I'm writing a freelance travel article for the American market, with advice on how someone interested in ITM can find and enjoy a trad session in Ireland. The audience is tourists for whom the music is really secondary to their other reasons for visiting Ireland . . . the real neophytes.
To find sessions that match their travel itinerary, the article obviously recommends searching "thesession.org," but I want to include a list of some particularly welcoming places for tourists, but not tourist traps -- and here's the kicker, where the sessions are everynight, year round, since timing a trip so that you are able to be in Galway on Tuesdays etc., can be hard for a tourist. The list so far includes The Brazen Head and Gogarty's in Dublin, the Scotsman in Donegal, Matt Molloy's in Westport, and An Droichead Beag (The Small Bridge) in Dingle. Anyone have other recommendations, particularly in other tourist destination towns -- or comments on those I've mentioned? (They need to be seven-days, year-round, sessions, not just summer season.)
Anyone have any advice for a neophyte who really wants to get the most out of their first sessions? This can range from the practical to the philosophical.
For instance, I'm recommending that if they want a seat or want to be close to the music, arrive early and ask where the musicians set up, so they don't inadvertently stake out a spot in advance only to be chased off once the musicians arrive. This may sound self-evident, but remember: most Americans are used to have a separate stage area in bars where live music is played, and are surprised when the musicians sit down in the middle of the pub. . . .
Any advice to help interested tourists quickly get into the spirit of a session (and avoid inadvertantly detracting from it).
Any anecdotes of problematic tourists would be interesting to hear too . . . .
If you do this, you might want to consider a good dose of listener (punter) etiquette so you don't produce an undesirable result in the music pubs you mention in your article. I have a page about such things as it relates to our local pub here in San Francisco, but you might find some of it useful. The page starts out with musician etiquette, but scroll down and you'll find the punter etiquette part.
When we were last in Ireland we couldn't believe it when one lady (a tourist) was leaning so far over the top of the flute player with her video camera (to film the other platers) that he had to stop playing for risk of getting hit on the head with her camera. (He was a lot more restrained than I would have been!)
You might want to suggest that the tourist find a session at home before they go to Ireland. Unbelievable as it may seem, the tourist may not like ITM played in a session. You might also suggest that they search out sing along sessions at home, which they might find more fun than just listening to tunes and songs sung solo. There are lots of these sing alongs in Ireland and they seem pretty popular with the tourists. No reason that the first session someone goes to has to be in Ireland when there are plenty of sessions around this country that could give them some clues about what happens at a session as well as what the etiquette is.
But I would also say that it is difficult to imagine someone looking for a spontaneous first session experience with a "guidebook". If someone is really interested in the music, wherever they are, on whatever night, all they need to do is ask about a session. If there is one, fine. If not, maybe they'll find one the next night. If these tourists are avoiding "tourist traps", they may need to be somewhat flexible.
I know what you mean! At one session in Dingle, this one tourist stood in front of the musicians with her digital video camera and zoomed in and out on the musicians by physically by walking up closer, and then walking back and walking forward at a different angle, and walking back -- she did this for about 30 minutes without stopping. The musicians ignored her completely, but I think the rest of us were about to resort to violence.
She seemed generally interested in the music -- actually almost ecstatic in her enthusiasm -- which is one reason I think she survived unharmed. She was just absolutely clueless. Not sure how an adult could be that clueless, but she does get credit for inspiring this article!
Cruise's in Ennis has music every night, at least in the Summer.
And lads, please, would you stop being so bitter and suspicious and thinking every "uniniated" person is going to wreck your session. Even as a joke that's wearing a bit thin. The man is trying to write an article for people who want to hear a few tunes without dedicating their whole lives to it.
People on holiday in Ireland wanting to hear some tunes. How awful! This must be prevented at all costs. Only the iniated can possibly be responsible enough to stand in a pub and listen to some tunes.
Get a pair of glasses, Michael!
It's "Jams" not "James" and her real name is Helen. Otherwise, I agree. I wouldn't want one written about Scotland either unless it's focused on the McEwan's Session venues which the rest of us can avoid.
Check with Steve Power at Shanna Quay in Adare. I haven't been back in two years but the last I heard there was music back in Adare area. I don't know the schedule or even if it is every night but Steve would know. You can mention that Ed from NJ suggested you contact him if you like. There must be some in Limerick City. When I was last in Kilkenny City there was a lot of music going on as well.
