There has been a few discussions re slow sessions lately. As someone who has been playing for many years I've reached the conclussion the many musicians, especially english ones, play irish music far too fast. Perhaps we should all carry metronomes. How refreshing it is to go to Galway and Clare and hear the likes of Charlie Piggot and Jacky Daly play tunes at the speed they were meant to be played.
Mike Dugger has made it a bit of a crusade to not play the tunes too fast at sessions when he's out about the country. He prefers a nice cruising speed to a bruising speed! My own experience is that many players play the music fast because they are trying to emulate their heroes. Unfortunately, sometimes they play faster than their ability to play the music both fast and well, and it turns into a bunch of notes more than anything else.
Speaking of Galway and Clare, I just bought "An Historic Recording of Irish Traditional Music" with Paddy Canny and PJ Hayes. It's just gorgeous. The music just flows along. I can't seem to get it out of my cd player!
Mike Dugger seems like a really nice man. I hope his crusade makes some headway. I always hope that some of the speed demons hear themselves on a recording some time and realize what a hash their making of the music. Actually, I know some of them probably don't care!
Zina, are you and yours ok out in smoke Colorado? I thought you lived fairly close to Denver.
Isn't that a wonderful CD?! I need to buy my own copy, I heard it at the Heaton's apartment, I believe it was, and loved it. (And, Mike is indeed a really nice man. He and his wife are truly good folks. I say that because I believe he lurks here occasionally these days, and I'm still trying to get a lesson out of him. heh)
Yes, we're fine so far, thanks for asking, Chris, although I understand that they're evacuating some folks down south of Denver, which is kind of scary. We live a little bit north and west of Denver towards Boulder (about seven miles east out of Boulder) in Lafayette. The skies have been very hazy with the smoke -- yesterday you could only see the outlines of the mountains, it was very weird, and my husband even got a headache from all the smoke in the air and the smell of the burning. The sunsets are quite colorful. We also have had some ash falling as well, and that's even more freaky. There's not a whole lot of danger that we'll be threatened here on the plains, but how awful for the people who are, don't you think?
Dirk's dad lives up in Nederland up in the mountains, and he's thinking of selling their house and moving down mountain -- they're right in the middle of the forest, and that's an uncomfortable place to be during fire season.
I don't think I've enjoyed and wanted to emulate a playing style so badly since I heard some ot the stuff on Paddy in the Smoke. It makes me happy just to listen to it! I picked up the 2 cd Gorman set too, but it can't hold candle to Paddy and PJ.
I read somewhere, Irate Trad maybe, that Mike doesn't play fiddle much anymore. Joint problems or something. But I suppose that wouldn't keep him from giving lessons, if you're lucky!
We've (as you know) had some really nasty big fires here in Cali, but I think your state is setting new records. We've had ashfall in my hometown over the years and it's scary and nasty. Always feels like the end of the world to me, even if the fire is not threatening us. And we lived in Berkeley during the Oakland Hills fire and were terrified it would burn down to the Bay like it did in the 20's or 30's. We were driving around yesterday and got stopped for awhile on one of the freeways because a fire was burning right up to the road. Then later we saw another on the way to Folsom. I feel so sorry for all those people and critters. I can't imagine living near a place with a coal fire burning underground. How weird!
This fast vs. slow thing seems to be an eternal source of discussion. I haven't heard anyone say what "too fast" represents or what "just right" is, like Goldilocks' porridge. And I don't mean the usual stuff about "rhythm", "just notes" or " it just becomes noise". Who plays "too fast"? There is no "speed at which tunes were meant to be played" unless you are playing for a dancer maybe.The whole notion of there being any "right way" to do anything in traditional music is wrong-headed. This notion of a standard, or any kind of criterion by which a performer can be measured was institutionalized by the Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann and led to singers from Ulster being ignored and the northern / Donegal style of fiddling to be positively discriminated against in competition. It didn't fit into the preconceived notions and resulted in a damnable snobbery. How the tide has turned with regard to Donegal fiddling now! The way you play and the speed at which you play is pretty much determined by your own taste, influences and, not least, technical ability. Certainly, I have met people who play at a speed way beyond their technical ability. On the other hand I have met people who can play at speeds way beyond MY technical ability -- and they still managed to keep a good rhythm going. Neither metronomes nor any personal crusade to reduce speed at sessions seems to me to be a good idea. I couldn't imagine going to a session and forcing a tempo on it. Ideally, you simply get good enough to handle any speed zone. But let's not disparage the fast players just because they can.
