The Session >> Discussions >> Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Comments
Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Good lass is Alice - met her in the Catskills last year, both of us equally surprised to see each other there.
Big Mick's rationale for the David, George, etc., thing is that during a session you can't distinguish between D or G for example, they just sound the same. Never come across tic-tac hand signals though.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Yeah, i've seen that. but it works best for box players to do it with their right hand. And I've seen pipers do it with their right hand while just rolling a top A or B.
The Edinburgh code is straight forward but unfortunatly requires a loty of asterixes for this touchy feely scared to offend anyone site:
G = gonad
D = dick (as in short for richard)
A = ar**
F = f***
C = c***
and the odd one out, E = Eric (nobody knows why)
We don't really care about the major/minor thing so that it discourages strummers from piling in with strident thirds
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I think I mentioned this once before but the late Iain Grant, a moothie player who used to run the Sunday afternoon session in Sandy Bells(he knew hundreds of great Scottish tunes), used to give hand signals too, e.g.
G = 1 finger (1 sharp)
D = 2 fingers(2 sharps)
A + 3 fingers(3 sharps)
C was a level wave of the hand
For flat keys, he also used one finger for each flat but pointed downwards.
His predecessor, George, also uses the same system.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I've never heard of the hand signals thing but i would say
BRING IT BACK!!!!. How many of us have been at a session, only to have the momentum taken out of tunes by a guitarist going into the wrong key, this happens to me alot partly because i do not possess the magical ability to speak when i'm playing, so i kinda rely on their own judgement with a few funny looks if they've guessed wrong. It would be easy to impliment, every one here agree a meaning for each of the symbols,(Jeremy could have the final word??) and then pass it through all our session networks. Put it in instrument tutor books right in the sections where they teach you what a treble clef is. Then pester the media to do a news story on it coming up to the Fleadh.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I've just realised the system won't work and you've all guessed who's responsible! Bodhran Bliss, He really doesn't know a musical key from his back door key, he works on a fool proof system of spacing his fingers on a mandolin in differant shapes for differant tunes, he has gained some awareness of keys since i started playing with him but you couldn't stretch it to the term knowledge, so alas the whole plan will have to be shelved as it is incompatible with the infallable Bliss! Or we could just soldier on and ostrich-size Bliss from our musical fraternity? It's your call Michael Gill
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I've seen the fingers up, fingers down and a flat wave of the hand, but never a open palm or fist, what did those mean, tuner&brian? Let's see -- one of those have to be for C?
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Putting your fingers in a different place was taught to me by Charlie Maguire. Anyone wishing to criticise this musical family should be aware that it carries a government health risk.
And as John J points out, I can play the bodhran in any key, especially M and G.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Ok i may be sounding like a really daft fiddler here and completely going off the discussion but for fiddlers whats the point of knowing the key if you dont know the tune? Its ok for the guitarists, accordianists etc... But apart from playing the random notes of the main chords (because i cant pick the tunes up fast enough at session speed) what can a fiddler (or whistler or anyone else) do? Any help?
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Maybe, they expect you to "noodle". However, I find it a help even when I know the tune, if someone shouts out the key. Sometimes the title of the tune will escape me but I'll recognise it and be able to "get into the tune" much quicker if I know the key.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Um, the only thing I wish I knew all about it for is to yell out the keys and chords to any random daft accompanist without a clue what they should be playing.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
When I teach a tune, I like to tell people the key, mode, and pitch of the first note. As a fiddler or any other melody player, if you know the key/mode beforehand, then you know what notes are most likely to show up in the meldoy. For instance, if I say that Beare Island Reel starts out in E major and then slips into E Dorian, then the people learning the tune (at least those who know their keys/modes) won't be surprised at those G sharps in the beginning, going to G naturals for the rest of the tune. And they'll guess that most of the C's are sharps, not naturals. And they'd be right.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I am accustomed to the Old Time Fiddlers Association here due to my late father's involvement. I do remember asking the old timers about such tricks. A handkerchief under the chin for example. I thought is was for padding, but it was for the really old timers and drool. I saw someone trying to use hand signals once. He had briefed everyone before going on stage. During the tune, everyone else kind of gave him an Alzhiemers type stare when he did his hand signals. The bass fiddle guy got offended and gave him a middle finger in response. Then they had a brawl fencing match with their canes. Never did figure out the code.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Do not tell me Wotkey that you are prepared to take such abuse from JfiddlerH? I hope you notice that for all his criticism of me, he has NEVER denied my ability on the bodhran. I know that this is due mainly to fear but perhaps you should be more aggressive.
