personally, I think it's more fun to contemplate the f-holes on my fiddle than my bellybutton - takes the edge off those downers as well
And has more interesting acoustics.
And doesn't usually end with ill-considered tearful confessions to people who would have been happier being in the dark about whatever you've been contemplating- just some music. out of key it may be, but music nonetheless.
This is an actual response given to a friend of mine who wanted buy a hot air balloon and whose mother had run out of other reasons why it shouldn't be done.
There might be bandits in the landing field.
The suggestion is ludicrous, and the speaker almost certainly knew it was ludicrous, but she had run out of other "rational" objections to the balloon and it was so important to her to put down the idea of the balloon that she was willing to offer a ludicrous objection when all else had failed.
The world is full of "bandits in the field" people. People who will tell you it can't be done, it shouldn't be done, ok, maybe it can and should be done, but who do you think you are to think that you're good enough to do it.
And the ever popular "Be realistic."
When I were still a wee lad in short pants my dear, departed Bubby gave me some advice on how to deal with people like that:
"Shtup 'em."
Bubby was a p*sser.
Even if one were inclined to try you simply can't make all people happy. Make person A happy, person B will be unhappy. Go back to person B and try to make them happy, person A is now p*ssed off.
Rinse, repeat, go effing bonkers.
I'll offer this radical suggestion: Make yourself happy and surround yourself with people who are happy about that.
If you are happy and someone complains about it, well, think about it, *they aren't someone who is concerned about your happiness.*
Like is short. You don't have time to deal with people like that. Shtup 'em.
And hey, Dow, when we want your opinion we'll give it to you.
It's been my experience, in music and in other areas, that karma is a real force of nature. In most circumstances, people seem to get out of this world more or less what we put into it.
Jim,
surely the great thing about a site like this is that if you post a thread/pose a question, philosophical or practical, it will be answered by a whole range of people, from those you might term put-downers (MG, myself maybe) to those who are always willing to see the positive side (Zina). Between these poles the replies will include long rambling and sometimes impenetrable if erudite missives from the likes of KFG, seemingly thrown together gibberish which does its best to mask clever thoughts from yourself, gratuitous insults from Mr Silver Spear, The view down Danny's Microscope, Will's finely honed tracts from the Dental Floss Prairies, etc etc.....
The point is that this gives you a much rounder reply than just asking your friends, or your mum, or your wife/husband.
In general our wee session is an encouragement to young and old who are new to the music but we will also give constructive and sometimes harsh criticism to those who are crap, impolite, dont know the rules, obnoxious, disrespectful, etc.
Sometimes they take the hump and sometimes they learn from it.
Inappropriate 'picking up' can sometimes be detrimental to giver and receiver alike.
This music is about sharing, so any criticizing should be done as constructively as possible. If we want to turn this "folk" or people's music into classical music, all we need to do is start turning away those who don't meet high enough standards, who can't play it the "right" way. Even when written music is not present, some people can get pretty rigid. If a punter wants to sing his favorite once in a while, he should get his chance. If an oldster with a concertina asks everyone to slow down for a minute and play his favorite set of marches, let him. If a kid having dinner with his family in a nearby booth wants to bang a spoon, we may be seeing the start of a life-long passion. Some discrimination is required, but we want to avoid sticking our noses up in the air, and becoming excessively concerned with the "purity" of the music, at the expense of the sharing that is the soul of the music.
Slagging is a noble tradition and ought to be celebrated, nurtured and diligently passed through the generations. It reminds us not to take ourselves too seriously. How did we ever get so obsessed with never ever ever doing or saying anything that might make somebody else feel icky? It's turning us into a continent of thin-skinned pansies.
Better for all of us if we just say what we think.
That's very sweet Al, (apart from the obvious wind-up bit about encouraging the kid to have a lifelong passion for playing the spoons!), but I don't think that the put-downers Jim refers to are people who put people down because of any desire for musical purity. On the original thread that inspired this, the hapless Mr. Hussar was put down for his perceived (careful choice of words there) negativity in his original post, not because of any wish to discourage him from playing.
And he proved well able to return to the fray and clarify what he meant further down the thread.
We sit in our closeted 1st world coseyness with our 1st world obesity and 1st world health care. We are able to enjoy the luxury of recreation and yet all we are really masters of is anal introspection.
Seriously, what gets me is people who whinge about other people's introspection.
What happens if we live in the 1st world luxury we've created and don't take the time to use our brains and think and be introspective?
We become George W. Bush that's what.
If we wanted we could criticize everything any 1st world person does on the grounds that there are better things they could be doing to help their (3rd world?) cousins. "How dare you have a job - you should be volunteering to help house the homeless"... "how dare you eat that piece of chocolate cake - you should use the money you would have spent on it to help feed the starving".
