The Session >> Discussions >> Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
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Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
I play with a good number of bluegrass groups and occasionally I will run across Irish tunes that have been adapted not only for bluegrass in general, but also for specific instruments and techniques, such as flat pick guitar, dobro, and bluegrass banjo.
Obviously, as it has already been stated in another discussion, the most common one I hear is Whiskey Before Breakfast. Another one that I hear fairly often is St. Anne's Reel. The other one that I have not been able to find listed anywhere is Soldier's Joy.
Many have been changed so much to adapt to the capability of certain instruments that they have almost become a different tune, with only snippets of the original that can be recognized. This happens a lot with the dulcimer groups that I play with as well.
I am trying to get these groups to warm up to the idea of playing more Irish tunes in their traditional forms. Some are very open, as they are quite competent on their instruments and learn quickly by ear. Others I think ar wary, mainly because I think they don't want to look foolish. Fiddle players are the first to say "Oh, yeah. Let's do that." Mandolin is right behind. The guitarists are the most reluctant, even though I tell them that I will show them how to back a traditional tune. I think if I could get enough of them interested, I could actually get a session going here where I live, which I am desperate to do. I am getting tired of learning tunes with recordings and slow down computer programs.
Does anyone have any suggestions for simpler Irish tunes that would be fairly easy to learn on bluegrass instruments? And please, I am serious about this. I would prefer that those who like to rip apart other musical genres save their sarcasm for another thread.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Well, one of the other most obvious would be Red Haired Boy, which is Little Beggerman under a different title.
Just popping into a small tunebook of transcriptions of fiddle tunes for the American old timey/bluegrass flatpicker I come up with:
The Girl I left Behind Me (orginally English, but well "Irishified")
The Wind that Shook the Barley
Sailor's Hornpipe
Fisher's Hornpipe
Miss McLeod's Reel
The Boys of Bluehill
Paddy on the Turnpike
The Humours of LIsadell
I wouldn't think that any bluegrass players would shy away from these. They're all "American" standards.
Ryan's/Cole's is packed full of Irish tunes that have made it into the American tradition (the tunes were collected in Chicago) and there's always The Fiddler's Fakebook for a look at those that are most popular right about now.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
I've never heard The Humours of Lissadell one played as an "American" tune, but I have heard all the others KFG lists in some American-music context.
Many American tunes with different names are clearly related to, or sometimes identical to, Irish tunes:
Miss McLeod's: Did you Ever See the Devil, Uncle Joe?
Boys of Bluehill: Twin Sisters, Keep the Ark A'Movin'
Fairy Dance (f2 fd f2 fd f2 fd cdeg): Old Molly Hare
Kitty's Wedding: Belle of Lexington
Temperance Reel: Waynesboro
Some tunes that many would consider American/old-time, rather than Irish, appear in the O'Neill's volumes, e.g.:
Arkansas Traveler
Turkey in the Straw
Devil's Dream
Soldier's Joy
There are several Irish hornpipes that I hear more often in American circles than Irish: e.g., Rickett's, Durang's, The Cuckoo's Nest (D major version).
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
In addition to the above here's what I have:
Teetotaller's is sometimes called the Temperance Reel
Lord MacDonald's is usually known as Leather Britches
Dusty Miller (there are many different versions of this one and the title seems to be the only common thread)
The Rights of Man Hornpipe
Devil's Dream
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
On bluegrass instruments (guitar, rhyhm mandolin, melodic 5-string, fiddle) we've successfully paired Mason's Apron & Big Sandy River, Flowers of Edinburgh & Whisky Before Breakfast, Golden Eagle HP & Big Scioto. The standard backing is fine for these major chord type tunes, but I guess a different approach would be needed for the modal melodies......