I've been where bushfires are such a regular occurrence, the local bushfire brigade put a notice on the front page of the community rag saying don't rely on us to put out your bushfires. A couple of times I had to drive right through them (blazing merrily, totally unchecked of course) on the way into and out of town.
The owner of the property I was on said to his neighbour, "I don't mind if you have a bushfire as long as it stays on your side of the fence!" And he did have one and it didn't jump the fence, but it burned down all the electricity poles and we were without electricity for five days till they got them up again. No joke, then we ran out of bottled gas! Everything, even the flour gets kept in the freezer (or should I say five huge big freezers) and heaps of stuff got spoiled. Couldn't use fans or pump bore water either. Lucky it was spring and only around 36 degrees celcius in the shade!!
Hope everyone is Okay round Denver. I did want to say something to LongNote, but somehow racing sessions has been overtaken by raging bushfires.
I remember years ago when i was starting out and had even more limited ability that now, i was always saying "thats too fast" regarding renditions on recordings by up and coming or establishe artistes.
looking back this sentiment was spurred on by the green-eyed goddess (shameful to admit), as many times the tunes were played well even masterfully, but simply faster than i could manage.
now i am more mellowed and content to scratch away at a pace i can manage and praise those whose virtuosity allows them to play well and fast. this is not to suggest that fast is better than a more tempered pace at all.
however, i have to say that at least as regards the fiddle played as a solo instrument, there are tunes which benefit from a faster rendition. This is due to the phenomenon of the bow (and now it gets tricky to describe.
Changing the bow direction (and giving slight emphasis to the change) means that we can create a kind of counter-rhythm within a tune, kind of like the off the beat claps you hear in flamenco. if you play a tune at a modest pace, these effects are less pronounced. at a faster pace they become enthralling.
To fast? there is no such thing -it is all down to personal taste. I went to Malin in donegal for a couple of tunes - jesus did they play at break neck speed - but it was beatiful - I personally like playing at a cruisy speed. By the way - the comment about bringing a metronomes along is not a good suggestion - ITM doesnt fit into playing along with metronomes. It has a different rythm - for example - if I was playing and someone was next to me who had played all the time with a metronomes I could tell ) GO Ireland - we won
ps - I'm sorry about the fires - had not heard about them at all, but have been in the same situation many times - and it is probably one of the scariest thing in the world - something that just cannot be controlled no matter how much we want to control it!
Ah well, if it comes to that, my own personal opinion is that there's only "too fast" for any particular player. Kevin Burke's "fast" is considerably (as in "lots and lots") faster than my "fast", for instance. I like a session that goes all sorts of speeds, as some of the reels sound really wonderful as slow reels, at least to my ear, and there's also nothing like a buncha really fast reels done by really wonderful players.
It's important to understand, though, for all you Irish players out there, that oftentimes out here in the hinterland of the States, often people try to play like they hear the players in Ireland or even in Boston or Chicago or San Francisco, and they're just not ready for it. There's nothing wrong with any tempo, of course, and as I say, I do like a session that changes it up a lot.
Chris, Mike doesn't play the fiddle anymore because he can't feel the third finger of his left hand anymore -- there's some kind of nerve problem. He's going to have an operation in July, I think it is, or maybe August to try to correct it, but he's not sure he'll ever going to go back to the fiddle -- he's having much too much fun with the box!
Fire: My aunt and her husband live in Oakland Hills -- their house has a giant redwood next to it that's burnt up all one side, that's how close it was. I'm not sure if our smoke is from the Colorado Springs fire or the Glenwood Springs fire -- neither are particularly close to here (CO Sgs is two hours away and Glenwood is about four), and the amount of smoke and ash we're getting here is indicative of how huge those fires are. My next door neighbor was in downtown Denver yesterday morning, and when he walked out of his meeting, he thought that there was a building somewhere close on fire.
Don, a good player can give those beats emphasis without speeding up and they sound just as enthralling -- I had a graphic demonstration of that in my lesson with George Keith this weekend! It all just goes to show that there's a place for everything -- and every speed!
I'm glad you all respect such a worthy man. The last time I saw him was at least a year ago. He was playing the guitar and tenor Banjo. By that time, he described his finger click problem to me. Thanks for the update Zina.
I read everyones opinions about speed demons and such. I'll add my 2 cents which is merely a ratification of what some of the others have already said. I believe that well controlled and cleanly played fast tunes are fabulous.
