They used to tell a story about "The Dubliners". John Shehan the fiddle player was the only one who could read music and took great pride in this, until he was asked by an old man in a remote part of Ireland if he could read music or was he just gifted. That put the bragging out of him.
The point is many classical trained musicians or indeed musicians who learn by reading the tunes, often lack the natural "feel" which those who learn by simply playing develop. Or playing by ear as it is usually known.
I imagine being able to read music and knowing scales and all that would offer some initial advantage, but can it also hinder by making the playing of Irish music sound stilted.
Notation, reading, training, theory, etc. are tools. They help if used intelligently and sensitively. They hinder if used incorrectly. The trick is getting to the point where you know the difference. Having the tools sometimes makes this journey take longer, but once you get there, they can only help. Just like any tool, really.
im learning 4 string irish folk banjo and blues harmonica using tab. but i am learning music notation (picking it up if you like) at the same time.
i knew rudimentary music and notation from school days, but could not grasp relating strings to notation at the beginning at all. for me anyway tab is the way forward, if i learn musical notation on the way so be it, but in the meantime with tab im learning to play the banjo and play music and really enjoying myself.
It can help or hinder if you are somebody who insists on playing everything exactly as written then it will hurt horribly because it will sound stifled with no soul I almost always learn tunes from both hearing and the dots it is really the best way for me because I am bad at learning by ear and I have incrdible site reading skills. It is the player not the method of leaning a tune an ear player can sound just as stifled as a dot player it is just that way a person plays the tune.
From my own personal viewpoint - I am highly skilled at reading music and have done it almost all my life. It's a skill I value highly. But I rarely apply it to Irish music anymore. Most of my tunes are learned by ear. However, and again this is just me, not everybody - I honestly feel that my knowledge of reading and theory makes it easier for me to learn tunes by ear. But perhaps it doesn't.
I do occasionally trawl through collections looking for new and interesting tunes, and occasionally I learn one that way, but I find it harder to remember these. But to me, this is still the big advantage of reading. Same as being able to read words. I don't often go out and buy books of stories I've heard - I'd rather read a story I haven't heard. Same with tunes - there are some real gems buried in both old and new collections for those who are musically literate. However, you need to have a grounding on the tradition to interpret them.
Equally, if I hear a tune played or on a recording I rarely find that the setting I find in print is the way I want to play it anyway, so I might as well learn it by ear in the first place.
I find reading useful when practising - it's a good aide memoir to help remind me to play everything I know- Ihave pages of the first two bars of a tune written out - it just helps me make sure that all my repertoire gets exercised, so that I'm not rusty with anything I know( thats the theory anyway) If I hear something I like I try to get the music since it helps me get the bare bones of the tune before I start making it mine properly. I resisted learning to read for many years but I have to say that it's opened up a whole world of opportunity for me
I just joined a ceili band. I'm being introduced to a slew of new tunes that I'm not familiar with and being able to read the sheet music enables me to practice the tunes to the point where I’m able to play with the group. This is definitely a positive thing.
I also just started taking a music class in ear training. No written music is distributed to the students until the student has learned the tune by ear. I find that listening to the tune and learning to play by ear enables me to learn the tune *by heart* much quicker than by reading sheet music. Of course you need access to the person who knows the tune or you have to have a recording of the tune. Also, learning by ear also gives the player a better feel for the tune and all its subtleties.
All in all I very much agree with GaryAMartin that “Notation, reading, training, theory, etc. are tools.” I use the tool when I need to use the tool.
I began learning to read music at about the age of 5, and it is of course an essential skill for anyone who plays classical music. Over half a century later I got into Irish music, and quickly found in order to get anywhere I had to learn by ear. It took me perhaps two years to acquire that particular skill, which possibly reflects the time it takes for the brain of an older person to develop new learning pathways.
Now, I pick up nearly all my tunes from sessions and workshops and use the dots only to check out something I'm not sure of. If I learn a tune from the dots then I try to use the printed music as no more than a general guide to that tune - an outline or skeleton of the tune shape which I can work on if I want to. And it's always worth reminding oneself that a printed version is no more than a snapshot of one playing of the tune, and shouldn't be treated as Urtext carved in stone.
I generally don't use cds for specific tune learning - there again they are usually specially worked on for the benefit of the recording studio, and the music is often developed far beyond the capabilities of a beginner to learn from - the cds of Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples and Frankie Gavin are obvious examples. I use them just for listening and enjoyment. There are exceptions of course - the Ben Lennon cds, which sound as if they aren't all that far removed from a typical good session, can be used for tune learning, as can many of the cds and videos by ceili bands for set dancing. And don't forget the Ceilidh House broadcasts if you can get them.
I agree with Trevor. It's not a good idea to learn tunes from the recordings of highly inventive musicians, such as Martin Hayes: they sometimes play very unusual settings of well-known tunes in weird keys. Of course, it's fun to learn their settings once we got a common version of a tune.
And yes, ceili bands usually have more session-friendly settings of standard tunes. And they also teach us which notes to emphasize and where to put effective variations, etc.
It helps tremendously for a great many reasons, incuding i) if you can remember tunes but not titles ii) if you want to give a tune to somebody who can't play by ear iii) coming across new tunes in obscure places (like sheet music section of 0xfam shop) iv) for quickly jotting down a tune one's heard, to learn it later.
It's also a great shorthand. I knew a fool who claimed he 'didn't need' to read music. Five minutes later he was floundering around trying to explain to another musican (new to folk music) the difference between and ordonary jig and a slip jig. I just said "Jig is 6/8; slip jig's 9/8" and the other guy understood immediately.
When used as a tool is is wonderful; I wish I could sight read better, and I would love to know more theory. But you have to watch that you don't let it restrict you.
I have never met anybody who regrets being able to read music, but I've met several who can't who say it's a bad thing and a hindrance!
Sheet music for the bodhran would theoretically be rhythm charts as used by drummers, wouldn't they? The late Frank Zappa used these extensively as one of the criteria for choosing drummers for his band......
Rhythm charts? Is that not some form of birth control.
The only difference between me and Grapelli is that I can read writing, and we play different instruments.
As I said at the start, I imagine it would be a help, but over reliance could be a hindrance. I always look at James Galway, his flute playing is beyond reproach, but he struggles with Irish music.
In short, is a "feel" for the music more valuable than the ability to read music, read tabs, and practice birth control?
I've already described a bodhran rhythm chart. It consists of a blank piece of paper.
One can play music without knowing a lick of reading, indeed, this is how all music was orginally developed. One can also learn great works of literature through the oral method, indeed, this how "literature" was orginally developed. With out "feel" there is no music, just tones in succession. One can recite Shakepeare in a steady rhythmic monotone, ignoring the meter of the verse or the emontional information of the words, as well. The words are still there, the meaning of the words is still there, but the poetry is gone.
I still find it rather useful that the plays are written down. Greece came out of its Dark Age almost entirely because the people in the oral tradition found it very useful in memorizing their Homer if they had a printed copy of the bloody thing. The Bards found it very useful as well, because now their students could memorize the words on their own, instead of taking up years of the Bards time just teaching the words. Then they could concentrate on teaching the correct feel. As a result more people could recite Homer and do so well and each one of them was more available to give recitations, as their time was more available
Including people today, whereas without the text Homer would have been completely lost to us, as most Irish music, precolumbuan American music, Babylonian music, etc, has become lost to us.
Yes, people who simply learned the words, or simply read them straight from the text (as is almost universally done today) without access to a Bard could screw it all up and destroy the poetry. That is not the fault of the text. The tool is a passive object. Only the weilder of the tool is responsible for the outcome. Gary got it right in the first go and the thread could have ended right there.
Listen, listen, listen alright, but it would be silly to learn a language and eschew the knowledge of it contained in dictionaries, wouldn't it? Dictionaries can't teach you how to speak a language, for instance, knowledge of how Latin is spoken is dead, because we have no aural record of spoken Latin, but they remain a valuable resource for the speaker, nonetheless.
Galway's problem with Irish music is not the fault of the dots, but rather in what he was taught to do with them. The problem is people. The problem is always bloody people.
Remember that old ticker tape they had before WW I for sending Morse Code? Dot dot dash etc... Maybe we could use that for bodhran.
I envy everyone at this site that has strong sessions. My experience in the US is that the strongest sessions are in locations that have had the most Irish immigration, such as Boston, New York, Chicago, and San Francisco. In smaller cities and towns, you see tentative groups with sheet music out at sessions. While I appreciate the people that sit in and play classical violin, they often have no gut feeling for the tunes. Some of the best sessions I have had have happened due to my begging and bribing Bluegrass friends to sit in for a few cross over tunes, such as Cuckoo's Nest. (^:
It's not the ability that hinders, but the tendency to believe that it's the only ability you need for the task.
In the case of Galway, I doubt very much that it's a case of over-reliance on reading music that's the problem. It's probably more an over-reliance on technical skills. It's been 20 years since I've listened to him, but my impression was that he had the same problem (at least to my ears) with the baroque and classical repertoire. He was showing off his technique and playful musical inventiveness, and wowing the audience with his charisma and stage presence, but didn't really dig deeply into the soul of the music. I carefully avoided his forays into Irish music. (I don't think I even bought any of his classical recordings, though I heard them on the radio, listened to ones that friends bought, and played them on the radio when I was a DJ in college in the 70s.)