But maybe we'd be a bit hypocritical to do that. Projecting our own guilt onto other people and blaming others for we ourselves can't be bothered to get off our arses to do, perhaps?...
Getting a bit carried away there, aren't you, mark? Nobody said we should be helping the third world. Just that we don't really have all that much to whine about and spend WAY too much time trying to think of something.
Sorry Kerri, I guess I got confused trying to work out why you and Michael, of all people, would moan about people moaning on this website. What good is a cynic who doesn't like moaning? Me, I like to have a good moan once in a while. I think anyone who claims not to is either a liar or some sort of insufferably chipper plastic cheerleader type, and I'm afraid I can't imagine Michael as a cheerleader, or you for that matter.
Michael GilI: I disagree with you, as usual. We are not the masters of this "anal introspection." My dog is. In fact, he's on the couch doing that disgusting thing in front of guests (and making them sick) again right now.
Dow: "We would become George W. Bush?" Now you are scaring me. The first image that comes to mind is that Matrix thang when all these bad guys popped out of bad guys. So you would end up with a billion Bushes all telling lies at the same time. Yikes!!!!!!! 0^:
Anyway, thinking deeply about the issues raised in this thread and doing my best to work hypocritcal, whingey comments into my posts allows me to avoid wasting time learning more tunes.
The Hapless Hussar here!! Maybe I can a word in edgeways on this.... excuse us while I'm having a good laugh!!.....
I don't understand most of the above. Like most people here, I have tunes running around my head and I also have questions running around, getting mixed up with the tunes. So I post a thread to see what other people think and guess what ... people have very different opinions. Do I care .. not a bit of it. Am I a cynic??? not really, well perhaps just a tiny touch of one ... actually a bit of an anarchist at heart, growing up in the punk years.
And I go along with KFG not just on this thread but on many others that he or she has espoused upon : good sound, down to earth opinions .. well mostly!!
Sorry CC - cross-posted, LOL @ your dog. Jim I'm going to answer your question more clearly. I myself am a pick 'em up, not a put 'em down. I have come across a lot of put 'em downs in my life, and I deal with them by reassuring myself that people who put other people down ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS do it because of their own insecurity or pain or anxiety or whatever. So it's best to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some people are better than others at dealing with scheidt in their lives. People who aren't very good at it try and deal with it by projecting throwing their scheidt at other people instead of making an effort to clean it up themselves. The act of recognising that this is why you are having scheidt thrown at you is a good way to build yourself with a scheidt-shield.
And thinking about what KFG said yesterday in relation to silence and music. Maybe this is the Yin and Yang (not that I'm much into this), the black and white, light and dark, good and evil ...... but in relation to music and silence ... which is which?? Answer me that!
I don't think I'm moaning Mark. But if I am, you're all invited to slag me senseless.
It's just that I believe very strongly that it's more important to state your opinion loud and proud than it is to try to make everybody feel warm and fuzzy all the time. That way if you're wrong-headed or mean-spirited you'll hear about it right away and be able to do something about it, if you are so inclined.
The things we suppress become a part of who we are.
No, I'm being philosophical and lippy. introspective would be "gosh, I feel less than absolutely perfect today. I wonder what or who is to blame for the fact that I am not happy every single day."
Oh, I think there's ways to state an opinion and not be spineless about it without making someone else feel like they're about three inches tall, unless of course they're determined to do so. I'm not saying I can do that very well, of course, but I know that there are ways to do it. My friend Erin is the absolute mistress of "never anything bad to say", but no one would ever ever call her a thin-skinned pansy.
I've certainly done my share of criticising (hopefully helpfully), needling the momentarily insufferable, and verbally body checking the determinedly clueless. And while I'm a pick-er-upper by nature, there are quite a few people who would stare at you as if you were a crazy person if you told them that.
Doesn't anyone else find the saccharine condescension of sugar-coated criticism both obvious and disturbing? Or is it just me? I prefer my criticism blunt and uninhibited. It's easier to filter out the wisdom from the filth that way.
Although, I should add that I've found myself in the position of helping others who have been bluntly criticized and taken it badly with their filtering process. Maybe it is not a natural skill for North Americans. But that only shows we need practice! Let's tear each other to ribbons, people! Don't be shy!
" . .all we are really masters of is anal introspection."
Despite years of yoga I'm afraid I'm not quite that fexiible and have to settle for my navel.
Nonetheless, I have some sympathy with Kerri's position, but do not believe she is in quite as much agreement with you as she might think at the moment. As the scientist responded to the priest when accused of insulting his religion:
"It was supposed to be insulting."