I have a few show pieces that I have been playing with for years and years. There are about 6 of them that I play at an utterly ridiculous tempo. If you are not sure what I mean by ridiculous - set the metronome around 80 and play an entire measure each click. I will generally take one of these tunes and show it during an evening. I start very slow and work the tempo into the frenzy by the time it's done. This pleases the heck out the casual visitors and many of the Die Hards enjoy it.
I will state for the record that 80 per measure or 320 per quarter is too fast. A bowing mistake might cost you a quarter of a second then 3 notes are trashed. HOWEVER, if the instrumentalist can do it - let them. Backup parts become a problem now. I get these beautiful expresive backup parts when I'm on the slow part. I get these ugly banged out choppy chords at top speed.
If the band wants me to make a show piece out of one of the tunes, then they have to follow a simple rule. Do not Play something at a slow tempo that you can't maintain at a super fast tempo. The limitation on speed is no longer in my hands but in the bands hands. If they understand that the music can be played as fast as everyone wants as long as it can be played well at top tempo, and they don't mind some necessary simplicity at the slow tempos, then we can do it.
I was called to do a pickup gig with a Bodhran player, Harp player, winds/guitar palayer. We practiced for 2 hours on Wednesday. The Bodhran player asked me to show a piece that he was familiar with. I started in on it at the slow tempo then began to speed up. The Guitarist was beautifully intricate in the beginning. We had to stop and warn him what was coming up and ask him to simplify the backup. He flat out said that he could keep up with anything I played. I sped up the music and he went into chord banging in no time. I said that would be fine. The night of the show I didn't show any pieces and I relaxed all of my Reels so he could do a good job with them.
Too fast? That's the pace where you start making a mess of the music. At jam sessions I recommend an easy 108 or 112 per half note tempo for reels. Getting down as slow as 80 per half note opens tons of opportunities for some inventiveness. That is another discussion.
Mark I have to disagree with you 100% about starting out slow & then speeding a tune up to 200+ bpm, that's not what it's about at all. First of all - how would one dance to that? after all reels, jigs etc are dance rhythms. Secondly have you ever heard a good Irish musician do that? Every fine player I've ever met or heard keeps consistant tempos, whether fast or slow the tempo remains rock steady even if it's their showpiece. I don't care if tempo is fast or slow, but if the tempo speeds up or down it's poo.
I think Mark was talking his show pieces, nodancers involved. I myself have done what he's talking about on a number of tunes where the dancers were not involved, started slow, then picking up the pace to a blistering tempo that generaly ends with the crowd going nuts wanting more.
HOWEVER,,,,when the dancers are involved, the tempo's stay put unless pre-arranged with them.
I've heard other groups do the same, change tempo's. (Altan, Dervish, Alasder Frasier, etc) When done right, it's mighty impressive.
Well, the man deserves a fan club, I guess...! Mildly funny story: so, we're telling stories while out having Indian food with Glen Road before a show or summat, and Mike is talking about what Martin Hayes said, or how Liz Carroll did this as a huge favor for him and saved his butt, or whatever, and somebody laughed and said, Mike, you're our connection to the stars! Mike, of course, laughed right back and said he didn't think he deserved even that close a mention to some of these folks, and so we started calling him Mike Dugger, Conduit to the Stars.
So next time you see Mike, PLEASE find some way to work a reference to his semi-official title as Conduit into the conversation. *grin*
Altan & Dervish have never done that, Alasdar Fraser is a Scotish Fiddler. It's a trick that may impress some people - but it is looked down on in ITM. If you want a show piece learn The Banks Hornpipes or the Tarbolton Set. You'll score more points with people who know their ear from their elbow.
In review of my comment it seemed a little bit harsh - I ment it on the dry sarcastic side but it could be taken as an attack, which I didn't mean in any way. I should have added a *grin* or a , I know that some crowds do eat up hearing the fiddle blaze through "The Mason's Apron", my own tastes prefer the Bothy Band ending a set with an exciting rendition of "The Holy Land". But they are all just tastes & nothing is writ in stone. I like the older showpieces which showcased all skills.
No offense taken. (If you were refering go me) My CD player must speed the CD's I have of these guys up and slow down during the medleys they put together or something, I just know what I hear 'em doing and it sounds good.
I Love this! Thanks for paying attention Mad Baloney. I appreciate disagreement.
As an illustration to a reel that starts off slow and speeds up I give you the "O"range "B"lossom "S"pecial. There is no way that I am going to play the OBS again before a Celtic Audience. As a matter of fact, I can't really say that I ever want to play it again. Basically, a constantly changing and ultra fast tempo has a place in Celtic Music.
