Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Hello All,
This is gratuitously mandolin-oriented, but has some appeal, theoretically, to players of other instruments....
So I've been playing for a couple years now. I'm getting quick (compared to where I was, anyway) and I'm getting loud enough to play with groups. I'm finally picking up tunes by ear (though still slowly) and that's nice too. All in all, I'm having a fabulous time.
Now I want to begin to push myself and have begun to play around with some ornamentation, mostly just with jigs. Now to date, I've taken the plain jane vanilla approach to tune learning: Play the simple version cleanly up to speed first. I get out the Comhaltas CD and slow it down some, learn it, and then speed it up. Works pretty well -- really well for session playing.
But now I'm starting to ornament just a touch. I've begun taking jigs I know and throwing in an extra note into a triplet here and there. It's pretty stilted at the moment (is that normal?). It's also a bit of a task not to go crazy with it, to do it subtley. I assume this is just lack of experience, though, so I'm not particularly concerned on that front.
So here's my question(s)/opinion request(s) for those mando players (and maybe melody-playing CBOM players) that are a little ahead of where I am:
1. In your experience, is learning first the simple version and then adding ornamentation easier or harder than attempting to learn an ornamented version slowly and then speeding it up?
2. Is there anything to be done about the feeling of deconstruction of a tune once you get it nicely up to speed as you put ornamentation back in?
And then, just comment on how you began to ease ornamentation into your playing just in general.
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Two opposing views here. Some people suggest learning the "bones" of a tune first and adding the ornaments later. Others would argue that ornaments are part of the tune and should be learned at the same time. While I appreciate the latter view, I still think ornaments are very much a matter of taste and, in any event, they will vary from style to style, area to area, player to player, session to session.
My ornamentation on mandolin is much better these days but I find many of the subtleties are lost in a fast a furious session. If you're playing solo or leading a tune, that's different, of course.
However, once you're used to playing ornaments, you will start to include them automatically.
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Hello KeytonW and JohnJ -
I’m new to < thesessions.org > and therefore may be a bit premature but it is nice to hear from other mandolin players, particularly in the ‘celtic traditions’. I play several different
types of instruments (and have several different mandolin makes), I find that the mandolin works well in almost everything from ‘regular sessions’ to ‘kitchen sets’ to small ‘local gigs’.
Concerning the above posted discussion, I tend to side towards the comments of JohnJ. Two different approaches to tunes - I think it’s all right to learn a new tune/
ornamentation as many tunes have signature ornaments (flavorings) and its good to try and capture elements of this. Many tunes have ornamentation which is favored (ie
easier to play) towards the fiddle or flute than on four double sets of strings. So one has to find other ways to spice the tune as it were. Therefore, why not learn the tune ‘bare bones’.
The ‘flavoring’ will often come as one gets familiar with the tune and that comes with lots of playing. The interesting part in the latter approach is that the individual performers voice
will be expressed and the tune (tuneset) will eventually become their ‘signature’. Of course as I’m sure you’re aware, in a sizzling hot sessions, when the tunes are being played at ‘warp factor 9’, often the real fancy figures are often set aside or modified to fit. It is nice though, to get a nod or a wink from a more experienced ol' timer when they hear one of your flavorings that works particularly well.
The point is to have fun playing. The tune flavorings will work themselves out in time.
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
As PrairieDawg says, ornamentation on mandolin is not necessarily used in the same way as it is used on fiddle or flute. To learn all tunes with ornamentation inclused implies learning tunes exclusively from other mandolin players or players of similar instruments. This is something I have never had much time for - partly because there are so few accomplished mandolin players (at least, ones that play in public) around to learn from, but principally because the mandolin is a relative newcomer to the tradition and I would rather learn from instruments with well established traditional styles associated with them.
My approach to learning tunes is to listen to them played on whatever instruments they are played on - fiddle, pipes, flute, concertina, accordion... - and, using the ornamentational 'vocabulary' I have accumulated over the years, try to emulate the *feel* of those instruments. I do not mean to imply by this that the mandolin is somehow an inferior instrument, but I feel it has yet to establish its residency in the Traditional Music toolbox, and this is part of the process of naturalisation. It is better for the status of the instrument and for the music played on it to allow players to develop their own styles and techniques of ornamentation, rather than learning an 'approved' standard. As I write, the multitude of individual styles is gelling into something that will be, and already is, recognised as traditional.
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
What I do seems to vary tune-to-tune. If I'm comfortable putting ornamentations in when the tune is still new to me, I do so. When it interferes with me learning the tune and playing it smoothly, I leave it out until I'm ready.
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Slightly off topic, but you might want to check this out. It's a Roger Landes article on ornamentation for Celtic mandolin. This should be required reading.
Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Hello All,
This is gratuitously mandolin-oriented, but has some appeal, theoretically, to players of other instruments....
So I've been playing for a couple years now. I'm getting quick (compared to where I was, anyway) and I'm getting loud enough to play with groups. I'm finally picking up tunes by ear (though still slowly) and that's nice too. All in all, I'm having a fabulous time.
Now I want to begin to push myself and have begun to play around with some ornamentation, mostly just with jigs. Now to date, I've taken the plain jane vanilla approach to tune learning: Play the simple version cleanly up to speed first. I get out the Comhaltas CD and slow it down some, learn it, and then speed it up. Works pretty well -- really well for session playing.
But now I'm starting to ornament just a touch. I've begun taking jigs I know and throwing in an extra note into a triplet here and there. It's pretty stilted at the moment (is that normal?). It's also a bit of a task not to go crazy with it, to do it subtley. I assume this is just lack of experience, though, so I'm not particularly concerned on that front.
So here's my question(s)/opinion request(s) for those mando players (and maybe melody-playing CBOM players) that are a little ahead of where I am:
1. In your experience, is learning first the simple version and then adding ornamentation easier or harder than attempting to learn an ornamented version slowly and then speeding it up?
2. Is there anything to be done about the feeling of deconstruction of a tune once you get it nicely up to speed as you put ornamentation back in?
And then, just comment on how you began to ease ornamentation into your playing just in general.
Thank you.
Best,
Keyton
# Posted on April 3rd 2005 by keytonw
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Two opposing views here. Some people suggest learning the "bones" of a tune first and adding the ornaments later. Others would argue that ornaments are part of the tune and should be learned at the same time. While I appreciate the latter view, I still think ornaments are very much a matter of taste and, in any event, they will vary from style to style, area to area, player to player, session to session.
My ornamentation on mandolin is much better these days but I find many of the subtleties are lost in a fast a furious session. If you're playing solo or leading a tune, that's different, of course.
However, once you're used to playing ornaments, you will start to include them automatically.
# Posted on April 3rd 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Hello KeytonW and JohnJ -
I’m new to < thesessions.org > and therefore may be a bit premature but it is nice to hear from other mandolin players, particularly in the ‘celtic traditions’. I play several different
types of instruments (and have several different mandolin makes), I find that the mandolin works well in almost everything from ‘regular sessions’ to ‘kitchen sets’ to small ‘local gigs’.
Concerning the above posted discussion, I tend to side towards the comments of JohnJ. Two different approaches to tunes - I think it’s all right to learn a new tune/
ornamentation as many tunes have signature ornaments (flavorings) and its good to try and capture elements of this. Many tunes have ornamentation which is favored (ie
easier to play) towards the fiddle or flute than on four double sets of strings. So one has to find other ways to spice the tune as it were. Therefore, why not learn the tune ‘bare bones’.
The ‘flavoring’ will often come as one gets familiar with the tune and that comes with lots of playing. The interesting part in the latter approach is that the individual performers voice
will be expressed and the tune (tuneset) will eventually become their ‘signature’. Of course as I’m sure you’re aware, in a sizzling hot sessions, when the tunes are being played at ‘warp factor 9’, often the real fancy figures are often set aside or modified to fit. It is nice though, to get a nod or a wink from a more experienced ol' timer when they hear one of your flavorings that works particularly well.
The point is to have fun playing. The tune flavorings will work themselves out in time.
Regards from Montreal, Canada
PrairieDawg
# Posted on April 3rd 2005 by PrairieDawg
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
As PrairieDawg says, ornamentation on mandolin is not necessarily used in the same way as it is used on fiddle or flute. To learn all tunes with ornamentation inclused implies learning tunes exclusively from other mandolin players or players of similar instruments. This is something I have never had much time for - partly because there are so few accomplished mandolin players (at least, ones that play in public) around to learn from, but principally because the mandolin is a relative newcomer to the tradition and I would rather learn from instruments with well established traditional styles associated with them.
My approach to learning tunes is to listen to them played on whatever instruments they are played on - fiddle, pipes, flute, concertina, accordion... - and, using the ornamentational 'vocabulary' I have accumulated over the years, try to emulate the *feel* of those instruments. I do not mean to imply by this that the mandolin is somehow an inferior instrument, but I feel it has yet to establish its residency in the Traditional Music toolbox, and this is part of the process of naturalisation. It is better for the status of the instrument and for the music played on it to allow players to develop their own styles and techniques of ornamentation, rather than learning an 'approved' standard. As I write, the multitude of individual styles is gelling into something that will be, and already is, recognised as traditional.
# Posted on April 4th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
What I do seems to vary tune-to-tune. If I'm comfortable putting ornamentations in when the tune is still new to me, I do so. When it interferes with me learning the tune and playing it smoothly, I leave it out until I'm ready.
# Posted on April 4th 2005 by mandolinann
Re: Mandolin Ornamentation: Relearn or Learn Up Front?
Slightly off topic, but you might want to check this out. It's a Roger Landes article on ornamentation for Celtic mandolin. This should be required reading.
http://www.mandolinsessions.com/feb05/celtic.html
# Posted on April 5th 2005 by Craymcla