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mandolin chords = banjo chords?

mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Our (the band's) banjo player got himself a mandolin (32€ from ebay). Being a fiddle player I could tell him how to tune it and found him a chord chart thanks to the "mandolin chord" thread. Now he says he'd rather use his banjo chords. I presume that the tone distance between open strings on the mandolin is the same as on the tenor banjo. Surely some of you play both instruments. What chords do you use?

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by kuec

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

You can use more varied chords on the mando because of the smaller scale.
For example, fully closed chords are much easier.
But "banjo chords" - i.e open chords, assuming it's a GDAE tenor, will allow more open strings and drones and jangles.
Perhaps that's what he meant.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by Bren

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

If he tunes his tenor banjo GDAE (one octave below a mandolin), any chord playable on the banjo will be possible on mandolin. The reverse is not necessarily true, because of the longer scale on the banjo.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by tedium

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

He strums his tenor banjo?? struth.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by ...

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

I don't really like that either. However, there's nothing wrong with introducing chords or part chords within the melody for a fuller sound, eg as in drones etc. It has to be appropriate and tasteful though.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by Johnny Jay

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Who said he strummed it?
I'm sure I'm not alone in playing melodies out of chord positions on both instruments, so that I can introduce chords or part chords within melodies for a fuller sound when I hit the wrong str ... - er, I mean "when it's appropriate and tasteful".

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by Bren

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

If you're a guitarist switching to mandolin you just need to look in a mirror for your chords:
GDAE mando
EADG guitar (lowest 4 strings)
Someone pointed this blindingly obvious and very useful fact out to me years ago. From banjo (assuming tuned in 5ths) to mandolin is no problem.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by RichardB

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

OK, here is a little controversy: Early Irish banjoists used chords, especially in dance bands. And now there is at least one band (Brock-McGuire) whose banjo player has played chords on stage and on CDs. There is no reason not to play chords on the tenor banjo, it's just not done very often because there are usually too many chord instruments in a session as it is. But it can be done and it can add to the music.

That being said, your banjo player has no idea what he is talking about. A mandolin is not a small banjo, no matter how it is tuned. Mandolins have more sustain, many more chord possibilities because of the scale (13" vs. 20"-23"), and an entirely different voice. Mandolins sound very good with power chords (a chord without a third) such as the 2004 (from GDAE) for a D chord, 2204 for an A chord, 0042 for a G chord, all of which give nice drones and can be used in both major and minor situations. While this is possible on the banjo, the double courses of a mandolin make the tonality and dynamics of the instrument sound different and more pleasing to my ear, at least. It is a new instrument to him and he will have to learn new techniques.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/apr05/irishtenor.html

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by mikeyes

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Mike, I'll accept that there are folks who might enjoy banjo chords as part of a performance or session, but I'll pass. I'm not convinced by the early practices of dance bands either - many of those bands used full drum kits as well - ugggh. Banjo chords add a lot of colour to trad jazz, though.

And I mostly cringe at mandolin chords too, unless they're in a bluegrass or similar setting.

I guess I'm just a grouch!

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by grego

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

MIke - I think all your '4's should read '5'. For the G chord, I presume you meant '0053'. I wish I could type as fast as you.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

€32 .......could'nt be a mandolin, must be a tabletenis bat.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by Backer

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

quiri,

You are correct, the 4s should be 5s and the G is 0053. I need a mandolin in my hands when I think of these chords - I just do them and not think about them nowadays.

As for using chords, they work best in a small group or on stage where you are trying to achieve a certain effect. In a session group they generally just add to the muddy chordal mess. My example of the Brock-McGuire band is a good one for small groups and it works very well, so well that a lot of listeners don't even know it is happening (unless they are banjo players stunned by Enda Scahill the way I am.)

I don't think you will be seeing very many banjo players using chords a lot, but at a recent class with john Carty he used a lot of two and three string chords in passing as part of his variations. It works very well and these are not the typical jazz tenor banjo chords you would see in a Dixieland band.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/apr05/irishtenor.html

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by mikeyes

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

I was confused for years, and avoided tenor banjos like the plague, convinced they were tuned CGDA, which threw me completely, having played a mandolin briefly.
Then I transferred to the bouzouki, GDAE so I can keep everything I knew on the mandolin.
Now my favourite chord is D - eleven -O - O - ten . Try it someone. It's a good D chord, the bottom note is a D but its not on the bottom string. Drop those fingers back two frets and you can start singing Joni Mitchell "Woke up, it was a Chelsea morning....." Then you have a great E ( minor ) 9977. You can use that very percussively, slackening off the fingers to accent the rhythmn. And my favourite G is 0553, no B so its a power chord, major/minor non-specific.
And when you're tired of chords, you can always play the tunes.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by Guernsey Pete

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

We need stricter controls on banjo chords during this time of crisis. Under the Tories it will be introduced.

That was a party political broadcast on behalf of the Purist Party.

# Posted on April 12th 2005 by bodhran bliss

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Mike Keyes: "...at a recent class with john Carty he used a lot of two and three string chords in passing as part of his variations..."

Eamonn Coyne is another one who does this. Sometimes, when he is playing in duo with another player, his playing almost verges on backing. On his album, Through the Round Window (of which I picked up a promotional copy for £2 in a charity shop), he manages to combine very tastefully elements of jazz and music hall with traditional music, whilst, to my ear, not in any way compromising its traditional-ness. And I do have a purist streak.

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Then there's Mick O'Connor's great banjo accompaniment on Paddy Carty's album "Traditional Irish Music." Lovely stuff, that shows the banjo can be appropriate for backup of straight traditional music, without any hints of jazz or bluegrass.

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by tedium

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Most helpful and interesting reply, Mike. But how are "power chords" defined? I have obviously misunderstood the term believing that it consisted of duplication of the same note on two different (adjacent) strings played loud and long with the effect of imprinting the sound in the listener's ear. The redoubtable Gerry seems to me to be playing power(ful) chords as he and Vinnie Kilduff move from 'Tom Ward's Downfall' to 'Shearing the Sheep' in the Myriad Album....are these power or powerful chords? Is there any difference?

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by r&c

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

I guess my preference is to avoid "strumming" on banjos and mandolins in sessions, not chords as such. I do like the emphasis John Carty gives to certain notes by using the (very) occasional chord on The Cat.

I associate the sound of a strummed banjo so much with Dixieland - music that has a completely different emotional feel for me than does ITM. So maybe it's just a prejudice, but not one I'm going to be able to shake very easily.

My only exposure to mandolin strumming in sessions is where people apply a boom-chucka rhythm that again seems totally at odds with the emotion I associate with Irish music. It almost feels like the mandolinist has decided "this stuff is dead boring, I'm going to liven it up with some *REAL* rhythm."

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by grego

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Yeah!

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by Bren

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

LOL -- Greg, you can't know why, but you've just become my hero of the day! Heh.

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Baggins - What understand by a 'power chord' is a chord which contains only the root note and the 5th (not necessarily in that order, and with any number of duplications), for example D and A, C and G, B-flat and F, etc..

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

...I think the term was originally coined by rock guitarists, these 'chords' being a staple of rock rhythm guitar.

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

And all this time I thought a power chord was something you plugged into the wall.

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by Zina Lee

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

grego,

If you look at the examples mentioned above (there will be a written test later) ITM banjo players are not strumming, per se, but adding emphasis both in a rhythmic and percussive sense to the existing music. Much of the time the passing chords are unnoticed unless you are looking for them (or trying to figure out what they are doing) and are not overwhelming the music the way you have perceived certain mandolin players in your sessions.

I'm willing to bet that those mandolin players are not the best musicians in the group as they seem to be mistaking a mandolin for a(n) Ukulele. If you look at the very best mandolinists in any genera they abhore that kind of bludgeoning of the music. The same is true of the upper level ITM banjo players, they are expanding the music within the tradition for the most part (I will ignore GO'C for now, at least his early albums, but you would be surprised if you watch him play in a semi-private setting, he can be very "pure drop" and teachs banjo to the tradition.) Banjo playing is quite new as a method in ITM and there is a lot to learn and to discover about the instrument. I agree that incessant strumming of the banjo will have the same effect as incessant beating of a bodhran or almost any beating of spoons in a session, it is not needed. But tasteful and at times exploratory chording may add a lot to the music.

As for power chords (the root and the fifth), they sound particularily good on instruments tuned in fifths and sometimes are the only chords available. Like anything they have to be used with caution but are very common in ITM along with passing chords which incorporate notes from two different chords and even odd augmented chords meant to add an emotional tone. They are very easy to do on a fifths tuned instrument and sound very good on an instrument with double courses.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/apr05/irishtenor.html

# Posted on April 13th 2005 by mikeyes

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

If you look as any of several works on mandolin chords, you will see the term "power chords" used when describing the Root+Fifth chords (Niles Hokkanen's book on mandolin chords is the best source for this) and although the term originally referred to chords played by rock guitarists, the concept is quite valid. I can't think of a better name nor one that would be remembered as well hence the use of the well established term "power chords."

As far as I can tell there is no foolery going on here <G>

Mike Keyes

# Posted on April 14th 2005 by mikeyes

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

Power chords?
You really got me all day and all of the night from morning til the end of the day.

Wasn't it the Welshman Dai Davies that invented these?

# Posted on April 14th 2005 by Bren

Re: mandolin chords = banjo chords?

turner & brian - what de hell tunin' you playin' in ?
a 0205 - dats an a7, try just 2200, or 6775 ) 6 is wid da tumb, ye'see ).
Why am I going into the dialect, well I'm embarrassed at having to do a teach-in, sure you can always do these funny not-quite-the real-chord like the guitar guys in DADGAD with the rolling capos, but there is a ( whoops, here I go ) correct chord before you start going all mystical quaint celtic on us. And also mandos are so short that some'zouk chords don't work either, I know.
Anyway, in for a penny, and mostly folks won't look this far back and spot this, but........
bm - oo22 it aint, try 4422, this is a power chord, not actually maj or minor.
f 0301 is f9, try 2331 (2 with the thumb) or 5335.
dm 0001 - is that a dm4? try 2001
am0200 is am7, 2200 is a neither maj or min, 223 is actaul am with a bottom a, cant always get this with a 4-string (or 4-course ).
e 0224 - never in a month of Sundays ! try 1220, or 1224
bflat 3311
gm 0013.
Oh, I feel better for that, maybe I should go back to teaching......

# Posted on April 15th 2005 by Guernsey Pete

Mandolin chords = banjo chords, Take II

As a bouzouki player I use my instrument both chordally and melodically in sessions -ie if I don't know the tune,or haven't a rats arse of keeping up with the fiddlers on my longer scale instrument, I can make like the old geetar, where I first learned how to accompany a tune.
On the first take of this discussion there were some, pardon my french, damn funny chords listed. So here's my take on this - obviously some of these will sit better on a longer scale instrument, and I'm only working in GDae tuning, an octave down from mandoline myself. Anything with an asterix is neither major nor minor, having only tonic and dominant notes in it, and can be used as either chord.

D 2002, or 7755*, or, my favourite, eleven00ten - this has a bass D, but of course its not the first string you hit in the chord.
Dm 2001
D7 2032
E 1220, or 4224, or 9977*
E7 1020
Em 0220, or 9977*
F 2331 (do the 2 with the thumb ), or 5335
G 0023, or 0553*, or 4553 with thumb, or 0053, or 0057, or 00tenten
G7 0021
Gm 0013
A 2200*, or 6775
A7 2203
Am 2230
Bflat 3311*, or 7886
C 0230, or 0530, or 5530, or 5533*

There you are, I've saved you the price of a bouzouki tutor now.

I also try not to duplicate the range of the instruments around me - if there are too many guitars and mandolins about it can be useful to capo up to 5 or 7 frets and have an intermediate range of notes - my local acoustic open session usually ends with "The Last Time" in G - I capo up 7 frets and play C-shapes to intersperse between the mandolin and guitar chords. Capo-ed up 5 frets and I'm playing a mandola, saving the expense of another instrument in the house with a £3.00 elastic capo.

# Posted on April 16th 2005 by Guernsey Pete

Re: Mandolin chords = banjo chords, Take II

To add to the above list:

D 2405, 7405, 7455, 779ten, 7795, 7055*, 7005*
Dm 2305, 778ten, 7785
D7 2035, 5002, 5005, 7408, 7ten9ten, 709ten
E 4620, 4670, 9670, 99eleven0, 9970*
E7 4650, 9650
F 5301, 990thirteen
F7 2101
F#m 6402
F#7 6890
G 0557, 0523, 4053
Gm 0556, 4052
G7 0323, 0357, 0587, 098ten,0353*
A 2240, 2245, 6200, 6700, 6770, 9740, 9eleven00
Am 2235, 5200, 5700, 5770, 9ten00
A7 2243, 6500, 97ten9, 9eleven-ten0
Bflat 3011, 9086
Bflat7 1011
B 4462
Bm 4022, 4452
B7 4102, 4402*

Of course, all of the closed shapes (those without '0's in them) are fully moveable, which widens the possibilities considerably - not to mention all the possible 3-string chords.
I play mandolin - some of these chords may require a degree of unnatural contortion for an average-sized person to play them on octave mandolin, bouzouki or tenor banjo.

# Posted on April 16th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig

Re: Mandolin chords = banjo chords, Take II

Thanks for your reply, t & b.
Anymore to add, anyone ? I always try to think of my great guitar hero, Richard Thompson, who often stays on the same neck position, give or take, for prolonged solos. It's handy to have the chord vocabulary to be able to do the same on the'zouk/mandola/lin/banjo.

# Posted on April 16th 2005 by Guernsey Pete

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