To expand on what flying tigerpig (sorry, I'm typing offline so I can't check your profile to see if you have another name) was saying:
There's a fiddler who has been coming to our session and music parties for about five years who doesn't read music. He's a good player with a good feel for the music and knows some great tunes. But the list of tunes he knows has been stuck somewhere around 50 for all that time. When we introduce new tunes into the session, it excludes him. He can sometimes pick up bits and pieces on the fly, but never seems inclined to get hold of a recording and actually learn the tunes. If he could overcome his resistance to the idea of reading music, I think he'd learn new tunes much more quickly and have more fun at the sessions.
So now to conclude and to finish my song, here's my current feeling for music from just about any oral/aural tradition:
Playing by ear - essential skill
Reading music - extremely useful, but not necessary skill
A feel for the music - essential (and independent of skills)
The hinderance comes from complaceny, laziness, or ego - thinking that one or two of these can make up for the ones that are missing or weak.
While sheet music can be helpful if used properly, Irish music (and many other genres) should be learned by ear since the sheet music gives only an approximation of the timing, accents, ornaments, and sometimes pitch of the music.
The real value of sheet music is in archiving tunes. Tunes can be kept (as traditional notation or tabulature) in alphabetical order according to title, tune, key, etc. and found again easily to jog the memory. For someone who does not read notes, the only archival method I have heard of is to keep actual recordings of the music. While this preserves the mussic in a more accurate fashion thanm written forms, the retrieval would seem to be a bit cumbersome. Trying to find a particular tune on a 90 minute cassette from a session would seem to be a difficult as trying to find a particular paragraph in a novel written on a 90 ft scrool with no index.
The tunes should be learned by ear and kept in written form.
I use the dots like a road map. Although improving with time, I don't have the quick ear that most of the gifted people here have. So when I can't find way, I use the dots to get back on track. I'm the same way about partial assembly required stuff and the directions that come with it. I only break them out when I can't figure out how to put it together or end up with spare parts.
If I can take a little umbridge with the "flying tiger pig" ...
Quote, "I knew a fool who claimed he 'didn't need' to read music".
It's not clear whether this person was a fool because they claimed that they didn't need to reed music, or that they were meerly a fool. However, the anecdote lacks a specific logic. If the other musician, the one new to folk music, had anything of a musical ear, then the difference between a jig and a slipjig would have been clear to them. The "fool" should have been able to play a phrase of a jig, then a phrase of a slip jig, and the "shorthand" would have been redundent.
Now I'm not saying, and never had, that music notation is not a wonderful tool, but to compare its usefulness in diddley music in terms of neccesity with that of great literiture and the written word is to oversetimate the complexity of diddley music.
What we have in this great tradition of ours is very small packages of music, usually very short, repetative, and in simple scales. I'm afraid that the truth is that no, we do not need the written note in order to play this music. The human memory is more than adequate in its abiltiy to store tens of thousands of these little packages of brilliance.
But back to the original question ... Yes, I've seen people hindered by their abillity to read, but as KFG says, the problem is always the bloody people, not the dots themselves.
But the real point, and the only one that people who read absoulutly hasve to pay attention to. Is that it is absolutly completely and uterley impossible to play this music if you can't do it by ear.
Thanks anyway, but I got it now. (goes on playing the tune very poorly)
I have found the dots very helpful, but not for learning necessarily... more for remembering. I always prefer to have a tune in my head before I begin learning it -- saves so much time and the result is better. On the occasion that I do learn a tune by the dots I try to find a recording or someone that knows it to check it against.
While I agree with Nfg that sheet music only gives an approximation of timing, accents, ornaments etc. - he might be interested to know that any specialist in, say, Baroque music, will tell you the same thing. What that means is that those who play from the dots need to have a deep understanding of the genre in which they are playing. A great many musical styles require you to "read between the lines" and are often written down with the expectation that the player will be able to do just that.
Whether I learn a tune from dots, a session, a recording or an individual, it is ultimately up to me to decide whether the style and setting is as "authentic" and "traditional" as I wish it to be.
I would rather hear a player with a deep understanding of traditional style play a tune he learned form a book than hear someone who simply has a "quick ear" play a tune he learned at a mediocre session.
I have "dyslexia", an overused term for visual learning disabilities. So I am consequently an auditory learner. So I think auditory for me is much more important but I can understand others that personally think visual learning is more or as important. I would expect musicians to have more auditory accuity, and therefore in general auditory learning may be more important.
Kris: I would agree with "deep understanding" but may want to push this farther toward "feeling" the music. "Lament for the First Generation" played in a hearfelt manner (e.g. Liz Carroll) might bring tears. A rollicking jig or reel in solo practice might be so much fun that you repeat several times to enjoy yourself more in playing the music.
When I learn a tune--whether it's from another player, a recording, or the dots--my goal is the same: to hear the tune in my head. I can do that by listening to someone else play it, or by looking at the dots (or abcs).
In a sense, then, translating the dots into sound is just another way to "learn by ear." Yes, it takes a solid feel for the music developed by listening to it, but that's true of any genre.
And I'd no more assume that the tune should be played "exactly as written" than I would assume that it should be played exactly as someone else plays it.
That said, I prefer to learn tunes by ear, from another player, in person. But recordings and the dots are handy ways to store for later retrieval. And they afford another way of looking at the music that sometimes helps me understand its form.
And *that* said, the dots are only a hindrance when they become a crutch that prevents or slows you from learning tunes aurally.
I'm so sick of hearing people say that written music is useless because it does not properly represent the tunes. Talk about stating the obvious. If you read this paragraph by sounding the letters out as written, it would sound pretty strange wouldn't it? But then if you weren't reading this now you wouldn't know what I was saying because you wouldn't be able to hear me talk out loud, would you? The letters in this paragraph are there for the same reason as the written tune posts to this site - as a quick visual medium of transmission and nothing more. Having said that, for this music I find abc much more useful than dots. With abc you can jot a tune down on the fly at a session on any old scrap of paper. Dots are a waste of time because you either have to use manuscript paper or draw stave lines yourself.
No because what happened was was you know Kevin Flanagan, well he's been going round saying that I said Shelley's mum smells of mud well she does but I never said it so shut up.
Seriously though, Beebs don't you agree? It's blatantly obvious that notes on a sheet of paper can only be a representation of the actual tune you hear. This isn't bloody rocket science
Something else has just struck me about this debate and it has to do with my crusade against there being too many tunes.
While alot of people here agree that learning tuns by ear is the best way, there is also general agreement that writing tunes down is the best way to remember them. It seems obvious, there for, that if we only remembered them in our heads, there'd be alot less tunesd kicking about and that the regional differences this music once proudly posessed would return.
I see your point, Michael, but surely demise or convergence of regional styles is more to do with other aspects of the modern world, e.g. CDs, International touring bands, cheap and easy transport around the world--musicians are much more mobile these days, and so on.
While alot of people here agree that learning tuns by ear is the best way, there is also general agreement that writing tunes down is the best way to remember them. It seems obvious, there for, that if we only remembered them in our heads, there'd be alot less tunesd kicking.
Michael, I didn't expect you to agree with me.
Actually, I think the wide availability of written music probably is a factor too, though by no means the only one
And there is another thing here about writing tunes down that, seeings John is available, may be worth discussing. And that is the difference between Diddley and Diddly, Irish and Scottish dance tunes/music.
I think that a major contributor to the differences between the two is that Scottish music had begun to be written down much earlier than Irish music. There is a thing about Scottish music that anyone who plays both will have to agree is that it's really tight and accurate. It's very much harder to faff scottish tunes, you really do have to know them very well, where as Irish tunes are mush looser, more fluid, less precise.
Though I find now, with the "modern" tunes written in the "Irish idiom" that they are siding more with the Scottish tradition of having to be very tight. This I am sure is the direct concequence of them being recorded (I refer to both mechanical recordings and written recordings).
blimey - back from a weekend on the road and look at this thread! bit of an obsession for me
brilliant to hear of another dyslexic (CeolCairdeas) with the same problem - did they give you an extra hard time at school because you were musical yet wouldn't read music? started on the fiddle aged 3 and romped off till they tried to teach me the dots. then it was hell for 15 years. blighted my life! I can write music down (I know all the theory ) and use it as an aid memoire - and even work out a simple tune very very VERY slowly, but completely impossible to sight read. how may kids have this condition and are turned off music for life by the stupid system and teachers who only think about orchestras?
firmly believe kids should be blindfolded (metaphorically, at least) when they first start to play. teach them to use their ears. THEN maybe learn the flysh*t because it is useful. i use it to teach band members and session players. but it's like leaning languages - even the BBC, (an audio medium, for goodness sake) make the mistake of publishing huge books on how to learn a foreign language, with a wee tape at the back for the pronounciation. how stupid is that?
try teaching a baby to talk by showing them words on a page, eh?
The dots are only a snapshot.
Remember James Galway doing a recoding with the Chieftains. They provided him with some dots but they played it totally differently. When he commented on what was written down, they said - oh, they used to play it like that.
The dots are a big help in learning tunes. I am slow to learn, so I hear a tune I like, take home the bare bones of it, check against sheet music to see if I have it right, take it back to the session to find out if the sheet music really captured the way we play it, work on the tricky parts to master them, and back and forth till I have it. I never learned to read music very well when I was young, but am glad I know how. And now that I am in a group, there are many skills that I gained from the school band and church choir, such as reading music, knowing how to make an entrance, figuring and writing out harmonies, etc. that are extremely valuable.