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
June5th: All the tunes I could suggest are already posted. You could try doing a bio that at least let's everyone know your general location. You might get local responses and therefore connections. There are Old Time Fiddlers' Associations throughout the Western States. There are also American Traditional Music groups. all time favorite group for old time American trad and Irish trad is Jim Taylor. He has a website and is in N. Carolina. He did two albums on Civil War music that are still carried at Amazon.com. He plays great Hammer Dulcimer. I am not as enthusiastic about Bluegrass cross over, as the ornamentation takes it beyond a trad sound. I am more into the re-enactor thang for historical sites and celebrations. Much more down to earth. Best Wishes!
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Excellent list thus far. I'd add "the merry blacksmith" as something that I know is fairly Irish, that my brother who plays old-time really likes. I don't think that's the same thing as Paddy on the Turnpike, though it's often called "Paddy on the Railway"
Then there are a few that I never know where they fall on the spectrum, if they're American tunes that some Irish musicians play, or Irish tunes that fit in well with Americans ones. Red-haired Boy, for example (I'm a fan of that paired with 'Battle of Aughrim').
For kicks, I just looked those up in the fine orange "Fiddlers Fakebook" and discovered that all 3 of those are listed int he discography as recorded by both Irish and American groups, so if you had that book, might be interesting to look through and find others like that.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Thanks everyone. This will give me a good start. The reason I mentioned the ones like Whiskey Before Breakfast and St. Anne's is because enough of the original version of the tune remained that I realized that I had played and heard it before in ITM. The others very well may have been played and I just wan't familiar enough with the tune to recognize it. Other times I think the titles may have been totally changed.
The sources and websites cited will go a long way. Thanks guys.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Aren't nearly all of the "Irish" tunes mentioned so far in this thread really from other places originally?
My impressions (of course I don't really know - I wasn't there) are that:
St. Anne's reel is French-Canadian;
Whiskey Before Breakfast is American;
Miss MacLeod's, Fairy Dance, Devil's Dream, Flowers of Edinburgh, Lord McDonald's, Mason's Apron, and maybe Soldier's Joy are Scottish;
I'm also thinking that maybe half of the hornpipes mentioned are English.
A good source might be "Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife", by Samuel P. Bayard, University of Pennsylvania Press, 1982. It's got about 700 tunes (and their variants) collected in southwest Pennsylvania and northern West Virginia between 1928 and 1963. The notes are pretty good about identifying those that are known in Scottish and Irish tradition.
A quick glance at the titles will probably lead to at least a few good candidates. I notice Blackberry Blossom and Rosin the Beau off the bat. Maybe also Green Fields of America.
He gives interesting info about Durang's Hornpipe. Durang was an actor and dancer in Pennsylvania (1768-1821). In his memoir he gives the tune and attributes it to a "German Dwarf" named Mr. Hoffmaster, in New York in 1785.
He also says that Fisher's is English.
I could go on, but it's time to head out to the session.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
That's the "Old Plank Road" which the Chieftains recorded in the U.S. Derek Bell died on that journey. They did a follow up album and DVD.
Nickel Creek does some nice cross over numbers. Otherwise, I don't hear much in Bluegrass anymore. Its more of an American Trad and Irish Trad thing to do.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Coming from an old time and bluegrass tradition I am always on the lookout for crossover tunes to introduce to those jams. There are Irish tunes that fit the bill well, in fact the first time I ever heard "Ships are Sailing" was from Vassar Clemens in the early 70's. But the majority of tunes that fit the backbeat style are of Scottish origin. If you look at some of the Shetland Island tunes you'd swear that they were old time music as the feel and the use of rhythm are very close.
On the other hand, I have begun to see a number of obvious Irish tunes in BG jams (usually at the higher levels of musicianship) such as "Haste to the Wedding" possibly because there are a number of musicians who play both and enjoy both. Jigs in particular present a challenge to the average bluegrass musician. But there are a lot of BG musicians trying out Irish music the way I did. (Just an aside, but I started Irish music because I had moved to Bluegrass Hell, i/\.e. no BG music at all and I was dying.) As a result some sessions take on an American flavor which may not be welcomed in a few circles.