One, can, however, carry a good thing too far. One needs to apply a bit of art to the method, apply it only where appropriate and balance it with the occasional "Good show old bean."
I've lived in the third world. I've had a toilet that was the hole in the ground out back and a "sink" that was the spring half a mile away. . . .down a cliff. There was no health care at all to speak of and people lived hard on what they could scrape from the land on a daily basis.
But it is the land that provides, not K-Mart and on the whole life was not as hard as I have observed people living here in the 1st world. I observed obesity, introspection and absolute gobs of recreation. It was an absolute paradise for children (I was a child myself at the time) so long as you didn't get sick (I came down with hepatitis and survived without any health care at all, and I was not overly sturdy to begin with. Interestingly, given the incubation period, I had to have acquired it in the 1st world).
Recreation often centered around idle gossip . . .and music.
Idle gossip and music are primal. The people whose lives Hobbes characterized as "nasty, brutish and short" took the time to invent, and enjoy, both, not to mention a turn at fine art. Living in cozyness has nothing to do with enjoying music, nor having the time and energy to do so.
The whole idea that without our 1st world benefits life is necessarily a grim affair is a 1st world arrogance and utter poppycock. Starvation is grim, but once the belly is full people, in all times, places and circumstances turn to having a bit of fun; and they even find "anal introspection" fun. It's a human thing to do, no matter what "world" you live in. It is what we are really masters of.
If everyone listened to the down putters we would be truely living lives that are nasty, brutish and short, as many people in the 1st world, unfortunately, actually do. If there were not Morlocks already among us Wells wouldn't have been able to observe them and perform his extrapolation.
As to the thread which spawned this one nobody did much, if any, slagging of the Wounded Hussar. They slagged the point of view that may have resulted from a slagging, that in turn resulted in his post, that music is a "waste of time."
I think I'll go play some music. I think I'd like to do so with Al, and the kid with the spoon. They sound like they know how to have fun. . . and the value of doing so. The Wounded Hussar would be welcome as well. Sounds like he could use the pick up.
A wounded Wounded Hussar? Sounds a bit redundant to me. The Yang and Ying of Music? Am I a musician playing butterfly music dreaming I am a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a musician playing butterfly music? Wow - Zenned out for the day.
Too much "anal introspection" and you might dive in and implode into thin air. I'm still waiting for my dog to stop (or disappear into thin air). The thought of a yoga guy on the couch with him sharing the experience? Maybe the dog could give a yoga workshop?
"jaysus , i go away for 20 minutes , and this is what happens ,"
Tell me about it. It took me longer than that to write that last post and it hardly seems relevant now.
". . .down to earth opinions .. well mostly!!"
When I appear to be building castles in the air I generally have a fair idea of how to put foundations under them. I can't, however, guarantee that the architecture will meet with everyone's approval.
Of course some castles simply belong in the air. "Pragmatism" isn't always pragmatic.
And sometimes I just get silly.
"... which is which?? Answer me that!"
Without the spaces between the notes what would you have? Well, ok, pipe music. Bad example.
"Doesn't anyone else find the saccharine condescension of sugar-coated criticism both obvious and disturbing?"
Yes. Mixing saccharine with sugar is revolting merely as a concept and seems rather pointless.
"Am I a musician playing butterfly music dreaming I am a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a musician playing butterfly music?"
Yes.
". . .you might dive in and implode into thin air."
Step right this way, sir. Have I got a castle for you. Cheap price, Mi Amigo. Only a few billion former owners.
On this website we discuss music, and now we are discussing how we discuss music, or maybe we are discussing how we discuss a discussion of music. I feel like the little girl on the Ovaltine mug my dad owned, who was portrayed looking at an Ovaltine mug, where there is a picture of a little girl holding an Ovaltine mug, looking at a picture of a little girl holding an Ovaltine mug, where there is a picture........
Just saying one shouldn't get upset with what is said here. I mean John Culhane and myself are now practically an item, and it all started with him saying it would be better if I wasn't in Ireland for the gathering, and he had never even met little, inoffensive me.
If one is offended, come back with the best put downer by replying "How would you know?". If said right, especially about music, it is guaranteed to work. I expect the next six posts to say "how would you know?".
I disagree with the come back put down, though. I like a more direct approach that lets the put downer know how I feel. I think its like what Kerri said earlier - that we should say what we think.
"On this website we discuss music, and now we are discussing how we discuss music, or maybe we are discussing how we discuss a discussion of music".
Read it again. What we're really saying is: "stop putting people down on this website - it's hurtful and unhelpful and it has negative consequences for all".