I'm kind of skimming here, but I read Trevor's post way back and that's exactly my story as well, so I have almost nothing to contribute, except this: I'm happy to have the ability to read and write music as a memory aid. If I hear a tune I like at a session I can grab a napkin and scribble out a couple of bars. Then I can ask hours and hours later, referring to my napkin "Hey, what's that tune that went 'diddly die-dly diddly die'" and they will give me a name, which I can either look up in my music books (rare) or hassle them to play it every time I see them until I finally get it into my head (frequent).
The point being ... you used the music to get it into your head. Think about how you would feel if you only used your head. OK so you'd probasbly end up knowing less tunes, but I think it's worth it.
".....It's very much harder to faff scottish tunes, you really do have to know them very well, where as Irish tunes are mush looser, more fluid, less precise..."
I posted on this a while back (months), and have come to a new realization of how it works for me. For a bit, I was learning tunes via the sheet music, which I still do to some extent. There are a couple of tunes I've never heard recorded or live, that I have fell in love with only from learning the music from the dots.
Also, I find it extremely useful as a learning tool to transcribe tunes from recordings. Just recently, I was learning a hornpipe, not a trad tune, but a composition by the whistle player of the CD I was listening to. It was pretty fast, and I was having a hard time learning it just by playing along. So, I grabbed my manuscript paper notebook, sat with the CD player and my whistle, and proceeded to transcribe the tune, as I heard it. (play CD - play whistle - stop - rewind - write dots - play CD - play along with dots - check work - rewind - repeat). In this way, I find I'm able to learn a tune in one sitting, then essentially, I can throw away the sheet music I've just written (of course, after posting my work here ),
So, I guess I'm still learning by ear, essentially, but just using the dots to "get it into my head" as MG says so eloquently.
Yes, I think it's true that Scottish tunes tend to be structured in such a way that accuracy is important. Some of them are very simple too, of course, but I find it harder to pick them up "on the fly" or "bluff" my way through if I haven't learned them properly(or forgotten them). I know you're not supposed to do this. With Scottish tunes, you can tell they have been composed at one time by an individual. I know that Irish tunes have as well but they just feel "more natural" somehow as if they've always been there.
I'm probably the opposite as regarding the use of music. It tends to be the other way round. I'll listen to a tune to "get it into my head" if I am learning a tune from dots. I can sight read fairly well now but it's just the melody line I use (for fiddle/mandolin and so on). However, I originally picked everything up by ear and only became quite good at reading music through necessity when I started to play with a fiddle society. Most of the time, though, I just pretend to look at the music once I've learned the music by heart(by ear or otherwise)
"Yes, but not enough to affect my playing."
I think that’s true for me. I can read music, but I very, very rarely sight read (except for singing an *arrangement*). When I refer to sheet music for a tune, it’s practically always because I’ve heard the tune and have it partly or mostly in my head and I just need to clarify the muddy parts – usually isolated measures which I immediately memorize. I don’t remember ever learning a tune from the dots without first hearing it many times. The style and feel of the tune are already in my head before I look at the dots.
I find I can;t get into a tune simply by reading the dots - I have to hear it to get interested in it. I can look at the dots and play through them 30 times, but until I hear an inspired version, it won't "click."
I can usually figure out aywhere from 60-90% of a given tune by ear, but there's always a few tricky bits whe looking at the staff music helps sort things out.
Several years ago I made a New Year's resolution and forced myself to start learning classical guitar "properly" - this after years of slowing down ragtime guitar records and picking up the stuff by ear. I bought one of the standard tutors, and the first thing the guy said went something like this: "The mistake many beginners make is giving up the sheet music for a piece too early, and playing from memory." So I gritted my teeth and forced myself to play from the music. But my mind would wander, and I'd be off playing from memory again in no time. My resolution lasted about four weeks.
This stuff happened me as an eight-year-old taking piano lessons too, and I'm sure I've got permanently damaged knuckles from the raps I got when I played the tune with the book opened to the wrong page.
So I've come to believe I have a mental block (or ADD, or whatever) when it comes to sight-reading. I can figure a tune out from the dots, it gets burned in my memory quickly, and after that I can't bring myself to concentrate on the dots any more. And then I go and play it with other folks without the music, and sometimes I pick up some of their little twists. And I unthinkingly add in triplets and stuff in spots where I've heard Tommy Peoples or Angela Carberry do it on CD. And by the time I come back to refresh my memory with the dots, sometimes it's not quite the same tune at all.
So I've learned the bones of most of my tunes from the sheet music, and yet I don't feel too bad because I'm a lousy sight-reader.
"With Scottish tunes, you can tell they have been composed at one time by an individual. I know that Irish tunes have as well but they just feel "more natural" somehow as if they've always been there."
Hmmm. Well, Johnny J, perhaps you've really struck something there. Perhaps that's why there's so many (too many, in Michael's world) tunes. Because there's an individualistic version of every tune for every single muso out there, and sometimes/often that version is different on a different day or moment.
If your music form values individuality, then of course you're going to end up with more tunes. If your music form values homogeny, then of course everything about it will foment and support that.
Congratulations Greg, you're a totally trad player!
The reason Irish tunes feel less contrived is that they've been tumbled around in the folk process so long, they're polished down to their essential tune-ness. Pebbles in the stream, as it were.
And the tumbleing around process NECCESSITATES that it is not recorded (either mechanically or with dots) otherwise there is always a "correct" version to go back to
Don't be silly, Michael. There's only people who think that the recorded version is the correct version. Like, apparently, you. *smirk* (Teasing. I'm teasing you.)
I'd take a longer view of things, Michael. A recording may inhibit the tumbling of a tune for a time, but eventually that recording loses its influence. For example, we still run into fiddlers who slavishly play Coleman's setting of the Tarbolton set, but not everyone does. Some of us tinker with the tunes as a backlash against such copying, some of us tinker out of ignorance (never having heard the model), and some tinker out of unstoppable creative urges.
In fact, you could argue that by exposing tunes to a wider pool of players, recordings actually enhance the tumbling process. Case in point--I posted one of my own tunes here, and through the written and midi record, someone picked it up. It then entered the stream and washed up in Belgium with no name and in a different key. A key that I now play it in myself. This all happened in less than one year...imagine if it tumbles around for a generation or ten.
In short, it's not the recordings themselves that trap tunes like a bug in amber, but the mindset of the listeners. But I'd wager that most trad players don't think that way--we like to tinker with tunes, no matter how we swoon over so and so's version on their latest cd. And the longer we play this music, the more inclined to tinker we become, so the trapped-in-amber syndrome tends to be most prevalent among newbies, who have less influence over the direction of the tradition's creep.
Another case in point. On a whim, I just looked at Alan Ng's list of the top 100 most recorded Irish tunes. Number 2 is Michael's favorite, the Bucks. Alan's got it on 23 different recordings, and there are 51 albums listed under the Bucks in the tune archives here. Most if not all of these recorded versions are significantly different from the next. And everytime I've ever heard any decent musician play this tune, they aimed to put their own stamp on it. It's hard to see how the earliest recorded source sealed the Bucks off from continued tumbling.
Dots as a useful tool: Consider the tune "Dusty Windowsill." The author was inspired with the tune but could only remember it by writing the dots on a dusty windowsill. My question is; did he use staff or ABC notation?
I can *play* a tune more quickly if I read the music, but I can't remember it very well if I am working from the paper. I can *learn* a tune more quickly if I can listen to it (over and over).
Surprisingly I never learnt music, even at primary (junior) school.
I had a mandolin for 30 years before someone showed me a few scales, putting your fingers in a different place to play the same tune or song, as JfiddlerH referred to. I must admit it was wondrous, you could just play around a song on the scales, like a blues harp. I'd never been able to do that because I didn't know the scales, and after 40 years on the blues harp I still do not know what any of the notes are. You just play the thing, same with a harmonica where I could play loads of Irish tunes, although a harmonica is not really suited to playing ITM to say the least.
You just memorised tunes. I have come across a lot of sight readers and such recently, and was impressed. But some of them are a bit stilted with the tunes.
I mean my child (nearly 20) can just lift the mandolin and play tunes because he knows the notes, which you've already guessed, I don't. And he doesn't play the mandolin. Now things like that impress someone who knows nothing about notes, sight reading, reading music, or 2/4, 6/8 time.
But I can still play. Perhaps a combination of the two is best?
And yes, M.G was right. If you can't play by ear, forget ITM.
Just looking out the window to see if the world has ended.
"The reason Irish tunes feel less contrived is that they've been tumbled around in the folk process so long, they're polished down to their essential tune-ness. Pebbles in the stream, as it were".
?????? Will, do you mean that Irish tunes are older than Scottish ones?
There is a show on BBC called "Little Britain", Dow is spot on when he does this character called Vickie Pollard and that is no small feat because most people cant even understand what she is saying. Its hard to describe but def worth a look if you can get your hands on it Jack. I think its Hilarious but it is a show that you either hate or love - its pretty full on.
I like Kumar's as well but I reckon Little Britain is funnier Its up there with 'the Young Ones' - if you liked that show then you'll like little Britain.
