My limited grasp of the matter is: with the steady stream of air on the reed, piper's have no way other than cuts (and so on to rolls) to articulate long notes or separate two notes of the same pitch. Eureka--this adds lift and rhythmic interest. Fiddlers and fluters and the rest of the menagerie likely adapted cuts and rolls for the same purpose, and to emulate the pipes.
I think it came from the Turn and was probably a Fiddler's doing as they probably were classicaly trained on doing turns then one day pulled one in an Irish tune then started to adapt it then Pipers took it up instead of some other embelleshment then Fluters not to be out done adapted it into their playing style and at this time those were probably the only people doing ITM. Or it could have been a Piper trying to emulate a Turn and because of the way Pipers are it could have turned into the rythmic variant f the Turn that it is now. Or it could have come from the GHBs on the UPs from similar but not exactly like the roll but sound like a roll maybe U Pipers were trying to emulate GH Pipers. Or since it is so natural a movement on Flute (there is not a more natural movement on FLute than the G roll) some Fluter could have started doing it and it just caught on. These are all theories I do not have a real answer but one of them could be right you never know (unless of course you know) and if some body out there has the real answer PLEASE enlighten us.
It makes more sense to me that it came first from bagpipers, since they don't have another mean of articulation than the fingers, as Will Harmon said, and then it was adapted to the flute, and maybe the fiddle.
But I can't see it coming from classically trained violinists.
Then again, maybe the roll on wind instruments and the roll on string struments came from a different source. Who knows.
What I said on another, unrelated thread also applies here: "Where you start matters far less than the road you eventually choose and where it takes you."
With all the cross pollination that has occurred between "folk" and "classical" music over the centuries, it's really impossible to sort out details like this.
McGregor in Classical music there is a thing called a turn which is a roll but with different accents on different beats it is the same movement just slightly different.
...and 'The Lark' (the gypsy one) is full of them, played slightly differently yet again...so it could be of Hungarian / Roumanian / gypsy origin too.....and that kind of music abounds with them on other instruments too, eg block flute, clarinet etc.
Avery, it's perhaps more likely that classical turns and mordents were derived from the articulations used by folk musicians. Just plain folks were playing dance music well before the powdered wig crowd got ahold of it.
It is entirely possible that the classical turn and the Irish roll developed independently, and just happened to be similar. It's a simple enough idea, and people's brains work in more or less the same way. (The chances are, the wheel was invented in more than one place, by more than one person, at roughly the same period in human existence.) However the music that evolved, in the collective consciousness of the higher strata of European society, into what we know as classical music, must have come from somewhere. Like Will says, it is highly probable that classical musicians drew much of there ornamentation from filk music - after all, Western Art Music composers from C16 onwards made no secret of borrowing folk dance forms for their music. In reality, it was probably a little more complex than one musical genre simply taking from another - wherever they have coexisted, there is bound to have been mutual influence.
My theory is, the roll came from the oven and the cut came from the breadknife.
That could also be true Will. I doubt that it came from Pipers because UPs came from Pastoral Pipes which had similar fingerings to GHBs and probably used similar fingerings and embellshments and was probably adapted to the Pipes but a cran on the other hand definatley came from Pipes because to me it is so obviously a modified taroluath with an added lifting of the middle finger instead of going down to the lowest note it starts from the lowest note.
Now to bring up an even moreinteresting question: Why do all these types of music have similar ornaments?
That probably means that way back in the day somebody started doing it and it spread and noe all these different cultures have there own rendition of it. Maybe it dates back to some of the first bagpipes or maybe it started on an early Fiddle. I doubt it started on Fiddle as it seems such an unnatural motion and hard to execute it is the most natural on fiddle.
Hi Unseen122, I know what a "classical" turn is, and I'm very familiar with this type of ornamentation. Still I don't think that the irish roll is the same thing as the classical turn, at least not in wind instruments where the purpose of the roll is to divide a long note in three short ones (to say it in a simple way).
That is an interesting point but a roll is not always used that way even though I paly many isntruments Flute is really my thing (and UPs provided I ever have enough to buy a set I know I will love it though) some times it is used for that but not always. On Fiddle or Violin the Turn and Roll are the same thing with different rythmic variation. Who will ever know the right answer.
"...the purpose of the roll is to divide a long note in three short ones..."
McGregor - True, the turn and the roll are not the same thing, but isn't it possible that one could have evolved into the other? Some say that the bodhrán was originally a winnowing tray. Some would also say that it should have been kept only for its original purpose, but the fact is, it was not.