I'd say that there's a fairly clearcut distinction between criticism and putting someone down. Saying what you think is one thing, saying what you think in a way that unnecessarily makes someone feel stupid is another. I'd agree with Mark, and it was certainly the substance of what Jimmy was saying, I'd imagine.
Yes I agree I would prefer my criticism “blunt and uninhibited”
But there’s two types of “put-downs” being discussed.
There’s the people who love to put down others because it makes them feel good.
How often do you hear “Children can be so cruel” bollix, it’s not children it’s human nature.
It’s an inbuilt thing in us to make us feel good about ourselves, and it comes out in children because they haven’t fully developed the ability to care about others.
Parents aren’t teaching their little ones to make fun of the fat kid.
Jealously, envy, bitterness….they’re all ugly characteristics that exist in human nature.,
Sure they can be suppressed, but they come out at times, more in some, less in others, probably depends on how bad people feel about themselves.
Have you ever noticed that a w@nker is much more likely to be a w@nker on the phone, or to shout abuse and give the finger while hidden behind the wheel of his car, or hidden by the internet where eye to eye contact is gone, it’s a lot easier to vent off your anger, bitterness whatever.
I think that is a very different thing than someone bluntly saying, “ah for the love of Jaysus, you have that ar$eways”, and personally I’d prefer someone to come out and say to me, rather than tip-toe around me because they’re afraid of hurting my feelings.
You have that arsways. People make ME feel bad whan they come out with stupid things. And I feel bad when I tell 'em. It's not Jealously, envy or bitterness, it's frustration at idiocy. I feel bad, they feel bad, everbody feels bad. Solution: don't be be an idiot
Yes, that's the second kind of "put down" I'm taking about.
The one I don't mind - I'm not saying that that has anything to
do with jealously, eny or bitterness.....so in a way, you too have it arseways.
Just move the mouse to put the pointer on top of a smiley emoticon and hold it there. A caption box appears and shows you what the key combination is. For example, this ; then this - and then this ) will give you
I don't think the "caption box" thing works for anything but IE, actually. Bliss, if you really want to make a smiley, for some insane reason, type a ":" (colon) and then a dash " - " and then a close parenthesis mark - " ) "
When you hit post, you'll get the yellow smiley face that matches our fav web site.
Bliss: You would have to borrow Michael Gill's penknife for doing your own brain surgery.
"Thaks a lot." Are you sure you haven't already tried the brain surgery? (^:
BTW, BB, if you want do it yourself brain surgery, i do believe some gal videoed herself in the act of self-trephination a few years back. You might find that very informational.
As I tortured JFH to reveal the smiley secret with his last breath he mumbled "Bracket". And fiddlemouse had already posted it. Ah well, too late now. I blame Zina for putting me wrong. At least JFH did not die in vain.
pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
personally, I think it's more fun to contemplate the f-holes on my fiddle than my bellybutton - takes the edge off those downers as well
And has more interesting acoustics.
And doesn't usually end with ill-considered tearful confessions to people who would have been happier being in the dark about whatever you've been contemplating- just some music. out of key it may be, but music nonetheless.
Sooo... how about them Orioles?
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by tualha04
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Whaddya mean put-downers god Jim you always talk such a load of rubbish.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
"But there might be bandits in the field!"
This is an actual response given to a friend of mine who wanted buy a hot air balloon and whose mother had run out of other reasons why it shouldn't be done.
There might be bandits in the landing field.
The suggestion is ludicrous, and the speaker almost certainly knew it was ludicrous, but she had run out of other "rational" objections to the balloon and it was so important to her to put down the idea of the balloon that she was willing to offer a ludicrous objection when all else had failed.
The world is full of "bandits in the field" people. People who will tell you it can't be done, it shouldn't be done, ok, maybe it can and should be done, but who do you think you are to think that you're good enough to do it.
And the ever popular "Be realistic."
When I were still a wee lad in short pants my dear, departed Bubby gave me some advice on how to deal with people like that:
"Shtup 'em."
Bubby was a p*sser.
Even if one were inclined to try you simply can't make all people happy. Make person A happy, person B will be unhappy. Go back to person B and try to make them happy, person A is now p*ssed off.
Rinse, repeat, go effing bonkers.
I'll offer this radical suggestion: Make yourself happy and surround yourself with people who are happy about that.
If you are happy and someone complains about it, well, think about it, *they aren't someone who is concerned about your happiness.*
Like is short. You don't have time to deal with people like that. Shtup 'em.
And hey, Dow, when we want your opinion we'll give it to you.