I have played for dancers for years as a sideline diversion. I appreciate the absolute need for a steady relaxed tempo. I also enjoy finding more opportunities in the music by playing at that easy tempo.
At sessions, I keep the tempo as steady as a rock because I practice with a metronome. (Gnome indeed!)
Anyhow - my playing takes on quite a few dimensions, it certainly appeals to quite a few people. I enjoy the audience responses. I love the roar in the ears when they believe they just heard something awesome.
I have some other non-traditional contents in my trick-book. I can't wait to share them with you all. Some of you will place me against the wall for a quick firing squad practice. Some of you will agree. Noetheless I find all the conversation interesting and informative.
Thanks for the support FlyinFiddler.
And Zina - I'll say Hi to ole "Conduit" next time I see him. I wanted to ask his permission to record Alabama Rick's the next time I see him. Love that tune.
Apparently Rick himself hates the nickname, according to Mike (I wouldn't know, I've never met the man myself), but everybody loves the tune, so now he's stuck with it. So it's only justice that Mike is now stuck with his own nick, don't you think? *grin*
I have played fast, in tune with a steady beat, while looking sexy, getting paid, drinking free beer from my reserved seat. The alarm went off before it got really good. Never could manage that sexy part. ;)
*snicker* I've managed all those at one point or another, just never all together. And now I'm getting older (and fatter), the looking sexy part is getting harder.
I've managed 'em all at least once, well, maybe not the sexy part. I've thought of changing my handle to "The Fat Fiddler".
I saw the OBS word up the thread a ways. I'm with you man,,, never again. I hate that tune with a passion. I quite playing it a couple of years ago. (Lessen it's writtin on a $5 bill or larger) Same thing with Dualing banjos. Whenever I get me 5 string out the first thing I hear is, "Do you know dualing banjos?"
My general response to both is, "I'm just not into violence."
I think there is a time and a place for slow, medium, fast, and finger flamers. The thing to think about its, "Am I capable of playing it without becoming a train wreck?" and "Is this the time and place for it?"
Its funny they always ask for dualing banjos, whenever there is a session in galway, someone always askes can we sing 'danny boy', I mean really, If I could sing I dont think I wouldve gone through the heartache of learning the bleeding fiddle, and I certainly would not be singing Danny boy!!
I know a tune is being played too fast(for me) when find myself clenching my teeth to keep up to tempo, and my right hand starts aching furiously - and, although I don't hear myself much in sessions, being a mandolin player, I suspect my playing sounds horrible. That speed varies from day to day, according to how much sleep I've had, what I've had for breakfast etc.
You are correct, it is dance music. I play for stepdancers, Contra dances, and in training to be a Feis musician. But, when not playing for dancers, it is fun to adjust speeds for fun. Play a fast one slow, play a slow one fast, (It generaly works better playing fast ones slow, "Far Away" just don't work fast.)
About playing fast, a few years ago I met a guy from Ireland who played a 4 string banjo. He was an older guy, late 50's, long gray hair, snaggled up teeth, I never got his name, but from his playing it was obvious he was no slouch. We took off on Fishers Hornpipe at a blazing pace and while he kept up with much ease he shook his head and said "Oh you Americans play these things way to fast." So I got it in my head at that time we here in the states just played everything to fast. From what I'm reading here tells me it's a common problem everywhere.
TOO FAST
TOO FAST
There has been a few discussions re slow sessions lately. As someone who has been playing for many years I've reached the conclussion the many musicians, especially english ones, play irish music far too fast. Perhaps we should all carry metronomes. How refreshing it is to go to Galway and Clare and hear the likes of Charlie Piggot and Jacky Daly play tunes at the speed they were meant to be played.
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by ricthewhistle
Re: TOO FAST
Mike Dugger has made it a bit of a crusade to not play the tunes too fast at sessions when he's out about the country. He prefers a nice cruising speed to a bruising speed! My own experience is that many players play the music fast because they are trying to emulate their heroes. Unfortunately, sometimes they play faster than their ability to play the music both fast and well, and it turns into a bunch of notes more than anything else.
Zina
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: TOO FAST
Speaking of Galway and Clare, I just bought "An Historic Recording of Irish Traditional Music" with Paddy Canny and PJ Hayes. It's just gorgeous. The music just flows along. I can't seem to get it out of my cd player!
Mike Dugger seems like a really nice man. I hope his crusade makes some headway. I always hope that some of the speed demons hear themselves on a recording some time and realize what a hash their making of the music. Actually, I know some of them probably don't care!
Zina, are you and yours ok out in smoke Colorado? I thought you lived fairly close to Denver.