Mark, I *didn't* say that Irish tunes have been tumbled longer than Scottish tunes. But I suspect that tunes in the hands of Irish players do undergo a different kind of tumbling, and maybe their rounding rate is faster. They are different traditions, no?
Maybe I'm just promulgating a false stereotype, but my completely unfounded and no doubt stupid impression is that some pieces of the Scottish tradition (the GHB repertoire, say, and fiddle bands) place an importance on playing standardized settings of tunes and passing them on that way. More so than does the Irish tradition. Pipers who've gone from the GHB tradition to uillean pipes have told me that difference is night and day--with GHBs, every note and ornament is proscribed. With uillean pipes, you're free to interpret. We've also got things like 300 year old Scottish tunes handed down with reportedly little change in Cape Breton, whereas the Irish jigs and reels that landed in Appalachia morphed into a whole 'nuther genre.
Then again, I'm not sure I agree with the claim made above that Irish tunes sound somehow less contrived than Scottish tunes.
"Yeah but no but yeah but" Shoot, we don't get that show here yet. I just checked on the BBC Imperialist America website and couldn't find it. I'll have to wait I guess.
No but, yeah but, no but, yeah but, no because what happened was, was you know the Redmond sisters? Well they found a verruca sock in the girls' bog and put it in Carrie's bag and she COMPLETELY had an eppy, and turned up to Kamal Sharma's party with a compass and *stabbed* Kamal Sharma, but anyway one of my best friends in the world is Theresa McKenna and she goes to school with Gary Soper's sister and Gary Soper's like the *hardest person in Cotham* cuz once right he went down the canal and he found this tyre and he like threw it at a *swan*. But anyway I ain't never neven used sheetmusic cuz Nadine reckons it stops you from playing proper Irish music but don't listen to her because she had a baby and didn't tell anyone.
OK, I might be the only gay in this forum, but here goes with a bunch of contradictions. And if you can't contradict yourself in art, then ....
Yes, I read music a little, but prefer not to. Sometimes it can take me months to learn a tune to the point where I can say I really have it. And I know I could cut this down to a matter of moments if i refferred to the dots. But I rareley actually make an effort to learn tunes any more. I prefer to just let them sink in, catching a phrase here and there, not noodling, but listening.
There are exeptions ... when I first heard Liz Carrol's lost in the loop I then went and got the CD and sat down with it and the fiddle for a couple of minutes, got frustrated, then went to website and got her dots. Just plain bone idle. Lazy. But it was one of those tunes, like scottish tunes, you have to get spot on.
Then when I first heard Donal Lunny's lepadumdowledum I sat with it on the CD for ages and just couldn'd get my head round it. So I sat with a piece of manuscript paper and went through it bar by bar, writing it down as I went. Suddenly it all made sense as the stgraightforward five part slip jig it is. But this wasn't lazyness, it was clearly to do with my ear not being good enough.
But those are new tunes. So let's take The Bucks as a case study. It's one of those tune I never learned, I just knew it. And what's more, I knew it right. OK so there are a lot of versions kicking about and many is the reply here that each version is as valid as the next. Not so. It's about knowing/learning it right. Now I'm not talking about playing it like a scottish tune, or a new irish tune, I'm not talking about playing it the same every time, I'm simply talking about getting it right. But, and here's the rub, unfortunatly, and yes this is a contradinction, there is no definition of what is right. It's just one of those things you have to learn about Irish music. It can't be explained or written down. (though Will will have a go). All I can say is that the version in this archive is wrong
No because I would never wear tight little pink pvc shorts because once I heard this thing right that this man was wearing tight little pink pvc shorts and a man pushed him off a bridge and the man died and that's true and if you don't believe me you can ask him yourself, and anyway JohnJ tripped up Michael Gill by the waterside and then he had to have 300 stitches in his face, and when his mum found out she *completely* had an eppy, and went down to JohnJ's dad's car showroom and went up to a Vauxhall Astra and done her dirty business on it.
Harmonica not suited (B Bliss)? It’s rare, but I’ve heard a bit that sounded great to me. I think it was on the Gristle and Ham Hock. At first, I thought it was some kinda little single row melodeon, but eventually recognized the truth. I started to go try it, but my fiddle started giving me that you-better-not-touch-another-instrument-until-you’ve-paid-proper-attention-to-me look. I hate it when she guilt-trips me like that.
Just noticed something. Earth shattering events are sometimes hidden. M.G says "there is no right way" in ITM. I've spent 4 months saying just that, usually in discussion with Michael, and it turns out he agrees all along. Cynic my rectum. Wind up merchant indeed.
Bliss: Does that mean you and M.G. are too much alike to get along? Sounds like a wind up contest. If the new pope plays the bodhran, does that mean you are going to be a true believer? However, I don't think it goes well with Gregorian Chants.
Bobhimself: Remember those metal racks for the harmonica to you could play hands free. Maybe you can play both at the same time.
Kerri: but did Matt dance like King Flatley?
Dow: Pink PVC shorts?! I knew this gay hispanic guy that wore pink spandex shorts. We called him "Hispandex."
Jack: sure, no worries
Andee: thanks! But credit where it's due: Patrick, the artist, deserves the greater portion of any kudos - he's a genius.
Zina: Aieee... speak to the genius!
If the only music you want to play is the music you can hear with your own ears or somebodys elses, then dont learn to read music.........if you want to play music from........??? wherever.. all over the world and have a universal language .....then it is a great idea to learn the dots on the page..........
Of course you can play it different and be right, and of course you can play it different and be wrong. You should know that that is the whole marvellous conundrum of this diddley stuff.
Full of contradictions, but, by heck, when it's right it's right, and when it's wrong it's absolutly stick out tlike a sore bloody thumb god damn bloody awful.
Is that a tight Scottish word, a loose Irish word, or what the hell is it.
I was out last night, played ever tune wrong, in a right way, and when everyone moaned, I just said "M.G says there is no right way". Everyone then went, well, if HE says it............
Hi Fiddlerinoz. I just read your profile and thats an interesting take on the irish music scene in Australia. I'm from Australia too and I cant say that you would find Australia tunes at the sessions I play in - maybe some crazy scottish reels sometimes.
Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
They used to tell a story about "The Dubliners". John Shehan the fiddle player was the only one who could read music and took great pride in this, until he was asked by an old man in a remote part of Ireland if he could read music or was he just gifted. That put the bragging out of him.
The point is many classical trained musicians or indeed musicians who learn by reading the tunes, often lack the natural "feel" which those who learn by simply playing develop. Or playing by ear as it is usually known.
I imagine being able to read music and knowing scales and all that would offer some initial advantage, but can it also hinder by making the playing of Irish music sound stilted.
Answers on a post card to Bodhran Bliss, Ireland.
P.S Tom Bliss, are we related?
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Notation, reading, training, theory, etc. are tools. They help if used intelligently and sensitively. They hinder if used incorrectly. The trick is getting to the point where you know the difference. Having the tools sometimes makes this journey take longer, but once you get there, they can only help. Just like any tool, really.
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
im learning 4 string irish folk banjo and blues harmonica using tab. but i am learning music notation (picking it up if you like) at the same time.
i knew rudimentary music and notation from school days, but could not grasp relating strings to notation at the beginning at all. for me anyway tab is the way forward, if i learn musical notation on the way so be it, but in the meantime with tab im learning to play the banjo and play music and really enjoying myself.
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by magusrelax
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
It can help or hinder if you are somebody who insists on playing everything exactly as written then it will hurt horribly because it will sound stifled with no soul I almost always learn tunes from both hearing and the dots it is really the best way for me because I am bad at learning by ear and I have incrdible site reading skills. It is the player not the method of leaning a tune an ear player can sound just as stifled as a dot player it is just that way a person plays the tune.
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by Why Bother?
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Bodhran Bliss: If you were related to Tombliss, his name would have to be TomTombliss. (^:
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
From my own personal viewpoint - I am highly skilled at reading music and have done it almost all my life. It's a skill I value highly. But I rarely apply it to Irish music anymore. Most of my tunes are learned by ear. However, and again this is just me, not everybody - I honestly feel that my knowledge of reading and theory makes it easier for me to learn tunes by ear. But perhaps it doesn't.
I do occasionally trawl through collections looking for new and interesting tunes, and occasionally I learn one that way, but I find it harder to remember these. But to me, this is still the big advantage of reading. Same as being able to read words. I don't often go out and buy books of stories I've heard - I'd rather read a story I haven't heard. Same with tunes - there are some real gems buried in both old and new collections for those who are musically literate. However, you need to have a grounding on the tradition to interpret them.
Equally, if I hear a tune played or on a recording I rarely find that the setting I find in print is the way I want to play it anyway, so I might as well learn it by ear in the first place.
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by kris
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I find reading useful when practising - it's a good aide memoir to help remind me to play everything I know- Ihave pages of the first two bars of a tune written out - it just helps me make sure that all my repertoire gets exercised, so that I'm not rusty with anything I know( thats the theory anyway) If I hear something I like I try to get the music since it helps me get the bare bones of the tune before I start making it mine properly. I resisted learning to read for many years but I have to say that it's opened up a whole world of opportunity for me
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by Kelpie
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I just joined a ceili band. I'm being introduced to a slew of new tunes that I'm not familiar with and being able to read the sheet music enables me to practice the tunes to the point where I’m able to play with the group. This is definitely a positive thing.