KFG
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by KFG
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
It's been my experience, in music and in other areas, that karma is a real force of nature. In most circumstances, people seem to get out of this world more or less what we put into it.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Jams O'Donnell
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
I'd have to say I'm a pick-er-upper by nature. I prefer it that way. I suppose we need the put em downers, though, in one way or another.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Definately a picker-upper, must be a woman thing, what do you think Zina?
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Jim,
surely the great thing about a site like this is that if you post a thread/pose a question, philosophical or practical, it will be answered by a whole range of people, from those you might term put-downers (MG, myself maybe) to those who are always willing to see the positive side (Zina). Between these poles the replies will include long rambling and sometimes impenetrable if erudite missives from the likes of KFG, seemingly thrown together gibberish which does its best to mask clever thoughts from yourself, gratuitous insults from Mr Silver Spear, The view down Danny's Microscope, Will's finely honed tracts from the Dental Floss Prairies, etc etc.....
The point is that this gives you a much rounder reply than just asking your friends, or your mum, or your wife/husband.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Ottery
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
You have a wife/husband? Wow... they bring home the bacon AND cook and clean??? I want one.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Jack, that's just plain nasty. You KNOW I haven't got a wife/husband.
Or Friends.
Or a mum ....
This is getting a bit like a Gillian Welch song ...
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Ottery
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Ah - but some people NEED to be put down.
In general our wee session is an encouragement to young and old who are new to the music but we will also give constructive and sometimes harsh criticism to those who are crap, impolite, dont know the rules, obnoxious, disrespectful, etc.
Sometimes they take the hump and sometimes they learn from it.
Inappropriate 'picking up' can sometimes be detrimental to giver and receiver alike.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by breandan
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Jams
If you think karma is a real force of nature, you should try the rogan josh.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Seriously though folks . . . .
If you get a real put down (on this site or elsewhere), a real good cure is to go and waste some time playing music.
Which is where this all started.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
This music is about sharing, so any criticizing should be done as constructively as possible. If we want to turn this "folk" or people's music into classical music, all we need to do is start turning away those who don't meet high enough standards, who can't play it the "right" way. Even when written music is not present, some people can get pretty rigid. If a punter wants to sing his favorite once in a while, he should get his chance. If an oldster with a concertina asks everyone to slow down for a minute and play his favorite set of marches, let him. If a kid having dinner with his family in a nearby booth wants to bang a spoon, we may be seeing the start of a life-long passion. Some discrimination is required, but we want to avoid sticking our noses up in the air, and becoming excessively concerned with the "purity" of the music, at the expense of the sharing that is the soul of the music.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Slagging is a noble tradition and ought to be celebrated, nurtured and diligently passed through the generations. It reminds us not to take ourselves too seriously. How did we ever get so obsessed with never ever ever doing or saying anything that might make somebody else feel icky? It's turning us into a continent of thin-skinned pansies.
Better for all of us if we just say what we think.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
That's very sweet Al, (apart from the obvious wind-up bit about encouraging the kid to have a lifelong passion for playing the spoons!), but I don't think that the put-downers Jim refers to are people who put people down because of any desire for musical purity. On the original thread that inspired this, the hapless Mr. Hussar was put down for his perceived (careful choice of words there) negativity in his original post, not because of any wish to discourage him from playing.
And he proved well able to return to the fray and clarify what he meant further down the thread.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Ottery
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Christ almighty what whinging.
Am I one to put whingers down? damn right
We sit in our closeted 1st world coseyness with our 1st world obesity and 1st world health care. We are able to enjoy the luxury of recreation and yet all we are really masters of is anal introspection.
You're damn right I'll put you all down
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
My god, what's happening to me, I'm in agreement with Michael Gill...
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Just make sure you make it painless, Michael. How about lethal injection?
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Coat.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Seriously, what gets me is people who whinge about other people's introspection.
What happens if we live in the 1st world luxury we've created and don't take the time to use our brains and think and be introspective?
We become George W. Bush that's what.
If we wanted we could criticize everything any 1st world person does on the grounds that there are better things they could be doing to help their (3rd world?) cousins. "How dare you have a job - you should be volunteering to help house the homeless"... "how dare you eat that piece of chocolate cake - you should use the money you would have spent on it to help feed the starving".
But maybe we'd be a bit hypocritical to do that. Projecting our own guilt onto other people and blaming others for we ourselves can't be bothered to get off our arses to do, perhaps?...
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Getting a bit carried away there, aren't you, mark? Nobody said we should be helping the third world. Just that we don't really have all that much to whine about and spend WAY too much time trying to think of something.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Sorry Kerri, I guess I got confused trying to work out why you and Michael, of all people, would moan about people moaning on this website. What good is a cynic who doesn't like moaning? Me, I like to have a good moan once in a while. I think anyone who claims not to is either a liar or some sort of insufferably chipper plastic cheerleader type, and I'm afraid I can't imagine Michael as a cheerleader, or you for that matter.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Michael GilI: I disagree with you, as usual. We are not the masters of this "anal introspection." My dog is. In fact, he's on the couch doing that disgusting thing in front of guests (and making them sick) again right now.
