To promote our music school, we've set up an instrument petting zoo at some festivals. Kids are drawn to our booth by the instruments we have set out that we let them try.
I am wondering if anyone out there has suggestions for how to clean tin whistle tops. I was using an alchohol swab, but it tastes AWFUL when you put the whistle back in your mouth.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
There is a gel lotion used at grocery stores for checkers to sanitize their hands before handling groceries. It might be worth a try. I have done school demos and given children the pick while I did the frets for chords. Care is needed of course, but the little kids would light up with enthusiasm. Sounds like an excellent project.
Showdaddydadito: the mental picture of 30 or 40 little kiddies all wanting a "taste" of tinwhistle and progressively getting tipsy is frightening?
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Mint flavored Listerine, a surgical antiseptic safe for oral use, which, by the way, most (if not all) "drug store" alcohol is not, being intentionally "denatured" to prevent it being consumable, otherwise people could get drunk for a buck the pint of 180 proof. Read the warning label against internal use on your bottle.
Showaddy is right, you should be using whiskey or vodka if you're going to be using alcohol, because it is food grade. This would, I am sure, create a bit of a firestorm, but it is, nonetheless, the proper and safe way to use alcohol as a disinfectant around anything that might get into the mouth, such as on kitchen countertops. . .and whistle fipples.
Don't use a swab, pour some in a glass and soak the whistle top down in it for at least 5 or 6 minutes before handing it over to the next kid. The little buggers insist on taking some time to roll over and die (that would be the germs, not the kids, although I imagine the kids would too).
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Yes, Infant Feeding Bottle Steriliser Tablets (IFBST) would also be a good, ummmmm, "solution." I believe Milton is a UK only brand name though. In St. Paul she'd want to look for Sterinova.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
That Milton stuff is a kind of bleach... you wouldn't want to splash it on your clothes.
I'd have a good number of whistles, and make sure you've loosened the fipples - then you can take them off, soak them in whiskey for ten minutes, rinse them and bring them back into rotation. I'd go with whiskey rather than Listerine, it'll be cheaper. Besides which, do you want these children to associate Irish music with going to the dentist? No, no, no, it should be an alluring sensory experience - the faint waft of whiskey can surely only add to it...
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
In all seriousness, I've always liked the idea of a musical petting zoo, and giving the kids to truly get the feel of a musical instrument.
In all foolishness, I'd be rather concerned as to the other uses kids could find for tin whistles. For instance, they might find it's really fun to use the non-fipple end to punch holes in their peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Or to see what a tin whistle sounds like if you stick the end in a cup of juice. Or to see if you really _can_ "stick it in your ear."
Was it Utah Phillips who said, "A musical instrument in the hands of a child is like a loaded weapon"?
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
". . .make sure you've loosened the fipples - then you can take them off. . ."
I'd be nervous about doing that in any location where there's a liability lawyer within 3000 miles.
"I'd go with whiskey rather than Listerine, it'll be cheaper."
You obviously shop differently than I do. I'm perfectly happy with the $3.00 an economy sized bottle if you buy it on sale house brand "Listerine", but I rather tend to avoid the $3.00 a bottle "whiskey."
". . .it should be an alluring sensory experience - the faint waft of whiskey can surely only add to it... "
Although I tend to agree with this. The PC people are ruining everything. Watch out, the next thing you know they're going to be lobbying for speed limits on dance music to prevent injuries "for the children."
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
O.K.: you are being serious about the whiskey thing. I'll let the Bart Simpson people know about it in case they need an idea for a future episode. I can just see Bart with a Tinwhistle in each nostril and Homer taking over the whisky swabbing chores.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
I'm assuming you wouldn't be using your 10-year Bush Mills for this purpose - supermarket whiskey will do for disinfectant! I thought Listerine was quite pricey stuff, but maybe that's here...
Shouldn't the fipples always be loose? (ooh Matron, etc) - how can you tune the whistles, otherwise?
A dozen children blowing randomly on whistles which are all marginally out of tune with each other - this is starting to sound like my idea of hell...
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
From my experience of the sort of state that kids get into at festivals, you want a big vat of boiling washing-up to sterilize THEM before they touch your whistles.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Ottery: How about Whiskey in the Bathtub while we are at it? I suppose that would encourage a few Homer Simpson type of adults to also join the bathers.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
I did a workshop at a kindergarten once where I brought instruments from all over the world and played a little on each for the whole class, then opened it up for the kids to try the instruments. It was a fantastic time. I loved it. I hope your zoo / school is a smashing success.
(OK, wrong choice of words - in my experience nothing gets smashed until you turn your back.)
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
KFG - thanks for the listerine idea. Perfect. Of course I know that the alchohol is not for internal usage. What I had been doing was swabbing with the alchohol and then letting it sit in some water. This was effective, I guess, but horrible tasting. I don't believe it was really geing ingested in any way. (Though I am sure to get a comment on the harms ....) Listerine is a much better idea. Thanks. Though Ottery's suggestion is a good one ...