I also just started taking a music class in ear training. No written music is distributed to the students until the student has learned the tune by ear. I find that listening to the tune and learning to play by ear enables me to learn the tune *by heart* much quicker than by reading sheet music. Of course you need access to the person who knows the tune or you have to have a recording of the tune. Also, learning by ear also gives the player a better feel for the tune and all its subtleties.
All in all I very much agree with GaryAMartin that “Notation, reading, training, theory, etc. are tools.” I use the tool when I need to use the tool.
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by Pete D
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I began learning to read music at about the age of 5, and it is of course an essential skill for anyone who plays classical music. Over half a century later I got into Irish music, and quickly found in order to get anywhere I had to learn by ear. It took me perhaps two years to acquire that particular skill, which possibly reflects the time it takes for the brain of an older person to develop new learning pathways.
Now, I pick up nearly all my tunes from sessions and workshops and use the dots only to check out something I'm not sure of. If I learn a tune from the dots then I try to use the printed music as no more than a general guide to that tune - an outline or skeleton of the tune shape which I can work on if I want to. And it's always worth reminding oneself that a printed version is no more than a snapshot of one playing of the tune, and shouldn't be treated as Urtext carved in stone.
I generally don't use cds for specific tune learning - there again they are usually specially worked on for the benefit of the recording studio, and the music is often developed far beyond the capabilities of a beginner to learn from - the cds of Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples and Frankie Gavin are obvious examples. I use them just for listening and enjoyment. There are exceptions of course - the Ben Lennon cds, which sound as if they aren't all that far removed from a typical good session, can be used for tune learning, as can many of the cds and videos by ceili bands for set dancing. And don't forget the Ceilidh House broadcasts if you can get them.
Trevor
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
CeolCairdeas,
bodhran = tomtom. Hah! the penny's dropped
Trevor
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I agree with Trevor. It's not a good idea to learn tunes from the recordings of highly inventive musicians, such as Martin Hayes: they sometimes play very unusual settings of well-known tunes in weird keys. Of course, it's fun to learn their settings once we got a common version of a tune.
And yes, ceili bands usually have more session-friendly settings of standard tunes. And they also teach us which notes to emphasize and where to put effective variations, etc.
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by slainte
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Good thread, BB, but I'm just wondering; what does sheet music for bodhran look like?
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Good point, Jack.
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by slainte
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
One of the great bluesmen,(was it Leadbelly?),when asked if he could read music said,"Yes,but not enough to affect my playing."
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
It helps tremendously for a great many reasons, incuding i) if you can remember tunes but not titles ii) if you want to give a tune to somebody who can't play by ear iii) coming across new tunes in obscure places (like sheet music section of 0xfam shop) iv) for quickly jotting down a tune one's heard, to learn it later.
It's also a great shorthand. I knew a fool who claimed he 'didn't need' to read music. Five minutes later he was floundering around trying to explain to another musican (new to folk music) the difference between and ordonary jig and a slip jig. I just said "Jig is 6/8; slip jig's 9/8" and the other guy understood immediately.
When used as a tool is is wonderful; I wish I could sight read better, and I would love to know more theory. But you have to watch that you don't let it restrict you.
I have never met anybody who regrets being able to read music, but I've met several who can't who say it's a bad thing and a hindrance!
Sour grapes?????
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by flying tigerpig
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I already know how to talk, what the hell do I need literature for?
It's one thing being illiterate, it's quite another to be proud of it.
KFG
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Sheet music for the bodhran would theoretically be rhythm charts as used by drummers, wouldn't they? The late Frank Zappa used these extensively as one of the criteria for choosing drummers for his band......
Jim Dorans
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Rhythm charts? Is that not some form of birth control.
The only difference between me and Grapelli is that I can read writing, and we play different instruments.
As I said at the start, I imagine it would be a help, but over reliance could be a hindrance. I always look at James Galway, his flute playing is beyond reproach, but he struggles with Irish music.
In short, is a "feel" for the music more valuable than the ability to read music, read tabs, and practice birth control?
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I've already described a bodhran rhythm chart. It consists of a blank piece of paper.
One can play music without knowing a lick of reading, indeed, this is how all music was orginally developed. One can also learn great works of literature through the oral method, indeed, this how "literature" was orginally developed. With out "feel" there is no music, just tones in succession. One can recite Shakepeare in a steady rhythmic monotone, ignoring the meter of the verse or the emontional information of the words, as well. The words are still there, the meaning of the words is still there, but the poetry is gone.
I still find it rather useful that the plays are written down. Greece came out of its Dark Age almost entirely because the people in the oral tradition found it very useful in memorizing their Homer if they had a printed copy of the bloody thing. The Bards found it very useful as well, because now their students could memorize the words on their own, instead of taking up years of the Bards time just teaching the words. Then they could concentrate on teaching the correct feel. As a result more people could recite Homer and do so well and each one of them was more available to give recitations, as their time was more available
Including people today, whereas without the text Homer would have been completely lost to us, as most Irish music, precolumbuan American music, Babylonian music, etc, has become lost to us.
Yes, people who simply learned the words, or simply read them straight from the text (as is almost universally done today) without access to a Bard could screw it all up and destroy the poetry. That is not the fault of the text. The tool is a passive object. Only the weilder of the tool is responsible for the outcome. Gary got it right in the first go and the thread could have ended right there.
Listen, listen, listen alright, but it would be silly to learn a language and eschew the knowledge of it contained in dictionaries, wouldn't it? Dictionaries can't teach you how to speak a language, for instance, knowledge of how Latin is spoken is dead, because we have no aural record of spoken Latin, but they remain a valuable resource for the speaker, nonetheless.
Galway's problem with Irish music is not the fault of the dots, but rather in what he was taught to do with them. The problem is people. The problem is always bloody people.
So let's hear it for birth control
KFG
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Remember that old ticker tape they had before WW I for sending Morse Code? Dot dot dash etc... Maybe we could use that for bodhran.
I envy everyone at this site that has strong sessions. My experience in the US is that the strongest sessions are in locations that have had the most Irish immigration, such as Boston, New York, Chicago, and San Francisco. In smaller cities and towns, you see tentative groups with sheet music out at sessions. While I appreciate the people that sit in and play classical violin, they often have no gut feeling for the tunes. Some of the best sessions I have had have happened due to my begging and bribing Bluegrass friends to sit in for a few cross over tunes, such as Cuckoo's Nest. (^:
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
There you have it: over reliance.
It's not the ability that hinders, but the tendency to believe that it's the only ability you need for the task.
In the case of Galway, I doubt very much that it's a case of over-reliance on reading music that's the problem. It's probably more an over-reliance on technical skills. It's been 20 years since I've listened to him, but my impression was that he had the same problem (at least to my ears) with the baroque and classical repertoire. He was showing off his technique and playful musical inventiveness, and wowing the audience with his charisma and stage presence, but didn't really dig deeply into the soul of the music. I carefully avoided his forays into Irish music. (I don't think I even bought any of his classical recordings, though I heard them on the radio, listened to ones that friends bought, and played them on the radio when I was a DJ in college in the 70s.)
To expand on what flying tigerpig (sorry, I'm typing offline so I can't check your profile to see if you have another name) was saying:
There's a fiddler who has been coming to our session and music parties for about five years who doesn't read music. He's a good player with a good feel for the music and knows some great tunes. But the list of tunes he knows has been stuck somewhere around 50 for all that time. When we introduce new tunes into the session, it excludes him. He can sometimes pick up bits and pieces on the fly, but never seems inclined to get hold of a recording and actually learn the tunes. If he could overcome his resistance to the idea of reading music, I think he'd learn new tunes much more quickly and have more fun at the sessions.
So now to conclude and to finish my song, here's my current feeling for music from just about any oral/aural tradition:
Playing by ear - essential skill
Reading music - extremely useful, but not necessary skill
A feel for the music - essential (and independent of skills)
The hinderance comes from complaceny, laziness, or ego - thinking that one or two of these can make up for the ones that are missing or weak.
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
While sheet music can be helpful if used properly, Irish music (and many other genres) should be learned by ear since the sheet music gives only an approximation of the timing, accents, ornaments, and sometimes pitch of the music.
The real value of sheet music is in archiving tunes. Tunes can be kept (as traditional notation or tabulature) in alphabetical order according to title, tune, key, etc. and found again easily to jog the memory. For someone who does not read notes, the only archival method I have heard of is to keep actual recordings of the music. While this preserves the mussic in a more accurate fashion thanm written forms, the retrieval would seem to be a bit cumbersome. Trying to find a particular tune on a 90 minute cassette from a session would seem to be a difficult as trying to find a particular paragraph in a novel written on a 90 ft scrool with no index.
The tunes should be learned by ear and kept in written form.
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by Nfg
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I use the dots like a road map. Although improving with time, I don't have the quick ear that most of the gifted people here have. So when I can't find way, I use the dots to get back on track. I'm the same way about partial assembly required stuff and the directions that come with it. I only break them out when I can't figure out how to put it together or end up with spare parts.
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by Robby B.
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
If I can take a little umbridge with the "flying tiger pig" ...
Quote, "I knew a fool who claimed he 'didn't need' to read music".