Bagpipes of various kinds exist or have existed at some time in every part of Europe and some parts of Asia (Africa as well?). Whether they are an invention which has spread or they originated in more than one place is probably inconclusive, but one thing that most varieties (notable exceptions being the Uillean and Northumbrian pipes) have in common is that they are capable only of producing a continuous sound. Given the unavailability of silence as a means of splitting up or articulating notes, a little experimentation in a reasonably dexterous pair of hands would soon lead to the discovery of the principle interspersing notes with other, short notes - cuts and taps. It is then only a matter of time (perhaps decades, perhaps centuries) before these are juxtaposed in various combinations and permutations to create the crans, rolls, double-cut rolls and cheese salad rolls that we know today.
It is probable, however, that Uillean piping has drawn on Highland piping, and other piping traditions, since, I believe, these were in existence in the British Isles long before the Uillean pipes came to Ireland.
Unseen, I see your point of comparing with the turn anyway. There might be a relation.
The truth I doubt we'll ever know, but the subject remains interesting.
Thanks to all for posting.
No one has yet mentioned the considerable influence of the Sean Nos singer using the "Sacred Harp" (voice). All my musical life I have always been strongly persuaded by the human voices and their ability to express and emote. And I have tried to remember how the roots would or could have been for a particular tune. But maybe this is inappropriate for the modern high speed thought. MTCs
Good point, Whis. I've often wondered (well, not all that often, but a few times anyway) which is primary in Indian classical music - voice or sitar (or other instrument). They use the same ornamentation and inflection. I've listened to a lot of Indian music and the feeling I get is that the instruments imitate the voice. I can't explain why, it just feels that way.
I think that all the best instrumentaon imitates the voice in some manner. It may have something to do with how instruments that have a more analogue feel to them, like sitars and fiddles (both big in indian music) can sound more intimate
To re-inforce what Avery (unseen122) says: The Bodhran is said to have originated as a winnowing tray (Some would say it should have stayed that way). At some point, someone on their lunch break decided to tap out a rhythm on it. Over time it was adapted to the purpose of being played as a drum.
The same thing could happen to a cluster of notes.
Of course, there's also the theory that the "tambourine" referred to in several texts from about the 1700s on is actually the bodhran, since the tambourine was zill-less.
Difficult question:
Difficult question:
Does anyone know anything about the origin of the roll?
(And no, I'm not talking about bread, cars, oriental food, fags, etc...)
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Difficult question:
My limited grasp of the matter is: with the steady stream of air on the reed, piper's have no way other than cuts (and so on to rolls) to articulate long notes or separate two notes of the same pitch. Eureka--this adds lift and rhythmic interest. Fiddlers and fluters and the rest of the menagerie likely adapted cuts and rolls for the same purpose, and to emulate the pipes.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Difficult question:
I think it came from the Turn and was probably a Fiddler's doing as they probably were classicaly trained on doing turns then one day pulled one in an Irish tune then started to adapt it then Pipers took it up instead of some other embelleshment then Fluters not to be out done adapted it into their playing style and at this time those were probably the only people doing ITM. Or it could have been a Piper trying to emulate a Turn and because of the way Pipers are it could have turned into the rythmic variant f the Turn that it is now. Or it could have come from the GHBs on the UPs from similar but not exactly like the roll but sound like a roll maybe U Pipers were trying to emulate GH Pipers. Or since it is so natural a movement on Flute (there is not a more natural movement on FLute than the G roll) some Fluter could have started doing it and it just caught on. These are all theories I do not have a real answer but one of them could be right you never know (unless of course you know) and if some body out there has the real answer PLEASE enlighten us.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Difficult question:
It makes more sense to me that it came first from bagpipers, since they don't have another mean of articulation than the fingers, as Will Harmon said, and then it was adapted to the flute, and maybe the fiddle.
But I can't see it coming from classically trained violinists.
Then again, maybe the roll on wind instruments and the roll on string struments came from a different source. Who knows.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Difficult question:
What I said on another, unrelated thread also applies here: "Where you start matters far less than the road you eventually choose and where it takes you."
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Difficult question:
And the answer is:
We'll never know.
With all the cross pollination that has occurred between "folk" and "classical" music over the centuries, it's really impossible to sort out details like this.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Difficult question:
McGregor in Classical music there is a thing called a turn which is a roll but with different accents on different beats it is the same movement just slightly different.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Difficult question:
...and 'The Lark' (the gypsy one) is full of them, played slightly differently yet again...so it could be of Hungarian / Roumanian / gypsy origin too.....and that kind of music abounds with them on other instruments too, eg block flute, clarinet etc.
Jim
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Difficult question:
Avery, it's perhaps more likely that classical turns and mordents were derived from the articulations used by folk musicians. Just plain folks were playing dance music well before the powdered wig crowd got ahold of it.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Difficult question:
It is entirely possible that the classical turn and the Irish roll developed independently, and just happened to be similar. It's a simple enough idea, and people's brains work in more or less the same way. (The chances are, the wheel was invented in more than one place, by more than one person, at roughly the same period in human existence.) However the music that evolved, in the collective consciousness of the higher strata of European society, into what we know as classical music, must have come from somewhere. Like Will says, it is highly probable that classical musicians drew much of there ornamentation from filk music - after all, Western Art Music composers from C16 onwards made no secret of borrowing folk dance forms for their music. In reality, it was probably a little more complex than one musical genre simply taking from another - wherever they have coexisted, there is bound to have been mutual influence.