And thanks for the support of the petting zoo. We've gotten a tremendous response from kids and adults through this activity. Nothing smashed yet (knock on wood).
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
"you are being serious about the whiskey thing."
Certainly. The writing on the label slapped on a bottle of alcohol has no mystical effect on the intoxicating properties of its contents. That bottle of "rubbing" alcohol is 180 proof hootch, plain and simple and that bottle of 80 proof "devil whiskey" is less than half as potent.
Nobody is going to get any more intoxicated from a whiskey soaked whistle than they are from a medical alcohol soaked whistle. Especially since it's going to all evaporate off pretty quickly anyway. Listerine, by the way, is 54 proof.
All the word "whiskey" means these days is "A tax has been paid on the contents of this bottle, so we haven't manufactured it in such a way that a couple shots will make even a hard core alky who can't get a buzz off a litre bottle trying to evade the tax puke for a day or so."
Alcohol is the easiest to manufacture, and thus innately cheapest to buy, most effective, as well as safest (aside from the risk of addiction) of the disinfectants. It just happens to be booze as well. Buying it *as* booze, in most places, is the only legal way to obtain it in a grade that is safe to get in your mouth.
But if Kate put up a big sign saying "We're soaking your kid's whistles in Jack Daniels now!" all hell would break loose, even though in translation that would mean "I know you're happy that we're taking care to sterilize the whistles in alcohol, but now we're doing it with a far less powerful intoxicant that hasn't been poisoned, because we care about the health and safty of your kids."
If she puts up a sign saying "We're soaking the whistles in a minty fresh oral antiseptic now" though, people are unlikely to read that as meaning "Man, this sh*t packs twice the punch of wine!"
Even though that's what it says.
And of course I'd bet that if the sign said, "We're using Infant Feeding Bottle Steriliser Tablets to insure your children's safety" it would make even the "chemically sensitive," anti-chlorination of water ecofreaks in the crowd all giddy with joy.
Beats hell out of "Warning! Contains one of the deadliest known poisons in the universe."
It's all about people's perception of what the label means, and not what it actually means.
". . .supermarket whiskey will do for disinfectant! I thought Listerine was quite pricey stuff, but maybe that's here..."
Sure, Listerene (tm) is pricey stuff. House brand "mouthwash"
purchased during a half off sale isn't. Whereas around these parts the base price of even a supermarket whiskey is determined by the *tax*, which is done by volume, not qualtiy, and alone exceeds the price of el cheapo mouthwash.
"A dozen children blowing randomly on whistles which are all marginally out of tune with each other"
You do understand that making the whistles tunable will only result in them being even *more* out of tune with each other as the kids fool around with the whistles, don't you? It will also make almost certain a few fipples get lost, and possibly a choking or two.
And there's no chance in hell of them playing in anything resembling tune in the first place. They're going to toot hell out of those things.
"Was it Utah Phillips who said, "A musical instrument in the hands of a child is like a loaded weapon"?"
I don't recall that one in particular, but yeah, it's the sort of thing he would say. Want to get even with someone? Give their kids a bodhran as a present (not that I'm implying that it's a musical instrument, but the principle is the same, squared).
". . .you want a big vat of boiling washing-up to sterilize THEM before they touch your whistles."
Good point.
". . .in my experience nothing gets smashed until you turn your back."
In my experience they'll arrange to create a diversion while one or two of them sneak around behind your back to smash something.
". . .but horrible tasting."
In part because the water is ineffective at removing the alcohol's adulterants from the fipples. Alcohol mixes with, washes away with water quite well. You can even put out an alcohol fire with water. One of the most common additives to make medical alcohol unfit for consumption is *kerosene.* You don't want to try to put out a kerosene fire with water, and water won't be effective in rinsing it off the fipples, even with wiping. If you just let it sit out in the open air it wouldnt take long for alcohol to simply evaporate away (which is why it is used for a topical coolant), but the keresene will be left behind as a micro film (I light with kerosene in my home, Stuff's a bitch to clean up if you spill a bit of it, which is why it is often rubbed on ferrous metals as a preservative. Even when the volatiles evaporate off a microfilm of parrafin wax is left behind).
Yeah, I know, there really isn't enough of a residue to make the small amount that might get on some kid's lips a real health issue, the dose makes the poison, but it is an issue that exists.
And I don't think a big sign over your disinfectant glass that says "Warning! May contain kerosene" would go over very well.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
>Want to get even with someone? Give their kids a bodhran as a present (not that I'm implying that it's a musical instrument, but the principle is the same, squared).
