this is just a poll for an interest which is semi-pro ( i work for an animal charityI
how many of you ITM enthusiasts follow an ethical musical career ..do you use synthetic skins, strings etc
if you have no interest in animal rights then please do not respond or be offended, I am interested only in how many people take animal rights into consideration with their instruments ... cat gut , shellac, ivory, horn, skins etc http://www.deffgoat.co.uk/FCK/
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with your phrasing of "an ethical musical career," but. . .
I've been a vegetarian for more than 30 years. I use synthetic strings, skins, et al (:actually I'm rather fond of wooden headed banjos and drums) and avoid such things as shellac and silk. No kill horn and leather is available though, and I'm not particularly averse to using it if I'm sure of the source (like if I "made" it myself). Horns shed naturally and animals die of causes other than hunting or the slaugtherhouse.
My current fiddle, being of the standard, classical variety, is necessarily joined with hide glue. Sooner or later it shall be replaced with one of my own design and construction that is not.
I limit my use of wool, but do not refrain from it entirely. Since I spin, knit, weave and sew a bit myself I can at least take some steps regarding using more "ethical" sources though.
I do not "own" pets, although there is a cat who has chosen to live with me of her own free will (and averse to my will at first), and is free to leave at virtually any time, which she often does, but has kept coming back for 18 years now.
I spent just this afternoon reading John Robbins' "Diet for a New America," which, for some reason, I first came across yesterday. An interesting, but somewhat flawed book. Still, I suppose I'd recommend it, with reservations, to someone who wanted to read about the issues.
Given the focus of the book he naturally doesn't deal with issues like shellac and silk, and I don't think many people even realize that shellac is an animal product or that the first step in silk production is boiling the caterpiller "alive."
However, I refrain from making a big deal about other people's choices in this regard and there are people who have known, and eaten with me, for years without having a clue as to my vegetarianism. If the issue comes up I'll speak my mind without reservation, but nothing is more annoying than a crusader.
I hope I give no personal offense, but I do tend to view most of the PETA people as "assholes." YMMV.
There is such thing as a vegetable alternative to true shellac, made from seeds of some kind. I think this is sold as 'shellac', so it may not be possible to know which kind you are getting - perhaps even a mixture.
I make stringed instruments - I am also a vegetarian. I confess to using animal glue for certain operations - not because of any allegiance to tradition, but because it has certain favourable properties (not least its strength) which no other glues I know of can rival. But I would be surprised if it were not possible to make some kind of plant-based glue that would do the job. Does it not make sense to stick a plant based material (i.e. wood) to a plant-based material (i.e. more wood) with some other plant-based material (i.e.hypothetical vegetable glue). I hope that some biochemist, somewhere, is on the case as I write.
I have used bone with a clear conscience, on the basis that it is a by-product of the meat industry - a cow was never killed with a view to making bridge saddles. Shell products (mother-of-pearl, abalone) could be got from empty shells, but I suspect they are usually not - I prefer wood inlays, anyway. Obviously, tortoise shell and armadillo shell are out. It is time Western instrument makers started exploring the merits of coconut shell and other similar materials.
As for timber, I have been making a lot of visits to my local council wood dump over the last year-and-a-bit. Now, most trees are felled because they *need* to be felled, usually because they are sick, so a lot of the wood there is partly rotten. Furthermore, for ease of transportation, it is usually sawn up into pieces too small to be of much use. Nevertheless, I have managed to salvage several pieces that, I hope, will one day be mandolins, or parts thereof - it all depends on how they stand up to the drying process. In the mean time, I have had to buy most timber from suppliers (who claim that it comes from sustainable sources), although I have managed to salvage some nice wood from skips. Banner posts from anti-war marches can make good bracing wood as well - even soundboards, if you don't mind doing a lot of joining.
"If you have no interest in animal rights then pleae do not respond or be offended, I an interested only in people who take animal rights into consideration with their instruments"
Well, it would seem that with that criteria, you've pretty well assured yourself of a 100% response in favor of animal rights.
A minor nit: FWIW, "gut strings" are - and always have been - made of sheep gut, not cat gut.
The production of goods and services is such a tangled web, how can anyone ever know what ethics - or lack thereof - might be represented in a final product? I'm not arguing against personal boycotts (I have my own), but we are all deeply embedded in a complex system that makes it practically impossible to truly and purely live according to one's own ethics and morality. I think this cognitive dissonance makes us all a little (or a lot) crazy.
I try to avoid using animal products where possible. I'm not obsessive about it, and I would never expect another person who isn't a vegetarian to be concerned about it (and yes...I'm quite aware that it's not possible to be "100% cruelty-free"...I just do what I can and figure that every little bit makes a difference).
The reason I say I'm not obsessive about it is it's only one part of what I consider when I evaluate an instrument. For example, when I bought my husband a bodhran, I looked long and hard to find one with a synthetic head that sounded as good as one with a goatskin head...had I not been able to find one I thought was appropriate, I would have either ditched the idea of buying him a bodhran entirely or gotten a traditional one.