It's not clear whether this person was a fool because they claimed that they didn't need to reed music, or that they were meerly a fool. However, the anecdote lacks a specific logic. If the other musician, the one new to folk music, had anything of a musical ear, then the difference between a jig and a slipjig would have been clear to them. The "fool" should have been able to play a phrase of a jig, then a phrase of a slip jig, and the "shorthand" would have been redundent.
Now I'm not saying, and never had, that music notation is not a wonderful tool, but to compare its usefulness in diddley music in terms of neccesity with that of great literiture and the written word is to oversetimate the complexity of diddley music.
What we have in this great tradition of ours is very small packages of music, usually very short, repetative, and in simple scales. I'm afraid that the truth is that no, we do not need the written note in order to play this music. The human memory is more than adequate in its abiltiy to store tens of thousands of these little packages of brilliance.
But back to the original question ... Yes, I've seen people hindered by their abillity to read, but as KFG says, the problem is always the bloody people, not the dots themselves.
But the real point, and the only one that people who read absoulutly hasve to pay attention to. Is that it is absolutly completely and uterley impossible to play this music if you can't do it by ear.
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Hear, hear!
Trevor
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Is this a trap?
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Hey, don't get paranoid, you've been hanging around musicians long enough to be able to post an interesting question. fair play to you
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Bliss: Agreement with Michael Gill feel a little strange? I kinda got turned around too, from threats to agreement. Hope springs eternal.
I agree with Trevor_J : hear, hear, by ear, ear!
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Jayzus, how does that second part go? (looks it up)
# Posted on April 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Should I hum a few bars for you Jack?
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Thanks anyway, but I got it now. (goes on playing the tune very poorly)
I have found the dots very helpful, but not for learning necessarily... more for remembering. I always prefer to have a tune in my head before I begin learning it -- saves so much time and the result is better. On the occasion that I do learn a tune by the dots I try to find a recording or someone that knows it to check it against.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
While I agree with Nfg that sheet music only gives an approximation of timing, accents, ornaments etc. - he might be interested to know that any specialist in, say, Baroque music, will tell you the same thing. What that means is that those who play from the dots need to have a deep understanding of the genre in which they are playing. A great many musical styles require you to "read between the lines" and are often written down with the expectation that the player will be able to do just that.
Whether I learn a tune from dots, a session, a recording or an individual, it is ultimately up to me to decide whether the style and setting is as "authentic" and "traditional" as I wish it to be.
I would rather hear a player with a deep understanding of traditional style play a tune he learned form a book than hear someone who simply has a "quick ear" play a tune he learned at a mediocre session.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by kris
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I have "dyslexia", an overused term for visual learning disabilities. So I am consequently an auditory learner. So I think auditory for me is much more important but I can understand others that personally think visual learning is more or as important. I would expect musicians to have more auditory accuity, and therefore in general auditory learning may be more important.
Kris: I would agree with "deep understanding" but may want to push this farther toward "feeling" the music. "Lament for the First Generation" played in a hearfelt manner (e.g. Liz Carroll) might bring tears. A rollicking jig or reel in solo practice might be so much fun that you repeat several times to enjoy yourself more in playing the music.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
When I learn a tune--whether it's from another player, a recording, or the dots--my goal is the same: to hear the tune in my head. I can do that by listening to someone else play it, or by looking at the dots (or abcs).
In a sense, then, translating the dots into sound is just another way to "learn by ear." Yes, it takes a solid feel for the music developed by listening to it, but that's true of any genre.
And I'd no more assume that the tune should be played "exactly as written" than I would assume that it should be played exactly as someone else plays it.
That said, I prefer to learn tunes by ear, from another player, in person. But recordings and the dots are handy ways to store for later retrieval. And they afford another way of looking at the music that sometimes helps me understand its form.
And *that* said, the dots are only a hindrance when they become a crutch that prevents or slows you from learning tunes aurally.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I'm so sick of hearing people say that written music is useless because it does not properly represent the tunes. Talk about stating the obvious. If you read this paragraph by sounding the letters out as written, it would sound pretty strange wouldn't it? But then if you weren't reading this now you wouldn't know what I was saying because you wouldn't be able to hear me talk out loud, would you? The letters in this paragraph are there for the same reason as the written tune posts to this site - as a quick visual medium of transmission and nothing more. Having said that, for this music I find abc much more useful than dots. With abc you can jot a tune down on the fly at a session on any old scrap of paper. Dots are a waste of time because you either have to use manuscript paper or draw stave lines yourself.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning Dowsie
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
No because what happened was was you know Kevin Flanagan, well he's been going round saying that I said Shelley's mum smells of mud well she does but I never said it so shut up.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Seriously though, Beebs don't you agree? It's blatantly obvious that notes on a sheet of paper can only be a representation of the actual tune you hear. This isn't bloody rocket science
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Something else has just struck me about this debate and it has to do with my crusade against there being too many tunes.
While alot of people here agree that learning tuns by ear is the best way, there is also general agreement that writing tunes down is the best way to remember them. It seems obvious, there for, that if we only remembered them in our heads, there'd be alot less tunesd kicking about and that the regional differences this music once proudly posessed would return.
I think your brain is a great filter of detritus.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I see your point, Michael, but surely demise or convergence of regional styles is more to do with other aspects of the modern world, e.g. CDs, International touring bands, cheap and easy transport around the world--musicians are much more mobile these days, and so on.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Sorry John, I'll re phrase:
While alot of people here agree that learning tuns by ear is the best way, there is also general agreement that writing tunes down is the best way to remember them. It seems obvious, there for, that if we only remembered them in our heads, there'd be alot less tunesd kicking.
I think your brain is a great filter of detritus
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Michael, I didn't expect you to agree with me.
Actually, I think the wide availability of written music probably is a factor too, though by no means the only one
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
And there is another thing here about writing tunes down that, seeings John is available, may be worth discussing. And that is the difference between Diddley and Diddly, Irish and Scottish dance tunes/music.
I think that a major contributor to the differences between the two is that Scottish music had begun to be written down much earlier than Irish music. There is a thing about Scottish music that anyone who plays both will have to agree is that it's really tight and accurate. It's very much harder to faff scottish tunes, you really do have to know them very well, where as Irish tunes are mush looser, more fluid, less precise.
Though I find now, with the "modern" tunes written in the "Irish idiom" that they are siding more with the Scottish tradition of having to be very tight. This I am sure is the direct concequence of them being recorded (I refer to both mechanical recordings and written recordings).
I miss the looseness of it.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
blimey - back from a weekend on the road and look at this thread! bit of an obsession for me
brilliant to hear of another dyslexic (CeolCairdeas) with the same problem - did they give you an extra hard time at school because you were musical yet wouldn't read music? started on the fiddle aged 3 and romped off till they tried to teach me the dots. then it was hell for 15 years. blighted my life! I can write music down (I know all the theory ) and use it as an aid memoire - and even work out a simple tune very very VERY slowly, but completely impossible to sight read. how may kids have this condition and are turned off music for life by the stupid system and teachers who only think about orchestras?
firmly believe kids should be blindfolded (metaphorically, at least) when they first start to play. teach them to use their ears. THEN maybe learn the flysh*t because it is useful. i use it to teach band members and session players. but it's like leaning languages - even the BBC, (an audio medium, for goodness sake) make the mistake of publishing huge books on how to learn a foreign language, with a wee tape at the back for the pronounciation. how stupid is that?
try teaching a baby to talk by showing them words on a page, eh?
whole system is back to front imo.
me? related to a bodhran player? oh hek!
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by tombliss
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
The dots are only a snapshot.
Remember James Galway doing a recoding with the Chieftains. They provided him with some dots but they played it totally differently. When he commented on what was written down, they said - oh, they used to play it like that.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
The dots are a big help in learning tunes. I am slow to learn, so I hear a tune I like, take home the bare bones of it, check against sheet music to see if I have it right, take it back to the session to find out if the sheet music really captured the way we play it, work on the tricky parts to master them, and back and forth till I have it. I never learned to read music very well when I was young, but am glad I know how. And now that I am in a group, there are many skills that I gained from the school band and church choir, such as reading music, knowing how to make an entrance, figuring and writing out harmonies, etc. that are extremely valuable.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I'm kind of skimming here, but I read Trevor's post way back and that's exactly my story as well, so I have almost nothing to contribute, except this: I'm happy to have the ability to read and write music as a memory aid. If I hear a tune I like at a session I can grab a napkin and scribble out a couple of bars. Then I can ask hours and hours later, referring to my napkin "Hey, what's that tune that went 'diddly die-dly diddly die'" and they will give me a name, which I can either look up in my music books (rare) or hassle them to play it every time I see them until I finally get it into my head (frequent).
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
The point being ... you used the music to get it into your head. Think about how you would feel if you only used your head. OK so you'd probasbly end up knowing less tunes, but I think it's worth it.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Michael that was a really interesting observation about Scottish tunes and modern Irish ones.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
".....It's very much harder to faff scottish tunes, you really do have to know them very well, where as Irish tunes are mush looser, more fluid, less precise..."
I totally agree, Michael.
Jim Dorans
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I posted on this a while back (months), and have come to a new realization of how it works for me. For a bit, I was learning tunes via the sheet music, which I still do to some extent. There are a couple of tunes I've never heard recorded or live, that I have fell in love with only from learning the music from the dots.