Some advice I can offer is to caution your readers about requesting songs like Danny Boy and interrupting the players in the middle of a tune or song. Last night whilst I was singing, and frankly lost in, “The Last Two Island Swans” I was saved by Colleen from an abrupt tap on the shoulder by a lass that was enjoying the brew quite a bit and wanted to ask me a question.
I think the advice about attending a session in their area, if possible, prior to traveling is sound. You could also suggest that the readers approach the musicians, during a break to be sure, to see if they have any CDs of themselves for sale. I would think that the musicians would enjoy making the sale and the folks would enjoy the memory each time they listen to it. Some of my favorite CDs are those I bought right from the musician. Not necessarily because the music is better but more so because listening takes me back to the place and time. Past this I would tell your readers to enjoy themselves, the craic, and the music.
Good luck with the article and please do post it here when done if you are able.
I do think a few pointers on photo and video / tape recording etiquette would be helpful for all tourists in all situations. Most tourists don't stop to think how they would feel if they were just going about their daily business and a flock of camera-happy foreigners descended on them, snapping and clicking away. I'd be really irritated, personally. Sorry to have to observe that, next to the Japanese, Americans are the world's most obtrusive camera clickers. Give them a few tips on the right way and the wrong way to immortalize their holiday. (ie. a step-by-step guide on how to ask permission.)
What!? Next to Japanese? You kidding, Kerri. The most obtrusive camera clickers are definitely Americans, you know. Well, it's true at least in Ireland. Maybe you confused Japanese with Chinese in some other places.
I think it's better to try to chat with musicians just in front of you, rather than to take photos. Not all of them are very friendly, and it can be a bit hard to understand their accents and jokes at first. But some will give you interesting stories about their music.
Don't forget to remind readers that people who play wind instruments are just as talkative as anybody else, and they love a bit of a chat while they're playing.
No, Japanese tourists take WAY more photos than Americans, they're just easier to excuse because they're cute and charming about it, and they are gone five minutes after their tour bus arrives.
American tourists are just generally more... what's the word... "p*ssy" about things in general, like if the waiter doesn't smile, or there's a hair in the bathtub, or there's no Heineken on tap. And they seem to believe more that it's their god-given constitutional right to snap photos of people as if they're not really people but background actors in a Hollywood blockbuster.
(and, no, if you're american and have a lick of sense while travelling, I'm not talking about you, PERSONALLY, I'm talking about your neighbours.)
You can blame Hollywood for the phenomenon of people talking to musicians while they're playing. I always want to kick the TV when they show someone playing something very difficult and sensitive and a PI, or whatever the hero of the story is, will walk up and start asking about some suspect or person of interest that might have been in the place. Clueless people watching will come away thinking it's ok, and they even think flute players are capable of talking whilst playing. Personally, I just close my eyes when I see one of them approaching. If that doesn't work -- I pretend I'm deaf. (This actually worked once.)
I usually tell the talkers and handshakers that It's just as well that I am not a brain surgeon.
As for photographers and cine cameras, we just assume that they are income tax spies and confiscate the film.
We get a lot of tourists at one of our sessions during the summer, and the people are usually great, or else afraid of us as we fight amongst ourselves.
There is lots of music in Westport apart from Molloy's, sessions in Louisburgh, out the coast, on Sunday, Wednesday and Saturday, and maybe Thursday, so you won't have to stick to the well known pubs, which sometimes are disappointing. The most famous ITM pub near me attracts people from everywhere, but I haven't heard any music in it for 30 years.
When I was in Ireland (a long time ago) my family and I toured the outskirts of the entire country (including Northern Ireland) with a rent a car rather than with a tour bus. This allowed us to explore the country at our whim. At that point in my life ITM was the furthest thought on my and my family’s minds. We were the typical tourists…in Ireland to look at some of the sites (old castles, Book of Kells, etc.) and connect with our cultural past. In Co. Clair we visited Bunratty Castle and Folk Park. We were interested enough in the sites at the park that we decided to spend the day in this area of Ireland, and at night we returned to the folk park to eat a communal dinner (gruel of some sort) with several other tourists and listen to some ITM and watch some dancers. Although other tourists were present I would not consider it a tourist trap. At this particular event the other tourists provided comfort (I read some "etiquette" on ITM sessions, & now I’m scared to attend sessions...so many rules) and conversation. The ambiance, as I remember it, was a mix between medieval and traditional. Within a very simple barn hard wooden benches were placed before several large unclothed wooden tables to support communal seating/eating. Very simple food. It was fun and memorable. I still have the advertisement:
“The Bunratty Barn is the venue for your traditional Irish Ceili and features superb traditional Irish music and dance.”