Dow: "We would become George W. Bush?" Now you are scaring me. The first image that comes to mind is that Matrix thang when all these bad guys popped out of bad guys. So you would end up with a billion Bushes all telling lies at the same time. Yikes!!!!!!! 0^:
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Anyway, thinking deeply about the issues raised in this thread and doing my best to work hypocritcal, whingey comments into my posts allows me to avoid wasting time learning more tunes.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
The Hapless Hussar here!! Maybe I can a word in edgeways on this.... excuse us while I'm having a good laugh!!.....
I don't understand most of the above. Like most people here, I have tunes running around my head and I also have questions running around, getting mixed up with the tunes. So I post a thread to see what other people think and guess what ... people have very different opinions. Do I care .. not a bit of it. Am I a cynic??? not really, well perhaps just a tiny touch of one ... actually a bit of an anarchist at heart, growing up in the punk years.
And I go along with KFG not just on this thread but on many others that he or she has espoused upon : good sound, down to earth opinions .. well mostly!!
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Sorry CC - cross-posted, LOL @ your dog. Jim I'm going to answer your question more clearly. I myself am a pick 'em up, not a put 'em down. I have come across a lot of put 'em downs in my life, and I deal with them by reassuring myself that people who put other people down ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS do it because of their own insecurity or pain or anxiety or whatever. So it's best to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some people are better than others at dealing with scheidt in their lives. People who aren't very good at it try and deal with it by projecting throwing their scheidt at other people instead of making an effort to clean it up themselves. The act of recognising that this is why you are having scheidt thrown at you is a good way to build yourself with a scheidt-shield.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
not with.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
And thinking about what KFG said yesterday in relation to silence and music. Maybe this is the Yin and Yang (not that I'm much into this), the black and white, light and dark, good and evil ...... but in relation to music and silence ... which is which?? Answer me that!
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
I don't think I'm moaning Mark. But if I am, you're all invited to slag me senseless.
It's just that I believe very strongly that it's more important to state your opinion loud and proud than it is to try to make everybody feel warm and fuzzy all the time. That way if you're wrong-headed or mean-spirited you'll hear about it right away and be able to do something about it, if you are so inclined.
The things we suppress become a part of who we are.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Is that you being introspective, Kerri? ... I rest my case
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
No, I'm being philosophical and lippy. introspective would be "gosh, I feel less than absolutely perfect today. I wonder what or who is to blame for the fact that I am not happy every single day."
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
How can you be philosophical and lippy without first being introspective?
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Sorry Kerri, it's ok I'm off to bed now
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Oh, I think there's ways to state an opinion and not be spineless about it without making someone else feel like they're about three inches tall, unless of course they're determined to do so. I'm not saying I can do that very well, of course, but I know that there are ways to do it. My friend Erin is the absolute mistress of "never anything bad to say", but no one would ever ever call her a thin-skinned pansy.
I've certainly done my share of criticising (hopefully helpfully), needling the momentarily insufferable, and verbally body checking the determinedly clueless. And while I'm a pick-er-upper by nature, there are quite a few people who would stare at you as if you were a crazy person if you told them that.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Zina if you'd arrived earlier we could have gone into the whole interesting area of SM and put-downs-for-pleasure, but I have to go to bed. Damn
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Doesn't anyone else find the saccharine condescension of sugar-coated criticism both obvious and disturbing? Or is it just me? I prefer my criticism blunt and uninhibited. It's easier to filter out the wisdom from the filth that way.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Although, I should add that I've found myself in the position of helping others who have been bluntly criticized and taken it badly with their filtering process. Maybe it is not a natural skill for North Americans. But that only shows we need practice! Let's tear each other to ribbons, people! Don't be shy!
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
" . .all we are really masters of is anal introspection."
Despite years of yoga I'm afraid I'm not quite that fexiible and have to settle for my navel.
Nonetheless, I have some sympathy with Kerri's position, but do not believe she is in quite as much agreement with you as she might think at the moment. As the scientist responded to the priest when accused of insulting his religion:
"It was supposed to be insulting."
One, can, however, carry a good thing too far. One needs to apply a bit of art to the method, apply it only where appropriate and balance it with the occasional "Good show old bean."
I've lived in the third world. I've had a toilet that was the hole in the ground out back and a "sink" that was the spring half a mile away. . . .down a cliff. There was no health care at all to speak of and people lived hard on what they could scrape from the land on a daily basis.