I sometimes wear a button that says:
"If thine enemy offend thee
give his child a drum"
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
I would strongly advise against using medical alcohol on its own, so do rinse it off with water afterwards. If it is the same stuff as we use in the lab - IMS - Industrial Methylated Spirit, it will contain a few percent of methanol. During its metabolism, methanol is converted to formaldehyde the same stuff as formalin which is used to pickle corpses and as a fixative. That's why alkies who drink meth. spirits go blind and and can suffer brain damage and even die. I guess the amount of methanol which a child would have imbibed from one of your whistles would be negligible but you don't want to have *any* as a risk factor. IMS and meth. spirit in the UK I don't think contains kerosene, but to make it unpalatable there is some additive, I can't mind what..... but the reason itis rendered unpalatable is because of the methanol content.
Could you use TCP, or some other disinfectant, then rinse that of with water?
Incidentally, and a curious aside, the hospital treatment for someone admitted from meth. spirit intoxication is to ply them with alcoholic beverage constantly for about a week!
The enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase will preferentially degrade ethanol ("normal" alcohol, if you like) rather than methanol. So it takes several days for the undegraded methanol to be eliminated from the body non-enzymatic means, ie in your pee, via sweat glands and exhaled from the lungs.
But neither is that a strategy I would recommend for going on a free bender for a week!
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Now for an additional challenge--how would you disinfect a good old wooden fipple whistle? Without swelling the fipple to the point of worthlessness that is!
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
"I would strongly advise against using medical alcohol on its own, so do rinse it off with water afterwards. If it is the same stuff as we use in the lab - IMS - Industrial Methylated Spirit, it will contain a few percent of methanol."
You can get this over here, but what you'll generally find in the little bottles on the drugstore shelves is isopropyl alcohol, itself a bit unpalatable and which metabolizes to acetone, but yes, methanol is another common adulterant, as is ethylene glycol.
There are actually a couple of dozen or so formulas for IMS (over here that most commonly means Indianapolis Motor Speedway though ), for different intended uses; the most common of which available over the counter as an antiseptic will either contain .5% methanol and 2% kerosene/petrol, or .5% methanol and 1% carbolic crystals, but a 2% methanol formula is available and commonly used in hospitals and as an industrial disinfectant.
In any case, no matter the formula, the stuff is intentionally made to taste bad and give a toxic reaction to discourage people from drinking it, and national laws generally prohibit its use in any situation that will intentionally introduce it into the mouth.
Better to be safe than sorry, if only to avoid the lawyers.
"Could you use TCP. . "
A UK brand name for a Pfizer (makers of Listerene) product. We don't get that. We get Listerene.
"So how about setting them in mouthwash for five mins then rinsing in water?"
That's what TCP is (as well as a topical antiseptic, same as Listerene. Pfizer doesn't seem to like to market general use products over here though, prefering to make the customer think he needs a different brand product for different kinds of disinfecting).
". . .how would you disinfect a good old wooden fipple whistle?"
Basically, you wouldn't. That's one of the problems with wood and why you'll see stainless steel countertops in restaurants, and they don't even have to deal with the swelling issue. Bacteria can live for years deep in the grain of wood, especially in a warm damp wood, like you'll find in a wind instrument. You apply whatever disinfectant suits your fancy to the surface as best you can, and take your chances.
The risks are really much lower than the TV ads would have you believe, but if you want to be afraid of something be afraid of doorknobs and money.
Lewis Thomas has written a couple of really great essays for the New England Journal of Medicine (reprinted in the book A Long Line of Cells) on how the drug companies have fostered an unneeded, and even detrimental, paranoia about bacteria (with the unwitting aid of the populace themselves, who seem to have a need for boogeymen). They're all over you, right now. You probably won't get sick or nothin' and if you do, you'll probably get better without any treatment whatsoever.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Wait a minute - KFG - you're off on one again without knowing the facts. Methanol is not *used* as an adulterant. Methanol is a bi-product of cheap industrial alcohol production, ie not done by yeast but as an industrial catalytic process. The adulterants are, as you say, and which I had said before you, to stop people supping it.
And, incidentally, 70% IMS is more effective than Absolute IMS, because 70% IMS has more osmotic effect, and thus bacterial cells undergo more complete lysis when exposed to 70% IMS.
The main problem wouldn't be bacteria anyway but the 200+ forms of virus which produce symptoms of the common cold. Again, 70% is most effective.
Bacteria can live for years deep in the grains of wood....
Well, maybe cultures will survive if they are sufficiently maintained at high humidity. But more likely the have the faculty to sporulate...ie become spores. Again, it's the risk of already extant opportunistic commensals, and not the obligate anaerobes who are more likely to inhabit grains of wood for decade upon decade.
Please contribute only when you know what you're talking about.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
When our child was in elementary school, we did a similar "petting zoo" with both instruments and shoes. Of course, the kids couldn't try out the shoes (their feet were a little small) but we were able to arrange to have all kinds of dancers come to the school to visit classrooms, show their stuff, and talk to the kids about dancing. This was enormously popular. Trying out musical instruments was okay, but dancing really got a response from kids. They loved the sound of step dancing in hard shoes, as well as clogging in wooden shoes from England. Really great fun for everyone involved. Good luck Kate-Dowling
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
"Methanol is a bi-product of cheap industrial alcohol production, ie not done by yeast but as an industrial catalytic process. "
A strawman, but. . .