This type of venue and venues similar to the Bunratty Castle and Folk Park is worth additional research.
Having just returned from Ireland, and spent 3 nights in Doolin, I can recommend any and all of their 3 pubs (O'Connor's, McGann's and McDermott's), which each have sessions every night. I wouldn't want to inflict more clueless tourists on them than they already get, but if the punters in question are sufficiently educated, and can remain humble and unobtrusive, Doolin is the place.
Just as Pete D confesses to being scared to go to sessions because there are too many rules, on comes Fyffer Guy bemoaning clueless tourists.
Tourists contribute a lot to the Irish economy, and are not too bad nowadays. In the past I can remember Yanks arguing about the cost of shilleag... shilleagh... those stick things. "Yea, I got this cheaper in Killarney than you did in Glendalough". They have learnt from past mistakes. I have also met a number of intelligent (sic) Yanks, and have been friendly with some of them for years.
These tourists should be welcome at all sessions, although most prefer sessions with songs as well. I mean there is nobody from Ireland in Matt Molloys but you can still get a good session.
Places like Killarney used to have Irish nights and they were dreadful, merely exploiting green misty eyed Yanks and propagating a "Quiet Man" vision of Ireland. Cracking film mind you for all its faults, and has and still does provide employment for many in the Cong area.
Finally Pete D, just go along and play what you know, listen and learn, and if you meet any boring purists, you can always resort to the good old whistle through the neck, with a twist. That's the name of a tune, honest. Bb whistles are best for this.
bodhran bliss -- I was at Matt Malloy's just Easter Monday, and sat with a couple from Westmeath and two young guys (late 20s) who were originally from Westport, back home to visit their parents during Easter week. There seemed to be others, although there's no question 50 percent of the room was filled by a tour bus of American college-age kids.
Was this a fluke, Irish people in Matt Malloys? Because of the Easter Bank Holiday? I'd really like to know -- is it normally a place the Irish avoid?
By the way, thanks everyone for the input. I appreciate it all and am finding it all helpful -- even where the board disagrees!
Anyway, Pete D, I went to the Bunratty Castle for their shtick in 1990 when the Nephews were over for a few days to meet up with us. We thought it would be a fun thing for them to do -- and it was, but it was far from being anything that resembled a session. What goes on there is show business, and it’s specifically designed for tourists. If you’re looking for something fun to do with the family it’s a good bet. If it’s a night of ITM you seek – Ennis is just down the road.
Just yesterday I was speaking with my aunt & uncle about their first-ever trip to Ireland... recommending where to go, what to do, etc., as they've only a week in counrty.
After reading this thread, I've got to be sure to call them back and rescind my recommendations for visiting any pubs with traditional music.
They'd be overcome by all the *(&@(*&@ rules.
And who would have thought it was supposed to be an enjoyable past time, to listen to the music.
God could only help them if they somehow got their instructions wrong.
By the way, the folks up at Gallagher's (just off the square) in Westport get a good chuckle out of the tourists who, like zombies, head into Malloys, thinking they're sure to find Matt, playing away on his flute, on any given day of the week.
Not realizing that the Chieftains actually tour the world for half the year or more.
I haven't seen much here that looks like " *(&@(*&@ rules". The only rule is to behave as if you've been invited to a party by the musicians, not as if you are at a theme park where the musicians are hired to entertain you. It's really very simple, but surprisingly non-obvious.
Yep, keep scaring away those "annoying tourists", and see how fast the pub owners figure out why.
Invited to a party by musicians? That's pretty arrogant, in my opinion, given that the musicians are there at the invite (in most cases) of the owners.
Again - what would a session be without the listeners? You'd all be staying home.
There's no doubting that some overzealous types can ruin a good session, but let's face it, it isn't just tourists. I've seen sessions ruined by:
a) locals who want to watch soccer, GAA, or anything else on the television;
b) barmen who could give a flip about the music
c) session musicians (and this happens far more often than some folks would care to admit, especially after reading some comments on this topic, and in this board).
d) folks that, as I've mentioned, get overzealous. They don't have to be tourists, though, it could be anyone.
But sure as sh*te if you're expecting tourists to accomodate a list of unwritten (but apparently soon to be written) rules that are as stringent and confining as have been suggested here, then I think that you'll soon find out who the pub owners care more for: "free" musicians or paying customers. Guess who will win.