All I know is that "the finger" is very popular in our group, and sometimes even two.
If the "super" musicians had an ounce of decency, common sense and less ego, it would be easier just to tell everyone the keys before you start. But they love to see people grovel.
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
JohnJ: Drat! I wish I had one of the fun electronic devices where you can record any sound, and it will translate the sound to any note played on the keyboard. That's how they did "Jingle Bells" with dog barks. I'd love to do a bodhran tune and send it to you. Maybe "Danny Boy"?
Bliss: for a special middle finger hand signal, I use my bones, in case they don't get the original meaning. I can do one, one in each hand, two in each hand, and three in each hand for special occasions. If we all had an ounce of decency, common sense and less egos, these chats would get boring. (^:
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I was later directed to the guy that was the oldest- old timer, and it was said that he knew the DeVinkee Code handed down by ................ hisself. As I approached his lordship, I noticed he was wearing a peculiar baseball hat. The inscription said, "Old F*rt." I stared at his lordship's hat, and then he stares at me. Then he sez "youse want me to demon-strate for ya!! Then I sez "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"
So- sorry, but I don't know the DeVinkee code for hand siginals at jam sessions. (^: :^(
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
We use proper musical terminology, but whenever I try "three flats" on a guitar player or other capo-merchant, they think I am an estate agent or something.
The apocryphal tale was -
Accordionist: "F"
Guitarist: "Eh?"
band launches off in two different keys.
Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Good lass is Alice - met her in the Catskills last year, both of us equally surprised to see each other there.
Big Mick's rationale for the David, George, etc., thing is that during a session you can't distinguish between D or G for example, they just sound the same. Never come across tic-tac hand signals though.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Yeah, i've seen that. but it works best for box players to do it with their right hand. And I've seen pipers do it with their right hand while just rolling a top A or B.
The Edinburgh code is straight forward but unfortunatly requires a loty of asterixes for this touchy feely scared to offend anyone site:
G = gonad
D = dick (as in short for richard)
A = ar**
F = f***
C = c***
and the odd one out, E = Eric (nobody knows why)
We don't really care about the major/minor thing so that it discourages strummers from piling in with strident thirds
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by ...
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I think I mentioned this once before but the late Iain Grant, a moothie player who used to run the Sunday afternoon session in Sandy Bells(he knew hundreds of great Scottish tunes), used to give hand signals too, e.g.
G = 1 finger (1 sharp)
D = 2 fingers(2 sharps)
A + 3 fingers(3 sharps)
C was a level wave of the hand
For flat keys, he also used one finger for each flat but pointed downwards.
His predecessor, George, also uses the same system.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I've never heard of the hand signals thing but i would say
BRING IT BACK!!!!. How many of us have been at a session, only to have the momentum taken out of tunes by a guitarist going into the wrong key, this happens to me alot partly because i do not possess the magical ability to speak when i'm playing, so i kinda rely on their own judgement with a few funny looks if they've guessed wrong. It would be easy to impliment, every one here agree a meaning for each of the symbols,(Jeremy could have the final word??) and then pass it through all our session networks. Put it in instrument tutor books right in the sections where they teach you what a treble clef is. Then pester the media to do a news story on it coming up to the Fleadh.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by jfiddlerh
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Wotkey didn't get his name for nothing you know!
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by jfiddlerh
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Oops. I meant to say *successor*. Sorry.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I've just realised the system won't work and you've all guessed who's responsible! Bodhran Bliss, He really doesn't know a musical key from his back door key, he works on a fool proof system of spacing his fingers on a mandolin in differant shapes for differant tunes, he has gained some awareness of keys since i started playing with him but you couldn't stretch it to the term knowledge, so alas the whole plan will have to be shelved as it is incompatible with the infallable Bliss! Or we could just soldier on and ostrich-size Bliss from our musical fraternity? It's your call Michael Gill
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by jfiddlerh
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
who is this Bliss, then? Not me or Sir Arthur...
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by tombliss
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
That's easy, just alternate between F an C
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by ...