If you want to find session tunes (note I did not say Irish) suitable for BG, I think that when your BG chops start perking up in a session that you have found them. There are a lot of tunes that fit both genera (and a lot of them are Canadian tunes to boot) and can be found in North America and Ireland in sessions and seemed to be accepted. On the other hand I have gone to a session in the States where the session leader would not allow "Soldier's Joy" and other tunes found in O'Neill's because they were not "Irish" enough (although the session leader was "German" enough <G>), but that kind of control is fairly rare. In our session (which rotates the choice in a clockwise fashion) we play some old time music because we are encouraging people to participate and to learn. We go on and play more Irish tunes and no one makes a fuss.
Of course, this is not a discussion of "proper" sessioning (yet) so I think you will be able to find good tunes. Try "Ships are Sailing" at 220 bpm, it works fairly well.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Mike, that sounds like a fun kind of bluegrass session. Down here in the Confederacy, bluegrass musicians tend to be less eclectic (more narrowly fanatical). On the few occasions when I’ve played a jig in a bluegrass or old-time session, either nobody joined in or somebody started strumming chunk-a-da chunk-a-da on a guitar so loud I could barely hear myself.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
The session I described was in Georgia but it was a very high level session with a number of professional mandolinists in it. I was surprised that they played it but went along. Later I played "Lark in the Morning" which was also accepted. In this session was a mandocello, several mandolas and mandolins and the usual fiddles, banjos, dobros, etc.
I agree, not everyone can play these tunes unheard (or would want to) but this was an exceptional group of musicians who loved to stretch themselves.
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Mike, I just looked at your website. If you've been playing plectrum banjo for a while, you might have known my late friend, Perry Bechtel ("The Greatest of Them All," as his one album modestly called him).
Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
I play with a good number of bluegrass groups and occasionally I will run across Irish tunes that have been adapted not only for bluegrass in general, but also for specific instruments and techniques, such as flat pick guitar, dobro, and bluegrass banjo.
Obviously, as it has already been stated in another discussion, the most common one I hear is Whiskey Before Breakfast. Another one that I hear fairly often is St. Anne's Reel. The other one that I have not been able to find listed anywhere is Soldier's Joy.
Many have been changed so much to adapt to the capability of certain instruments that they have almost become a different tune, with only snippets of the original that can be recognized. This happens a lot with the dulcimer groups that I play with as well.
I am trying to get these groups to warm up to the idea of playing more Irish tunes in their traditional forms. Some are very open, as they are quite competent on their instruments and learn quickly by ear. Others I think ar wary, mainly because I think they don't want to look foolish. Fiddle players are the first to say "Oh, yeah. Let's do that." Mandolin is right behind. The guitarists are the most reluctant, even though I tell them that I will show them how to back a traditional tune. I think if I could get enough of them interested, I could actually get a session going here where I live, which I am desperate to do. I am getting tired of learning tunes with recordings and slow down computer programs.
Does anyone have any suggestions for simpler Irish tunes that would be fairly easy to learn on bluegrass instruments? And please, I am serious about this. I would prefer that those who like to rip apart other musical genres save their sarcasm for another thread.
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by June5th
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Well, one of the other most obvious would be Red Haired Boy, which is Little Beggerman under a different title.
Just popping into a small tunebook of transcriptions of fiddle tunes for the American old timey/bluegrass flatpicker I come up with:
The Girl I left Behind Me (orginally English, but well "Irishified")
The Wind that Shook the Barley
Sailor's Hornpipe
Fisher's Hornpipe
Miss McLeod's Reel
The Boys of Bluehill
Paddy on the Turnpike
The Humours of LIsadell
I wouldn't think that any bluegrass players would shy away from these. They're all "American" standards.
Ryan's/Cole's is packed full of Irish tunes that have made it into the American tradition (the tunes were collected in Chicago) and there's always The Fiddler's Fakebook for a look at those that are most popular right about now.
KFG
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by KFG
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
I've never heard The Humours of Lissadell one played as an "American" tune, but I have heard all the others KFG lists in some American-music context.
Many American tunes with different names are clearly related to, or sometimes identical to, Irish tunes:
Miss McLeod's: Did you Ever See the Devil, Uncle Joe?
Boys of Bluehill: Twin Sisters, Keep the Ark A'Movin'
Fairy Dance (f2 fd f2 fd f2 fd cdeg): Old Molly Hare
Kitty's Wedding: Belle of Lexington
Temperance Reel: Waynesboro
Some tunes that many would consider American/old-time, rather than Irish, appear in the O'Neill's volumes, e.g.:
Arkansas Traveler
Turkey in the Straw
Devil's Dream
Soldier's Joy
There are several Irish hornpipes that I hear more often in American circles than Irish: e.g., Rickett's, Durang's, The Cuckoo's Nest (D major version).
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by tedium
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
In addition to the above here's what I have:
Teetotaller's is sometimes called the Temperance Reel
Lord MacDonald's is usually known as Leather Britches
Dusty Miller (there are many different versions of this one and the title seems to be the only common thread)
The Rights of Man Hornpipe
Devil's Dream
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by glennP
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
On bluegrass instruments (guitar, rhyhm mandolin, melodic 5-string, fiddle) we've successfully paired Mason's Apron & Big Sandy River, Flowers of Edinburgh & Whisky Before Breakfast, Golden Eagle HP & Big Scioto. The standard backing is fine for these major chord type tunes, but I guess a different approach would be needed for the modal melodies......
Jim Dorans
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
June5th: All the tunes I could suggest are already posted. You could try doing a bio that at least let's everyone know your general location. You might get local responses and therefore connections. There are Old Time Fiddlers' Associations throughout the Western States. There are also American Traditional Music groups. all time favorite group for old time American trad and Irish trad is Jim Taylor. He has a website and is in N. Carolina. He did two albums on Civil War music that are still carried at Amazon.com. He plays great Hammer Dulcimer. I am not as enthusiastic about Bluegrass cross over, as the ornamentation takes it beyond a trad sound. I am more into the re-enactor thang for historical sites and celebrations. Much more down to earth. Best Wishes!
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Excellent list thus far. I'd add "the merry blacksmith" as something that I know is fairly Irish, that my brother who plays old-time really likes. I don't think that's the same thing as Paddy on the Turnpike, though it's often called "Paddy on the Railway"
Then there are a few that I never know where they fall on the spectrum, if they're American tunes that some Irish musicians play, or Irish tunes that fit in well with Americans ones. Red-haired Boy, for example (I'm a fan of that paired with 'Battle of Aughrim').
For kicks, I just looked those up in the fine orange "Fiddlers Fakebook" and discovered that all 3 of those are listed int he discography as recorded by both Irish and American groups, so if you had that book, might be interesting to look through and find others like that.
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by concertinette
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Thanks everyone. This will give me a good start. The reason I mentioned the ones like Whiskey Before Breakfast and St. Anne's is because enough of the original version of the tune remained that I realized that I had played and heard it before in ITM. The others very well may have been played and I just wan't familiar enough with the tune to recognize it. Other times I think the titles may have been totally changed.
The sources and websites cited will go a long way. Thanks guys.
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by June5th
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Aren't nearly all of the "Irish" tunes mentioned so far in this thread really from other places originally?
My impressions (of course I don't really know - I wasn't there) are that:
St. Anne's reel is French-Canadian;
Whiskey Before Breakfast is American;
Miss MacLeod's, Fairy Dance, Devil's Dream, Flowers of Edinburgh, Lord McDonald's, Mason's Apron, and maybe Soldier's Joy are Scottish;
I'm also thinking that maybe half of the hornpipes mentioned are English.
A good source might be "Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife", by Samuel P. Bayard, University of Pennsylvania Press, 1982. It's got about 700 tunes (and their variants) collected in southwest Pennsylvania and northern West Virginia between 1928 and 1963. The notes are pretty good about identifying those that are known in Scottish and Irish tradition.
A quick glance at the titles will probably lead to at least a few good candidates. I notice Blackberry Blossom and Rosin the Beau off the bat. Maybe also Green Fields of America.