Tunes, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder over this. All anyone's asking for is that tourists use common decency and good manners when enjoying a session. (sometimes they need some helpful hints) I think they're as capable of that as anyone else, but there are a few bad apples that have preceded them and given them a bad name. A similar thing happened with the bodhran.
If a tourist wants to speak to a musician, just be as polte as you would be with anyone else,for Fleadh's sake; they're only people after all. If they're well-know or very god don't fawn; makes we want to boke when I see that.
If someone is playing a tune, don't interrupt; treat it as if they were having a conversation with 6 or 7 friends.
It's really just the same advice as I posted for musicians new to a session, quite some time ago: be polite and be yourself.
Cool Slainte-ive had long thoughts of relocating there...
I'd imagine you do know her, she is excellent!
Unfortuantely - or fortunately, I'll be roaming the Andes in June!!
so wont be there.
Japanse fiddlers are popping out of the woodwork these days here, many can be found in the Cobblestones on a friday evening if you are looking for a session and a chat! Great to see this.
Some of the worst behaviour at sessions can be by musicians, just finished a session at pub A and wander down to pub B for a pint - they'll talk over the top of everything, now that they've had their session.
bohran bliss said:
"Just as Pete D confesses to being scared to go to sessions because there are too many rules, on comes Fyffer Guy bemoaning clueless tourists."
I in no way meant to imply that all tourists were clueless - yet, there are, unmistakeably, tourists who are clueless, yes?
And besides, the "clueless tourists" was more my impression of how they received my group while visiting: Guilty until proven innocent, in a sense. We were, after all, a decent sized group of American's invading a pub off-season. Can't blame them really.
When I first walked into an ITM concert, in a very small venue, I was amazed at the crowd. They were extremely quite and attentive. It was amazing to me as an American use to dance parties and rock concerts. Where I’m from if you hear something kool you cheer or clap or whistle in appreciation of the idea/technique/sound. So containing myself at this event (and many other events to follow) was both difficult and exhilarating in that I had to allow my excitement to build up until the song was over rather than letting it pour out at my whim. But that is just what I did…I followed the ‘regulars’ and kept my mouth shut, and my feet and hands very still. I got the message but not everybody will. (Hey, that rhymes)
On the flip side of things, some of the attendees at sessions in New York have very little regard for the musician’s abilities. Many if, not most of the crowd at some of these sessions sit around drink and stir up a loud ruckus and don’t even listen to the musicians (especially late night sessions). Many of them are not there to hear the music. But, the musicians don’t seem to mind. They keep often stop to join the crowd in the ruckus and when they feel, they start up a tune in the mists of the chaos. You can barely tell when a song has been completed by a few seemingly random clappers in the dense drunken crowd.
FyfferGuy: Does Bodhran Bliss need a translator now to make what he is saying sound more politically correct?
In visiting other countries, I like to distance myself from other Americans. When they are loud and clueless, that's an ugly combination. Many are very blunt, and conversations go from point A to point B as fast and direct as possible with none of the personal small talk common in other countries. Then it is easy to blame them for Bush. When I can go undercover and spy on this, I become anti American. However, many Americans no longer fit the stereotype.
I keep looking at the topic statement here and thinking of advice for the initiated American tourists on their way back. They need a special luxury liner to sail back to America with a whole range of treatment for hangovers, such as hot tubs, Shiatsu Massage, special herbs and nutritional supplement treatment, etc...
Advice for uninitiated tourists
Advice for uninitiated tourists
I'm writing a freelance travel article for the American market, with advice on how someone interested in ITM can find and enjoy a trad session in Ireland. The audience is tourists for whom the music is really secondary to their other reasons for visiting Ireland . . . the real neophytes.
To find sessions that match their travel itinerary, the article obviously recommends searching "thesession.org," but I want to include a list of some particularly welcoming places for tourists, but not tourist traps -- and here's the kicker, where the sessions are everynight, year round, since timing a trip so that you are able to be in Galway on Tuesdays etc., can be hard for a tourist. The list so far includes The Brazen Head and Gogarty's in Dublin, the Scotsman in Donegal, Matt Molloy's in Westport, and An Droichead Beag (The Small Bridge) in Dingle. Anyone have other recommendations, particularly in other tourist destination towns -- or comments on those I've mentioned? (They need to be seven-days, year-round, sessions, not just summer season.)
Anyone have any advice for a neophyte who really wants to get the most out of their first sessions? This can range from the practical to the philosophical.