But it is the land that provides, not K-Mart and on the whole life was not as hard as I have observed people living here in the 1st world. I observed obesity, introspection and absolute gobs of recreation. It was an absolute paradise for children (I was a child myself at the time) so long as you didn't get sick (I came down with hepatitis and survived without any health care at all, and I was not overly sturdy to begin with. Interestingly, given the incubation period, I had to have acquired it in the 1st world).
Recreation often centered around idle gossip . . .and music.
Idle gossip and music are primal. The people whose lives Hobbes characterized as "nasty, brutish and short" took the time to invent, and enjoy, both, not to mention a turn at fine art. Living in cozyness has nothing to do with enjoying music, nor having the time and energy to do so.
The whole idea that without our 1st world benefits life is necessarily a grim affair is a 1st world arrogance and utter poppycock. Starvation is grim, but once the belly is full people, in all times, places and circumstances turn to having a bit of fun; and they even find "anal introspection" fun. It's a human thing to do, no matter what "world" you live in. It is what we are really masters of.
If everyone listened to the down putters we would be truely living lives that are nasty, brutish and short, as many people in the 1st world, unfortunately, actually do. If there were not Morlocks already among us Wells wouldn't have been able to observe them and perform his extrapolation.
As to the thread which spawned this one nobody did much, if any, slagging of the Wounded Hussar. They slagged the point of view that may have resulted from a slagging, that in turn resulted in his post, that music is a "waste of time."
I think I'll go play some music. I think I'd like to do so with Al, and the kid with the spoon. They sound like they know how to have fun. . . and the value of doing so. The Wounded Hussar would be welcome as well. Sounds like he could use the pick up.
KFG
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by KFG
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
A wounded Wounded Hussar? Sounds a bit redundant to me. The Yang and Ying of Music? Am I a musician playing butterfly music dreaming I am a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a musician playing butterfly music? Wow - Zenned out for the day.
Too much "anal introspection" and you might dive in and implode into thin air. I'm still waiting for my dog to stop (or disappear into thin air). The thought of a yoga guy on the couch with him sharing the experience? Maybe the dog could give a yoga workshop?
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
"jaysus , i go away for 20 minutes , and this is what happens ,"
Tell me about it. It took me longer than that to write that last post and it hardly seems relevant now.
". . .down to earth opinions .. well mostly!!"
When I appear to be building castles in the air I generally have a fair idea of how to put foundations under them. I can't, however, guarantee that the architecture will meet with everyone's approval.
Of course some castles simply belong in the air. "Pragmatism" isn't always pragmatic.
And sometimes I just get silly.
"... which is which?? Answer me that!"
Without the spaces between the notes what would you have? Well, ok, pipe music. Bad example.
"Doesn't anyone else find the saccharine condescension of sugar-coated criticism both obvious and disturbing?"
Yes. Mixing saccharine with sugar is revolting merely as a concept and seems rather pointless.
"Am I a musician playing butterfly music dreaming I am a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a musician playing butterfly music?"
Yes.
". . .you might dive in and implode into thin air."
Step right this way, sir. Have I got a castle for you. Cheap price, Mi Amigo. Only a few billion former owners.
KFG
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by KFG
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
On this website we discuss music, and now we are discussing how we discuss music, or maybe we are discussing how we discuss a discussion of music. I feel like the little girl on the Ovaltine mug my dad owned, who was portrayed looking at an Ovaltine mug, where there is a picture of a little girl holding an Ovaltine mug, looking at a picture of a little girl holding an Ovaltine mug, where there is a picture........
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
I feel like the kid in the photo on the milk carton.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
I sent a post and it vanished. Another Bliss miracle.
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Just saying one shouldn't get upset with what is said here. I mean John Culhane and myself are now practically an item, and it all started with him saying it would be better if I wasn't in Ireland for the gathering, and he had never even met little, inoffensive me.
If one is offended, come back with the best put downer by replying "How would you know?". If said right, especially about music, it is guaranteed to work. I expect the next six posts to say "how would you know?".
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
bodhran bliss, I'm flattered. An item. Whew.
I disagree with the come back put down, though. I like a more direct approach that lets the put downer know how I feel. I think its like what Kerri said earlier - that we should say what we think.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
"On this website we discuss music, and now we are discussing how we discuss music, or maybe we are discussing how we discuss a discussion of music".
Read it again. What we're really saying is: "stop putting people down on this website - it's hurtful and unhelpful and it has negative consequences for all".