The vast majority of the world's methanol is produced catalytically from natural gas, because this is cheaper than the destructive distillation of wood, or coal to produce gas to produce methanol. Yes, I am aware of this. It affects my pocketbook directly, currently in the adverse as methanol production has been cut back, driving the price up.
"Methanol is not *used* as an adulterant."
The resultant methanol is added to ethanol, produced by fermentation, as a denaturant, an adulterant, as is petrol, kerosene and a number of other chemicals, intentionally, to stop people supping it. ( I realize you "ignore" and "don't read" my posts, so you may be excused for not knowing I had already brought that up and how it affects the price of the alcohol, although you seem to have odd definitions of "ignore" and "don't read." )
In other words, it is *used* as an adulterant. All you have to do is type "methanol+adulterant" into Google to confirm it, or look up "denatured alcohol" at Wikipedia.
If you're going to persist in attacking me you might want to reconsider your stated practice of "ignoring" and "not reading" my posts. It will allow you to respond to things I've actually said instead of making them up in your rush to abuse the "wententious pranker"; and keep you from looking silly in the process.
In addition to its use as an adulterant it is also used as a solvent and a fuel, which is how it affects my pocketbook.
". . .because 70% IMS has more osmotic effect"
As does diluted honey (through the production of hydrogen peroxide), although it still remains sticky, the chief downfall of honey used as an antibacterial agent.
"Well, maybe cultures will survive if they are sufficiently maintained at high humidity."
Such as you are likely to find around a kitchen countertop and in a well played wind instrument, yes, I mentioned that too. I don't think it would be a big deal in a fiddle, they're typically too dry, but then I don't typically suck on my fiddle, let alone somebody else's (and I'm not prepared to discuss my atypical behavior in this regard in public. I handle fiddles though. I think I can admit that in public, so long as I don't go into too much detail.)
I don't think it would be a big deal in a wind instrument that hadn't been played for a long time either, and I've never felt any particular trepidation about playing same, but then that doesn't exactly describe the conditions under discussion.
"The main problem wouldn't be bacteria anyway but the 200+ forms of virus which produce symptoms of the common cold."
Possible, but disputable, and you'd really have to sterilize the entire whistle to deal with it effectively.
". . it's the risk of already extant opportunistic commensals, and not the obligate anaerobes who are more likely to inhabit grains of wood for decade upon decade."
Well, although I know what all the words mean I don't find this statement entirely grammatically clear. You can try to restate it if you wish, or simply acknowledge that it's a strawman injected into the discussion to display your feeling of superior knowledge of the subject and be done with it.
"Please contribute only when you know what you're talking about."
You might have considered that advice yourself before going off about the meaning of the word "quintessentially, but in any case I'm afraid I shall post as I please, as shall you, n'est ce pas?
Although for everyone's benefit you might wish to at least consider apopting a more conventional definition of "ignore" and "don't read." It's the strategy that will result in the greatest happiness for all. "All" would include you I would think, unless you're pursuing your current course of verbal assault for pleasure, in which case YMMV, but you might wish to think of the children.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
the petting zoo idea's great. if it hadn't been for one of them i would never have had the idea of playing irish music, although I do apologise to the guy who let me loos on his fiddle all those years ago.
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Yes, we have whistles, a flute, a fiddle and a concertina.
All this chemical talk - - - so, do I NOT sanitize the whistles? Just dip them in water and APPEAR to be sanitizing? Actually, the kids themselves don't care. As a parent, I care. Perhaps it's my OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) that's the real problem here ....
Oh - and I personally don't ever play these whistles. They are merely to be lent out to students or tried at the petting zoo. So in that sense, I don't really care what germs fester in them for the next 200 years.
My question is back to - do I appear to "sanitize" (from what I can understand from all the chemist speak is that I will never really have them clean) or not?
Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
To promote our music school, we've set up an instrument petting zoo at some festivals. Kids are drawn to our booth by the instruments we have set out that we let them try.
I am wondering if anyone out there has suggestions for how to clean tin whistle tops. I was using an alchohol swab, but it tastes AWFUL when you put the whistle back in your mouth.
Any other ideas out there?
Thanks!
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by kate-dowling
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Hydrogen peroxide doesn't taste too bad.
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Whiskey, whiskey, katey whiskey!
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
maybe you could have a jar of alcohol and a jar of water. shake the top of the whistle in than the second. That should be fine.
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by Maple
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
There is a gel lotion used at grocery stores for checkers to sanitize their hands before handling groceries. It might be worth a try. I have done school demos and given children the pick while I did the frets for chords. Care is needed of course, but the little kids would light up with enthusiasm. Sounds like an excellent project.