My theory is, the roll came from the oven and the cut came from the breadknife.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by ragaman
Re: Difficult question:
That could also be true Will. I doubt that it came from Pipers because UPs came from Pastoral Pipes which had similar fingerings to GHBs and probably used similar fingerings and embellshments and was probably adapted to the Pipes but a cran on the other hand definatley came from Pipes because to me it is so obviously a modified taroluath with an added lifting of the middle finger instead of going down to the lowest note it starts from the lowest note.
Now to bring up an even moreinteresting question: Why do all these types of music have similar ornaments?
That probably means that way back in the day somebody started doing it and it spread and noe all these different cultures have there own rendition of it. Maybe it dates back to some of the first bagpipes or maybe it started on an early Fiddle. I doubt it started on Fiddle as it seems such an unnatural motion and hard to execute it is the most natural on fiddle.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Difficult question:
I meant Flute at the end of my last post the last word should be Flute.
# Posted on March 25th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Difficult question:
Hi Unseen122, I know what a "classical" turn is, and I'm very familiar with this type of ornamentation. Still I don't think that the irish roll is the same thing as the classical turn, at least not in wind instruments where the purpose of the roll is to divide a long note in three short ones (to say it in a simple way).
# Posted on March 26th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Difficult question:
That is an interesting point but a roll is not always used that way even though I paly many isntruments Flute is really my thing (and UPs provided I ever have enough to buy a set I know I will love it though) some times it is used for that but not always. On Fiddle or Violin the Turn and Roll are the same thing with different rythmic variation. Who will ever know the right answer.
# Posted on March 26th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Difficult question:
"...the purpose of the roll is to divide a long note in three short ones..."
McGregor - True, the turn and the roll are not the same thing, but isn't it possible that one could have evolved into the other? Some say that the bodhrán was originally a winnowing tray. Some would also say that it should have been kept only for its original purpose, but the fact is, it was not.
Bagpipes of various kinds exist or have existed at some time in every part of Europe and some parts of Asia (Africa as well?). Whether they are an invention which has spread or they originated in more than one place is probably inconclusive, but one thing that most varieties (notable exceptions being the Uillean and Northumbrian pipes) have in common is that they are capable only of producing a continuous sound. Given the unavailability of silence as a means of splitting up or articulating notes, a little experimentation in a reasonably dexterous pair of hands would soon lead to the discovery of the principle interspersing notes with other, short notes - cuts and taps. It is then only a matter of time (perhaps decades, perhaps centuries) before these are juxtaposed in various combinations and permutations to create the crans, rolls, double-cut rolls and cheese salad rolls that we know today.
It is probable, however, that Uillean piping has drawn on Highland piping, and other piping traditions, since, I believe, these were in existence in the British Isles long before the Uillean pipes came to Ireland.
# Posted on March 26th 2005 by ragaman
Re: Difficult question:
Unseen, I see your point of comparing with the turn anyway. There might be a relation.
The truth I doubt we'll ever know, but the subject remains interesting.
Thanks to all for posting.
# Posted on March 26th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Difficult question:
No one has yet mentioned the considerable influence of the Sean Nos singer using the "Sacred Harp" (voice). All my musical life I have always been strongly persuaded by the human voices and their ability to express and emote. And I have tried to remember how the roots would or could have been for a particular tune. But maybe this is inappropriate for the modern high speed thought. MTCs
# Posted on March 28th 2005 by windybaer
Re: Difficult question:
Good point, Whis. I've often wondered (well, not all that often, but a few times anyway) which is primary in Indian classical music - voice or sitar (or other instrument). They use the same ornamentation and inflection. I've listened to a lot of Indian music and the feeling I get is that the instruments imitate the voice. I can't explain why, it just feels that way.
# Posted on March 28th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Difficult question:
I think that all the best instrumentaon imitates the voice in some manner. It may have something to do with how instruments that have a more analogue feel to them, like sitars and fiddles (both big in indian music) can sound more intimate
# Posted on March 28th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Difficult question:
To re-inforce what Avery (unseen122) says: The Bodhran is said to have originated as a winnowing tray (Some would say it should have stayed that way). At some point, someone on their lunch break decided to tap out a rhythm on it. Over time it was adapted to the purpose of being played as a drum.
The same thing could happen to a cluster of notes.
# Posted on April 2nd 2005 by ragaman
Re: Difficult question:
Of course, there's also the theory that the "tambourine" referred to in several texts from about the 1700s on is actually the bodhran, since the tambourine was zill-less.
# Posted on April 2nd 2005 by Zina Lee