Had a bad lesson last Friday and am wondering what I should expect. Thought I would throw this out to see if I am expecting too much from the teacher.
Have been taking lessons solidly for about a year now. Have picked up some technique, style etc. I have been working through Matt Cranitch’s book with the teacher. Have been improving, can even feel this for myself as opposed to being told. However, I am still playing slowly. Going methodically through tunes at a rate of about a tune a week. I add this as for the few months, that’s all I’ve been doing. Each week a new tune. We play it through and go on to the next. Each tune played slowly.
Last Fri. the teacher was tired (I can relate) and had previously mentioned how boring it is to play this stuff slowly. We started playing, ..way too fast for me. I lost my place of course, tried again. And so on. In a sense, I think the teacher, in an effort to relieve her boredom and stay awake, played at her speed. I finally stopped and indicated that the teacher was going too fast. So of course, starting again but this time, ridiculously slowly. At this point I’m shot, just waiting to get out of there as was the teacher.
My question is this, What should I expect from lessons? Is there more to teaching this stuff than working through a tune book? Although Cranitch does have valuable information in his book, the bulk of it is tunes. But having that extra hand keeping track of mistakes, showing examples, coming up with exercises for the ornaments, etc. all help. Or am I expecting more than the average bear. My thoughts, this is a lesson, Not a session!
Thanks in advance for any input.
Deb.
You haven't said if your teacher is a trad musician or if working through the book was your idea or her's? I thought that a requirement for a good teacher(of anything)was a bit of patience. By all means, encourage the student to work hard and do better but to do so at a realistic pace.
Anyway, I've always found myself that learning a instrument is a case of "three steps forward, two steps(sometimes more ) back". I'm still like that sometimes.
John, she is a trad musician, and it was her suggestion to start with the Cranitch book. I certainly don't find any problem with the book. Actually, reading his notes has been beneficial. I've brought up a few of his points during lessons for an extra few point, things she hadn't been aware of. It just seems as though this has become a tune learning session as opposed to learning the technique, style etc. and that is the problem I have right now. My teacher has become much busier since I've started, hence being tired.
Hi Deb. I've been taking lessons from the same teacher for *8* years now, so I know a bit about making lessons work for me. but it took some time, and I imagine the teacher/student dynamic is different in each individual situation.
That being said, I think it was very unprofessional of your teacher to profess boredom!! Admitting to being tired is ok, we all get tired, but that alone should not necessarily ruin the lesson. My teacher once said to me after playing a tune a bazillion times through for the second lesson in a row. "Don't worry, I never get tired of hearing a great tune!" That put me at ease and let me know she was not bored or frustrated with me.
Also, I think a tune a week is good if you can go home and do your best to play it over and over and get to know it thoroughly. I found that with my teacher, while it *seemed* to be about learning tunes only, learning tecnique was in there too.
Lately, however, I realized I had plenty of tunes and needed to work on tecnique only. I had to let my teacher know this is what I needed. Ask and you shall receive. I think she was pleased at my seriousness to learn and get better even when no new tunes were involved. So I've been coming to her with themes for my lessons. For example I might say, "For the next few weeks, we've got to work on my bowing wrist" or " I feel my jigs aren't "jiggy" enough. Let's just go over jjigs for the next few weeks and figure out how I can make them better."
A good teacher should always be willing to learn how to become a better teacher through her/his students. Talk to your teacher and figure out how you can work on it together. Let me know what happens!
Deb, express yourself to your teacher. She probably feels she's accomplished quite a bit if she's gotten one tune into you a week. I think that's normal in trad. Every master class or lesson I've ever taken involves learning a tune and then working in some technique. (Disclaimer: we're talking about a dozen or so, not thousands).
If you're a beginner, there probably isn't time to work in the technique part in your allotted hour, or whatever it is. So what you ought to do is: Take the tune you've been taught one week, practice your arse off all week until your fingers have absolutely no trouble with the notes, and tell your teacher you'd like to spend the first ten or fifteen minutes of each lesson reviewing the tune from the week before, but working in a few ideas for bowing, ornaments, and dynamics.
Don't forget to practice, either. If you want to learn fiddle by playing an hour a week it's going to take you 200 years to get any good. If you're not practicing, I guarantee your teacher is sitting there thinking "Dear god, this is hopeless. Why do I bother?" Which may or may not contribute to her tiredness.
Personally, I only had three or four lessons with an actual "teacher", at the very start. Between each lesson I must have practiced 5 hours a day at least, sometimes more. You should have SEEN how excited she was every time I turned up on her doorstep.
Would have thought it beneficial to stay with the same 2 or 3 tunes over and over again until you've mastered them and the techniques before moving on to the next 2 or 3.
Leastways that's how i did it on the whistle.
bodhr`n was different for me. I found i had a natural talent for playing out of rhythm and successfully upsetting the musos so I don't have to practice it.
Kerri, looks like you and I are in agreement pretty much, except I do think an hour is plenty of time to focus on tecnique in addition to tunes. My lessons are only a half hour and we do that. It just takes a laser focus, and like you said *loads* of practice throughout the week!
Practice is the key in anything. That said, I actually do practice. No where near 5hrs a day though. Don't have that kind of time left after work. I practice about an hour a day. She's tired due to going back to school, back to sessions and playing more gigs. And somewhere in all that, she does have her family.
I can imagine the "Oh for the love of God" kind of feeling if the student wasn't getting anywhere. My skill level has increased. I'm just not a the point of playing at 100% speed yet. This was the problem at last lesson. My feeling at this point is that I'm the one paying for a lesson, not paying to entertain the teacher.
Joe, you and I really should get together for that international band!
Right, well that's good to hear, Deb. An hour a day is plenty. I was in an ideal situation - tiny little island in the Pacific with no neighbours and nothing to do all day but walk the dog. The five-hours-a-day thing is only possible when I'm unemployed.
(Why do you think I'm trying so hard to get fired!)
Hmmm. Tough one, Deb. Being a teacher myself and having led a tune learning session for a few years, I can think of a jillion things that could come down on some kind of fault on either side of the fence. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as it usually is.
For one, it's worth knowing that among quite a few players, it's expected that the teacher does not teach you to play a tune up to speed, they only teach you the tune and whatever points of technique or whatever they want you to learn -- it's up to the student to take it home and get the thing up to speed.
Oh hell, hang on, I have to go take care of some business here, I'll come back in a bit, Deb!
You know, sometimes even with a great teacher and a willing and conscientous student, there will still be a few "bad lesson" days. As long as it doesn't become too frequent, it's ok.
There are lots of different dynamics involved in lessons. I agree the teacher should adapt to the needs of the student, as long as the student is willing to push themselves to progress. And that's the real key. Not only motivates the student but the teacher as well.
Like you folks have pointed out, practice is the real key.
As far as focusing on teaching tunes or working more on technique, as long as I have a recording, I can always learn the tune on my own. Teach me how to rip it apart and put it back together with the proper intonation, rhythm and ornamentation.
Our school tries very hard to do both. We begin each 10 week session by giving out a CD with about a dozen tunes we'll learn that term. We encourage everyone to listen to the tunes over and over until ythey can diddley them in their sleep. It is sometimes hard to get past just teaching the tunes to the beginner classes but, in the intermediate and advanced classed we're really able to get into the bones of it.
By the way, I should have mentioned I think it was inconsiderate of your teacher to leave you in the dust like that. You should tell her nicely if she doesn't feel up to giving you a lesson it's OK for her to call you ahead of time and cancel. You'd be better off using that time to practice on your own.
Andee,
Not sure I can completely agree when you say,
"if your teacher expects you to play anywhere *near* session speed after only a year of lessons that is completely and unforgiveably unrealistic!"
I think there are a lot of factors involved there. The student's background, amount of practice time, amount of "listening" time, to name but a few. How well they know the specific tune being played, are we talking about the Britches polka or Farewell to Erin.
Maybe if you said "probably" unrealistic then perhaps. Not knowing the specifics I always hesitate to use broad strokes.
ANYway... ;) The fact that you're learning a tune a week (which is fantastic, Deb!) tells me that your teacher has you in tune-learning mode, not technique mode or some such. That's a great sign of progress, if that's what she's doing.
On the other hand, it also sounds like there's not enough communication between the two of you (not that that's always necessary to learn, as so many stories attest from some of the best players!), at least for you (and her) to understand what's going on.
I can tell you that if a student tells me s/he's bored (or communicates this non-verbally) when I'm taking her through a step or a tune slowly, hoping that they'll start seeing what I'm seeing needing to be corrected, I'll sometimes rip through the thing to demonstrate graphically that they haven't gotten the thing down yet, if I think it'll help, but I'll always point out what and why I'm doing it.
There's no way for any of us to tell from postings here what is actually going on, is the bottom line. Only you and your teacher can know that.
Try talking to her about it, as Andee suggested. She probably can see that you're frustrated, but may not realize what you're frustrated about, exactly. She may be expecting that you're learning style and technique from her by listening and playing along with her (which is largely the way Irish music has always been learned and taught), and you may be wanting a more active teaching style from her.
We all learn and teach in different ways, and it's a matter of getting taught in a way you can deal with -- sometimes that means learning a new way to learn on the part of the student, as well as teachers learning a new way to teach.
If you like the teacher and you like her style and feel and technique, and if you feel you've more you can learn from her, ask her for it before abandoning ship. Most teachers are glad to oblige once they understand what you want from them.
There's two cents on THAT topic -- want two cents on getting your playing up to speed? ;)
Ok, if we are talking about a tune or two up to session speed, whatever that is, I won't profess to really knowing that, I'll agree with you Kerri. I guess I was just picturing a newish tune for Deb, and her still trying to learn it before playing as fast as would satisfy her teacher, but you're right, I don't know any of the specifics there.
Deb, I think you are getting some great advice here. Realize that it is difficult to teach an adult student because the expectations are different. Your part as an adult student is to communicate your expectations to the teacher. And to think about your expectations in a reasoned manner.
My general reaction to your lesson plan would be to ditch the book and learn tunes directly from your teacher by ear. And slow down on learning a new tune every week for now. I think what Mr. Quinn says is true. Go back and work some tunes until you and your teacher are happy with them. Mix in new tunes as you go, but really work that same few until they are at a reasonable speed and you can play them nicely. (This will be more fun for you and your teacher.)
What you learn from these tunes will transfer to other tunes in the end. And your teacher can help you build up speed.
Think of it like learning to play tennis or some other sport. One learns better if one plays with someone better than them. One has the ability to play above oneself. Now, your teacher can't play way above you, as that would be just cruel.
And don't dump your teacher. At least not yet. Work with her and communicate with her. If things don't get better, then think about finding someone new. But if you work with her you will make things better for everyone, including the next student that approaches this teacher.
And oh yeah, get a recording of the tunes that you are learning by ear. Get one slow so that you can work on the notes, and get one at medium tempo so that you can practice playing along with it. Make sure the medium tempo version is played at least twice so that you can get into the groove.
There's a certain speed you have to be able to hit in order to function well at any session, given the broad range and spectrum of regular open sessions, and we all know it. That doesn't mean we don't play faster or slower as the mood takes us, but an inability to hit the medium to fast range still means that you can't be a full participating member of any given session.