He gives interesting info about Durang's Hornpipe. Durang was an actor and dancer in Pennsylvania (1768-1821). In his memoir he gives the tune and attributes it to a "German Dwarf" named Mr. Hoffmaster, in New York in 1785.
He also says that Fisher's is English.
I could go on, but it's time to head out to the session.
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
G'day,
Have a look at the "Chieftains" DVD. I think it's called "The Long Plank Road."
Regards,
Tony Friel - Hervey Bay - Queensland.
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by friel
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
I don't notice a lot of Irish/Scottish based tunes in bluegrass anymore. Thery're not as suitable for showing off as the more blues-influenced tunes.
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
That's the "Old Plank Road" which the Chieftains recorded in the U.S. Derek Bell died on that journey. They did a follow up album and DVD.
Nickel Creek does some nice cross over numbers. Otherwise, I don't hear much in Bluegrass anymore. Its more of an American Trad and Irish Trad thing to do.
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Coming from an old time and bluegrass tradition I am always on the lookout for crossover tunes to introduce to those jams. There are Irish tunes that fit the bill well, in fact the first time I ever heard "Ships are Sailing" was from Vassar Clemens in the early 70's. But the majority of tunes that fit the backbeat style are of Scottish origin. If you look at some of the Shetland Island tunes you'd swear that they were old time music as the feel and the use of rhythm are very close.
On the other hand, I have begun to see a number of obvious Irish tunes in BG jams (usually at the higher levels of musicianship) such as "Haste to the Wedding" possibly because there are a number of musicians who play both and enjoy both. Jigs in particular present a challenge to the average bluegrass musician. But there are a lot of BG musicians trying out Irish music the way I did. (Just an aside, but I started Irish music because I had moved to Bluegrass Hell, i/\.e. no BG music at all and I was dying.) As a result some sessions take on an American flavor which may not be welcomed in a few circles.
If you want to find session tunes (note I did not say Irish) suitable for BG, I think that when your BG chops start perking up in a session that you have found them. There are a lot of tunes that fit both genera (and a lot of them are Canadian tunes to boot) and can be found in North America and Ireland in sessions and seemed to be accepted. On the other hand I have gone to a session in the States where the session leader would not allow "Soldier's Joy" and other tunes found in O'Neill's because they were not "Irish" enough (although the session leader was "German" enough <G>), but that kind of control is fairly rare. In our session (which rotates the choice in a clockwise fashion) we play some old time music because we are encouraging people to participate and to learn. We go on and play more Irish tunes and no one makes a fuss.
Of course, this is not a discussion of "proper" sessioning (yet) so I think you will be able to find good tunes. Try "Ships are Sailing" at 220 bpm, it works fairly well.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/apr05/irishtenor.html
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Mike, that sounds like a fun kind of bluegrass session. Down here in the Confederacy, bluegrass musicians tend to be less eclectic (more narrowly fanatical). On the few occasions when I’ve played a jig in a bluegrass or old-time session, either nobody joined in or somebody started strumming chunk-a-da chunk-a-da on a guitar so loud I could barely hear myself.
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
The session I described was in Georgia but it was a very high level session with a number of professional mandolinists in it. I was surprised that they played it but went along. Later I played "Lark in the Morning" which was also accepted. In this session was a mandocello, several mandolas and mandolins and the usual fiddles, banjos, dobros, etc.
I agree, not everyone can play these tunes unheard (or would want to) but this was an exceptional group of musicians who loved to stretch themselves.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/apr05/irishtenor.html
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Was it at Everett's Barn?
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Mike, I just looked at your website. If you've been playing plectrum banjo for a while, you might have known my late friend, Perry Bechtel ("The Greatest of Them All," as his one album modestly called him).
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Anyone know or have a list of specific Irish tunes used in bluegrass or American folk music?
Tanya would never have countenanced all this talk about Bluegrass!
Where is she now when she's needed most?
# Posted on April 27th 2005 by Geoff Pollitt