And, like Laitch, I have no use for PETA, despite the fact that I've been a vegetarian for more than 17 years and once served as the executive director of EarthSave International (John Robbins' and Howard Lyman's organization). OTT fanaticism never won a convert, in my experience, and all PETA does is make the rest of us look like amadans.
I suppose that if I lived in Tibet, I would try to fit into their style of Budhism. I read the Dalai Lama's books. In my younger years, I did have an obsessive period. I found it interrupted life. I have been vegetarian for many years. However, I now have bigger issues, such as Bush.
I play a goatskin bodhran. Synthetic heads sound awful. I suppose if I were still obsessive, I would want the skin of a goat that died of natural causes. But then I can picture a bodhran drum circle around a goat playing as loud as possible until the goat fainted and died. My Octave Mandolin is 100 percent non animal. (^:
Deffgoat: How do you feel about vintage instruments? For example if you have a concertina or a violin from made in 1923 a long time before animal rights came to public attention, would you dispose of it simply because of your stance on animal rights?
"And what does the horse suffer, other than a little embarrassment?"
Death. Horsehair is not harvested like wool. It is harvested like leather. Mongolians are horse eaters. Canadian cats and dogs are horse eaters.
Even wool production is not no kill. The economics of raising sheep forces killing. Local angora and alpaca are relatively safe from a no kill perspective, because they are rasied by "fanciers," but they are also notoriously expensive fibers.
Of course cotton cultivation results in more loss of animal life, on a per life basis, than just about anything else, not to mention the devestation it causes to the environment.
There are no easy answers. Anyone who supplies you with one is either ignorant or lying. If you buy synthetic shoes to avoid wearing leather, just google around for pictures of an oil spill and the petroleum cracking plants in north Jersey (that's the "new" one, for the folks across the pond from me) stand where there used to be vigin forest and its attendant animal life.
"I don't eat anything that eats meat."
They feed cows cows here. Pigs and chickens are natural omnivores.
cat gut ?
cat gut ?
this is just a poll for an interest which is semi-pro ( i work for an animal charityI
how many of you ITM enthusiasts follow an ethical musical career ..do you use synthetic skins, strings etc
if you have no interest in animal rights then please do not respond or be offended, I am interested only in how many people take animal rights into consideration with their instruments ... cat gut , shellac, ivory, horn, skins etc
http://www.deffgoat.co.uk/FCK/
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by DeffGoat
Re: cat gut ?
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with your phrasing of "an ethical musical career," but. . .
I've been a vegetarian for more than 30 years. I use synthetic strings, skins, et al (:actually I'm rather fond of wooden headed banjos and drums) and avoid such things as shellac and silk. No kill horn and leather is available though, and I'm not particularly averse to using it if I'm sure of the source (like if I "made" it myself). Horns shed naturally and animals die of causes other than hunting or the slaugtherhouse.
My current fiddle, being of the standard, classical variety, is necessarily joined with hide glue. Sooner or later it shall be replaced with one of my own design and construction that is not.
I limit my use of wool, but do not refrain from it entirely. Since I spin, knit, weave and sew a bit myself I can at least take some steps regarding using more "ethical" sources though.
I do not "own" pets, although there is a cat who has chosen to live with me of her own free will (and averse to my will at first), and is free to leave at virtually any time, which she often does, but has kept coming back for 18 years now.
I spent just this afternoon reading John Robbins' "Diet for a New America," which, for some reason, I first came across yesterday. An interesting, but somewhat flawed book. Still, I suppose I'd recommend it, with reservations, to someone who wanted to read about the issues.
Given the focus of the book he naturally doesn't deal with issues like shellac and silk, and I don't think many people even realize that shellac is an animal product or that the first step in silk production is boiling the caterpiller "alive."
However, I refrain from making a big deal about other people's choices in this regard and there are people who have known, and eaten with me, for years without having a clue as to my vegetarianism. If the issue comes up I'll speak my mind without reservation, but nothing is more annoying than a crusader.
I hope I give no personal offense, but I do tend to view most of the PETA people as "assholes." YMMV.
KFG
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by KFG
Re: cat gut ?
There is such thing as a vegetable alternative to true shellac, made from seeds of some kind. I think this is sold as 'shellac', so it may not be possible to know which kind you are getting - perhaps even a mixture.
I make stringed instruments - I am also a vegetarian. I confess to using animal glue for certain operations - not because of any allegiance to tradition, but because it has certain favourable properties (not least its strength) which no other glues I know of can rival. But I would be surprised if it were not possible to make some kind of plant-based glue that would do the job. Does it not make sense to stick a plant based material (i.e. wood) to a plant-based material (i.e. more wood) with some other plant-based material (i.e.hypothetical vegetable glue). I hope that some biochemist, somewhere, is on the case as I write.