),
Also, I find it extremely useful as a learning tool to transcribe tunes from recordings. Just recently, I was learning a hornpipe, not a trad tune, but a composition by the whistle player of the CD I was listening to. It was pretty fast, and I was having a hard time learning it just by playing along. So, I grabbed my manuscript paper notebook, sat with the CD player and my whistle, and proceeded to transcribe the tune, as I heard it. (play CD - play whistle - stop - rewind - write dots - play CD - play along with dots - check work - rewind - repeat). In this way, I find I'm able to learn a tune in one sitting, then essentially, I can throw away the sheet music I've just written (of course, after posting my work here
So, I guess I'm still learning by ear, essentially, but just using the dots to "get it into my head" as MG says so eloquently.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Yes, I think it's true that Scottish tunes tend to be structured in such a way that accuracy is important. Some of them are very simple too, of course, but I find it harder to pick them up "on the fly" or "bluff" my way through if I haven't learned them properly(or forgotten them). I know you're not supposed to do this.
With Scottish tunes, you can tell they have been composed at one time by an individual. I know that Irish tunes have as well but they just feel "more natural" somehow as if they've always been there.
I'm probably the opposite as regarding the use of music. It tends to be the other way round. I'll listen to a tune to "get it into my head" if I am learning a tune from dots. I can sight read fairly well now but it's just the melody line I use (for fiddle/mandolin and so on). However, I originally picked everything up by ear and only became quite good at reading music through necessity when I started to play with a fiddle society. Most of the time, though, I just pretend to look at the music once I've learned the music by heart(by ear or otherwise)
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
"Yes, but not enough to affect my playing."
I think that’s true for me. I can read music, but I very, very rarely sight read (except for singing an *arrangement*). When I refer to sheet music for a tune, it’s practically always because I’ve heard the tune and have it partly or mostly in my head and I just need to clarify the muddy parts – usually isolated measures which I immediately memorize. I don’t remember ever learning a tune from the dots without first hearing it many times. The style and feel of the tune are already in my head before I look at the dots.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I find I can;t get into a tune simply by reading the dots - I have to hear it to get interested in it. I can look at the dots and play through them 30 times, but until I hear an inspired version, it won't "click."
I can usually figure out aywhere from 60-90% of a given tune by ear, but there's always a few tricky bits whe looking at the staff music helps sort things out.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Several years ago I made a New Year's resolution and forced myself to start learning classical guitar "properly" - this after years of slowing down ragtime guitar records and picking up the stuff by ear. I bought one of the standard tutors, and the first thing the guy said went something like this: "The mistake many beginners make is giving up the sheet music for a piece too early, and playing from memory." So I gritted my teeth and forced myself to play from the music. But my mind would wander, and I'd be off playing from memory again in no time. My resolution lasted about four weeks.
This stuff happened me as an eight-year-old taking piano lessons too, and I'm sure I've got permanently damaged knuckles from the raps I got when I played the tune with the book opened to the wrong page.
So I've come to believe I have a mental block (or ADD, or whatever) when it comes to sight-reading. I can figure a tune out from the dots, it gets burned in my memory quickly, and after that I can't bring myself to concentrate on the dots any more. And then I go and play it with other folks without the music, and sometimes I pick up some of their little twists. And I unthinkingly add in triplets and stuff in spots where I've heard Tommy Peoples or Angela Carberry do it on CD. And by the time I come back to refresh my memory with the dots, sometimes it's not quite the same tune at all.
So I've learned the bones of most of my tunes from the sheet music, and yet I don't feel too bad because I'm a lousy sight-reader.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by grego
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
"With Scottish tunes, you can tell they have been composed at one time by an individual. I know that Irish tunes have as well but they just feel "more natural" somehow as if they've always been there."
Hmmm. Well, Johnny J, perhaps you've really struck something there. Perhaps that's why there's so many (too many, in Michael's world) tunes. Because there's an individualistic version of every tune for every single muso out there, and sometimes/often that version is different on a different day or moment.
If your music form values individuality, then of course you're going to end up with more tunes. If your music form values homogeny, then of course everything about it will foment and support that.
Food for thought there.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
John J: "...Scottish tunes tend to be structured in such a way that accuracy is important..."
A lot of Irish tunes are Scottish tunes with the corners knocked off.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Congratulations Greg, you're a totally trad player!
The reason Irish tunes feel less contrived is that they've been tumbled around in the folk process so long, they're polished down to their essential tune-ness. Pebbles in the stream, as it were.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
And the tumbleing around process NECCESSITATES that it is not recorded (either mechanically or with dots) otherwise there is always a "correct" version to go back to
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Don't be silly, Michael. There's only people who think that the recorded version is the correct version. Like, apparently, you. *smirk* (Teasing. I'm teasing you.)
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Trevor: re. Bodhran Bliss and TomTomBliss and the penny being dropped. Do the Wren Boys still leave with their bodhrans and tom toms for a penny?
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I'd take a longer view of things, Michael. A recording may inhibit the tumbling of a tune for a time, but eventually that recording loses its influence. For example, we still run into fiddlers who slavishly play Coleman's setting of the Tarbolton set, but not everyone does. Some of us tinker with the tunes as a backlash against such copying, some of us tinker out of ignorance (never having heard the model), and some tinker out of unstoppable creative urges.
In fact, you could argue that by exposing tunes to a wider pool of players, recordings actually enhance the tumbling process. Case in point--I posted one of my own tunes here, and through the written and midi record, someone picked it up. It then entered the stream and washed up in Belgium with no name and in a different key. A key that I now play it in myself. This all happened in less than one year...imagine if it tumbles around for a generation or ten.
In short, it's not the recordings themselves that trap tunes like a bug in amber, but the mindset of the listeners. But I'd wager that most trad players don't think that way--we like to tinker with tunes, no matter how we swoon over so and so's version on their latest cd. And the longer we play this music, the more inclined to tinker we become, so the trapped-in-amber syndrome tends to be most prevalent among newbies, who have less influence over the direction of the tradition's creep.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Another case in point. On a whim, I just looked at Alan Ng's list of the top 100 most recorded Irish tunes. Number 2 is Michael's favorite, the Bucks. Alan's got it on 23 different recordings, and there are 51 albums listed under the Bucks in the tune archives here. Most if not all of these recorded versions are significantly different from the next. And everytime I've ever heard any decent musician play this tune, they aimed to put their own stamp on it. It's hard to see how the earliest recorded source sealed the Bucks off from continued tumbling.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Dots as a useful tool: Consider the tune "Dusty Windowsill." The author was inspired with the tune but could only remember it by writing the dots on a dusty windowsill. My question is; did he use staff or ABC notation?
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
You can never be less by knowing more.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by Ailin
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I can *play* a tune more quickly if I read the music, but I can't remember it very well if I am working from the paper. I can *learn* a tune more quickly if I can listen to it (over and over).
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by fluti31415
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Surprisingly I never learnt music, even at primary (junior) school.
I had a mandolin for 30 years before someone showed me a few scales, putting your fingers in a different place to play the same tune or song, as JfiddlerH referred to. I must admit it was wondrous, you could just play around a song on the scales, like a blues harp. I'd never been able to do that because I didn't know the scales, and after 40 years on the blues harp I still do not know what any of the notes are. You just play the thing, same with a harmonica where I could play loads of Irish tunes, although a harmonica is not really suited to playing ITM to say the least.
You just memorised tunes. I have come across a lot of sight readers and such recently, and was impressed. But some of them are a bit stilted with the tunes.
I mean my child (nearly 20) can just lift the mandolin and play tunes because he knows the notes, which you've already guessed, I don't. And he doesn't play the mandolin. Now things like that impress someone who knows nothing about notes, sight reading, reading music, or 2/4, 6/8 time.
But I can still play. Perhaps a combination of the two is best?
And yes, M.G was right. If you can't play by ear, forget ITM.
Just looking out the window to see if the world has ended.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
"The reason Irish tunes feel less contrived is that they've been tumbled around in the folk process so long, they're polished down to their essential tune-ness. Pebbles in the stream, as it were".
?????? Will, do you mean that Irish tunes are older than Scottish ones?
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
hahaha - Dow - I just read your post - Didnt anybody else get that he was doing Vickie Pollard? So funny.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Who?
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
There is a show on BBC called "Little Britain", Dow is spot on when he does this character called Vickie Pollard and that is no small feat because most people cant even understand what she is saying. Its hard to describe but def worth a look if you can get your hands on it Jack. I think its Hilarious but it is a show that you either hate or love - its pretty full on.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I like 'Kumar's at No. 42'. But I'll keep a look out for that one.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I like Kumar's as well but I reckon Little Britain is funnier Its up there with 'the Young Ones' - if you liked that show then you'll like little Britain.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Mark, I *didn't* say that Irish tunes have been tumbled longer than Scottish tunes. But I suspect that tunes in the hands of Irish players do undergo a different kind of tumbling, and maybe their rounding rate is faster. They are different traditions, no?
Maybe I'm just promulgating a false stereotype, but my completely unfounded and no doubt stupid impression is that some pieces of the Scottish tradition (the GHB repertoire, say, and fiddle bands) place an importance on playing standardized settings of tunes and passing them on that way. More so than does the Irish tradition. Pipers who've gone from the GHB tradition to uillean pipes have told me that difference is night and day--with GHBs, every note and ornament is proscribed. With uillean pipes, you're free to interpret. We've also got things like 300 year old Scottish tunes handed down with reportedly little change in Cape Breton, whereas the Irish jigs and reels that landed in Appalachia morphed into a whole 'nuther genre.