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by soft black stars
Err, that shoulda been Smokey Colorado
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: TOO FAST
Isn't that a wonderful CD?! I need to buy my own copy, I heard it at the Heaton's apartment, I believe it was, and loved it. (And, Mike is indeed a really nice man. He and his wife are truly good folks. I say that because I believe he lurks here occasionally these days, and I'm still trying to get a lesson out of him. heh)
Yes, we're fine so far, thanks for asking, Chris, although I understand that they're evacuating some folks down south of Denver, which is kind of scary. We live a little bit north and west of Denver towards Boulder (about seven miles east out of Boulder) in Lafayette. The skies have been very hazy with the smoke -- yesterday you could only see the outlines of the mountains, it was very weird, and my husband even got a headache from all the smoke in the air and the smell of the burning. The sunsets are quite colorful. We also have had some ash falling as well, and that's even more freaky. There's not a whole lot of danger that we'll be threatened here on the plains, but how awful for the people who are, don't you think?
Dirk's dad lives up in Nederland up in the mountains, and he's thinking of selling their house and moving down mountain -- they're right in the middle of the forest, and that's an uncomfortable place to be during fire season.
It's all very lifelike.
Zina
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: TOO FAST
I don't think I've enjoyed and wanted to emulate a playing style so badly since I heard some ot the stuff on Paddy in the Smoke. It makes me happy just to listen to it! I picked up the 2 cd Gorman set too, but it can't hold candle to Paddy and PJ.
I read somewhere, Irate Trad maybe, that Mike doesn't play fiddle much anymore. Joint problems or something. But I suppose that wouldn't keep him from giving lessons, if you're lucky!
We've (as you know) had some really nasty big fires here in Cali, but I think your state is setting new records. We've had ashfall in my hometown over the years and it's scary and nasty. Always feels like the end of the world to me, even if the fire is not threatening us. And we lived in Berkeley during the Oakland Hills fire and were terrified it would burn down to the Bay like it did in the 20's or 30's. We were driving around yesterday and got stopped for awhile on one of the freeways because a fire was burning right up to the road. Then later we saw another on the way to Folsom. I feel so sorry for all those people and critters. I can't imagine living near a place with a coal fire burning underground. How weird!
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: TOO FAST
This fast vs. slow thing seems to be an eternal source of discussion. I haven't heard anyone say what "too fast" represents or what "just right" is, like Goldilocks' porridge. And I don't mean the usual stuff about "rhythm", "just notes" or " it just becomes noise". Who plays "too fast"? There is no "speed at which tunes were meant to be played" unless you are playing for a dancer maybe.The whole notion of there being any "right way" to do anything in traditional music is wrong-headed. This notion of a standard, or any kind of criterion by which a performer can be measured was institutionalized by the Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann and led to singers from Ulster being ignored and the northern / Donegal style of fiddling to be positively discriminated against in competition. It didn't fit into the preconceived notions and resulted in a damnable snobbery. How the tide has turned with regard to Donegal fiddling now! The way you play and the speed at which you play is pretty much determined by your own taste, influences and, not least, technical ability. Certainly, I have met people who play at a speed way beyond their technical ability. On the other hand I have met people who can play at speeds way beyond MY technical ability -- and they still managed to keep a good rhythm going. Neither metronomes nor any personal crusade to reduce speed at sessions seems to me to be a good idea. I couldn't imagine going to a session and forcing a tempo on it. Ideally, you simply get good enough to handle any speed zone. But let's not disparage the fast players just because they can.
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by LongNote
Re: TOO FAST
I've been where bushfires are such a regular occurrence, the local bushfire brigade put a notice on the front page of the community rag saying don't rely on us to put out your bushfires. A couple of times I had to drive right through them (blazing merrily, totally unchecked of course) on the way into and out of town.
The owner of the property I was on said to his neighbour, "I don't mind if you have a bushfire as long as it stays on your side of the fence!" And he did have one and it didn't jump the fence, but it burned down all the electricity poles and we were without electricity for five days till they got them up again. No joke, then we ran out of bottled gas! Everything, even the flour gets kept in the freezer (or should I say five huge big freezers) and heaps of stuff got spoiled. Couldn't use fans or pump bore water either. Lucky it was spring and only around 36 degrees celcius in the shade!!
Hope everyone is Okay round Denver. I did want to say something to LongNote, but somehow racing sessions has been overtaken by raging bushfires.
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by Jill
Re: TOO FAST
I remember years ago when i was starting out and had even more limited ability that now, i was always saying "thats too fast" regarding renditions on recordings by up and coming or establishe artistes.
looking back this sentiment was spurred on by the green-eyed goddess (shameful to admit), as many times the tunes were played well even masterfully, but simply faster than i could manage.
now i am more mellowed and content to scratch away at a pace i can manage and praise those whose virtuosity allows them to play well and fast. this is not to suggest that fast is better than a more tempered pace at all.
however, i have to say that at least as regards the fiddle played as a solo instrument, there are tunes which benefit from a faster rendition. This is due to the phenomenon of the bow (and now it gets tricky to describe.
Changing the bow direction (and giving slight emphasis to the change) means that we can create a kind of counter-rhythm within a tune, kind of like the off the beat claps you hear in flamenco. if you play a tune at a modest pace, these effects are less pronounced. at a faster pace they become enthralling.
# Posted on June 10th 2002 by donnchad
Re: TOO FAST
To fast? there is no such thing -it is all down to personal taste. I went to Malin in donegal for a couple of tunes - jesus did they play at break neck speed - but it was beatiful - I personally like playing at a cruisy speed. By the way - the comment about bringing a metronomes along is not a good suggestion - ITM doesnt fit into playing along with metronomes. It has a different rythm - for example - if I was playing and someone was next to me who had played all the time with a metronomes I could tell
) GO Ireland - we won
ps - I'm sorry about the fires - had not heard about them at all, but have been in the same situation many times - and it is probably one of the scariest thing in the world - something that just cannot be controlled no matter how much we want to control it!
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by bb
Re: TOO FAST
Ah well, if it comes to that, my own personal opinion is that there's only "too fast" for any particular player. Kevin Burke's "fast" is considerably (as in "lots and lots") faster than my "fast", for instance. I like a session that goes all sorts of speeds, as some of the reels sound really wonderful as slow reels, at least to my ear, and there's also nothing like a buncha really fast reels done by really wonderful players.
It's important to understand, though, for all you Irish players out there, that oftentimes out here in the hinterland of the States, often people try to play like they hear the players in Ireland or even in Boston or Chicago or San Francisco, and they're just not ready for it. There's nothing wrong with any tempo, of course, and as I say, I do like a session that changes it up a lot.
Chris, Mike doesn't play the fiddle anymore because he can't feel the third finger of his left hand anymore -- there's some kind of nerve problem. He's going to have an operation in July, I think it is, or maybe August to try to correct it, but he's not sure he'll ever going to go back to the fiddle -- he's having much too much fun with the box!
Fire: My aunt and her husband live in Oakland Hills -- their house has a giant redwood next to it that's burnt up all one side, that's how close it was. I'm not sure if our smoke is from the Colorado Springs fire or the Glenwood Springs fire -- neither are particularly close to here (CO Sgs is two hours away and Glenwood is about four), and the amount of smoke and ash we're getting here is indicative of how huge those fires are. My next door neighbor was in downtown Denver yesterday morning, and when he walked out of his meeting, he thought that there was a building somewhere close on fire.
Don, a good player can give those beats emphasis without speeding up and they sound just as enthralling -- I had a graphic demonstration of that in my lesson with George Keith this weekend! It all just goes to show that there's a place for everything -- and every speed!
Zina
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: TOO FAST
Q. Wat are metronomes?
A. Small people on the paris underground.
Get it? Metro Gnomes. Sorry, i know its a bad joke but felt with all the talk of metronomes i shud get it in.
No speed is a wrong speed, all depends on your opinion, your mood, and the efffect you want to create.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Wackadack
What is this? The Mike Dugger Fanclub?
I'm glad you all respect such a worthy man. The last time I saw him was at least a year ago. He was playing the guitar and tenor Banjo. By that time, he described his finger click problem to me. Thanks for the update Zina.
I read everyones opinions about speed demons and such. I'll add my 2 cents which is merely a ratification of what some of the others have already said. I believe that well controlled and cleanly played fast tunes are fabulous.
I have a few show pieces that I have been playing with for years and years. There are about 6 of them that I play at an utterly ridiculous tempo. If you are not sure what I mean by ridiculous - set the metronome around 80 and play an entire measure each click. I will generally take one of these tunes and show it during an evening. I start very slow and work the tempo into the frenzy by the time it's done. This pleases the heck out the casual visitors and many of the Die Hards enjoy it.
I will state for the record that 80 per measure or 320 per quarter is too fast. A bowing mistake might cost you a quarter of a second then 3 notes are trashed. HOWEVER, if the instrumentalist can do it - let them. Backup parts become a problem now. I get these beautiful expresive backup parts when I'm on the slow part. I get these ugly banged out choppy chords at top speed.
If the band wants me to make a show piece out of one of the tunes, then they have to follow a simple rule. Do not Play something at a slow tempo that you can't maintain at a super fast tempo. The limitation on speed is no longer in my hands but in the bands hands. If they understand that the music can be played as fast as everyone wants as long as it can be played well at top tempo, and they don't mind some necessary simplicity at the slow tempos, then we can do it.
I was called to do a pickup gig with a Bodhran player, Harp player, winds/guitar palayer. We practiced for 2 hours on Wednesday. The Bodhran player asked me to show a piece that he was familiar with. I started in on it at the slow tempo then began to speed up. The Guitarist was beautifully intricate in the beginning. We had to stop and warn him what was coming up and ask him to simplify the backup. He flat out said that he could keep up with anything I played. I sped up the music and he went into chord banging in no time. I said that would be fine. The night of the show I didn't show any pieces and I relaxed all of my Reels so he could do a good job with them.
Too fast? That's the pace where you start making a mess of the music. At jam sessions I recommend an easy 108 or 112 per half note tempo for reels. Getting down as slow as 80 per half note opens tons of opportunities for some inventiveness. That is another discussion.
Mark
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: TOO FAST
Mark I have to disagree with you 100% about starting out slow & then speeding a tune up to 200+ bpm, that's not what it's about at all. First of all - how would one dance to that? after all reels, jigs etc are dance rhythms. Secondly have you ever heard a good Irish musician do that? Every fine player I've ever met or heard keeps consistant tempos, whether fast or slow the tempo remains rock steady even if it's their showpiece. I don't care if tempo is fast or slow, but if the tempo speeds up or down it's poo.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by B Rad
Re: TOO FAST
I think Mark was talking his show pieces, nodancers involved. I myself have done what he's talking about on a number of tunes where the dancers were not involved, started slow, then picking up the pace to a blistering tempo that generaly ends with the crowd going nuts wanting more.
HOWEVER,,,,when the dancers are involved, the tempo's stay put unless pre-arranged with them.
I've heard other groups do the same, change tempo's. (Altan, Dervish, Alasder Frasier, etc) When done right, it's mighty impressive.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Mike Dugger, Conduit to the Stars
Well, the man deserves a fan club, I guess...! Mildly funny story: so, we're telling stories while out having Indian food with Glen Road before a show or summat, and Mike is talking about what Martin Hayes said, or how Liz Carroll did this as a huge favor for him and saved his butt, or whatever, and somebody laughed and said, Mike, you're our connection to the stars! Mike, of course, laughed right back and said he didn't think he deserved even that close a mention to some of these folks, and so we started calling him Mike Dugger, Conduit to the Stars.
So next time you see Mike, PLEASE find some way to work a reference to his semi-official title as Conduit into the conversation. *grin*
(He's going to kill me.)
Zina
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: TOO FAST
Altan & Dervish have never done that, Alasdar Fraser is a Scotish Fiddler. It's a trick that may impress some people - but it is looked down on in ITM. If you want a show piece learn The Banks Hornpipes or the Tarbolton Set. You'll score more points with people who know their ear from their elbow.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by B Rad
Re: TOO FAST
In review of my comment it seemed a little bit harsh - I ment it on the dry sarcastic side but it could be taken as an attack, which I didn't mean in any way. I should have added a *grin* or a
, I know that some crowds do eat up hearing the fiddle blaze through "The Mason's Apron", my own tastes prefer the Bothy Band ending a set with an exciting rendition of "The Holy Land". But they are all just tastes & nothing is writ in stone. I like the older showpieces which showcased all skills.
Flossing with shoe-laces,
Brad
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by B Rad
Re: TOO FAST
No offense taken. (If you were refering go me) My CD player must speed the CD's I have of these guys up and slow down during the medleys they put together or something, I just know what I hear 'em doing and it sounds good.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: TOO FAST
Glad I didn't get you worked up, this music is about fun - not about taking people down.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by B Rad
Re: TOO FAST
mark said: Too fast? That's the pace where you start making a mess of the music.
Agreed.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: TOO FAST
Agreed.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: TOO FAST
I Love this! Thanks for paying attention Mad Baloney. I appreciate disagreement.
As an illustration to a reel that starts off slow and speeds up I give you the "O"range "B"lossom "S"pecial. There is no way that I am going to play the OBS again before a Celtic Audience. As a matter of fact, I can't really say that I ever want to play it again. Basically, a constantly changing and ultra fast tempo has a place in Celtic Music.