For instance, I'm recommending that if they want a seat or want to be close to the music, arrive early and ask where the musicians set up, so they don't inadvertently stake out a spot in advance only to be chased off once the musicians arrive. This may sound self-evident, but remember: most Americans are used to have a separate stage area in bars where live music is played, and are surprised when the musicians sit down in the middle of the pub. . . .
Any advice to help interested tourists quickly get into the spirit of a session (and avoid inadvertantly detracting from it).
Any anecdotes of problematic tourists would be interesting to hear too . . . .
Thanks!
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Jams O'Donnell
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Be sure to post your finished article here so we can all avoid the pubs you recommend....
;o)
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
If you do this, you might want to consider a good dose of listener (punter) etiquette so you don't produce an undesirable result in the music pubs you mention in your article. I have a page about such things as it relates to our local pub here in San Francisco, but you might find some of it useful. The page starts out with musician etiquette, but scroll down and you'll find the punter etiquette part.
http://pweb.jps.net/~jgilder/seisiun.html
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Punter etiquette is really important!
When we were last in Ireland we couldn't believe it when one lady (a tourist) was leaning so far over the top of the flute player with her video camera (to film the other platers) that he had to stop playing for risk of getting hit on the head with her camera. (He was a lot more restrained than I would have been!)
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Ptollemy
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
You might want to suggest that the tourist find a session at home before they go to Ireland. Unbelievable as it may seem, the tourist may not like ITM played in a session. You might also suggest that they search out sing along sessions at home, which they might find more fun than just listening to tunes and songs sung solo. There are lots of these sing alongs in Ireland and they seem pretty popular with the tourists. No reason that the first session someone goes to has to be in Ireland when there are plenty of sessions around this country that could give them some clues about what happens at a session as well as what the etiquette is.
But I would also say that it is difficult to imagine someone looking for a spontaneous first session experience with a "guidebook". If someone is really interested in the music, wherever they are, on whatever night, all they need to do is ask about a session. If there is one, fine. If not, maybe they'll find one the next night. If these tourists are avoiding "tourist traps", they may need to be somewhat flexible.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by John Culhane
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
I know what you mean! At one session in Dingle, this one tourist stood in front of the musicians with her digital video camera and zoomed in and out on the musicians by physically by walking up closer, and then walking back and walking forward at a different angle, and walking back -- she did this for about 30 minutes without stopping. The musicians ignored her completely, but I think the rest of us were about to resort to violence.
She seemed generally interested in the music -- actually almost ecstatic in her enthusiasm -- which is one reason I think she survived unharmed. She was just absolutely clueless. Not sure how an adult could be that clueless, but she does get credit for inspiring this article!
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Jams O'Donnell
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Do us a favour James and don't write one about Scotland.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Cruise's in Ennis has music every night, at least in the Summer.
And lads, please, would you stop being so bitter and suspicious and thinking every "uniniated" person is going to wreck your session. Even as a joke that's wearing a bit thin. The man is trying to write an article for people who want to hear a few tunes without dedicating their whole lives to it.
People on holiday in Ireland wanting to hear some tunes. How awful! This must be prevented at all costs. Only the iniated can possibly be responsible enough to stand in a pub and listen to some tunes.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by SL*
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Get a pair of glasses, Michael!
It's "Jams" not "James" and her real name is Helen. Otherwise, I agree. I wouldn't want one written about Scotland either unless it's focused on the McEwan's Session venues which the rest of us can avoid.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Apologies from me as well for reading "James", Helen.
Good luck with the article!
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by SL*
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Thwack!
"Yer name is Jams O'Donnell!"
School, eh? Best days of your life.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Why should American tourists want to read up on session ettiquette. A lot of English musicians don't.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Greetings Jams,
Check with Steve Power at Shanna Quay in Adare. I haven't been back in two years but the last I heard there was music back in Adare area. I don't know the schedule or even if it is every night but Steve would know. You can mention that Ed from NJ suggested you contact him if you like. There must be some in Limerick City. When I was last in Kilkenny City there was a lot of music going on as well.
Some advice I can offer is to caution your readers about requesting songs like Danny Boy and interrupting the players in the middle of a tune or song. Last night whilst I was singing, and frankly lost in, “The Last Two Island Swans” I was saved by Colleen from an abrupt tap on the shoulder by a lass that was enjoying the brew quite a bit and wanted to ask me a question.
I think the advice about attending a session in their area, if possible, prior to traveling is sound. You could also suggest that the readers approach the musicians, during a break to be sure, to see if they have any CDs of themselves for sale. I would think that the musicians would enjoy making the sale and the folks would enjoy the memory each time they listen to it. Some of my favorite CDs are those I bought right from the musician. Not necessarily because the music is better but more so because listening takes me back to the place and time. Past this I would tell your readers to enjoy themselves, the craic, and the music.