I have used bone with a clear conscience, on the basis that it is a by-product of the meat industry - a cow was never killed with a view to making bridge saddles. Shell products (mother-of-pearl, abalone) could be got from empty shells, but I suspect they are usually not - I prefer wood inlays, anyway. Obviously, tortoise shell and armadillo shell are out. It is time Western instrument makers started exploring the merits of coconut shell and other similar materials.
As for timber, I have been making a lot of visits to my local council wood dump over the last year-and-a-bit. Now, most trees are felled because they *need* to be felled, usually because they are sick, so a lot of the wood there is partly rotten. Furthermore, for ease of transportation, it is usually sawn up into pieces too small to be of much use. Nevertheless, I have managed to salvage several pieces that, I hope, will one day be mandolins, or parts thereof - it all depends on how they stand up to the drying process. In the mean time, I have had to buy most timber from suppliers (who claim that it comes from sustainable sources), although I have managed to salvage some nice wood from skips. Banner posts from anti-war marches can make good bracing wood as well - even soundboards, if you don't mind doing a lot of joining.
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by granama
Re: cat gut ?
"If you have no interest in animal rights then pleae do not respond or be offended, I an interested only in people who take animal rights into consideration with their instruments"
Well, it would seem that with that criteria, you've pretty well assured yourself of a 100% response in favor of animal rights.
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: cat gut ?
A minor nit: FWIW, "gut strings" are - and always have been - made of sheep gut, not cat gut.
The production of goods and services is such a tangled web, how can anyone ever know what ethics - or lack thereof - might be represented in a final product? I'm not arguing against personal boycotts (I have my own), but we are all deeply embedded in a complex system that makes it practically impossible to truly and purely live according to one's own ethics and morality. I think this cognitive dissonance makes us all a little (or a lot) crazy.
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: cat gut ?
Yeah, I'm against money-based economies, myself. I have to live with going against that every day, too.
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: cat gut ?
Peta can go pound sand.
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by joesmith
Re: cat gut ?
I try to avoid using animal products where possible. I'm not obsessive about it, and I would never expect another person who isn't a vegetarian to be concerned about it (and yes...I'm quite aware that it's not possible to be "100% cruelty-free"...I just do what I can and figure that every little bit makes a difference).
The reason I say I'm not obsessive about it is it's only one part of what I consider when I evaluate an instrument. For example, when I bought my husband a bodhran, I looked long and hard to find one with a synthetic head that sounded as good as one with a goatskin head...had I not been able to find one I thought was appropriate, I would have either ditched the idea of buying him a bodhran entirely or gotten a traditional one.
And, like Laitch, I have no use for PETA, despite the fact that I've been a vegetarian for more than 17 years and once served as the executive director of EarthSave International (John Robbins' and Howard Lyman's organization). OTT fanaticism never won a convert, in my experience, and all PETA does is make the rest of us look like amadans.
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by MacTireRua
Re: cat gut ?
Just this evening I renewed my membership in PETA*.
* - People Eating Tasty Animals.
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by Tunes!
Re: cat gut ?
There's still no real substitute for horse hair for bows.
Trevor
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: cat gut ?
I suppose that if I lived in Tibet, I would try to fit into their style of Budhism. I read the Dalai Lama's books. In my younger years, I did have an obsessive period. I found it interrupted life. I have been vegetarian for many years. However, I now have bigger issues, such as Bush.
I play a goatskin bodhran. Synthetic heads sound awful. I suppose if I were still obsessive, I would want the skin of a goat that died of natural causes. But then I can picture a bodhran drum circle around a goat playing as loud as possible until the goat fainted and died. My Octave Mandolin is 100 percent non animal. (^:
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: cat gut ?
Deffgoat: How do you feel about vintage instruments? For example if you have a concertina or a violin from made in 1923 a long time before animal rights came to public attention, would you dispose of it simply because of your stance on animal rights?
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by Ptollemy
Re: cat gut ?
"There's still no real substitute for horse hair for bows.
Trevor"
And what does the horse suffer, other than a little embarrassment?
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: cat gut ?
I'm a second degree vegetarian.
I don't eat anything that eats meat.
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: cat gut ?
"And what does the horse suffer, other than a little embarrassment?"
Death. Horsehair is not harvested like wool. It is harvested like leather. Mongolians are horse eaters. Canadian cats and dogs are horse eaters.
Even wool production is not no kill. The economics of raising sheep forces killing. Local angora and alpaca are relatively safe from a no kill perspective, because they are rasied by "fanciers," but they are also notoriously expensive fibers.
Of course cotton cultivation results in more loss of animal life, on a per life basis, than just about anything else, not to mention the devestation it causes to the environment.
There are no easy answers. Anyone who supplies you with one is either ignorant or lying. If you buy synthetic shoes to avoid wearing leather, just google around for pictures of an oil spill and the petroleum cracking plants in north Jersey (that's the "new" one, for the folks across the pond from me) stand where there used to be vigin forest and its attendant animal life.
"I don't eat anything that eats meat."
They feed cows cows here. Pigs and chickens are natural omnivores.
KFG
# Posted on April 25th 2005 by KFG