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
I'd say that there's a fairly clearcut distinction between criticism and putting someone down. Saying what you think is one thing, saying what you think in a way that unnecessarily makes someone feel stupid is another. I'd agree with Mark, and it was certainly the substance of what Jimmy was saying, I'd imagine.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Having read to the end of this thread, I just can't get over the mental image of Michael Gill as a cheerleader!!
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Yes I agree I would prefer my criticism “blunt and uninhibited”
But there’s two types of “put-downs” being discussed.
There’s the people who love to put down others because it makes them feel good.
How often do you hear “Children can be so cruel” bollix, it’s not children it’s human nature.
It’s an inbuilt thing in us to make us feel good about ourselves, and it comes out in children because they haven’t fully developed the ability to care about others.
Parents aren’t teaching their little ones to make fun of the fat kid.
Jealously, envy, bitterness….they’re all ugly characteristics that exist in human nature.,
Sure they can be suppressed, but they come out at times, more in some, less in others, probably depends on how bad people feel about themselves.
Have you ever noticed that a w@nker is much more likely to be a w@nker on the phone, or to shout abuse and give the finger while hidden behind the wheel of his car, or hidden by the internet where eye to eye contact is gone, it’s a lot easier to vent off your anger, bitterness whatever.
I think that is a very different thing than someone bluntly saying, “ah for the love of Jaysus, you have that ar$eways”, and personally I’d prefer someone to come out and say to me, rather than tip-toe around me because they’re afraid of hurting my feelings.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by BegF
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
You have that arsways. People make ME feel bad whan they come out with stupid things. And I feel bad when I tell 'em. It's not Jealously, envy or bitterness, it's frustration at idiocy. I feel bad, they feel bad, everbody feels bad. Solution: don't be be an idiot
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Yes, that's the second kind of "put down" I'm taking about.
The one I don't mind - I'm not saying that that has anything to
do with jealously, eny or bitterness.....so in a way, you too have it arseways.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by BegF
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
What a load of arse.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
oops not you, him.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by Dow
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Why are you lot not trying to make me feel all fuzzy inside ??
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by BegF
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
I feel like an idiot for actually having spent 10 minutes reading through this. Someone put me down for it please!
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by c_ya
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Mike, you half-wit!
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by Ottery
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
John Culhane, If you ever heard me saying "how would you know?" you would be in no doubt as to what I meant.
Example, you are sitting playing your flute and Matt Molloy says "that wasn't bad". That's when you say "how would you know?".
Do you get it now.
Just glad I haven't been an idiot on this site.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Michael Gill: I was wondering if you ever had a Mr. Smiley Face, sunshine and diplomacy day.
Bodhran Bliss: You haven't? How would you know?
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
I can't do smileys
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Just move the mouse to put the pointer on top of a smiley emoticon and hold it there. A caption box appears and shows you what the key combination is. For example, this ; then this - and then this ) will give you
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
What Smiley emoticons? All I have is a square box for typing in.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
I don't think the "caption box" thing works for anything but IE, actually. Bliss, if you really want to make a smiley, for some insane reason, type a ":" (colon) and then a dash " - " and then a close parenthesis mark - " ) "
When you hit post, you'll get the yellow smiley face that matches our fav web site.
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Which is why I don't put the nose in, half the time, so I don't get the little smiley face. ;)
# Posted on April 28th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
" ) "
# Posted on April 29th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Thaks a lot. I was going to ask how I go about DIY brain surgery on myself, but I'll skip on that.
# Posted on April 29th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
You could sell tickets. I bet they'd sell very well.
# Posted on April 29th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Bliss: You would have to borrow Michael Gill's penknife for doing your own brain surgery.
"Thaks a lot." Are you sure you haven't already tried the brain surgery? (^:
# Posted on April 29th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
"-" -"
# Posted on April 29th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
What in the good name of '''''''''''''''is a close parenthesis mark
# Posted on April 29th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
)
BTW, BB, if you want do it yourself brain surgery, i do believe some gal videoed herself in the act of self-trephination a few years back. You might find that very informational.
# Posted on April 29th 2005 by sara g
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
"
# Posted on April 30th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
;-]
# Posted on April 30th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
# Posted on April 30th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Sorry just practising my smilies.
# Posted on April 30th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
The most worthwhile thing I`ve learnt from this discussion.
:-0
# Posted on April 30th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
See ?
Havent quite gotten the hang of it yet.
# Posted on April 30th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
As I tortured JFH to reveal the smiley secret with his last breath he mumbled "Bracket". And fiddlemouse had already posted it. Ah well, too late now. I blame Zina for putting me wrong. At least JFH did not die in vain.
# Posted on April 30th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick ''em up , put 'em down !
Nice one.......
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by wreckin` rea