Then again, I'm not sure I agree with the claim made above that Irish tunes sound somehow less contrived than Scottish tunes.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
"Yeah but no but yeah but" Shoot, we don't get that show here yet. I just checked on the BBC Imperialist America website and couldn't find it. I'll have to wait I guess.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
How did you know that she says 'yeah, but no, but yeah'??? Are you teasing me Jack????
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Opps - left out the
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
When I looked for the show I said, "I want that one."
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Aiiieeeee - Jack stop it! "I dont like it"
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
"I'm a lady. I do ladies' things"
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
"noo, But anyway.....I'm allergic to cat hair so I don't even have to answer that'!
I can see you as a lady Jack - you'd give Emily Howard a run for her money
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
"Write the theme tune, sing the theme tune"
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Where is Dow in all this???
I know they have realeased the first series on DVD maybe you should buy it jack? Or do you already have it by any chance?
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
If you want Dow to come, just say "HORNPIPE"!!!!
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Hmmm... ok... *ahem*Hornpipes should be played fast and without too much of a swing.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
My god! Its still not working Jack! Has the world gone mad??? How bout this.
I love the Winbroke any tune written by Tola Custy!
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I really love Michael McGoldrick tunes... I think they should be played at sessions all the time as much as possible.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Yeah Jack? Same here
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
If that doesn't get Dow -- nothing will. The authorities must have fianally picked him up.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
finally even
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
think hes at work
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bb
ZzzzZZZZzzzzzZZZZZzzzzz
Ok, I'm off to bed. It's up to you Auzzies to keep the fire going till the Brits and Irish wake up.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Squeak?
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Pádraig
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
As Tom Baker might have said in Little Britain.
"School children in Britain are remarkably stupid and untalented. So they have to be sent to school where they learn to read music."
This was similar to an actual quote from the series but I embellished it a little.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
No but, yeah but, no but, yeah but, no because what happened was, was you know the Redmond sisters? Well they found a verruca sock in the girls' bog and put it in Carrie's bag and she COMPLETELY had an eppy, and turned up to Kamal Sharma's party with a compass and *stabbed* Kamal Sharma, but anyway one of my best friends in the world is Theresa McKenna and she goes to school with Gary Soper's sister and Gary Soper's like the *hardest person in Cotham* cuz once right he went down the canal and he found this tyre and he like threw it at a *swan*. But anyway I ain't never neven used sheetmusic cuz Nadine reckons it stops you from playing proper Irish music but don't listen to her because she had a baby and didn't tell anyone.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
OK, I might be the only gay in this forum, but here goes with a bunch of contradictions. And if you can't contradict yourself in art, then ....
Yes, I read music a little, but prefer not to. Sometimes it can take me months to learn a tune to the point where I can say I really have it. And I know I could cut this down to a matter of moments if i refferred to the dots. But I rareley actually make an effort to learn tunes any more. I prefer to just let them sink in, catching a phrase here and there, not noodling, but listening.
There are exeptions ... when I first heard Liz Carrol's lost in the loop I then went and got the CD and sat down with it and the fiddle for a couple of minutes, got frustrated, then went to website and got her dots. Just plain bone idle. Lazy. But it was one of those tunes, like scottish tunes, you have to get spot on.
Then when I first heard Donal Lunny's lepadumdowledum I sat with it on the CD for ages and just couldn'd get my head round it. So I sat with a piece of manuscript paper and went through it bar by bar, writing it down as I went. Suddenly it all made sense as the stgraightforward five part slip jig it is. But this wasn't lazyness, it was clearly to do with my ear not being good enough.
But those are new tunes. So let's take The Bucks as a case study. It's one of those tune I never learned, I just knew it. And what's more, I knew it right. OK so there are a lot of versions kicking about and many is the reply here that each version is as valid as the next. Not so. It's about knowing/learning it right. Now I'm not talking about playing it like a scottish tune, or a new irish tune, I'm not talking about playing it the same every time, I'm simply talking about getting it right. But, and here's the rub, unfortunatly, and yes this is a contradinction, there is no definition of what is right. It's just one of those things you have to learn about Irish music. It can't be explained or written down. (though Will will have a go). All I can say is that the version in this archive is wrong
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Michael you're not a gay, you're probably just a little bit poofy.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
"What are you doing with that music stand. I'm the only sight reader in this session!"
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I can't read!
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
What? you can't read? Think of all the cock and bum fun you're missing
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I'm sure most people have seen this, but if not - here's a slightly different take on the issue:
http://www.capetrad.co.za/ganainm/index.php?strip_id=20
(including the next few strips - press 'next')
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Q
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Michael,
Can you explain that a bit more.
What’s wrong with the version here.
If Kevin Burke playes a slightly different version to Tommy Peoples , which version is right ?
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by BegF
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I don’t know what Dow looks like, but I now have a horrible picture of a guy in tight little pink pvc shorts.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by BegF
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
No because I would never wear tight little pink pvc shorts because once I heard this thing right that this man was wearing tight little pink pvc shorts and a man pushed him off a bridge and the man died and that's true and if you don't believe me you can ask him yourself, and anyway JohnJ tripped up Michael Gill by the waterside and then he had to have 300 stitches in his face, and when his mum found out she *completely* had an eppy, and went down to JohnJ's dad's car showroom and went up to a Vauxhall Astra and done her dirty business on it.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
I'm going to be sick....I hope you're happy.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by BegF
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Maybe he is, maybe he isn't!
Ask me a question and I'll tell ye no lies. "Does this forum contain NUTS?"
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
ahem, "cock and bum" fun?
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Hey everyone, Matt used to only play Riverdance tunes!
(you should be ashamed of yourself.)
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Harmonica not suited (B Bliss)? It’s rare, but I’ve heard a bit that sounded great to me. I think it was on the Gristle and Ham Hock. At first, I thought it was some kinda little single row melodeon, but eventually recognized the truth. I started to go try it, but my fiddle started giving me that you-better-not-touch-another-instrument-until-you’ve-paid-proper-attention-to-me look. I hate it when she guilt-trips me like that.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
But I've changed! I can now play TV theme tunes. Like 'The Wombles' and 'The Littlest Hobo' and 'Mr Belvedere'!
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Q
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Hey Matt, can I link to your comics?
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
The new Pope plays the bodhran, but he can read music. And he is infallible.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
And when, Matty, when, are you going to do some new ones? Sheeeesh.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Just noticed something. Earth shattering events are sometimes hidden. M.G says "there is no right way" in ITM. I've spent 4 months saying just that, usually in discussion with Michael, and it turns out he agrees all along. Cynic my rectum. Wind up merchant indeed.
# Posted on April 19th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Matt! I LOVE your comics!
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by Andee
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Michael;
'Ooooohhhhhh my god, I sooooo cant believe you just said tha........stop giving me evils'!
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Bliss: Does that mean you and M.G. are too much alike to get along? Sounds like a wind up contest. If the new pope plays the bodhran, does that mean you are going to be a true believer? However, I don't think it goes well with Gregorian Chants.
Bobhimself: Remember those metal racks for the harmonica to you could play hands free. Maybe you can play both at the same time.
Kerri: but did Matt dance like King Flatley?
Dow: Pink PVC shorts?! I knew this gay hispanic guy that wore pink spandex shorts. We called him "Hispandex."
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Jack: sure, no worries
Andee: thanks! But credit where it's due: Patrick, the artist, deserves the greater portion of any kudos - he's a genius.
Zina: Aieee... speak to the genius!
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by Q
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Matt, the art is fantastic, but the situations are dead on funny as well! I was bummed when they ran out, I want more!
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by Andee
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
If the only music you want to play is the music you can hear with your own ears or somebodys elses, then dont learn to read music.........if you want to play music from........??? wherever.. all over the world and have a universal language .....then it is a great idea to learn the dots on the page..........
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by Fiddlerinoz
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
wow the pope is a bodhran player ......well that prob explains the rhythm method
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by Fiddlerinoz
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
'couse there's a right way you dozy twazack.
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
So can two people play it differntly and both be right ?
And what's wrong with the version of Bucks here ?
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by BegF
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Of course you can play it different and be right, and of course you can play it different and be wrong. You should know that that is the whole marvellous conundrum of this diddley stuff.
Full of contradictions, but, by heck, when it's right it's right, and when it's wrong it's absolutly stick out tlike a sore bloody thumb god damn bloody awful.
# Posted on April 20th 2005 by ...
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Twazack? I'm beginning to warm to M.G.
Is that a tight Scottish word, a loose Irish word, or what the hell is it.
I was out last night, played ever tune wrong, in a right way, and when everyone moaned, I just said "M.G says there is no right way". Everyone then went, well, if HE says it............
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Hi Fiddlerinoz. I just read your profile and thats an interesting take on the irish music scene in Australia. I'm from Australia too and I cant say that you would find Australia tunes at the sessions I play in - maybe some crazy scottish reels sometimes.
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Hmmm - that was completley of the subject - sorry!
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by bb
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Hey, in Australia do you read the music upside-down?
(I'm just leaving........)
Jim
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Reading music: Does it help or hinder?
Jim - that was a shocker!
# Posted on April 21st 2005 by bb