, though,and I'm playing several tunes consistently and adding more each time, several just by learning while there. Listen for the ones your group plays often and go find one of the recordings mentioned above, or a simple book of common tunes (Kevin Burke has a great set with dvd or cd), and polish up one or two. That's bite-size and it's a real kick to play *something*. You can even play a few quiet drones underneath some sections and pick up the "last four diddley-diddley's on the A part", then add more from there next time around. After a little while, you'll get comfortable with the session folks and they will know you - you'll get tips and maybe borrow a cd or two back and forth. You don't have to bring a complete "wow" act to participate. In fact, it's preferred to be more subtle than that. Just bring whatcha got and show willingness to be part of the group and learn. I found alot of resouces come from the interaction of the session. Best of luck!
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by dragonfiddle
Re: I must be missing something here...
Thank y'all for your advice! Your replies have been truly helpful, and your warm welcome has encouraged me to muster the confidence necessary to pull a chair up to the circle with my beer instead of watching from the booth.. as regards some of the comments about not focusing on 'obscure MC tunes,' i guess i was running off of info i came across on the net; that Coleman album is the 'album with largest number of session tunes' or something like that on the irishtune.info chart, and on another thread here someone mentioned "that if you know Michael Coleman sets, you can find them in sessions anywhere you go"... so, is Coleman a staple, or obscure?
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by paralysedstephen
Re: I must be missing something here...
Yes, Coleman is a staple, but I wouldn't get too hung up on which tunes to learn. There is a general respect for new players that you should encounter which accepts what ever tunes you play. Sure, there are tunes that seasoned players are sick of, but these seasoned players will gladly play these tunes at a nice easy pace along with a beginner. Maybe not all night. but certainly two or three sets.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by ...
Re: I must be missing something here...
You can get If the Cap Fits at Walmart.com for realy cheap. :D
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Pádraig
Re: I must be missing something here...
Amazon has lots of trad records - I bought Tommy Peoples, Andy McGann/Paddy Reynolds, John Carty there. Pretty much anything from Shanachie.
Phillipe Varlet is a fiddler who produced a couple of reissue records for Rounder - you can get those on Ebay if Rounder have deleted them - Phillipe said that there's pretty much no money in these reissues, the market is too piddling. I remember reading that the music industry is pretty much supported by Brittany Spears and similiar sugary versions of Hell, and everything else is actually expedient!
Much of Coleman's music is still being played! Like the ever popular Tarbolton/Longford Collector/Sailor's Bonnet medley. Or Bonnie Kate/Jennie's Chickens. Most players don't know where these medleys or settings came from in the first place! If you want to hear great fiddling he's well worth listening to anyway.
I'd agree though that going to the session you're interested in and recording it is the best thing to do. Ask for the names of the tunes, you can get many settings (versions) online, although some of these settings will be, well, lame. Or not precisely match what your local players may be playing. Often you'll run into people playing music from other, similiar genres to Irish music - Old time, Scottish, Contra Dance. All depends on the people involved.
Odd to hear Coleman mentioned in the same paragraph as the Germs!
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by KLR
Re: I must be missing something here...
amazon has a lot of stuff as people have said already.
http://elderly.com has a lot of recordings, most of them for about $13, so that can be a really good bet especially for more recent stuff. I've also been surprised at some of what i've found at used cd stores with decent celtic collections.
Coleman tunes are still played, especially the tarbolton set, but i think for albums that have tunes i hear played all the time in sessions, the "fiddle duets" album by paddy reynolds and andy mcgann is really good, and it's just a great album separate from that.
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by heth
Re: I must be missing something here...
sorry but i was in a rush and unable to find out how to answer your querie about the railway hotel in heatley near lymm. I have now sent info to the ed about that session fizzling out. we have started attending the lloyds in chorlton on a monday eve for now. There is availability at the spread eagle in lymm bu no one is keen (the folk club is now there on a thursday eve (upstairs)
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by c.rigby