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
It's ok Tom. It's another Bliss. You'll soon get to know him, if you visit here often enough.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
We get around the problem by insisting that the guitar/zouk/mandola players aren't allowed in until they know all the keys
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by breandan
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
That's where the humble bodhran comes into its own. It can play all the tunes in any key.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
or none?
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by breandan
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I've seen the fingers up, fingers down and a flat wave of the hand, but never a open palm or fist, what did those mean, tuner&brian? Let's see -- one of those have to be for C?
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Putting your fingers in a different place was taught to me by Charlie Maguire. Anyone wishing to criticise this musical family should be aware that it carries a government health risk.
And as John J points out, I can play the bodhran in any key, especially M and G.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Ok i may be sounding like a really daft fiddler here and completely going off the discussion but for fiddlers whats the point of knowing the key if you dont know the tune? Its ok for the guitarists, accordianists etc... But apart from playing the random notes of the main chords (because i cant pick the tunes up fast enough at session speed) what can a fiddler (or whistler or anyone else) do? Any help?
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by nicola1
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Maybe, they expect you to "noodle".
However, I find it a help even when I know the tune, if someone shouts out the key. Sometimes the title of the tune will escape me but I'll recognise it and be able to "get into the tune" much quicker if I know the key.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Um, the only thing I wish I knew all about it for is to yell out the keys and chords to any random daft accompanist without a clue what they should be playing.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
My handle speaks volumes for my views on this subject!
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Wotkey
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
When I teach a tune, I like to tell people the key, mode, and pitch of the first note. As a fiddler or any other melody player, if you know the key/mode beforehand, then you know what notes are most likely to show up in the meldoy. For instance, if I say that Beare Island Reel starts out in E major and then slips into E Dorian, then the people learning the tune (at least those who know their keys/modes) won't be surprised at those G sharps in the beginning, going to G naturals for the rest of the tune. And they'll guess that most of the C's are sharps, not naturals. And they'd be right.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I am accustomed to the Old Time Fiddlers Association here due to my late father's involvement. I do remember asking the old timers about such tricks. A handkerchief under the chin for example. I thought is was for padding, but it was for the really old timers and drool. I saw someone trying to use hand signals once. He had briefed everyone before going on stage. During the tune, everyone else kind of gave him an Alzhiemers type stare when he did his hand signals. The bass fiddle guy got offended and gave him a middle finger in response. Then they had a brawl fencing match with their canes. Never did figure out the code.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
Do not tell me Wotkey that you are prepared to take such abuse from JfiddlerH? I hope you notice that for all his criticism of me, he has NEVER denied my ability on the bodhran. I know that this is due mainly to fear but perhaps you should be more aggressive.
All I know is that "the finger" is very popular in our group, and sometimes even two.
If the "super" musicians had an ounce of decency, common sense and less ego, it would be easier just to tell everyone the keys before you start. But they love to see people grovel.
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
JohnJ: Drat! I wish I had one of the fun electronic devices where you can record any sound, and it will translate the sound to any note played on the keyboard. That's how they did "Jingle Bells" with dog barks. I'd love to do a bodhran tune and send it to you. Maybe "Danny Boy"?
Bliss: for a special middle finger hand signal, I use my bones, in case they don't get the original meaning. I can do one, one in each hand, two in each hand, and three in each hand for special occasions. If we all had an ounce of decency, common sense and less egos, these chats would get boring. (^:
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
LOL @ Ceol's oldtimers!
# Posted on April 15th 2005 by grego
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
I was later directed to the guy that was the oldest- old timer, and it was said that he knew the DeVinkee Code handed down by ................ hisself. As I approached his lordship, I noticed he was wearing a peculiar baseball hat. The inscription said, "Old F*rt." I stared at his lordship's hat, and then he stares at me. Then he sez "youse want me to demon-strate for ya!! Then I sez "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"
So- sorry, but I don't know the DeVinkee code for hand siginals at jam sessions. (^: :^(
# Posted on April 16th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Question for the seniors, an old player used hand signals for key changes
We use proper musical terminology, but whenever I try "three flats" on a guitar player or other capo-merchant, they think I am an estate agent or something.
The apocryphal tale was -
Accordionist: "F"
Guitarist: "Eh?"
band launches off in two different keys.
# Posted on April 18th 2005 by geoffwright