Showdaddydadito: the mental picture of 30 or 40 little kiddies all wanting a "taste" of tinwhistle and progressively getting tipsy is frightening?
Best Wishes
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Mint flavored Listerine, a surgical antiseptic safe for oral use, which, by the way, most (if not all) "drug store" alcohol is not, being intentionally "denatured" to prevent it being consumable, otherwise people could get drunk for a buck the pint of 180 proof. Read the warning label against internal use on your bottle.
Showaddy is right, you should be using whiskey or vodka if you're going to be using alcohol, because it is food grade. This would, I am sure, create a bit of a firestorm, but it is, nonetheless, the proper and safe way to use alcohol as a disinfectant around anything that might get into the mouth, such as on kitchen countertops. . .and whistle fipples.
Don't use a swab, pour some in a glass and soak the whistle top down in it for at least 5 or 6 minutes before handing it over to the next kid. The little buggers insist on taking some time to roll over and die (that would be the germs, not the kids, although I imagine the kids would too).
KFG
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by KFG
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Milton sterilising fluid?
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Yes, Infant Feeding Bottle Steriliser Tablets (IFBST) would also be a good, ummmmm, "solution." I believe Milton is a UK only brand name though. In St. Paul she'd want to look for Sterinova.
KFG
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by KFG
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
That Milton stuff is a kind of bleach... you wouldn't want to splash it on your clothes.
I'd have a good number of whistles, and make sure you've loosened the fipples - then you can take them off, soak them in whiskey for ten minutes, rinse them and bring them back into rotation. I'd go with whiskey rather than Listerine, it'll be cheaper. Besides which, do you want these children to associate Irish music with going to the dentist? No, no, no, it should be an alluring sensory experience - the faint waft of whiskey can surely only add to it...
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by Nell
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
In all seriousness, I've always liked the idea of a musical petting zoo, and giving the kids to truly get the feel of a musical instrument.
In all foolishness, I'd be rather concerned as to the other uses kids could find for tin whistles. For instance, they might find it's really fun to use the non-fipple end to punch holes in their peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Or to see what a tin whistle sounds like if you stick the end in a cup of juice. Or to see if you really _can_ "stick it in your ear."
Was it Utah Phillips who said, "A musical instrument in the hands of a child is like a loaded weapon"?
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by sts
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
". . .make sure you've loosened the fipples - then you can take them off. . ."
I'd be nervous about doing that in any location where there's a liability lawyer within 3000 miles.
"I'd go with whiskey rather than Listerine, it'll be cheaper."
You obviously shop differently than I do. I'm perfectly happy with the $3.00 an economy sized bottle if you buy it on sale house brand "Listerine", but I rather tend to avoid the $3.00 a bottle "whiskey."
". . .it should be an alluring sensory experience - the faint waft of whiskey can surely only add to it... "
Although I tend to agree with this. The PC people are ruining everything. Watch out, the next thing you know they're going to be lobbying for speed limits on dance music to prevent injuries "for the children."
KFG
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by KFG
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
O.K.: you are being serious about the whiskey thing. I'll let the Bart Simpson people know about it in case they need an idea for a future episode. I can just see Bart with a Tinwhistle in each nostril and Homer taking over the whisky swabbing chores.
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
I'm assuming you wouldn't be using your 10-year Bush Mills for this purpose - supermarket whiskey will do for disinfectant! I thought Listerine was quite pricey stuff, but maybe that's here...
Shouldn't the fipples always be loose? (ooh Matron, etc) - how can you tune the whistles, otherwise?
A dozen children blowing randomly on whistles which are all marginally out of tune with each other - this is starting to sound like my idea of hell...
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by Nell
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
From my experience of the sort of state that kids get into at festivals, you want a big vat of boiling washing-up to sterilize THEM before they touch your whistles.
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Ottery: How about Whiskey in the Bathtub while we are at it? I suppose that would encourage a few Homer Simpson type of adults to also join the bathers.
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
I did a workshop at a kindergarten once where I brought instruments from all over the world and played a little on each for the whole class, then opened it up for the kids to try the instruments. It was a fantastic time. I loved it. I hope your zoo / school is a smashing success.
(OK, wrong choice of words - in my experience nothing gets smashed until you turn your back.)
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
KFG - thanks for the listerine idea. Perfect. Of course I know that the alchohol is not for internal usage. What I had been doing was swabbing with the alchohol and then letting it sit in some water. This was effective, I guess, but horrible tasting. I don't believe it was really geing ingested in any way. (Though I am sure to get a comment on the harms ....) Listerine is a much better idea. Thanks. Though Ottery's suggestion is a good one ...
And thanks for the support of the petting zoo. We've gotten a tremendous response from kids and adults through this activity. Nothing smashed yet (knock on wood).
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by kate-dowling
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
"you are being serious about the whiskey thing."
Certainly. The writing on the label slapped on a bottle of alcohol has no mystical effect on the intoxicating properties of its contents. That bottle of "rubbing" alcohol is 180 proof hootch, plain and simple and that bottle of 80 proof "devil whiskey" is less than half as potent.