Good luck with the article and please do post it here when done if you are able.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by ejsant
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
I do think a few pointers on photo and video / tape recording etiquette would be helpful for all tourists in all situations. Most tourists don't stop to think how they would feel if they were just going about their daily business and a flock of camera-happy foreigners descended on them, snapping and clicking away. I'd be really irritated, personally. Sorry to have to observe that, next to the Japanese, Americans are the world's most obtrusive camera clickers. Give them a few tips on the right way and the wrong way to immortalize their holiday. (ie. a step-by-step guide on how to ask permission.)
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
What!? Next to Japanese? You kidding, Kerri. The most obtrusive camera clickers are definitely Americans, you know. Well, it's true at least in Ireland. Maybe you confused Japanese with Chinese in some other places.
I think it's better to try to chat with musicians just in front of you, rather than to take photos. Not all of them are very friendly, and it can be a bit hard to understand their accents and jokes at first. But some will give you interesting stories about their music.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by slainte
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Don't forget to remind readers that people who play wind instruments are just as talkative as anybody else, and they love a bit of a chat while they're playing.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Gzeg
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
No, Japanese tourists take WAY more photos than Americans, they're just easier to excuse because they're cute and charming about it, and they are gone five minutes after their tour bus arrives.
American tourists are just generally more... what's the word... "p*ssy" about things in general, like if the waiter doesn't smile, or there's a hair in the bathtub, or there's no Heineken on tap. And they seem to believe more that it's their god-given constitutional right to snap photos of people as if they're not really people but background actors in a Hollywood blockbuster.
(and, no, if you're american and have a lick of sense while travelling, I'm not talking about you, PERSONALLY, I'm talking about your neighbours.)
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Where do you live Slainte?
I have many friends in Osaka, and I play here in Dublin with a great fiddler from Kyoto....I'd love to go over.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
You can blame Hollywood for the phenomenon of people talking to musicians while they're playing. I always want to kick the TV when they show someone playing something very difficult and sensitive and a PI, or whatever the hero of the story is, will walk up and start asking about some suspect or person of interest that might have been in the place. Clueless people watching will come away thinking it's ok, and they even think flute players are capable of talking whilst playing. Personally, I just close my eyes when I see one of them approaching. If that doesn't work -- I pretend I'm deaf. (This actually worked once.)
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
I usually tell the talkers and handshakers that It's just as well that I am not a brain surgeon.
As for photographers and cine cameras, we just assume that they are income tax spies and confiscate the film.
We get a lot of tourists at one of our sessions during the summer, and the people are usually great, or else afraid of us as we fight amongst ourselves.
There is lots of music in Westport apart from Molloy's, sessions in Louisburgh, out the coast, on Sunday, Wednesday and Saturday, and maybe Thursday, so you won't have to stick to the well known pubs, which sometimes are disappointing. The most famous ITM pub near me attracts people from everywhere, but I haven't heard any music in it for 30 years.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Spot on observations, Kerri. That is why when my wife and I travel out of the country we steer clear of our fellow countrymen’s path.
Great suggestion about including a discussion about “photographing/videoing" etiquette as well.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by ejsant
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
When I was in Ireland (a long time ago) my family and I toured the outskirts of the entire country (including Northern Ireland) with a rent a car rather than with a tour bus. This allowed us to explore the country at our whim. At that point in my life ITM was the furthest thought on my and my family’s minds. We were the typical tourists…in Ireland to look at some of the sites (old castles, Book of Kells, etc.) and connect with our cultural past. In Co. Clair we visited Bunratty Castle and Folk Park. We were interested enough in the sites at the park that we decided to spend the day in this area of Ireland, and at night we returned to the folk park to eat a communal dinner (gruel of some sort) with several other tourists and listen to some ITM and watch some dancers. Although other tourists were present I would not consider it a tourist trap. At this particular event the other tourists provided comfort (I read some "etiquette" on ITM sessions, & now I’m scared to attend sessions...so many rules) and conversation. The ambiance, as I remember it, was a mix between medieval and traditional. Within a very simple barn hard wooden benches were placed before several large unclothed wooden tables to support communal seating/eating. Very simple food. It was fun and memorable. I still have the advertisement:
“The Bunratty Barn is the venue for your traditional Irish Ceili and features superb traditional Irish music and dance.”
This type of venue and venues similar to the Bunratty Castle and Folk Park is worth additional research.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Pete D
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Having just returned from Ireland, and spent 3 nights in Doolin, I can recommend any and all of their 3 pubs (O'Connor's, McGann's and McDermott's), which each have sessions every night. I wouldn't want to inflict more clueless tourists on them than they already get, but if the punters in question are sufficiently educated, and can remain humble and unobtrusive, Doolin is the place.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Just as Pete D confesses to being scared to go to sessions because there are too many rules, on comes Fyffer Guy bemoaning clueless tourists.
Tourists contribute a lot to the Irish economy, and are not too bad nowadays. In the past I can remember Yanks arguing about the cost of shilleag... shilleagh... those stick things. "Yea, I got this cheaper in Killarney than you did in Glendalough". They have learnt from past mistakes. I have also met a number of intelligent (sic) Yanks, and have been friendly with some of them for years.
These tourists should be welcome at all sessions, although most prefer sessions with songs as well. I mean there is nobody from Ireland in Matt Molloys but you can still get a good session.
Places like Killarney used to have Irish nights and they were dreadful, merely exploiting green misty eyed Yanks and propagating a "Quiet Man" vision of Ireland. Cracking film mind you for all its faults, and has and still does provide employment for many in the Cong area.
Finally Pete D, just go along and play what you know, listen and learn, and if you meet any boring purists, you can always resort to the good old whistle through the neck, with a twist. That's the name of a tune, honest. Bb whistles are best for this.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
bodhran bliss -- I was at Matt Malloy's just Easter Monday, and sat with a couple from Westmeath and two young guys (late 20s) who were originally from Westport, back home to visit their parents during Easter week. There seemed to be others, although there's no question 50 percent of the room was filled by a tour bus of American college-age kids.
Was this a fluke, Irish people in Matt Malloys? Because of the Easter Bank Holiday? I'd really like to know -- is it normally a place the Irish avoid?
By the way, thanks everyone for the input. I appreciate it all and am finding it all helpful -- even where the board disagrees!
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Jams O'Donnell
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
"even where the board disagrees"
When do we disagree?
Anyway, Pete D, I went to the Bunratty Castle for their shtick in 1990 when the Nephews were over for a few days to meet up with us. We thought it would be a fun thing for them to do -- and it was, but it was far from being anything that resembled a session. What goes on there is show business, and it’s specifically designed for tourists. If you’re looking for something fun to do with the family it’s a good bet. If it’s a night of ITM you seek – Ennis is just down the road.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Jaysus, Mary and Holy St. Joseph.
Just yesterday I was speaking with my aunt & uncle about their first-ever trip to Ireland... recommending where to go, what to do, etc., as they've only a week in counrty.
After reading this thread, I've got to be sure to call them back and rescind my recommendations for visiting any pubs with traditional music.
They'd be overcome by all the *(&@(*&@ rules.
And who would have thought it was supposed to be an enjoyable past time, to listen to the music.
God could only help them if they somehow got their instructions wrong.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
By the way, the folks up at Gallagher's (just off the square) in Westport get a good chuckle out of the tourists who, like zombies, head into Malloys, thinking they're sure to find Matt, playing away on his flute, on any given day of the week.
Not realizing that the Chieftains actually tour the world for half the year or more.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
"They'd be overcome by all the *(&@(*&@ rules."
Yea, the rules were made up to scare away annoying tourists.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
I haven't seen much here that looks like " *(&@(*&@ rules". The only rule is to behave as if you've been invited to a party by the musicians, not as if you are at a theme park where the musicians are hired to entertain you. It's really very simple, but surprisingly non-obvious.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Yep, keep scaring away those "annoying tourists", and see how fast the pub owners figure out why.
Invited to a party by musicians? That's pretty arrogant, in my opinion, given that the musicians are there at the invite (in most cases) of the owners.
Again - what would a session be without the listeners? You'd all be staying home.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
There's no doubting that some overzealous types can ruin a good session, but let's face it, it isn't just tourists. I've seen sessions ruined by:
a) locals who want to watch soccer, GAA, or anything else on the television;
b) barmen who could give a flip about the music
c) session musicians (and this happens far more often than some folks would care to admit, especially after reading some comments on this topic, and in this board).
d) folks that, as I've mentioned, get overzealous. They don't have to be tourists, though, it could be anyone.