I have played for dancers for years as a sideline diversion. I appreciate the absolute need for a steady relaxed tempo. I also enjoy finding more opportunities in the music by playing at that easy tempo.
At sessions, I keep the tempo as steady as a rock because I practice with a metronome. (Gnome indeed!)
Anyhow - my playing takes on quite a few dimensions, it certainly appeals to quite a few people. I enjoy the audience responses. I love the roar in the ears when they believe they just heard something awesome.
I have some other non-traditional contents in my trick-book. I can't wait to share them with you all. Some of you will place me against the wall for a quick firing squad practice. Some of you will agree. Noetheless I find all the conversation interesting and informative.
Thanks for the support FlyinFiddler.
And Zina - I'll say Hi to ole "Conduit" next time I see him. I wanted to ask his permission to record Alabama Rick's the next time I see him. Love that tune.
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: TOO FAST
Apparently Rick himself hates the nickname, according to Mike (I wouldn't know, I've never met the man myself), but everybody loves the tune, so now he's stuck with it.
So it's only justice that Mike is now stuck with his own nick, don't you think? *grin*
Zina
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: TOO FAST
WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO
PLAY FAST,IN TUNE,STEADY BEAT,LOOK SEXY
GET PAID,FREE BEER ,RESERVED SEAT
ILL THEN ASK TRICKY QUESTIONS
Bill
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by bill mac
Re: TOO FAST
Bill - you either have it, or you dont!
(i'd be happy with just the free beer!)
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by bb
Re: TOO FAST
I have played fast, in tune with a steady beat, while looking sexy, getting paid, drinking free beer from my reserved seat. The alarm went off before it got really good. Never could manage that sexy part. ;)
Mark
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: TOO FAST
*snicker* I've managed all those at one point or another, just never all together. And now I'm getting older (and fatter), the looking sexy part is getting harder.
Zina
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: TOO FAST
I'm always sexy (hahahhahh
)
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by bb
Re: TOO FAST
I've managed 'em all at least once, well, maybe not the sexy part. I've thought of changing my handle to "The Fat Fiddler".
I saw the OBS word up the thread a ways. I'm with you man,,, never again. I hate that tune with a passion. I quite playing it a couple of years ago. (Lessen it's writtin on a $5 bill or larger) Same thing with Dualing banjos. Whenever I get me 5 string out the first thing I hear is, "Do you know dualing banjos?"
My general response to both is, "I'm just not into violence."
I think there is a time and a place for slow, medium, fast, and finger flamers. The thing to think about its, "Am I capable of playing it without becoming a train wreck?" and "Is this the time and place for it?"
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: TOO FAST
Its funny they always ask for dualing banjos, whenever there is a session in galway, someone always askes can we sing 'danny boy', I mean really, If I could sing I dont think I wouldve gone through the heartache of learning the bleeding fiddle, and I certainly would not be singing Danny boy!!
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by bb
Re: TOO FAST
Amen brother! Preach it bb!
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: TOO FAST
I used to sing, but for the sake of the ears around me I quit,, actually,,, there's a few tunes I've done the same thing with.
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by flyinfiddler
,,,on the fiddle that is.
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: TOO FAST
I know a tune is being played too fast(for me) when find myself clenching my teeth to keep up to tempo, and my right hand starts aching furiously - and, although I don't hear myself much in sessions, being a mandolin player, I suspect my playing sounds horrible. That speed varies from day to day, according to how much sleep I've had, what I've had for breakfast etc.
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: TOO FAST
The thing is, it's dance music. Anyone who has danced, or played for dancers, will never play too fast again. And, yes, most sessions go too fast.
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by cliff
Re: TOO FAST
You are correct, it is dance music. I play for stepdancers, Contra dances, and in training to be a Feis musician. But, when not playing for dancers, it is fun to adjust speeds for fun. Play a fast one slow, play a slow one fast, (It generaly works better playing fast ones slow, "Far Away" just don't work fast.)
About playing fast, a few years ago I met a guy from Ireland who played a 4 string banjo. He was an older guy, late 50's, long gray hair, snaggled up teeth, I never got his name, but from his playing it was obvious he was no slouch. We took off on Fishers Hornpipe at a blazing pace and while he kept up with much ease he shook his head and said "Oh you Americans play these things way to fast." So I got it in my head at that time we here in the states just played everything to fast. From what I'm reading here tells me it's a common problem everywhere.
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by flyinfiddler