Nobody is going to get any more intoxicated from a whiskey soaked whistle than they are from a medical alcohol soaked whistle. Especially since it's going to all evaporate off pretty quickly anyway. Listerine, by the way, is 54 proof.
All the word "whiskey" means these days is "A tax has been paid on the contents of this bottle, so we haven't manufactured it in such a way that a couple shots will make even a hard core alky who can't get a buzz off a litre bottle trying to evade the tax puke for a day or so."
Alcohol is the easiest to manufacture, and thus innately cheapest to buy, most effective, as well as safest (aside from the risk of addiction) of the disinfectants. It just happens to be booze as well. Buying it *as* booze, in most places, is the only legal way to obtain it in a grade that is safe to get in your mouth.
But if Kate put up a big sign saying "We're soaking your kid's whistles in Jack Daniels now!" all hell would break loose, even though in translation that would mean "I know you're happy that we're taking care to sterilize the whistles in alcohol, but now we're doing it with a far less powerful intoxicant that hasn't been poisoned, because we care about the health and safty of your kids."
If she puts up a sign saying "We're soaking the whistles in a minty fresh oral antiseptic now" though, people are unlikely to read that as meaning "Man, this sh*t packs twice the punch of wine!"
Even though that's what it says.
And of course I'd bet that if the sign said, "We're using Infant Feeding Bottle Steriliser Tablets to insure your children's safety" it would make even the "chemically sensitive," anti-chlorination of water ecofreaks in the crowd all giddy with joy.
Beats hell out of "Warning! Contains one of the deadliest known poisons in the universe."
It's all about people's perception of what the label means, and not what it actually means.
". . .supermarket whiskey will do for disinfectant! I thought Listerine was quite pricey stuff, but maybe that's here..."
Sure, Listerene (tm) is pricey stuff. House brand "mouthwash"
purchased during a half off sale isn't. Whereas around these parts the base price of even a supermarket whiskey is determined by the *tax*, which is done by volume, not qualtiy, and alone exceeds the price of el cheapo mouthwash.
"A dozen children blowing randomly on whistles which are all marginally out of tune with each other"
You do understand that making the whistles tunable will only result in them being even *more* out of tune with each other as the kids fool around with the whistles, don't you? It will also make almost certain a few fipples get lost, and possibly a choking or two.
And there's no chance in hell of them playing in anything resembling tune in the first place. They're going to toot hell out of those things.
"Was it Utah Phillips who said, "A musical instrument in the hands of a child is like a loaded weapon"?"
I don't recall that one in particular, but yeah, it's the sort of thing he would say.
Want to get even with someone? Give their kids a bodhran as a present (not that I'm implying that it's a musical instrument, but the principle is the same, squared).
". . .you want a big vat of boiling washing-up to sterilize THEM before they touch your whistles."
Good point.
". . .in my experience nothing gets smashed until you turn your back."
In my experience they'll arrange to create a diversion while one or two of them sneak around behind your back to smash something.
". . .but horrible tasting."
In part because the water is ineffective at removing the alcohol's adulterants from the fipples. Alcohol mixes with, washes away with water quite well. You can even put out an alcohol fire with water. One of the most common additives to make medical alcohol unfit for consumption is *kerosene.* You don't want to try to put out a kerosene fire with water, and water won't be effective in rinsing it off the fipples, even with wiping. If you just let it sit out in the open air it wouldnt take long for alcohol to simply evaporate away (which is why it is used for a topical coolant), but the keresene will be left behind as a micro film (I light with kerosene in my home, Stuff's a bitch to clean up if you spill a bit of it, which is why it is often rubbed on ferrous metals as a preservative. Even when the volatiles evaporate off a microfilm of parrafin wax is left behind).
Yeah, I know, there really isn't enough of a residue to make the small amount that might get on some kid's lips a real health issue, the dose makes the poison, but it is an issue that exists.
And I don't think a big sign over your disinfectant glass that says "Warning! May contain kerosene" would go over very well.
KFG
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by KFG
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
>Want to get even with someone? Give their kids a bodhran as a present (not that I'm implying that it's a musical instrument, but the principle is the same, squared).
I sometimes wear a button that says:
"If thine enemy offend thee
give his child a drum"
It brings me no end of compliments.
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by sts
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
I would strongly advise against using medical alcohol on its own, so do rinse it off with water afterwards. If it is the same stuff as we use in the lab - IMS - Industrial Methylated Spirit, it will contain a few percent of methanol. During its metabolism, methanol is converted to formaldehyde the same stuff as formalin which is used to pickle corpses and as a fixative. That's why alkies who drink meth. spirits go blind and and can suffer brain damage and even die. I guess the amount of methanol which a child would have imbibed from one of your whistles would be negligible but you don't want to have *any* as a risk factor. IMS and meth. spirit in the UK I don't think contains kerosene, but to make it unpalatable there is some additive, I can't mind what..... but the reason itis rendered unpalatable is because of the methanol content.