But sure as sh*te if you're expecting tourists to accomodate a list of unwritten (but apparently soon to be written) rules that are as stringent and confining as have been suggested here, then I think that you'll soon find out who the pub owners care more for: "free" musicians or paying customers. Guess who will win.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
bohdran...i was being sarcastic...but i feel many of these "rules" would scare off many people unfamiliar with the scene.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Pete D
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Karaoke is even worse than football.
Stefan, I live near Tokyo. I might know the fiddler from Kyoto playing in Dublin. And might see you in June.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by slainte
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Tunes, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder over this. All anyone's asking for is that tourists use common decency and good manners when enjoying a session. (sometimes they need some helpful hints) I think they're as capable of that as anyone else, but there are a few bad apples that have preceded them and given them a bad name. A similar thing happened with the bodhran.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
No Jack it's you with your over-the-top rules that's the problem. Honestly, you give all of us musos a bad name with your purist tendencies
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Dow
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Just because brit-boxes aren't allowed doesn't mean you have to get your knickers all in a twist, Dow.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
My advice: just enjoy the music.
If a tourist wants to speak to a musician, just be as polte as you would be with anyone else,for Fleadh's sake; they're only people after all. If they're well-know or very god don't fawn; makes we want to boke when I see that.
If someone is playing a tune, don't interrupt; treat it as if they were having a conversation with 6 or 7 friends.
It's really just the same advice as I posted for musicians new to a session, quite some time ago: be polite and be yourself.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Sorry, *very good*; very God is only applicable to Frankie Gavin :¬)
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Cool Slainte-ive had long thoughts of relocating there...
I'd imagine you do know her, she is excellent!
Unfortuantely - or fortunately, I'll be roaming the Andes in June!!
so wont be there.
Japanse fiddlers are popping out of the woodwork these days here, many can be found in the Cobblestones on a friday evening if you are looking for a session and a chat! Great to see this.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
Some of the worst behaviour at sessions can be by musicians, just finished a session at pub A and wander down to pub B for a pint - they'll talk over the top of everything, now that they've had their session.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Bren
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
bohran bliss said:
"Just as Pete D confesses to being scared to go to sessions because there are too many rules, on comes Fyffer Guy bemoaning clueless tourists."
I in no way meant to imply that all tourists were clueless - yet, there are, unmistakeably, tourists who are clueless, yes?
And besides, the "clueless tourists" was more my impression of how they received my group while visiting: Guilty until proven innocent, in a sense. We were, after all, a decent sized group of American's invading a pub off-season. Can't blame them really.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
When I first walked into an ITM concert, in a very small venue, I was amazed at the crowd. They were extremely quite and attentive. It was amazing to me as an American use to dance parties and rock concerts. Where I’m from if you hear something kool you cheer or clap or whistle in appreciation of the idea/technique/sound. So containing myself at this event (and many other events to follow) was both difficult and exhilarating in that I had to allow my excitement to build up until the song was over rather than letting it pour out at my whim. But that is just what I did…I followed the ‘regulars’ and kept my mouth shut, and my feet and hands very still. I got the message but not everybody will. (Hey, that rhymes)
On the flip side of things, some of the attendees at sessions in New York have very little regard for the musician’s abilities. Many if, not most of the crowd at some of these sessions sit around drink and stir up a loud ruckus and don’t even listen to the musicians (especially late night sessions). Many of them are not there to hear the music. But, the musicians don’t seem to mind. They keep often stop to join the crowd in the ruckus and when they feel, they start up a tune in the mists of the chaos. You can barely tell when a song has been completed by a few seemingly random clappers in the dense drunken crowd.
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Pete D
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
So much for etiquette
# Posted on April 22nd 2005 by Pete D
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
http://www.ewe.ie/
my mates website, for Japanese Tourists and anyone else i suppose.
nothing to do with sheep ...much
# Posted on April 23rd 2005 by DeffGoat
Re: Advice for uninitiated tourists
FyfferGuy: Does Bodhran Bliss need a translator now to make what he is saying sound more politically correct?
In visiting other countries, I like to distance myself from other Americans. When they are loud and clueless, that's an ugly combination. Many are very blunt, and conversations go from point A to point B as fast and direct as possible with none of the personal small talk common in other countries. Then it is easy to blame them for Bush. When I can go undercover and spy on this, I become anti American. However, many Americans no longer fit the stereotype.
I keep looking at the topic statement here and thinking of advice for the initiated American tourists on their way back. They need a special luxury liner to sail back to America with a whole range of treatment for hangovers, such as hot tubs, Shiatsu Massage, special herbs and nutritional supplement treatment, etc...
# Posted on April 24th 2005 by CeolCairdeas