It's nice that we can bring people who either don't want to or can't play faster into the fold, and we all know by now, I'm thinking, that I'm all for being nice. But that shouldn't ever stop someone from wanting to learn to play at "session speed", no matter how gray an area that is. It's FUN to play at session speed, first off, sometimes even if the music suffers a bit. ;)
There's the rub "playing as fast as would satisfy her teacher" just sounds so terribly wrong to my ears, in so many ways. My teachers are always begging me to slow down. (I try, honestly I do, but deep down inside I'm still convinced I'm going to catch up with myself one day.)
When learning traditional music, most people try to learn from great musicians who have turned their hand to teaching, not great teachers who have turned their hand to music. It's not that often both qualities are found in traditional musicians. In classical music, where formal teaching is more established, it's normal to expect high standards from instructors. In the case of traditional music, I think it's right to cut your teacher the odd bit of slack.
Maybe it was just an off night. We all have them. The thing that makes it hard for me is walking out feeling like crap. The crap feeling hasn't gone away, so the praciting gets harder, more frustrating. I keep coming back to who am I doing this for, Me or the teacher? Lousy attitude that. It is supposed to be fun, and right now it's not. I don't feel like listening to myself nor any of the "great one's". I know that the teacher can't make me go faster, it's got to come from me. But that's kind of my point, I'm not there yet. And trying to force the issue isn't helping. I just can't play faster yet.
Can anyone tell me what speed, etc I should be doing? I know it's an indivdual deal, but some realistic yardstick might help.
Love the story stefan! And maybe that was the story of my last lesson. Just getting it over with.
Kerri, you don't need to be fired. Just get a minor job injury.
There's nothing wrong with playing slow or slowing down. I spend three days a week, making my students do things slowly so they can do them well when they do them fast. They don't get to play or dance faster until I'm satisfied that they can do what they need to do slowly, and then I ratchet it up bit by bit.
It's just that playing slowly (for a lot longer than most people have patience for) is a good way to become good at playing quickly.
By the way -- I believe that if you're doing it right, it takes about a year or two to get to the point between "knows the tunes but can't play them fast" to "playing at 'session speed' well", at least. Usually it's more like two or three years, in my experience.
Listen to some Martin Hayes. You'll feel much better. He plays brilliantly and usually fairly slowly so you can hear exactly what he's doing, and a CD never gets tired. He looooooooves to play slow.
Just beware of actually learning tunes off his CDs. He takes a lot of liberties with the melody. (Beautiful, heart-breaking, uplifting liberties, but liberties nonetheless.) Better if you figure out what he's doing and then find some other tune and apply what you've learned.
I have taught myself to play instruments, settling for a few workshops here and there. But I hit a wall with guitar, and just wanted to get better for the sake of my group. So after watching a lot of local guitarists, I started lessons from young Matt Heaton from Boston, and it is amazing how much progress you can make with even monthly lessons. He has me working with a metronome, which is the opposite of fun, but as you play a little, crank that metronome up 5 beats, play some more, crank it up another 5 beats, etc, you really can really get a lot of benefit in learning to play faster. And when you hit a wall, you often find yourself able to discover the barrier that kept you from moving quicker. I think the key is to push yourself forward to do something different. So with the right teacher, even an old dog can learn new tricks!
Listen, DebWah, it's good you're practising tunes at dirge pace, and it seems right that your teacher is fostering this. but a dirge is a dirge, and you're going to have to up the tempo. why don't you stop learning new tunes for a while, and have your teacher help you beef up one or two you've already "learned." pick one or two that you like. hell, i learn two new tunes a year, but i am always going back to already learned tunes and relearning, sculpting and adjusting the tempo. if fact, why dont you spend the next year trying to really learn the tunes you already know at a slow pace.
NO NEW TUNES FOR YOU!!!! ;)
also, sounds like you're squeezing the life outta these poor little chunes. enjoy them, my dear debWah. you know you hurt their little feelings if you only play them at dirge pace ;)
your teacher should be able to help you with this, technically and otherwise...
Conan, I completely agree with you re: difference in teaching methods, trad vs classical. That's why I asked if my expectations are at fault. I believe in cutting slack. But at the same time, shouldn't my needs as the student come into play?
Jode, funny you should mention ditching the book. That was one of my inclinations. Get the ear working more than the eyes. I'm relying on the book as a crutch.
Thanks for the input everyone. Getting another objective view always helps.
Brendan, now you have me feeling guilty hurting those puir wee tunes! You're right. No more new ones.
So, I'm ditching the book,
Going back to old tunes,
Rerouting the lessons so to speak
And for Joe, maybe I'll start wearing the odd go-go boot to the lessons.
Deb, hope I didn't come across as lecturing, maybe expectations depend on how much you're paying for these lessons. If they're expensive then the teacher should be providing an apropriate service. if it's practically a freebie....
You pay peanuts you get monkeys (not that I'm calling your teacher a monkey, but you now what I mean).
Well, there's as many opinions as there are individuals, but I'd talk to your teacher about whether she thinks ditching the book is a good idea first. If I was your teacher and you came in and said, my friends on this forum I spend time on said I should do THIS instead of what you told me to do, I'd probably tell you that perhaps then you should take lessons from them, not me.
Conan, no you didn't sound lecturish at all, I really understood what you were saying.
Talking this through with the teacher will be my first thing next lesson. I do think I'm hooked on the book and do need to lay it down, if only during practice at home. But in reality, the book has become a crutch at lessons too. Takes the pressure off of guidance and I think teaching/learning by ear. There's got to be a little bit more when teaching a beginner, than just going from tune to tune. There's more to the music than just the notes which make up the melody.
I understand that these are suggestions only. But for the tunes sake as Brendan suggests, no new ones is a fine approach right now. Speed them up, pretty them up etc.
I think interacting with the teacher may help also, with injecting a bit more enthusiasm/ interest during the lesson itself. And this does apply with Conan's cutting slack. By involving more than melody lines, the teacher may get more out of the 1/2 hour as well.
Jode, Kerri, I wasn't talking about whether learning from a book through your teacher is a good idea or not. (Personally, I'd not have used it.) I was addressing the fact that we all are telling someone else's student how to tell her teacher how to teach her without knowing all facets of the situation. Joking aside, that's both high handed and rude, and also somewhat irresponsible.
If Deb speaks to her teacher about her issues, hopefully she'll get what she needs, but she may also find out things about the situation that she may not have realized if the teacher is responsible enough to explain what she's doing. (It's possible that the teacher doesn't know what she's doing, of course, and that may be what Deb finds out.)
I mean, if you discovered by chance that Deb's teacher was Liz Carroll or Liz Knowles or someone such as that, wouldn't it suddenly change how you'd give her advice?
Well, I don't think I was being rude. If you reread my post, I start by saying that she needs to communicate with her teacher, and close with the thought that she should not throw her teacher overboard. Couched in the middle I opinionate that she should ditch the book.
Rude? Really, I think we are saying just about the same thing Zina. I am trying not to be rude to her teacher, because I probably know who she is, and do not want negative comments to get back to her. Small world.
Yup, rude. To one extent or another. Of course, we're rude to other people by merely breathing and having our own opinions. Anyway, yes, we are saying the same thing, Jode, but things on the thread were starting to get a bit out of hand, on my part as well., and I wanted to redress that.
I just read an about an old army typing course (not a likely source of inspiration I know) where you do 3 minute sessions of slow error-free keystroke practice separated by 15 minute mandatory rest periods. At the end of the day you can supposedly type accurately at 25 wpm.
I'm not likely to be taking this course any time soon but the point is that slow practice can be very efficient way to learn because you don't learn a bunch of errors. However, it's also very difficult and, frankly, boring. Most people can't do it for very long before they get bored and sloppy or fall into a homicidal rage, etc. If you bored you are probably making errors which defeats the purpose.
I think the teacher here had good intentions but had maybe lost the plot a bit with the slow practice: You have to keep it short.
I wouldn't want her to get bad feelings as well Jode. She a fine teacher and a fine fiddler, it just seems that in the past couple of months, things have become well, boring. And maybe the operative word there is "seems". I can't help thinking that playing slowly would get boring for the teacher. But you have to start somewhere.
I also feel she would be open to a discussion. Her enjoyment /interest in the music is as it always was. I can feel her enthusiasm when she plays. Unfortunately, I'm not much fun to play with yet.
OK, so said teacher can kick me in the behind for telling them their business, and I apologize directly if they think I am being rude.
However, if I were in Debwah's shoes, that is what I would do. And if it were one of those individuals that you mention Zina, I would be further motivated to learn tunes directly from them!!!
You mean besides the fact that you've posted your frustrations on a public board, and that neither of you (or me, for that matter) make any secret of who you are and where you live? *grin* Worth remembering that lots of people read this site without ever letting on they do, and they will often tell folks who are mentioned on the board that they were, in fact, mentioned... ;)
I am reticent to directly criticise a teacher based on an internet posting, because I don't really know the teacher or the situation, being completely dependent on your post for making an assessment of the situation. If I had you as a student in my own studio it would take me at least a few weeks of such personal contact to home in on you (and you me), thus Zina has a valid point.
However, there are also many valid counterpoints, so I'll press on regardless:
It appears to me, strictly from what you've said, that you have a fairly classic variety of bad teacher on your hands, the kind that doesn't actually know how to *teach,* so they fall back on working through tunes and a book, simply because they don't know what else to do. Teaching is a skill and an art apart from musicianship. In fact, many rather poor musicians are some of the finest teachers, especially for beginners and intermediates. The dictum that "Those who can't do, teach," ignores the fact that teaching is what they can *do.*
This can be reinforced in the field of Irish music by the tradition of picking things up by "osmosis," but you don't need to pay a teacher for that, simply hang out with a lot of fiddlers, which can not only be instructive, but fun, not to mention free (although standing the odd beer or three might be appreciated). You clearly expect, and have the right to expect, someting a bit more from a paid teacher, because you are a *customer* and should never loose sight of that fact. The customer isn't always right, especially a student, but the customer is certainly always the ultimate arbiter of whether or not they are getting what they want, and shouldn't the least bit reticent about shopping around for the best "product."
But the problem isn't innate to Irish music, in fact I think it's probably more prevelant in the classical field (if only because they make it up in volume) where there are a godzillion 'teachers' who can't do anything more than run a student throught piece after piece, resulting in the sort of 'musician' who has been taking lessons for ten years and still feels like he doesn't know how to play. And he's right, because he's never actually been taught *how to play,* and being taught how to practice is even rarer. This is the field from which future teachers are taken, and if they've never been taught how to play it's a bit much to expect that they've been taught how to teach playing.
Patience, as mentioned in this thread and others, is also the primary virtue of the teacher. It is innate in teaching that you are going to be dealing with people who don't know/can't do (two different things) whatever it is they're trying to learn, otherwise they wouldn't need a teacher, now would they? A teacher not prepared to deal with this simply shouldn't be teaching, and I get the impression that your teacher is (which is fairly common) doing it for the money, because that's what he can do and it beats working at Wal-Mart. Which is probably true for the teacher, but a bit hard on the students.
Of course the best teachers do it because they actually love teaching. They certainly take the money, because without it they can't continue to teach (rent needs to paid, food needs to be eaten, instruments and learning tools need to be purchased, etc.), but it's the music and the teaching that matters, not the money. The money is merely the means to the end, and not, as it is commonly put, "making a living." They live to play and teach. As Thoreau put it, 'A poet should live off his poetry, as a steam planer is fired from it's own shavings.'
Just a couple of days ago I had a young, beginning guitar student come to me who had just discovered, for the first time, tab sites on the internet and wanted to know if he could teach himself from these sites. Certainly, I said, but. . .what I am here for is to teach you *how* to play the tab. The tab shows you *what* to play, my job is to teach you how to play it, so that you can, ultimately, teach yourself particular songs or tunes. My job is to make myself redundant, and to do so as quickly and painlessly for *you* as we are both capable of.
Teaching tunes and songs is not teaching how to play. Lessons should be about technique, *applied* to tunes, which the student then goes home and practices, and so lessons should also be about the *techniques* of practicing. Playing tunes is not practicing. It is, as legendary guitarist Tommy Tedisco likes to put it, 'rehersal.' Rehersal is polishing a tune for performance. Practice is about technique. You can play tunes over and over, for years and years, and not make one whit of progress as a musician. In fact, this is common. As Andee says lessons should have a laser focus, then you practice that laser focus, *then* you play a tune, with all the benefits derived from that laser focus properly applied.
A tune a week is much, much too fast a pace for learning technique. You're just learning tunes, which you can pick up on your own without paying a teacher (there's nothing wrong with paying someone to teach you tunes if that's what you want, but that isn't a *music* lesson). A teacher should be using a handful of tunes, which *you* like, as a base for teaching the techniques of playing, and then moving on to another tune to show how that technique can be applied generically, so that the teacher becomes redundant, because you've learned *how to play.* A tune a month would be more like it, and wring the heck out of each tune (nothing wrong with playing more tunes than that, for pleasure, but that's playing, not practicing and learning).
As to your specific complaint about slow playing, Kerri is right, you should practice slowly (and she has been the specific web target of my saying "slow down!" more than once), but I don't feel that that is what applies to the current situation. 'Slow' is relative to the particular player, and only to the particular player, and if, after a year, you are complaining that you are still playing at the same slow speed I think your feelings are justified.
Playing fast is something that can be taught, and indeed *should* be taught, because fast playing is a)something you need to learn and you only learn what you practice; and b)because fast playing is something that really "just comes" from the application of correct technique. Basic technique. The kind that should begin to be taught from lesson one, both in the technique of playing and the technique of practicing (working a new tune up to speed is a process, and you should be taught that process, from the very beginning).
If you still *can't* play faster than you could six months ago, you aren't being taught technique properly either. 'Fast' for you might not be session speed, but it should certainly be significantly fast*er*. Learning a new tune every week is keeping you in perpetual beginner mode, just having to learn a new sequence of notes all the time, without any time for work being done on how to play them properly (or even simply get familiar with them, so you aren't even getting much rehersal); and at speed, which is what a *lesson* should be about and what you should be *practicing.*
The paradox is that you need to practice slowly to be fast, but you need to apply the right definition of 'slow' to where you are, and take active steps in raising the bar of what is 'slow' for you, to the point where it is what other people call 'fast.'
And this is the proper function of the metronome in practice. To force a pace that is the proper amount of *slow* to improve, so that you can crank the setting up a bit because that new, faster setting is your new 'slow.' Most people set it fast and try to 'race to keep up' with it. All this teaches you is how to play sloppily and badly, without any technique at all.
And thus, ultimately, slowly, because speed comes from the application of proper technique, founded on fundmental principles that transcend any particular intrument (and even music), such as the principles of relaxation and least motion. Those musicians who 'make it look easy' do so because they have, in fact, learned the easy way of doing it, not because they have some special sort of super DNA or something that makes things that are innately hard easier. They 'cheat.'
This can be learned, and thus taught, and what you should be expecting from your teacher.
Again, you are the customer. Don't be afraid to shop around for a better teacher, just like you would for a TV set. Some teachers simply aren't very good with beginners, even though they may be the best master class teachers in the world, just as some of the finest musicians in the world are lost when given a master class, but excel with beginners (although I think this is less common. Good players tend to lose their "beginner's mind" and lose their ability to relate to beginners. Thus the best teacher for a beginner often isn't one of the front rank of players). You'll probably even find you'll need at least three or four over the course of your lifetime, each bringing something else to you, and the best teachers know this, take it into account, and will even refer you to another teacher when the time is right.
Here are a couple of sites I think you should have a look at. They aren't about fiddle, but if you read them and think about them they'll give you some idea of what two, really fine teachers think about what constitues really fine teaching, as well as really fine learning:
Then have that chat with your teacher. You're not supposed to be fun to play with. You're supposed to fun to *teach* (which is at least as much your teacher's issue as yours, and in my opinion as a teacher a lot more) and you must certainly have a certain kind of fun (at least of the sort that a marathon runner feels he is having) from learning as well.
"Unfortunately, I'm not much fun to play with yet."
You're not supposed to be fun to play with, exactly. It's what happens when you have students. Any teacher worth anything knows that. Don't let your perceived shortcomings keep you from playing with whoever will play with you, or learning from whoever will teach you!
I have to say, Zina, I don't agree that it's rude or disrespectful to take an active role in your music lessons any more than it would be rude and disrespectful to inform my doctor I'd rather take licorice tea than antibiotics for my sore throat. Just as I have a right to choose what I put in my body, I also have the right to choose what I put into my mind, and if a teacher isn't excited as a kid in a candy store that I *care* what goes into my mind, I have the wrong teacher.
Then again, I am EXTREMELY picky, as far as being educated is concerned. The pablum IV drip method of passive information acceptance never quite cut it for me.
He gives some great advice and definations about appropriate learning speed. Also makes some very thoughtful comparisons between style and technique and their importance.
Yeah, I like Larry's site a lot too. Not sure why I didn't post a link to it this time. Probably because I was focusing on the whole student/teacher relationship thingy, rather than on learning fiddle generically.
Yeah, I like Larry's site a lot too. Not sure why I didn't post a link to it. Probably because I was focusing on the teacher/student thing, rather than generically on learning.
Kerri, I wasn't saying it's rude or disrespectful for anyone to take an active hand in their lessons, learning, teaching, or otherwise. Might want to reread my posts, there, ducks.
Thanks all for opinions, suggestions et al. Thanks also for the links. Will read them this eve.
Lest anyone has the impression that I feel my teacher is not a good one, I apologize. The only frame of reference I have for lessons is that of my grade school violin lessons, taken in a public school with several other students. I have no other experience with private lessons. This is why I asked if I am expecting too much. We won’t discuss how long ago that was, suffice to say, it was a while back. As an adult, my expectations of the teacher vs student, may need adjustment. Ultimately, I need to get the lessons back on a track that work for me. I take responsibility for that. It would be easier all around to quit or look for another teacher. I don't think it necessary at this time. What works for 1 student may not work for another. I need to find what works for me, then discuss that with my teacher. Your suggestions help with that.
"I was addressing the fact that we all are telling someone else's student how to tell her teacher how to teach her... that's both high handed and rude, and also somewhat irresponsible."
(Jode, "Rude!!??")
"Yup, rude."
You might want to reread your own posts before suggesting I reread your posts.
I don't think I've done any more than suggest it's OK to clue your teacher in to what it is you'd like to learn, and how. If that's high handed and rude... Or is it NOT rude and disrespectful... hang on now, I'm completely lost.
I am three years down the road with the fiddle and started out with the Cranitch tutor. I think it's great for the beginner, especially the adult beginner, because there is ample focus on pulse and rhythm. Generally speaking, I find that Matt hasn't written in a ton of slurs, perhaps in an effort to ensure that the beat is heard rather than muddied. Matt's book was great for me because it taught me to how to listen for the pulse in a tune and understand certain ways of marking the rhythm with my bow.
In any event, I find that bowing the tunes the way Matt suggests amply illustrates how they should come across (rhythmically speaking) and they work well at a moderate pace. But those bowings become increasingly difficult for me as I start speeding it up. It seems to work for Matt, but not for me, and maybe not for you either. Like you, I was having a lot of trouble with Matt's bowings at session speed. (Prime example: The Pretty Girls of Mayo - HOW does he do it using those bowings? He certainly has a dexterous right hand anyway.)
So by the time I hit the Wheels of the World I decided to try out something else and got some Kevin Burke bowings from one of his videos. The reasons why Kevin and Matt are very different fiddlers couldn't have been more obvious. Kevin is the antithesis of Matt, using long, fluid bows and much slurring. The pulse comes not so much from changing bow directions (as is generally the case with Matt) as increasing the speed of the bow through the beat, even when the bow continues travelling in the same direction. Now Burke's bowings are not easily emulated either but it demonstrated to me very clearly that there is more than one way of getting the pulse out of a tune. It also taught me not to rely on a fixed bowing pattern which, unfortunately, is the tendency if you study only one set of bowing transcriptions.
I think that your teacher, by playing too quickly, might be forcing you (intentionally or not) to rethink your bowings. A question for you: if you play one of your earlier Cranitch tunes, say the Rose in the Heather, and you use an up-bow where Cranitch indicates a down-bow, do you get derailed? If so, it is likely that you wont be able to bow your way out of a corner when the tune is going at a quicker pace. In that case, you might benefit by having a look at someone elses bowings, maybe even those of your teacher! (I would find it very strange if she used Matt's bowings exclusively). Or invent your own - an exercise that Matt readily encourages in his book.
It might be interesting to consider how one goes about learning Indian music at this point in the "lessons" argument. If you want to play sitar, you have to go live at the master sitar-player's house and cook and clean for him -- be his servant. You might go for days with no mention of the music, or maybe even weeks. Then, while you helping him find his jacket -- he diddles some rhythms verbally for you. Then you wait for the next lesson. No wonder you can't play the feckin thing until you've been reincarnated at least 7 times.
Nice essay there, Kevin. Saved me from spouting off, too, because you've said very well the same things I'd bring up, based on my own years as a music teacher. Said it better than I could.
The only thing I'd add is that sometimes a student lasers in on the wrong aspect of a lesson. For some reason, teenage boys learning rock guitar are typically more interested in amassing tunes and lead breaks than they are learning to play music. If you hang too long on one tune, their attention wanes. Or, contrarily, they'll lock onto one cool riff for weeks on end, driven to play it exactly the same way every time (just like they hear it on MTV), and it's impossible to nudge them onto something new.
In Deb's situation, she's clearly saying she wants something different than what she's getting, so I doubt the above problem is what's happening here. But it still wouldn't hurt to clarify her expectations and see if they align with her teacher's. It could be that her teacher thinks that they *are* working on technique (just couched in a new tune a week--which strikes me as a less than effective strategy), but Deb is focused more on the tunes themselves and missing the bigger lesson. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.
Of course, part of the problem is that Deb may not know exactly what to ask for, what she needs to learn at this stage in her musical development. So I'd recommend telling your teacher what you're interested in improving, and also asking her what she thinks your priority should be.
Oh, and bear in mind that it takes at least 20 years on fiddle before anything starts to sound like you want it to.
The teachers I've chosen usually start things off by *asking* me what I'd like to learn, and how, opening the door for me to say things like "I prefer learning by ear" or "I really like to get into a single tune for hours on end" or "I would like to spend a whole hour working on rolls". None of my teachers have reacted as though I've slapped them with a glove, but I suppose that's more because of the teachers I've chosen. They all nurture high-handed rudeness in their students.
Some thoughts from a full time trad music teacher -
The "traditonal" way to teach has tended to be through teaching tunes. From the reading I have done on this, however, a tune a week would be a lot to expect, as you would not be getting the style and stuff very well sorted. I'm not saying this is a good or bad way to teach - just the traditional one.
I believe that playing stuff like scales and excercises will really speed up your progress, and a creative teacher can give you plenty of this to do, make it fun and help you see it's relevance.
Teachers get stuck sometimes, too, just like students - especially if they're not very experienced at teaching. I can remember this happening to me a lot in the earlier years. I was very motivated to find better and better ways to teach, so now it only happens rarely.
The worst kind of teacher, IMHO, just keeps handing out new tunes but never goes into much depth with them. I would expect my pupils to have a number of tunes and exercises on the go at any one time - and we might work on some of them for months on end, depending on their difficulty.
Playing slow is the best way to give yourself a chance to build up good patterns rather than bad ones. However, it is easy to get stuck in slowsville. I try to play at a variety of speeds with my pupils, and encourage them to learn to use a metronome to build speeds gradually. So we play new/difficult stuff slowly, but sometimes let rip together on stuff they can do better - sometimes they can keep up, sometimes they just get a good look at what they should be trying for!
If you can discuss things with your teacher, that may help. However, many teachers can only do what works for them - and so they may be ther wrong teacher for some pupils. If you have the luxury of being able to shop around, it might be a good idea.
Oh. My. God. 7 reincarnations or 20 years?? Geez! Here I was thinking I only had 6,900 rolls to do for a good one! Now I'm looking at years and reincarnations. Good Yard stick though!
Will yeah, it's hard to know exactly what to ask for, and a lot easier to just feel frustrated. I have a clearer head than I did this am. That helps a lot. There's always more than 1 way to get to the same destination. Having a better view of the map will help.
When I give private lessons, I consider each tune for the challenges it introduces based on the student's level and ability. I don't move on to another tune until I feel the student has gained an understanding of the challenges. Then I try to find a tune that reinforces and adds to what we've already covered, but at the same time introduces new challenges as well. I'm always hoping my students come away with more understanding than how many tunes they can “play.” After all… they will be adding tunes for the rest of their lives.
At the weeklong music camp I teach at every summer, I have co-taught with folks like Grey Larson and John Skelton. One of the chronic complaints from students was that there weren't enough tunes taught in the course of the classes. I decided to supplement the flute class with a repertoire workshop where only tunes were taught and there would be no discussion of technique. This seemed extremely successful and satisfied the appetite for learning tunes from the students.
It's difficult to balance between tunes and technique when you're giving private lessons, so what I do is ask my students to listen to recordings and go to sessions and make a list of tunes you'd like to learn. Then continue listening while you're working on technique. I'm hoping this will provide them with a head start for learning new tunes later when they've mastered more skills, but at the same time allow them to concentrate working on a small number of tunes for technique learning purposes.
Am kicking myself now by the way. Last week I happened to get to the Celtic Fiddle Festival concert. Mr. Burke had one of his videos available. I just bought his music. Shameful, missed opportunity. My mom even advised me to get that! Always listen to Mom.
Don't miss them, CFF that is. The performance was fabulous.
I'm sure I can Kerri. Just a missed opportunity. And I'd rather work through some of the speed/bowing etc. with my tutor. Somehow, I can see myself getting really botched up while watching Burke, following Cranitch and studying with my tutor. That might be a triple crown in some circles, but a bit too much for this grey mare!
Fair enough. The huge advantage you have with a teacher is you can ask it questions and get a 3 dimensional viewing of what's really going on. (When Kevin Burke puts out a digital interactive holographic instruction DVD, all fiddle teachers everywhere will find themselves eating out of garbage cans.)
Hey Debwah,
have you now got those go-go boots? I've been looking under the stairs and everywhere for them. Aye let's do the international band with Gunther on the whistle, Uzma on the spoons, Enzo on fiddle, Liu Qiang on guitar etc etc.
I am very much a beginning fiddler, having only been trying to learn since the first week of January. No lessons, just going off instructional materials. In the last six weeks or so I was encouraged by a few (better!) players I know to play along with them at some nursing homes on the weekends leading up to St. Patrick's day. I knew I couldn't play at all (you can imagine how bad I am) but they said, who cares, just stay on the right note anyway and the audience is not going to be terribly critical. So I agreed, but for the last month I have been learning lots of tunes so as to be able to play along. I found that even trying hard I couldn't play many of the tunes at full speed anyway, except polkas.
The thing is, I found the whole experience incredibly frustrating because I was spending all my time learning sets of tunes and trying to get them up to speed, with no time to explore the tunes rhythmically, to try variations in bowing, to experiment with ornamentation, to really learn the tune. No time to focus on technique. I began to get the impression that I could go on like that for twenty years and never get a whole lot better, and play on the nursing home circuit forever, so to speak.
So I learned nothing. (Except maybe just got to know the fingerboard & pitch a little better). Or rather, I learned that what your teacher is doing sounds stupid to me. I'm guessing that you shouldn't be trying to learn a tune a week until you make some real technical strides and feel happier about your playing. But more importantly, going through a book is horrible! I did that in piano lessons as a kid years ago and it ruined piano for me. You are not going to like every tune in the book and having to work on tunes you don't like won't make as as happy or help you to learn as well as if you played only tunes you like. The great thing about music is to play tunes you like the way you like to play them (usually influenced by thw way some really great players play them), not to be an organ- grinder. So I agree with KFG 100%.
The Sligo Fiddler Michael Gorman, who learned from Jamesy Gannon, who taught Michael Coleman, said (I think on Folktrax 069) that it took him six months to get down his first tune, Farrel Gara. I got the impression from what he said that Gannon said something like this: here's the tune, here's how I play it, now come back to me when you can do it like I can. And Gorman, who was just a servant boy at the time, worked at the tune for six months until he got it down. The other thing he did for those six months was go rambling and listen to Gannon, Coleman, McDemott and other fiddlers play several nights a week! That's it--listening, and one tune, for six months.
Now that might have been exaggeration on Gorman's part, but at least it illustrates the opposite alternative from what your teaching is doing (sounds like you're both very frustrated, SO IT'S NOT WORKING). the point is that if you want to get truly good at fiddle, you will have to focus on technique and on learning ONE TUNE until you can play it the way you like it, and that is only possible by NOT TRYING TO PLAY IT THE SAME WAY EACH TIME (at least after you get down basic fingering and rythmic bowing), but by treating the tune as something to explore and understand and love, not something to memorize.
When I heard Gorman's recording 3 days ago I realized why I was getting frustrated. Now I really like (very much) the Ballydesmond Polkas as played on The Star Above the Garter, and they are simple tunes (polkas), and I have been wanting to learn them, but they are not one of the sets we were playing for the nursing homes. Conversely, some of the tunes we WERE playing I am not all that enthusiastic about. So now that the nursing-home circuit is ending it's my intention to follow Gorman's advice. I'm going to slow down the Ballydesmonds and listen and practice until I can play along with Julia and Denis, the way they play it, if not at full speed then at least at 80% or so. I am going to learn ONE of the polkas at a time, starting with Ballydesmond #2 because it seems easiest to me. (I'll probably continue to play other tunes I've been learning as I get the urge, but I am going to focus on the Ballydesmonds to learn whatever technique I can from those tunes.) Then I am going to pick a couple of jigs I really love, maybe Sean Ryan's as played by Paddy Canny and P.J. Hayes, or maybe by Kevin Burke and Martin Hayes, or maybe Paddy Fahey's played by Martin Byrnes, and learn a jig set the same way. And then I am going to learn a hornpipe set, and then a reel set. And then maybe a slip-jig set and a slide set. Picking only tunes that I already REALLY LOVE from listening to them, and trying to play them the way some of my heroes did or do.
Now I don't know if I'll stick to the plan 100% (though I hope I will!) as I will probably try to join a session sometime soon, and will have to learn other tunes. But I will go only to listen-- maybe play one set, or two at most, each night. But I don't think it's a bad plan, and it's a lot better then going through a book-any book-and learning to play every single tune at a rate not permitting a focus on technique.
Sorry to yammer on like this so long, what I have to say is not worth much because I don't know how it's done yet, but I thought you should hear what Gorman said anyway. Talk to your teacher! Maybe you can work something out!
After reading, thinking etc. it seems to me that the issue is one of lack of communication on my part. I get the feeling as an adult I should be taking a more active role. I assumed the course of the lessons was a defined one. I'm not paying for psychic services, unless I speak up, no one would know if I am frustrated or not.
Who knows, going with the flow may be the norm here. In my frustration, I may have given the impression that this teacher is not a decent one. Bad on my part.
Last Fridays fun was most probably the boot I needed to reevaluate what works/doesn't work for me. The suggestions here have been a help to better identify possibilities with which I will discuss with my tutor.
Thanks everyone, Deb.
What to expect from lessons??
What to expect from lessons??
Hi all!
Had a bad lesson last Friday and am wondering what I should expect. Thought I would throw this out to see if I am expecting too much from the teacher.
Have been taking lessons solidly for about a year now. Have picked up some technique, style etc. I have been working through Matt Cranitch’s book with the teacher. Have been improving, can even feel this for myself as opposed to being told. However, I am still playing slowly. Going methodically through tunes at a rate of about a tune a week. I add this as for the few months, that’s all I’ve been doing. Each week a new tune. We play it through and go on to the next. Each tune played slowly.
Last Fri. the teacher was tired (I can relate) and had previously mentioned how boring it is to play this stuff slowly. We started playing, ..way too fast for me. I lost my place of course, tried again. And so on. In a sense, I think the teacher, in an effort to relieve her boredom and stay awake, played at her speed. I finally stopped and indicated that the teacher was going too fast. So of course, starting again but this time, ridiculously slowly. At this point I’m shot, just waiting to get out of there as was the teacher.
My question is this, What should I expect from lessons? Is there more to teaching this stuff than working through a tune book? Although Cranitch does have valuable information in his book, the bulk of it is tunes. But having that extra hand keeping track of mistakes, showing examples, coming up with exercises for the ornaments, etc. all help. Or am I expecting more than the average bear. My thoughts, this is a lesson, Not a session!
Thanks in advance for any input.
Deb.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
You haven't said if your teacher is a trad musician or if working through the book was your idea or her's? I thought that a requirement for a good teacher(of anything)was a bit of patience. By all means, encourage the student to work hard and do better but to do so at a realistic pace.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Anyway, I've always found myself that learning a instrument is a case of "three steps forward, two steps(sometimes more
) back". I'm still like that sometimes.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: What to expect from lessons??
John, she is a trad musician, and it was her suggestion to start with the Cranitch book. I certainly don't find any problem with the book. Actually, reading his notes has been beneficial. I've brought up a few of his points during lessons for an extra few point, things she hadn't been aware of. It just seems as though this has become a tune learning session as opposed to learning the technique, style etc. and that is the problem I have right now. My teacher has become much busier since I've started, hence being tired.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Hi Deb. I've been taking lessons from the same teacher for *8* years now, so I know a bit about making lessons work for me. but it took some time, and I imagine the teacher/student dynamic is different in each individual situation.
That being said, I think it was very unprofessional of your teacher to profess boredom!! Admitting to being tired is ok, we all get tired, but that alone should not necessarily ruin the lesson. My teacher once said to me after playing a tune a bazillion times through for the second lesson in a row. "Don't worry, I never get tired of hearing a great tune!" That put me at ease and let me know she was not bored or frustrated with me.
Also, I think a tune a week is good if you can go home and do your best to play it over and over and get to know it thoroughly. I found that with my teacher, while it *seemed* to be about learning tunes only, learning tecnique was in there too.
Lately, however, I realized I had plenty of tunes and needed to work on tecnique only. I had to let my teacher know this is what I needed. Ask and you shall receive. I think she was pleased at my seriousness to learn and get better even when no new tunes were involved. So I've been coming to her with themes for my lessons. For example I might say, "For the next few weeks, we've got to work on my bowing wrist" or " I feel my jigs aren't "jiggy" enough. Let's just go over jjigs for the next few weeks and figure out how I can make them better."
A good teacher should always be willing to learn how to become a better teacher through her/his students. Talk to your teacher and figure out how you can work on it together. Let me know what happens!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Andee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Deb, express yourself to your teacher. She probably feels she's accomplished quite a bit if she's gotten one tune into you a week. I think that's normal in trad. Every master class or lesson I've ever taken involves learning a tune and then working in some technique. (Disclaimer: we're talking about a dozen or so, not thousands).
If you're a beginner, there probably isn't time to work in the technique part in your allotted hour, or whatever it is. So what you ought to do is: Take the tune you've been taught one week, practice your arse off all week until your fingers have absolutely no trouble with the notes, and tell your teacher you'd like to spend the first ten or fifteen minutes of each lesson reviewing the tune from the week before, but working in a few ideas for bowing, ornaments, and dynamics.
Don't forget to practice, either. If you want to learn fiddle by playing an hour a week it's going to take you 200 years to get any good. If you're not practicing, I guarantee your teacher is sitting there thinking "Dear god, this is hopeless. Why do I bother?" Which may or may not contribute to her tiredness.
Personally, I only had three or four lessons with an actual "teacher", at the very start. Between each lesson I must have practiced 5 hours a day at least, sometimes more. You should have SEEN how excited she was every time I turned up on her doorstep.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Would have thought it beneficial to stay with the same 2 or 3 tunes over and over again until you've mastered them and the techniques before moving on to the next 2 or 3.
Leastways that's how i did it on the whistle.
bodhr`n was different for me. I found i had a natural talent for playing out of rhythm and successfully upsetting the musos so I don't have to practice it.
Joe
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Joe Quinn
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Kerri, looks like you and I are in agreement pretty much, except I do think an hour is plenty of time to focus on tecnique in addition to tunes. My lessons are only a half hour and we do that. It just takes a laser focus, and like you said *loads* of practice throughout the week!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Andee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Practice is the key in anything. That said, I actually do practice. No where near 5hrs a day though. Don't have that kind of time left after work. I practice about an hour a day. She's tired due to going back to school, back to sessions and playing more gigs. And somewhere in all that, she does have her family.
I can imagine the "Oh for the love of God" kind of feeling if the student wasn't getting anywhere. My skill level has increased. I'm just not a the point of playing at 100% speed yet. This was the problem at last lesson. My feeling at this point is that I'm the one paying for a lesson, not paying to entertain the teacher.
Joe, you and I really should get together for that international band!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Right, well that's good to hear, Deb. An hour a day is plenty. I was in an ideal situation - tiny little island in the Pacific with no neighbours and nothing to do all day but walk the dog. The five-hours-a-day thing is only possible when I'm unemployed.
(Why do you think I'm trying so hard to get fired!)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Hmmm. Tough one, Deb. Being a teacher myself and having led a tune learning session for a few years, I can think of a jillion things that could come down on some kind of fault on either side of the fence. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as it usually is.
For one, it's worth knowing that among quite a few players, it's expected that the teacher does not teach you to play a tune up to speed, they only teach you the tune and whatever points of technique or whatever they want you to learn -- it's up to the student to take it home and get the thing up to speed.
Oh hell, hang on, I have to go take care of some business here, I'll come back in a bit, Deb!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Deb, if your teacher expects you to play anywhere *near* session speed after only a year of lessons that is completely and unforgiveably unrealistic!
Maybe it would be good to have a few lessons with someone else to see if maybe you are more compatable with a different teacher?
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Andee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Oh hi Zina!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Andee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Hiya! Back in a bit --
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
You know, sometimes even with a great teacher and a willing and conscientous student, there will still be a few "bad lesson" days. As long as it doesn't become too frequent, it's ok.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Andee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
There are lots of different dynamics involved in lessons. I agree the teacher should adapt to the needs of the student, as long as the student is willing to push themselves to progress. And that's the real key. Not only motivates the student but the teacher as well.
Like you folks have pointed out, practice is the real key.
As far as focusing on teaching tunes or working more on technique, as long as I have a recording, I can always learn the tune on my own. Teach me how to rip it apart and put it back together with the proper intonation, rhythm and ornamentation.
Our school tries very hard to do both. We begin each 10 week session by giving out a CD with about a dozen tunes we'll learn that term. We encourage everyone to listen to the tunes over and over until ythey can diddley them in their sleep.
It is sometimes hard to get past just teaching the tunes to the beginner classes but, in the intermediate and advanced classed we're really able to get into the bones of it.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: What to expect from lessons??
By the way, I should have mentioned I think it was inconsiderate of your teacher to leave you in the dust like that. You should tell her nicely if she doesn't feel up to giving you a lesson it's OK for her to call you ahead of time and cancel. You'd be better off using that time to practice on your own.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Andee,
Not sure I can completely agree when you say,
"if your teacher expects you to play anywhere *near* session speed after only a year of lessons that is completely and unforgiveably unrealistic!"
I think there are a lot of factors involved there. The student's background, amount of practice time, amount of "listening" time, to name but a few. How well they know the specific tune being played, are we talking about the Britches polka or Farewell to Erin.
Maybe if you said "probably" unrealistic then perhaps. Not knowing the specifics I always hesitate to use broad strokes.
BTW - just how close to session speed is *near*?
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: What to expect from lessons??
OK off the coversation - but funny.....
****
My nan willl play a tune, and play it wayyyy too fast for me.....
If I say "Nans - slow it down a little"
Her reply: "Sorry pet I'm only trying to get this over and done with!!!!"
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Is there really such a thing as "session speed"?
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
lol stefan
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
ANYway... ;) The fact that you're learning a tune a week (which is fantastic, Deb!) tells me that your teacher has you in tune-learning mode, not technique mode or some such. That's a great sign of progress, if that's what she's doing.
On the other hand, it also sounds like there's not enough communication between the two of you (not that that's always necessary to learn, as so many stories attest from some of the best players!), at least for you (and her) to understand what's going on.
I can tell you that if a student tells me s/he's bored (or communicates this non-verbally) when I'm taking her through a step or a tune slowly, hoping that they'll start seeing what I'm seeing needing to be corrected, I'll sometimes rip through the thing to demonstrate graphically that they haven't gotten the thing down yet, if I think it'll help, but I'll always point out what and why I'm doing it.
There's no way for any of us to tell from postings here what is actually going on, is the bottom line. Only you and your teacher can know that.
Try talking to her about it, as Andee suggested. She probably can see that you're frustrated, but may not realize what you're frustrated about, exactly. She may be expecting that you're learning style and technique from her by listening and playing along with her (which is largely the way Irish music has always been learned and taught), and you may be wanting a more active teaching style from her.
We all learn and teach in different ways, and it's a matter of getting taught in a way you can deal with -- sometimes that means learning a new way to learn on the part of the student, as well as teachers learning a new way to teach.
If you like the teacher and you like her style and feel and technique, and if you feel you've more you can learn from her, ask her for it before abandoning ship. Most teachers are glad to oblige once they understand what you want from them.
There's two cents on THAT topic -- want two cents on getting your playing up to speed? ;)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Ok, if we are talking about a tune or two up to session speed, whatever that is, I won't profess to really knowing that, I'll agree with you Kerri. I guess I was just picturing a newish tune for Deb, and her still trying to learn it before playing as fast as would satisfy her teacher, but you're right, I don't know any of the specifics there.
off to work for me now.....
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Andee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Deb, I think you are getting some great advice here. Realize that it is difficult to teach an adult student because the expectations are different. Your part as an adult student is to communicate your expectations to the teacher. And to think about your expectations in a reasoned manner.
My general reaction to your lesson plan would be to ditch the book and learn tunes directly from your teacher by ear. And slow down on learning a new tune every week for now. I think what Mr. Quinn says is true. Go back and work some tunes until you and your teacher are happy with them. Mix in new tunes as you go, but really work that same few until they are at a reasonable speed and you can play them nicely. (This will be more fun for you and your teacher.)
What you learn from these tunes will transfer to other tunes in the end. And your teacher can help you build up speed.
Think of it like learning to play tennis or some other sport. One learns better if one plays with someone better than them. One has the ability to play above oneself. Now, your teacher can't play way above you, as that would be just cruel.
And don't dump your teacher. At least not yet. Work with her and communicate with her. If things don't get better, then think about finding someone new. But if you work with her you will make things better for everyone, including the next student that approaches this teacher.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Jode
Re: What to expect from lessons??
And oh yeah, get a recording of the tunes that you are learning by ear. Get one slow so that you can work on the notes, and get one at medium tempo so that you can practice playing along with it. Make sure the medium tempo version is played at least twice so that you can get into the groove.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Jode
RE: speed
There's a certain speed you have to be able to hit in order to function well at any session, given the broad range and spectrum of regular open sessions, and we all know it. That doesn't mean we don't play faster or slower as the mood takes us, but an inability to hit the medium to fast range still means that you can't be a full participating member of any given session.
It's nice that we can bring people who either don't want to or can't play faster into the fold, and we all know by now, I'm thinking, that I'm all for being nice. But that shouldn't ever stop someone from wanting to learn to play at "session speed", no matter how gray an area that is. It's FUN to play at session speed, first off, sometimes even if the music suffers a bit. ;)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
There's the rub "playing as fast as would satisfy her teacher" just sounds so terribly wrong to my ears, in so many ways. My teachers are always begging me to slow down. (I try, honestly I do, but deep down inside I'm still convinced I'm going to catch up with myself one day.)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
When learning traditional music, most people try to learn from great musicians who have turned their hand to teaching, not great teachers who have turned their hand to music. It's not that often both qualities are found in traditional musicians. In classical music, where formal teaching is more established, it's normal to expect high standards from instructors. In the case of traditional music, I think it's right to cut your teacher the odd bit of slack.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Maybe it was just an off night. We all have them. The thing that makes it hard for me is walking out feeling like crap. The crap feeling hasn't gone away, so the praciting gets harder, more frustrating. I keep coming back to who am I doing this for, Me or the teacher? Lousy attitude that. It is supposed to be fun, and right now it's not. I don't feel like listening to myself nor any of the "great one's". I know that the teacher can't make me go faster, it's got to come from me. But that's kind of my point, I'm not there yet. And trying to force the issue isn't helping. I just can't play faster yet.
Can anyone tell me what speed, etc I should be doing? I know it's an indivdual deal, but some realistic yardstick might help.
Love the story stefan! And maybe that was the story of my last lesson. Just getting it over with.
Kerri, you don't need to be fired. Just get a minor job injury.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
There's nothing wrong with playing slow or slowing down. I spend three days a week, making my students do things slowly so they can do them well when they do them fast. They don't get to play or dance faster until I'm satisfied that they can do what they need to do slowly, and then I ratchet it up bit by bit.
It's just that playing slowly (for a lot longer than most people have patience for) is a good way to become good at playing quickly.
By the way -- I believe that if you're doing it right, it takes about a year or two to get to the point between "knows the tunes but can't play them fast" to "playing at 'session speed' well", at least. Usually it's more like two or three years, in my experience.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
"Can anyone tell me what speed, etc I should be doing? I know it's an indivdual deal, but some realistic yardstick might help. "
Not without hearing you play in person. There's no realistic yardstick that's general enough to post here, I'm thinking.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I have an impending sense of oncoming metronomish speak.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Jode
Re: What to expect from lessons??
900 BPM
(900 Bodhran's per mile)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Not a primrose path, then...
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Listen to some Martin Hayes. You'll feel much better. He plays brilliantly and usually fairly slowly so you can hear exactly what he's doing, and a CD never gets tired. He looooooooves to play slow.
Just beware of actually learning tunes off his CDs. He takes a lot of liberties with the melody. (Beautiful, heart-breaking, uplifting liberties, but liberties nonetheless.) Better if you figure out what he's doing and then find some other tune and apply what you've learned.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
.... and then go hear him live and listen to how he speeds up when he really gets into the groove. Mesmerising stuff.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Not even a yellow brick road, Zina
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I have taught myself to play instruments, settling for a few workshops here and there. But I hit a wall with guitar, and just wanted to get better for the sake of my group. So after watching a lot of local guitarists, I started lessons from young Matt Heaton from Boston, and it is amazing how much progress you can make with even monthly lessons. He has me working with a metronome, which is the opposite of fun, but as you play a little, crank that metronome up 5 beats, play some more, crank it up another 5 beats, etc, you really can really get a lot of benefit in learning to play faster. And when you hit a wall, you often find yourself able to discover the barrier that kept you from moving quicker. I think the key is to push yourself forward to do something different. So with the right teacher, even an old dog can learn new tricks!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Shannon Heaton was my first teacher, Al.
Right teachers indeed! Say hi to Matty for me. Heard their shows this weekend went really well.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Listen, DebWah, it's good you're practising tunes at dirge pace, and it seems right that your teacher is fostering this. but a dirge is a dirge, and you're going to have to up the tempo. why don't you stop learning new tunes for a while, and have your teacher help you beef up one or two you've already "learned." pick one or two that you like. hell, i learn two new tunes a year, but i am always going back to already learned tunes and relearning, sculpting and adjusting the tempo. if fact, why dont you spend the next year trying to really learn the tunes you already know at a slow pace.
NO NEW TUNES FOR YOU!!!! ;)
also, sounds like you're squeezing the life outta these poor little chunes. enjoy them, my dear debWah. you know you hurt their little feelings if you only play them at dirge pace ;)
your teacher should be able to help you with this, technically and otherwise...
good luck!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Brendan
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Zina, it was worth a try!
Conan, I completely agree with you re: difference in teaching methods, trad vs classical. That's why I asked if my expectations are at fault. I believe in cutting slack. But at the same time, shouldn't my needs as the student come into play?
Jode, funny you should mention ditching the book. That was one of my inclinations. Get the ear working more than the eyes. I'm relying on the book as a crutch.
Thanks for the input everyone. Getting another objective view always helps.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
It's always worth a try, Deb! Um. What're we talking about, exactly? Heh.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Oh, asking for that yard stick.
Brendan, now you have me feeling guilty hurting those puir wee tunes! You're right. No more new ones.
So, I'm ditching the book,
Going back to old tunes,
Rerouting the lessons so to speak
And for Joe, maybe I'll start wearing the odd go-go boot to the lessons.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Deb, hope I didn't come across as lecturing, maybe expectations depend on how much you're paying for these lessons. If they're expensive then the teacher should be providing an apropriate service. if it's practically a freebie....
You pay peanuts you get monkeys (not that I'm calling your teacher a monkey, but you now what I mean).
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What to expect from lessons??
erm, you *know* what I mean
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Well, there's as many opinions as there are individuals, but I'd talk to your teacher about whether she thinks ditching the book is a good idea first. If I was your teacher and you came in and said, my friends on this forum I spend time on said I should do THIS instead of what you told me to do, I'd probably tell you that perhaps then you should take lessons from them, not me.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I thought it was "if you pay peanuts you get elephants, and if you want a monkey you have to spring for a banana."
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
(and perhaps that wouldn't be such bad advice, zina. *snicker*)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
A teacher who gets bored playing slowly should be doing something else than teaching. You are there to learn, and slowly is the key to success...
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Cammy
Re: What to expect from lessons??
But Zina, if she goes back to the old tunes, then she won't need the book. :~)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Jode
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Conan, no you didn't sound lecturish at all, I really understood what you were saying.
Talking this through with the teacher will be my first thing next lesson. I do think I'm hooked on the book and do need to lay it down, if only during practice at home. But in reality, the book has become a crutch at lessons too. Takes the pressure off of guidance and I think teaching/learning by ear. There's got to be a little bit more when teaching a beginner, than just going from tune to tune. There's more to the music than just the notes which make up the melody.
I understand that these are suggestions only. But for the tunes sake as Brendan suggests, no new ones is a fine approach right now. Speed them up, pretty them up etc.
I think interacting with the teacher may help also, with injecting a bit more enthusiasm/ interest during the lesson itself. And this does apply with Conan's cutting slack. By involving more than melody lines, the teacher may get more out of the 1/2 hour as well.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Jode, Kerri, I wasn't talking about whether learning from a book through your teacher is a good idea or not. (Personally, I'd not have used it.) I was addressing the fact that we all are telling someone else's student how to tell her teacher how to teach her without knowing all facets of the situation. Joking aside, that's both high handed and rude, and also somewhat irresponsible.
If Deb speaks to her teacher about her issues, hopefully she'll get what she needs, but she may also find out things about the situation that she may not have realized if the teacher is responsible enough to explain what she's doing. (It's possible that the teacher doesn't know what she's doing, of course, and that may be what Deb finds out.)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
...
I mean, if you discovered by chance that Deb's teacher was Liz Carroll or Liz Knowles or someone such as that, wouldn't it suddenly change how you'd give her advice?
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Well, I don't think I was being rude. If you reread my post, I start by saying that she needs to communicate with her teacher, and close with the thought that she should not throw her teacher overboard. Couched in the middle I opinionate that she should ditch the book.
Rude? Really, I think we are saying just about the same thing Zina. I am trying not to be rude to her teacher, because I probably know who she is, and do not want negative comments to get back to her. Small world.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Jode
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Yup, rude. To one extent or another. Of course, we're rude to other people by merely breathing and having our own opinions. Anyway, yes, we are saying the same thing, Jode, but things on the thread were starting to get a bit out of hand, on my part as well., and I wanted to redress that.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I just read an about an old army typing course (not a likely source of inspiration I know) where you do 3 minute sessions of slow error-free keystroke practice separated by 15 minute mandatory rest periods. At the end of the day you can supposedly type accurately at 25 wpm.
I'm not likely to be taking this course any time soon but the point is that slow practice can be very efficient way to learn because you don't learn a bunch of errors. However, it's also very difficult and, frankly, boring. Most people can't do it for very long before they get bored and sloppy or fall into a homicidal rage, etc. If you bored you are probably making errors which defeats the purpose.
I think the teacher here had good intentions but had maybe lost the plot a bit with the slow practice: You have to keep it short.
Paul
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Paul Brennan
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I wouldn't want her to get bad feelings as well Jode. She a fine teacher and a fine fiddler, it just seems that in the past couple of months, things have become well, boring. And maybe the operative word there is "seems". I can't help thinking that playing slowly would get boring for the teacher. But you have to start somewhere.
I also feel she would be open to a discussion. Her enjoyment /interest in the music is as it always was. I can feel her enthusiasm when she plays. Unfortunately, I'm not much fun to play with yet.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
OK, so said teacher can kick me in the behind for telling them their business, and I apologize directly if they think I am being rude.
However, if I were in Debwah's shoes, that is what I would do. And if it were one of those individuals that you mention Zina, I would be further motivated to learn tunes directly from them!!!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Jode
Re: What to expect from lessons??
You mean besides the fact that you've posted your frustrations on a public board, and that neither of you (or me, for that matter) make any secret of who you are and where you live? *grin* Worth remembering that lots of people read this site without ever letting on they do, and they will often tell folks who are mentioned on the board that they were, in fact, mentioned... ;)
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Cross-posted -- and Jode, that is in fact what I believe I would do as well.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I am reticent to directly criticise a teacher based on an internet posting, because I don't really know the teacher or the situation, being completely dependent on your post for making an assessment of the situation. If I had you as a student in my own studio it would take me at least a few weeks of such personal contact to home in on you (and you me), thus Zina has a valid point.
However, there are also many valid counterpoints, so I'll press on regardless:
It appears to me, strictly from what you've said, that you have a fairly classic variety of bad teacher on your hands, the kind that doesn't actually know how to *teach,* so they fall back on working through tunes and a book, simply because they don't know what else to do. Teaching is a skill and an art apart from musicianship. In fact, many rather poor musicians are some of the finest teachers, especially for beginners and intermediates. The dictum that "Those who can't do, teach," ignores the fact that teaching is what they can *do.*
This can be reinforced in the field of Irish music by the tradition of picking things up by "osmosis," but you don't need to pay a teacher for that, simply hang out with a lot of fiddlers, which can not only be instructive, but fun, not to mention free (although standing the odd beer or three might be appreciated). You clearly expect, and have the right to expect, someting a bit more from a paid teacher, because you are a *customer* and should never loose sight of that fact. The customer isn't always right, especially a student, but the customer is certainly always the ultimate arbiter of whether or not they are getting what they want, and shouldn't the least bit reticent about shopping around for the best "product."
But the problem isn't innate to Irish music, in fact I think it's probably more prevelant in the classical field (if only because they make it up in volume) where there are a godzillion 'teachers' who can't do anything more than run a student throught piece after piece, resulting in the sort of 'musician' who has been taking lessons for ten years and still feels like he doesn't know how to play. And he's right, because he's never actually been taught *how to play,* and being taught how to practice is even rarer. This is the field from which future teachers are taken, and if they've never been taught how to play it's a bit much to expect that they've been taught how to teach playing.
Patience, as mentioned in this thread and others, is also the primary virtue of the teacher. It is innate in teaching that you are going to be dealing with people who don't know/can't do (two different things) whatever it is they're trying to learn, otherwise they wouldn't need a teacher, now would they? A teacher not prepared to deal with this simply shouldn't be teaching, and I get the impression that your teacher is (which is fairly common) doing it for the money, because that's what he can do and it beats working at Wal-Mart. Which is probably true for the teacher, but a bit hard on the students.
Of course the best teachers do it because they actually love teaching. They certainly take the money, because without it they can't continue to teach (rent needs to paid, food needs to be eaten, instruments and learning tools need to be purchased, etc.), but it's the music and the teaching that matters, not the money. The money is merely the means to the end, and not, as it is commonly put, "making a living." They live to play and teach. As Thoreau put it, 'A poet should live off his poetry, as a steam planer is fired from it's own shavings.'
Just a couple of days ago I had a young, beginning guitar student come to me who had just discovered, for the first time, tab sites on the internet and wanted to know if he could teach himself from these sites. Certainly, I said, but. . .what I am here for is to teach you *how* to play the tab. The tab shows you *what* to play, my job is to teach you how to play it, so that you can, ultimately, teach yourself particular songs or tunes. My job is to make myself redundant, and to do so as quickly and painlessly for *you* as we are both capable of.
Teaching tunes and songs is not teaching how to play. Lessons should be about technique, *applied* to tunes, which the student then goes home and practices, and so lessons should also be about the *techniques* of practicing. Playing tunes is not practicing. It is, as legendary guitarist Tommy Tedisco likes to put it, 'rehersal.' Rehersal is polishing a tune for performance. Practice is about technique. You can play tunes over and over, for years and years, and not make one whit of progress as a musician. In fact, this is common. As Andee says lessons should have a laser focus, then you practice that laser focus, *then* you play a tune, with all the benefits derived from that laser focus properly applied.
A tune a week is much, much too fast a pace for learning technique. You're just learning tunes, which you can pick up on your own without paying a teacher (there's nothing wrong with paying someone to teach you tunes if that's what you want, but that isn't a *music* lesson). A teacher should be using a handful of tunes, which *you* like, as a base for teaching the techniques of playing, and then moving on to another tune to show how that technique can be applied generically, so that the teacher becomes redundant, because you've learned *how to play.* A tune a month would be more like it, and wring the heck out of each tune (nothing wrong with playing more tunes than that, for pleasure, but that's playing, not practicing and learning).
As to your specific complaint about slow playing, Kerri is right, you should practice slowly (and she has been the specific web target of my saying "slow down!" more than once), but I don't feel that that is what applies to the current situation. 'Slow' is relative to the particular player, and only to the particular player, and if, after a year, you are complaining that you are still playing at the same slow speed I think your feelings are justified.
Playing fast is something that can be taught, and indeed *should* be taught, because fast playing is a)something you need to learn and you only learn what you practice; and b)because fast playing is something that really "just comes" from the application of correct technique. Basic technique. The kind that should begin to be taught from lesson one, both in the technique of playing and the technique of practicing (working a new tune up to speed is a process, and you should be taught that process, from the very beginning).
If you still *can't* play faster than you could six months ago, you aren't being taught technique properly either. 'Fast' for you might not be session speed, but it should certainly be significantly fast*er*. Learning a new tune every week is keeping you in perpetual beginner mode, just having to learn a new sequence of notes all the time, without any time for work being done on how to play them properly (or even simply get familiar with them, so you aren't even getting much rehersal); and at speed, which is what a *lesson* should be about and what you should be *practicing.*
The paradox is that you need to practice slowly to be fast, but you need to apply the right definition of 'slow' to where you are, and take active steps in raising the bar of what is 'slow' for you, to the point where it is what other people call 'fast.'
And this is the proper function of the metronome in practice. To force a pace that is the proper amount of *slow* to improve, so that you can crank the setting up a bit because that new, faster setting is your new 'slow.' Most people set it fast and try to 'race to keep up' with it. All this teaches you is how to play sloppily and badly, without any technique at all.
And thus, ultimately, slowly, because speed comes from the application of proper technique, founded on fundmental principles that transcend any particular intrument (and even music), such as the principles of relaxation and least motion. Those musicians who 'make it look easy' do so because they have, in fact, learned the easy way of doing it, not because they have some special sort of super DNA or something that makes things that are innately hard easier. They 'cheat.'
This can be learned, and thus taught, and what you should be expecting from your teacher.
Again, you are the customer. Don't be afraid to shop around for a better teacher, just like you would for a TV set. Some teachers simply aren't very good with beginners, even though they may be the best master class teachers in the world, just as some of the finest musicians in the world are lost when given a master class, but excel with beginners (although I think this is less common. Good players tend to lose their "beginner's mind" and lose their ability to relate to beginners. Thus the best teacher for a beginner often isn't one of the front rank of players). You'll probably even find you'll need at least three or four over the course of your lifetime, each bringing something else to you, and the best teachers know this, take it into account, and will even refer you to another teacher when the time is right.
Here are a couple of sites I think you should have a look at. They aren't about fiddle, but if you read them and think about them they'll give you some idea of what two, really fine teachers think about what constitues really fine teaching, as well as really fine learning:
http://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm
http://www.guitarprinciples.com/
Then have that chat with your teacher. You're not supposed to be fun to play with. You're supposed to fun to *teach* (which is at least as much your teacher's issue as yours, and in my opinion as a teacher a lot more) and you must certainly have a certain kind of fun (at least of the sort that a marathon runner feels he is having) from learning as well.
KFG
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: What to expect from lessons??
"Unfortunately, I'm not much fun to play with yet."
You're not supposed to be fun to play with, exactly. It's what happens when you have students. Any teacher worth anything knows that. Don't let your perceived shortcomings keep you from playing with whoever will play with you, or learning from whoever will teach you!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I have to say, Zina, I don't agree that it's rude or disrespectful to take an active role in your music lessons any more than it would be rude and disrespectful to inform my doctor I'd rather take licorice tea than antibiotics for my sore throat. Just as I have a right to choose what I put in my body, I also have the right to choose what I put into my mind, and if a teacher isn't excited as a kid in a candy store that I *care* what goes into my mind, I have the wrong teacher.
Then again, I am EXTREMELY picky, as far as being educated is concerned. The pablum IV drip method of passive information acceptance never quite cut it for me.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Nice sites Kevin. In addition to those, I really like the site Larry Sanger has put together specifically pointed to learning irish fiddle. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6464/fidintro.html
He gives some great advice and definations about appropriate learning speed. Also makes some very thoughtful comparisons between style and technique and their importance.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Yeah, I like Larry's site a lot too. Not sure why I didn't post a link to it this time. Probably because I was focusing on the whole student/teacher relationship thingy, rather than on learning fiddle generically.
You have rectified my unwarranted ommision.
KFG
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Yeah, I like Larry's site a lot too. Not sure why I didn't post a link to it. Probably because I was focusing on the teacher/student thing, rather than generically on learning.
You have rectified my unwarranted ommison.
KFG
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: What to expect from lessons??
In fact, I was so contrite about the ommision, I posted twice, with variations.
KFG
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by KFG
*sigh*
Kerri, I wasn't saying it's rude or disrespectful for anyone to take an active hand in their lessons, learning, teaching, or otherwise. Might want to reread my posts, there, ducks.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Thanks all for opinions, suggestions et al. Thanks also for the links. Will read them this eve.
Lest anyone has the impression that I feel my teacher is not a good one, I apologize. The only frame of reference I have for lessons is that of my grade school violin lessons, taken in a public school with several other students. I have no other experience with private lessons. This is why I asked if I am expecting too much. We won’t discuss how long ago that was, suffice to say, it was a while back. As an adult, my expectations of the teacher vs student, may need adjustment. Ultimately, I need to get the lessons back on a track that work for me. I take responsibility for that. It would be easier all around to quit or look for another teacher. I don't think it necessary at this time. What works for 1 student may not work for another. I need to find what works for me, then discuss that with my teacher. Your suggestions help with that.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Which posts, Zina - these ones?
"I was addressing the fact that we all are telling someone else's student how to tell her teacher how to teach her... that's both high handed and rude, and also somewhat irresponsible."
(Jode, "Rude!!??")
"Yup, rude."
You might want to reread your own posts before suggesting I reread your posts.
I don't think I've done any more than suggest it's OK to clue your teacher in to what it is you'd like to learn, and how. If that's high handed and rude... Or is it NOT rude and disrespectful... hang on now, I'm completely lost.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
The Cranitch Tutor and fixed bowing patterns
Deb, here's my story for what it's worth.
I am three years down the road with the fiddle and started out with the Cranitch tutor. I think it's great for the beginner, especially the adult beginner, because there is ample focus on pulse and rhythm. Generally speaking, I find that Matt hasn't written in a ton of slurs, perhaps in an effort to ensure that the beat is heard rather than muddied. Matt's book was great for me because it taught me to how to listen for the pulse in a tune and understand certain ways of marking the rhythm with my bow.
In any event, I find that bowing the tunes the way Matt suggests amply illustrates how they should come across (rhythmically speaking) and they work well at a moderate pace. But those bowings become increasingly difficult for me as I start speeding it up. It seems to work for Matt, but not for me, and maybe not for you either. Like you, I was having a lot of trouble with Matt's bowings at session speed. (Prime example: The Pretty Girls of Mayo - HOW does he do it using those bowings? He certainly has a dexterous right hand anyway.)
So by the time I hit the Wheels of the World I decided to try out something else and got some Kevin Burke bowings from one of his videos. The reasons why Kevin and Matt are very different fiddlers couldn't have been more obvious. Kevin is the antithesis of Matt, using long, fluid bows and much slurring. The pulse comes not so much from changing bow directions (as is generally the case with Matt) as increasing the speed of the bow through the beat, even when the bow continues travelling in the same direction. Now Burke's bowings are not easily emulated either but it demonstrated to me very clearly that there is more than one way of getting the pulse out of a tune. It also taught me not to rely on a fixed bowing pattern which, unfortunately, is the tendency if you study only one set of bowing transcriptions.
I think that your teacher, by playing too quickly, might be forcing you (intentionally or not) to rethink your bowings. A question for you: if you play one of your earlier Cranitch tunes, say the Rose in the Heather, and you use an up-bow where Cranitch indicates a down-bow, do you get derailed? If so, it is likely that you wont be able to bow your way out of a corner when the tune is going at a quicker pace. In that case, you might benefit by having a look at someone elses bowings, maybe even those of your teacher! (I would find it very strange if she used Matt's bowings exclusively). Or invent your own - an exercise that Matt readily encourages in his book.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Pawl
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Okay, given that interpretation of what I said, then you're rude Kerri. Fraid I don't have the time or emotional energy for this right now.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
And now for something completely different...
It might be interesting to consider how one goes about learning Indian music at this point in the "lessons" argument. If you want to play sitar, you have to go live at the master sitar-player's house and cook and clean for him -- be his servant. You might go for days with no mention of the music, or maybe even weeks. Then, while you helping him find his jacket -- he diddles some rhythms verbally for you. Then you wait for the next lesson. No wonder you can't play the feckin thing until you've been reincarnated at least 7 times.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Nice essay there, Kevin. Saved me from spouting off, too, because you've said very well the same things I'd bring up, based on my own years as a music teacher. Said it better than I could.
The only thing I'd add is that sometimes a student lasers in on the wrong aspect of a lesson. For some reason, teenage boys learning rock guitar are typically more interested in amassing tunes and lead breaks than they are learning to play music. If you hang too long on one tune, their attention wanes. Or, contrarily, they'll lock onto one cool riff for weeks on end, driven to play it exactly the same way every time (just like they hear it on MTV), and it's impossible to nudge them onto something new.
In Deb's situation, she's clearly saying she wants something different than what she's getting, so I doubt the above problem is what's happening here. But it still wouldn't hurt to clarify her expectations and see if they align with her teacher's. It could be that her teacher thinks that they *are* working on technique (just couched in a new tune a week--which strikes me as a less than effective strategy), but Deb is focused more on the tunes themselves and missing the bigger lesson. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.
Of course, part of the problem is that Deb may not know exactly what to ask for, what she needs to learn at this stage in her musical development. So I'd recommend telling your teacher what you're interested in improving, and also asking her what she thinks your priority should be.
Oh, and bear in mind that it takes at least 20 years on fiddle before anything starts to sound like you want it to.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: What to expect from lessons??
The teachers I've chosen usually start things off by *asking* me what I'd like to learn, and how, opening the door for me to say things like "I prefer learning by ear" or "I really like to get into a single tune for hours on end" or "I would like to spend a whole hour working on rolls". None of my teachers have reacted as though I've slapped them with a glove, but I suppose that's more because of the teachers I've chosen. They all nurture high-handed rudeness in their students.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Some thoughts from a full time trad music teacher -
The "traditonal" way to teach has tended to be through teaching tunes. From the reading I have done on this, however, a tune a week would be a lot to expect, as you would not be getting the style and stuff very well sorted. I'm not saying this is a good or bad way to teach - just the traditional one.
I believe that playing stuff like scales and excercises will really speed up your progress, and a creative teacher can give you plenty of this to do, make it fun and help you see it's relevance.
Teachers get stuck sometimes, too, just like students - especially if they're not very experienced at teaching. I can remember this happening to me a lot in the earlier years. I was very motivated to find better and better ways to teach, so now it only happens rarely.
The worst kind of teacher, IMHO, just keeps handing out new tunes but never goes into much depth with them. I would expect my pupils to have a number of tunes and exercises on the go at any one time - and we might work on some of them for months on end, depending on their difficulty.
Playing slow is the best way to give yourself a chance to build up good patterns rather than bad ones. However, it is easy to get stuck in slowsville. I try to play at a variety of speeds with my pupils, and encourage them to learn to use a metronome to build speeds gradually. So we play new/difficult stuff slowly, but sometimes let rip together on stuff they can do better - sometimes they can keep up, sometimes they just get a good look at what they should be trying for!
If you can discuss things with your teacher, that may help. However, many teachers can only do what works for them - and so they may be ther wrong teacher for some pupils. If you have the luxury of being able to shop around, it might be a good idea.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by kris
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Oh. My. God. 7 reincarnations or 20 years?? Geez! Here I was thinking I only had 6,900 rolls to do for a good one! Now I'm looking at years and reincarnations. Good Yard stick though!
Will yeah, it's hard to know exactly what to ask for, and a lot easier to just feel frustrated. I have a clearer head than I did this am. That helps a lot. There's always more than 1 way to get to the same destination. Having a better view of the map will help.
But God, 7 reincarnations????
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
When I give private lessons, I consider each tune for the challenges it introduces based on the student's level and ability. I don't move on to another tune until I feel the student has gained an understanding of the challenges. Then I try to find a tune that reinforces and adds to what we've already covered, but at the same time introduces new challenges as well. I'm always hoping my students come away with more understanding than how many tunes they can “play.” After all… they will be adding tunes for the rest of their lives.
At the weeklong music camp I teach at every summer, I have co-taught with folks like Grey Larson and John Skelton. One of the chronic complaints from students was that there weren't enough tunes taught in the course of the classes. I decided to supplement the flute class with a repertoire workshop where only tunes were taught and there would be no discussion of technique. This seemed extremely successful and satisfied the appetite for learning tunes from the students.
It's difficult to balance between tunes and technique when you're giving private lessons, so what I do is ask my students to listen to recordings and go to sessions and make a list of tunes you'd like to learn. Then continue listening while you're working on technique. I'm hoping this will provide them with a head start for learning new tunes later when they've mastered more skills, but at the same time allow them to concentrate working on a small number of tunes for technique learning purposes.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Yes Grasshoppah -- 7 reincarnations.
(sound of Indian music here)
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Thanks Jack, I'm really excited now! Oh wait. You indicated 7 reincarnations for Indian music. I'm trying to learn Irish!
That's only 20 years.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Yea, ITM is a much better bargain than Indian music that way -- and the teachers are more helpful too.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Am kicking myself now by the way. Last week I happened to get to the Celtic Fiddle Festival concert. Mr. Burke had one of his videos available. I just bought his music. Shameful, missed opportunity. My mom even advised me to get that! Always listen to Mom.
Don't miss them, CFF that is. The performance was fabulous.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Yes, the teachers are more helpful! I'm not expected to cook or clean.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I think you can probably pick up that video online somehow, deb. That's a great album.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
I'm sure I can Kerri. Just a missed opportunity. And I'd rather work through some of the speed/bowing etc. with my tutor. Somehow, I can see myself getting really botched up while watching Burke, following Cranitch and studying with my tutor. That might be a triple crown in some circles, but a bit too much for this grey mare!
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Fair enough. The huge advantage you have with a teacher is you can ask it questions and get a 3 dimensional viewing of what's really going on. (When Kevin Burke puts out a digital interactive holographic instruction DVD, all fiddle teachers everywhere will find themselves eating out of garbage cans.)
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Hey Debwah,
have you now got those go-go boots? I've been looking under the stairs and everywhere for them. Aye let's do the international band with Gunther on the whistle, Uzma on the spoons, Enzo on fiddle, Liu Qiang on guitar etc etc.
Joe
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Joe Quinn
Re: What to expect from lessons??
Hello DebWah--
I am very much a beginning fiddler, having only been trying to learn since the first week of January. No lessons, just going off instructional materials. In the last six weeks or so I was encouraged by a few (better!) players I know to play along with them at some nursing homes on the weekends leading up to St. Patrick's day. I knew I couldn't play at all (you can imagine how bad I am) but they said, who cares, just stay on the right note anyway and the audience is not going to be terribly critical. So I agreed, but for the last month I have been learning lots of tunes so as to be able to play along. I found that even trying hard I couldn't play many of the tunes at full speed anyway, except polkas.
The thing is, I found the whole experience incredibly frustrating because I was spending all my time learning sets of tunes and trying to get them up to speed, with no time to explore the tunes rhythmically, to try variations in bowing, to experiment with ornamentation, to really learn the tune. No time to focus on technique. I began to get the impression that I could go on like that for twenty years and never get a whole lot better, and play on the nursing home circuit forever, so to speak.
So I learned nothing. (Except maybe just got to know the fingerboard & pitch a little better). Or rather, I learned that what your teacher is doing sounds stupid to me. I'm guessing that you shouldn't be trying to learn a tune a week until you make some real technical strides and feel happier about your playing. But more importantly, going through a book is horrible! I did that in piano lessons as a kid years ago and it ruined piano for me. You are not going to like every tune in the book and having to work on tunes you don't like won't make as as happy or help you to learn as well as if you played only tunes you like. The great thing about music is to play tunes you like the way you like to play them (usually influenced by thw way some really great players play them), not to be an organ- grinder. So I agree with KFG 100%.
The Sligo Fiddler Michael Gorman, who learned from Jamesy Gannon, who taught Michael Coleman, said (I think on Folktrax 069) that it took him six months to get down his first tune, Farrel Gara. I got the impression from what he said that Gannon said something like this: here's the tune, here's how I play it, now come back to me when you can do it like I can. And Gorman, who was just a servant boy at the time, worked at the tune for six months until he got it down. The other thing he did for those six months was go rambling and listen to Gannon, Coleman, McDemott and other fiddlers play several nights a week! That's it--listening, and one tune, for six months.
Now that might have been exaggeration on Gorman's part, but at least it illustrates the opposite alternative from what your teaching is doing (sounds like you're both very frustrated, SO IT'S NOT WORKING). the point is that if you want to get truly good at fiddle, you will have to focus on technique and on learning ONE TUNE until you can play it the way you like it, and that is only possible by NOT TRYING TO PLAY IT THE SAME WAY EACH TIME (at least after you get down basic fingering and rythmic bowing), but by treating the tune as something to explore and understand and love, not something to memorize.
When I heard Gorman's recording 3 days ago I realized why I was getting frustrated. Now I really like (very much) the Ballydesmond Polkas as played on The Star Above the Garter, and they are simple tunes (polkas), and I have been wanting to learn them, but they are not one of the sets we were playing for the nursing homes. Conversely, some of the tunes we WERE playing I am not all that enthusiastic about. So now that the nursing-home circuit is ending it's my intention to follow Gorman's advice. I'm going to slow down the Ballydesmonds and listen and practice until I can play along with Julia and Denis, the way they play it, if not at full speed then at least at 80% or so. I am going to learn ONE of the polkas at a time, starting with Ballydesmond #2 because it seems easiest to me. (I'll probably continue to play other tunes I've been learning as I get the urge, but I am going to focus on the Ballydesmonds to learn whatever technique I can from those tunes.) Then I am going to pick a couple of jigs I really love, maybe Sean Ryan's as played by Paddy Canny and P.J. Hayes, or maybe by Kevin Burke and Martin Hayes, or maybe Paddy Fahey's played by Martin Byrnes, and learn a jig set the same way. And then I am going to learn a hornpipe set, and then a reel set. And then maybe a slip-jig set and a slide set. Picking only tunes that I already REALLY LOVE from listening to them, and trying to play them the way some of my heroes did or do.
Now I don't know if I'll stick to the plan 100% (though I hope I will!) as I will probably try to join a session sometime soon, and will have to learn other tunes. But I will go only to listen-- maybe play one set, or two at most, each night. But I don't think it's a bad plan, and it's a lot better then going through a book-any book-and learning to play every single tune at a rate not permitting a focus on technique.
Sorry to yammer on like this so long, what I have to say is not worth much because I don't know how it's done yet, but I thought you should hear what Gorman said anyway. Talk to your teacher! Maybe you can work something out!
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by 2ndFiddle
Re: What to expect from lessons??
After reading, thinking etc. it seems to me that the issue is one of lack of communication on my part. I get the feeling as an adult I should be taking a more active role. I assumed the course of the lessons was a defined one. I'm not paying for psychic services, unless I speak up, no one would know if I am frustrated or not.
Who knows, going with the flow may be the norm here. In my frustration, I may have given the impression that this teacher is not a decent one. Bad on my part.
Last Fridays fun was most probably the boot I needed to reevaluate what works/doesn't work for me. The suggestions here have been a help to better identify possibilities with which I will discuss with my tutor.
Thanks everyone, Deb.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Agnes Nutter