Could you use TCP, or some other disinfectant, then rinse that of with water?
Incidentally, and a curious aside, the hospital treatment for someone admitted from meth. spirit intoxication is to ply them with alcoholic beverage constantly for about a week!
The enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase will preferentially degrade ethanol ("normal" alcohol, if you like) rather than methanol. So it takes several days for the undegraded methanol to be eliminated from the body non-enzymatic means, ie in your pee, via sweat glands and exhaled from the lungs.
But neither is that a strategy I would recommend for going on a free bender for a week!
# Posted on March 14th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Now for an additional challenge--how would you disinfect a good old wooden fipple whistle? Without swelling the fipple to the point of worthlessness that is!
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Knew I'd get a very detailed list of what's wrong with rubbing alchohol ....
So how about setting them in mouthwash for five mins then rinsing in water?
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by kate-dowling
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
"I would strongly advise against using medical alcohol on its own, so do rinse it off with water afterwards. If it is the same stuff as we use in the lab - IMS - Industrial Methylated Spirit, it will contain a few percent of methanol."
You can get this over here, but what you'll generally find in the little bottles on the drugstore shelves is isopropyl alcohol, itself a bit unpalatable and which metabolizes to acetone, but yes, methanol is another common adulterant, as is ethylene glycol.
There are actually a couple of dozen or so formulas for IMS (over here that most commonly means Indianapolis Motor Speedway though
), for different intended uses; the most common of which available over the counter as an antiseptic will either contain .5% methanol and 2% kerosene/petrol, or .5% methanol and 1% carbolic crystals, but a 2% methanol formula is available and commonly used in hospitals and as an industrial disinfectant.
In any case, no matter the formula, the stuff is intentionally made to taste bad and give a toxic reaction to discourage people from drinking it, and national laws generally prohibit its use in any situation that will intentionally introduce it into the mouth.
Better to be safe than sorry, if only to avoid the lawyers.
"Could you use TCP. . "
A UK brand name for a Pfizer (makers of Listerene) product. We don't get that. We get Listerene.
"So how about setting them in mouthwash for five mins then rinsing in water?"
That's what TCP is (as well as a topical antiseptic, same as Listerene. Pfizer doesn't seem to like to market general use products over here though, prefering to make the customer think he needs a different brand product for different kinds of disinfecting).
". . .how would you disinfect a good old wooden fipple whistle?"
Basically, you wouldn't. That's one of the problems with wood and why you'll see stainless steel countertops in restaurants, and they don't even have to deal with the swelling issue. Bacteria can live for years deep in the grain of wood, especially in a warm damp wood, like you'll find in a wind instrument. You apply whatever disinfectant suits your fancy to the surface as best you can, and take your chances.
The risks are really much lower than the TV ads would have you believe, but if you want to be afraid of something be afraid of doorknobs and money.
Lewis Thomas has written a couple of really great essays for the New England Journal of Medicine (reprinted in the book A Long Line of Cells) on how the drug companies have fostered an unneeded, and even detrimental, paranoia about bacteria (with the unwitting aid of the populace themselves, who seem to have a need for boogeymen). They're all over you, right now. You probably won't get sick or nothin' and if you do, you'll probably get better without any treatment whatsoever.
KFG
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Wait a minute - KFG - you're off on one again without knowing the facts. Methanol is not *used* as an adulterant. Methanol is a bi-product of cheap industrial alcohol production, ie not done by yeast but as an industrial catalytic process. The adulterants are, as you say, and which I had said before you, to stop people supping it.
And, incidentally, 70% IMS is more effective than Absolute IMS, because 70% IMS has more osmotic effect, and thus bacterial cells undergo more complete lysis when exposed to 70% IMS.
The main problem wouldn't be bacteria anyway but the 200+ forms of virus which produce symptoms of the common cold. Again, 70% is most effective.
Bacteria can live for years deep in the grains of wood....
Well, maybe cultures will survive if they are sufficiently maintained at high humidity. But more likely the have the faculty to sporulate...ie become spores. Again, it's the risk of already extant opportunistic commensals, and not the obligate anaerobes who are more likely to inhabit grains of wood for decade upon decade.
Please contribute only when you know what you're talking about.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
When our child was in elementary school, we did a similar "petting zoo" with both instruments and shoes. Of course, the kids couldn't try out the shoes (their feet were a little small) but we were able to arrange to have all kinds of dancers come to the school to visit classrooms, show their stuff, and talk to the kids about dancing. This was enormously popular. Trying out musical instruments was okay, but dancing really got a response from kids. They loved the sound of step dancing in hard shoes, as well as clogging in wooden shoes from England. Really great fun for everyone involved. Good luck Kate-Dowling
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
"Methanol is a bi-product of cheap industrial alcohol production, ie not done by yeast but as an industrial catalytic process. "
A strawman, but. . .
The vast majority of the world's methanol is produced catalytically from natural gas, because this is cheaper than the destructive distillation of wood, or coal to produce gas to produce methanol. Yes, I am aware of this. It affects my pocketbook directly, currently in the adverse as methanol production has been cut back, driving the price up.
"Methanol is not *used* as an adulterant."
The resultant methanol is added to ethanol, produced by fermentation, as a denaturant, an adulterant, as is petrol, kerosene and a number of other chemicals, intentionally, to stop people supping it. ( I realize you "ignore" and "don't read" my posts, so you may be excused for not knowing I had already brought that up and how it affects the price of the alcohol, although you seem to have odd definitions of "ignore" and "don't read." )
In other words, it is *used* as an adulterant. All you have to do is type "methanol+adulterant" into Google to confirm it, or look up "denatured alcohol" at Wikipedia.
If you're going to persist in attacking me you might want to reconsider your stated practice of "ignoring" and "not reading" my posts. It will allow you to respond to things I've actually said instead of making them up in your rush to abuse the "wententious pranker"; and keep you from looking silly in the process.
In addition to its use as an adulterant it is also used as a solvent and a fuel, which is how it affects my pocketbook.
". . .because 70% IMS has more osmotic effect"
As does diluted honey (through the production of hydrogen peroxide), although it still remains sticky, the chief downfall of honey used as an antibacterial agent.
"Well, maybe cultures will survive if they are sufficiently maintained at high humidity."
Such as you are likely to find around a kitchen countertop and in a well played wind instrument, yes, I mentioned that too. I don't think it would be a big deal in a fiddle, they're typically too dry, but then I don't typically suck on my fiddle, let alone somebody else's (and I'm not prepared to discuss my atypical behavior in this regard in public. I handle fiddles though. I think I can admit that in public, so long as I don't go into too much detail.)
I don't think it would be a big deal in a wind instrument that hadn't been played for a long time either, and I've never felt any particular trepidation about playing same, but then that doesn't exactly describe the conditions under discussion.
"The main problem wouldn't be bacteria anyway but the 200+ forms of virus which produce symptoms of the common cold."
Possible, but disputable, and you'd really have to sterilize the entire whistle to deal with it effectively.
". . it's the risk of already extant opportunistic commensals, and not the obligate anaerobes who are more likely to inhabit grains of wood for decade upon decade."
Well, although I know what all the words mean I don't find this statement entirely grammatically clear. You can try to restate it if you wish, or simply acknowledge that it's a strawman injected into the discussion to display your feeling of superior knowledge of the subject and be done with it.
"Please contribute only when you know what you're talking about."
You might have considered that advice yourself before going off about the meaning of the word "quintessentially, but in any case I'm afraid I shall post as I please, as shall you, n'est ce pas?
Although for everyone's benefit you might wish to at least consider apopting a more conventional definition of "ignore" and "don't read." It's the strategy that will result in the greatest happiness for all. "All" would include you I would think, unless you're pursuing your current course of verbal assault for pleasure, in which case YMMV, but you might wish to think of the children.
KFG
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
the petting zoo idea's great. if it hadn't been for one of them i would never have had the idea of playing irish music, although I do apologise to the guy who let me loos on his fiddle all those years ago.
Anders
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by weefreefidler
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
". . .although I do apologise to the guy who let me loos on his fiddle all those years ago."
Ah, so you "handle" fiddles at "petting zoos" too, eh? We might need to get together and form a support group.
KFG
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
Yes, we have whistles, a flute, a fiddle and a concertina.
All this chemical talk - - - so, do I NOT sanitize the whistles? Just dip them in water and APPEAR to be sanitizing? Actually, the kids themselves don't care. As a parent, I care. Perhaps it's my OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) that's the real problem here ....
Oh - and I personally don't ever play these whistles. They are merely to be lent out to students or tried at the petting zoo. So in that sense, I don't really care what germs fester in them for the next 200 years.
My question is back to - do I appear to "sanitize" (from what I can understand from all the chemist speak is that I will never really have them clean) or not?
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by kate-dowling
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
By-products...oh yes! By the end of the petting sessions the proof [and safety of the water should have improved!]
Reminds me of a lovely, very rich lady in Somerset, England, whose extensive flower, fruit, and veg gardens were my brief.
She was given over to making her own delicacies eg damson gin!
One day the greeting was "My dear Brian ,I've made my damson gin, would you please take the damsons to the compost heap?"
"Certainly Mrs L! I'll do that straight away!"
Those damsons were the MOST brilliant dessert! Believe me!
Brianx
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Instrument Petting Zoo - sanitizing tin whistles
No worries, I won't lose any sleep over it. I enjoy tormenting certain individuals whether what I said is true or not.
:~}
Kate - sorry about the "debate" - the answer I think you want is use a disinfectant, then clean that off with water.
# Posted on March 15th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad